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1. ursus arctos Posted: August 16, 2010 at 10:02 PM (#3617582)But I just can't help it.
You know, the Mets may just be able to avoid PAYING KRod for any time he misses due to this... if they have the balls to do it and fight the union
It isn't like being injured while engaged in an activity that is expressly barred by one's contract (like skiing, or riding a motorcycle without a helmet).
And as discussed on another thread, it's hard for me to see a "moral turpitude"-based attempt to void the contract grounded in a misdemeanor surviving the union's challenge.
It's been two decades of headcases, comical failures and blowouts on and off the field.
It isn't like being injured while engaged in an activity that is expressly barred by one's contract (like skiing, or riding a motorcycle without a helmet).
And as discussed on another thread, it's hard for me to see a "moral turpitude"-based attempt to void the contract grounded in a misdemeanor surviving challenge.
I don't know. Assuming there is no question as to causation -- that he did indeed hurt himself in the assault -- if he is found or pleads guilty to the assault, I suspect the Mets would have a pretty decent case. This is not a situation where he got hurt doing something neutral; this is a case where he got hurt doing something criminal. Yes, just a misdemeanor, so they won't be able to void his contract or anything. But if all they seek is to not pay him for the time he actually misses due to the injury (i.e., the rest of the season)? That strikes me as a case that the union would have to be very nervous about -- would they really be comfortable with this case setting a precedent on this issue?
Did the Yankees have to pay out Brien Taylor's contract after his barroom brawl? (Did Taylor instigate the brawl? I don't recall the details.)
Of course, the Yankees had every reason to keep Taylor on in the hopes he's be useful someday. The Mets have millions of dollars at stake should they be able to get out from under part/all of K-Rod's contract, so it's very much in their interest to take this very, very far in court/arbitration, should it come to that.
This is hysterical, though.
I don't think this incident is made up to make him go away, Vaux, there's no way they want him to go away THAT much.
Honestly, things are now so insane, a run where we somehow make the playoffs fits right in.
Right?
Seriously! Who would punch their father in law with their pitching hand???
What are the relevant provisions of the uniform players contract?
Making up 8 games for the wild card and jumping over five teams in six weeks? Making up 10 games in the division and beating out two teams?
I don't think the '86 Mets could do it. And the franchise has already had its Miracle.
BPro gives them a 1% chance to make the playoffs. That seems about right.
Supposed to kick him with your cleats, right?
There's some justice there -- his own idiocy costs him the vesting option on his contract. Nice going, K-Rod.
I believe draft signees are paid the standard minor league salary but negotiate the signing bonus. If my understanding is correct then Taylor would be entitled to the signing bonus no matter what happened afterwards (because it's already "earned").
yes and yes:
Recent Mets closer history:
1: Franco gets old and injury prone,a replacement is sought-
2; Armando Benitez is acquired, not a fully established closer- he'd been erratic with Baltimore, considered to have a million dollar arm and a 10 cent head with Baltimore- has some highly effective regular seasons with the Mets, some hi-profile post seasons and pennant drive failures
3: a few months later Billy Taylor is acquired in case Benitez didn't work out- Mets trade Jason Isringhausen to get Taylor, Taylor vaporises, Izzy becomes effective closer for other teams
4: A few years later Benitez gets traded to the Yankees for pocket lint... a year later is brilliant for Florida...
5: Mets "need" a closer, sign Braden Looper, seem puzzled by his mediocrity
6: Omar's reign, none of this unestablished closer/ proven mediocrity stuff- he wants an elite guy, signs Wagner, after Wagner implodes hires KRod, in both instances the Mets (i) overpaid; (ii)got pretty much what they should have expected; (iii) got less than they expected
Also, during this time the Mets gave away Izzy for nothing, and he'd wrack up 293 saves; gave up Octavio Dotel as a trade throw-in; trade away Heath Bell for a six pack and a commemorative cork screw; traded away Wheeler for less than nothing, traded for JJ Putz- while hurt- for 1 year, and insisted that he pitch while hurt-
and oh, then there was the discovery that Dave Weathers could close games- a discovery that shocked them so much they stopped, waited awhile and then traded him for the immortal Ricardo Hidalgo...
He's not a closer, but the Mets had Darren Oliver when oliver actually became GOOD, they let him go because they thought it was a fluke- a reasonable belief at the time- except the Mets NEVER think anyone else's unexpectedly good performance is a fluke- just oliver's - and it wasn't.
The Met closer philosophy is this:
Always get SOMEONE ELSE'S closer, if at some point do to injury or whatnot you have to utilize some9one else- a non-closer as closer- remove him from the role at the first sign of failure, and trade him at the first opportunity so you won't be tempted to try it again.
This is very interesting - Keith and Gary are throwing the entire team under the bus with their language. The team is falling apart, everyone's a disaster, not even a small nod to the fact that they spent time in first place not that long ago. Somewhat odd, really. They could easily not whitewash K-Rod one bit, completely lambaste him without just dismissing everyone equally with 45 games left.
Granted, we're sucking, but a lot of real dismissive stuff from our guys,
There are restrictions of how a player injuries himself, I would think criminal activity should be in there as a standard thing, but maybe not.
I'll be leading the charge.
contract with Baltimore terminated 9/05 (placed on unconditional release waivers, grievance pending)
He was owed $10 million in 2006. Apparently he and the Orioles settled in late 2008.
It's been two decades of headcases, comical failures and blowouts on and off the field.
The Mets have a long history of thinking their very good closers are actually bad because they blow an occasional save. To be fair, their closers tend to "make things interesting". But Benitez had a 2.70 ERA, 160 saves, and an 18-14 record with the Mets. 456 K in 347 IP.
