Pull down on the seams with your fingers as you release the pitch? That sure is revolutionary. I mean, nobody has ever tried that while throwing a baseball before, have they? Pronate on release? Anyone who's ever wathced high speed film of anybody throwing any pitch knows that the wrist always pronates on release. Ture gyroscopic spin? Here's a clue for you -- a baseball *can't* spin like a gyroscope, because it can only spin around one axis. Now, if you could somehow get the core of the baseball to spin one way while the rest of the ball was spinning another way, then you'd have a gyroscope. But an internal gyroscope would act to dampen the ball's movement rather than exaggerate it, right?

It's a freakin' slider. Then you mess with the grip to change the speed and movement without changing your arm speed or arm slot. Pitchers have been doing this for about 100 years.

I dunno, but replace the name Will Carroll with practically anyone else, and I have a lot more faith in the results. That may just be me though.

Interesting piece. Ignoratio has a good point - the pitch does sound very much like a slider, with slight alterations. Then again, a cutter isn't really a "new" pitch per se, but a variation on an existing pitch, and that's had a pretty big impact on the game.

He did lose me with the rant at the end - "It is foolish to believe that we know everything there is to know about baseball, that raw velocity is king, and that no other country will catch up to us in the future." Not really sure how the existence of a possibly-new pitch leads to a tear in the time-space continuum of baseball.

Likewise the split finger wasn't really a new pitch. It was just a forkball, but it's thrown as a power pitch, whereas the forkball was more of a change-up, and the split finger has certainly had a big impact. I'm still skeptical though. As others have said it sounds like a slider. That bit about throwing it like a football is what makes me think that.

Will also showed me the book of the gyroball, literally translated to mean "Original Form of the Demon Ball."

Gah! Gah!

Literally translated it means "The Truth of the Magic Pitch", or at most literal "Magic Ball's True Form"! In no way can ? mean "demon"! In no way can ? mean "original"! Jesus! In the words of Bill James, the freakin' amateurs need to clear the floor.

And I still can't believe after all this time Carroll still hasn't found someone to do a decent translation. Despite what this fellow says, the book would not be difficult to translate; it's targeted at a lay audience. The physics involved, at the worst, are no worse than Adair's book, and wouldn't even need a specialist in physics translations. Just an on-the-ball guy who knows how to research.

I gave a heads-up over there to let folks know it was also being discussed here. Hopefully that will add to the discussion on both sides.

Man, this is a slider, at least as described here. The first time I got someone to show me how to throw a slider, back in the late 70's, this is exactly how it was taught. hold it like a football, make sure you have 2 fingers on the seams and your thumb opposite, pull down when you throw. I still will describe it that way, 25 years later.

And that dot the author claims is unique? That's been the hallmark of a good slider forever, the smaller the dot the sharper and tighter the break.

You know, the slider really is a good pitch. I'd guess after the fastball, it's the best pitch.

Something like this, I think should have either pics of the author gripping the ball or video of the results. I try not to be a multimedia snob, but no amount of description in this way can convey that much information.

Are you guys sure the book isn't translated Americans can suck my Gyroball?

I can't believe I'm going to say this. I'm a girl and I never played baseball but I've been around it a lot, so take this for what it's worth -- there's no way that's a slider. If you won't take it from me, take it from the best slider in history according to my dad (who played pro ball).

http://www.carlton32.com/slider.html

Just look at the grip there from Steve Carlton and tell me that looks anything like throwing a football. Look at how he trains the pitch and how he releases the pitch. If you've ever seen Carlton pitch, you know how it moved. My dad said it was "swing at the hip, miss in the dirt."

What Carroll has is a myth. Matsuzaka said in two articles that he doesn't throw it. It's not a slider, it's not a cutter, it's ######## that Carroll's trying to sell, like everything else at BPro.

What Carroll has is a myth. Matsuzaka said in two articles that he doesn't throw it.

Matsuzaka's gyroball is a myth. The gyroball, itself, though, I'm reserving judgment on.

I checked out Carlton's website, Jessex, and it almost looks like his "slider" is closer to what contemporary pitchers would call a cutter, no?

After three or four seasons of supposedly throwing a great cutter that he learned from Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte finally started telling reporters that it really was a slider. Part of my point in the first post -- the "messing with the grip" part -- was that pitchers don't all throw the same pitch in the same way. CBW pointed out in one of his Bullpen Mechanics pieces that the two seam grip really doesn't have a lot to do with making a sinker sink -- you can throw a sinker with any grip you want if you get the right spin by getting inside the baseball and over-pronating on release. I'm also sure that what I just wrote will sound more like a description of throwing a cutter to a lot of people. That's because there's a pretty fine line between the two pitches.

It's a freakin' slider. Then you mess with the grip to change the speed and movement without changing your arm speed or arm slot. Pitchers have been doing this for about 100 years.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Check out this guide to different pitches - you'll notice in the pictures and description of the slider that the seams of the ball, as seen by a batter, will spin from about 4 o'clock to 10 o'clock, with the axis being around 1 o'clock and tilted slightly toward the batter. The rotation axis for a gyro is at the center of the ball facing the batter. Also, the slider is gripped somewhat on top of the ball, and the hand goes back and down as it is thrown. A gyro is gripped completely on the side like a football, with the hand coming straight down upon delivery to produce the spiral-like spin. It is most certainly not a slider.

Does it matter? If it moves like a slider, it's a slider. Call it a Primerball if you want. If you throw like this poof, it's going about a thousand feet.

BosoxBob, he's not wrong. As several people have mentioned, different pitchers throw the same pitch in different ways. If you take the slider illustrated in your link and turn the hand position slightly, you still have a slider. It just breaks on a different plane.

What is shown in that illustration is much more of a cutter, it is far more common to throw the slider from the side as opposed to on top.

That's a cool link though.

KNUCKLEBALL
Also known as: Knuckler, dancer, various expletives.

Made me laugh.

Does it matter? If it moves like a slider, it's a slider.

But it doesn't move like a slider, or rather not all variations of the pitch do. I suggest you read my post in that thread about the different types of gyroballs, or you can read this paper by a physics professor which has a more detailed explanation.

FYI - my linked post also points out one of the biggest problems concerning the gyro, namely that there is a lot of misinformation out there about it. Some stories indicate that the pitch is thrown by snapping the hand over the top of the ball to the inside (similar to a screwball), and that the pitch will break drastically to the left in a horizontal plane. Neither of these things is true, which only lends fuel to those who claim that the gyro is a myth.

But it doesn't move like a slider, or rather not all variations of the pitch do.

Different people's sliders don't all move the same. Nor do curves, cutters, sinkers, or for that matter, fastballs. This is because pitchers don't simply learn pitches from a textbook or a website. They experiment and use what works.

You're right that there's a ton of misinformation about the gyroball out there, and if you want to believe that you're correcting it rather than adding to it, fine. But if this is all a gyro is, then I was throwing one in HS more than 30 years ago.

Let me ask you a simple question: if you and I throw pitches at exactly the same speed with exactly the same spin and they move exactly the same way, but we do so by using different grips and arm actions, are we throwing the same pitch or not?