EDIT: Hey! Stop editing posts after I respond to them!
Twice, at that.
Yeppers, mainly because they aren't legitimate, it's never about the moral conduct, but about the on-field worth and everyone knows this.
Cervelli is 0-2 and in danger -- grave danger -- of seeing his SLG drop below .300.
Why did Pena replace ARod? Injury?
lol
I'm actually not convinced this would have happened in Los Angeles of Anaheim.
And -- credit where it's due -- Fuentes has turned things around of late. He's only given up one run since June 20, a span of 19 innings. He did blow one save in that time, in an inherited runner situation, but has 12 saves and a win in that period.
Of course, he had a similar span of 17 innings in June and July of last year, then went two straight outings where he allowed a combined 6 runs without retiring a batter, and then had a strikeout-to-walk count of 9-to-11 for the rest of the season.
He is what he is. He's okay.
As will I! On behalf of the Red Sox, I will gladly trade 1 year of Papelbon for Wright's contract.
Now, how can we convince Omar this is THE MOVE he MUST make?
The Mets have this problem a lot.
Can you imagine how good this team would be with a good GM? Who was the last really good GM they had? Cashen? Can you imagine if they'd had, say, Pat Gillick in his Mariners period?
But I just can't help it.
Me too! It totally serves him right, the d-bag.
Cervelli is 0-2 and in danger -- grave danger
Is there another kind?
Hell, I'd trade Papelbon for KRod's contract.
In an otherwise dead-on post, this is simply incorrect. Dotel was traded with Roger Cedeno and an actual throw-in (Kyle Kessel) to the Astros for Mike Hampton and Operation Shutdown himself. Cedeno was coming off his career (and never again to be approached) year (.396 OBP, 66 SBs), but Dotel was 25 and threw high-octane gas. That trade, which led directly to the Mets' first World Series berth in 14 years, never would have happened without him being included.
Yes.
Because his Blue Jays period, or his Orioles period, or his Phillies periods were bad?
You could take any period from Gillick's career and be pretty damn happy with the results.
Hi there.
Steve Olin was the closer in '92. Died the next spring.
Jerry DiPoto was the closer in '93. Was diagnosed with cancer the next season.
Jeff Russell led the 1994 Indians in saves. With FIVE.
Mesa was great in '95-'96. Then he blew the save in Game Seven of the '97 WS.
No complaints about Jackson. He was the lone bright spot in recent Cleveland closer history.
Wickman came over in 2000, pitched great for a year and a half, then his elbow exploded.
Danys Baez was Danys Baez.
Jose Jimenez was brought in to be the closer in '04. Went 1-7 with an 8.42 ERA.
Wickman got traded in 2006. They gave the job to Fausto Carmona, who went 0-3 with three blown saves and a 37.80 ERA as the closer.
Next was Joe Borowski. 5.57 ERA (81 ERA+) as an Indian.
2008 was an entire decade of failed closers in about three months: Borowski, Masa Kobayashi, Betancourt, Rafael Perez. All failed miserably before Jensen Lewis got the job by default. Lewis has since been DFA'ed.
Then they brought in Kerry Wood. Two years, $20.5M. ERA+ around 90.
So, um, yeah. It could be worse.
THIS THIS THIS dead-on THIS. I've called it the "Armando Benitez Fallacy" in my head for several years. The argument goes "he's good but he fails in big situations". The problem is that EVERY situation in New York is a "big" situation. For the Mets, there's never such a thing as "baseball happens, well we'll get them tomorrow" after a blown save. Every run given up by the bullpen is a fresh apocalypse for the likes of Lupica and Francesa. Benitez had it even worse since his blown saves tended to come from giving up HR, which appear to sportspundits to be an even bigger C*H*O*K*E but really aren't any different than giving up a run by walk-steal-dinky single. Never mind that the guy strikes out 12 K / 9 IP.
I've wondered for many years how Mariano Rivera across town never got that kind of reputation, and 2001 Game 7 is pretty much forgotten when discussing his career. I think the answer is that the World Series wins early in his career already wrote the narrative of him as a Winner and not a Choker, plus his manager could always step up and take heat, rarely being on a hot seat himself unlike Mets managers in perpetuity. Papelbon in Boston kind of splits the difference, sometimes he's seen as a choker headcase, but the 2007 title and Francona's stability keep him from being run out of town.
And yes, the Mets closer position since Benitez has had a lot of turnover, but is that really that unusual in MLB? Don't most teams change closers every few years or so?
I agree. Never understood why so much hatred was directed at Benitez, while Franco always seemed to be given a free pass.
Wagner has been locking it down for the Braves this season. The Mets seemed in a huge hurry to get him out the door. I suspect we're going to see the same with K-Rod, but for a much longer timeperiod. Baseball (and sports more generally) tends to forgive players with talent, and K-Rod has been very, very good this year. I wonder who'll close for them next year. Trying to think of the last home-grown closer the team has used; Dotel and Heilman were slated for the role before they got dealt. Parnell seems close to being that guy, but it seems like he just gives up too many hits.
This is all part of a larger problem of blaming your best players for your struggles. People seem to be down on K-Rod (before this incident) and Santana despite the fact that both have been pretty stellar this year.
In an otherwise dead-on post, this is simply incorrect. Dotel was traded with Roger Cedeno and an actual throw-in (Kyle Kessel) to the Astros for Mike Hampton and Operation Shutdown himself. Cedeno was coming off his career (and never again to be approached) year (.396 OBP, 66 SBs), but Dotel was 25 and threw high-octane gas. That trade, which led directly to the Mets' first World Series berth in 14 years, never would have happened without him being included.
Absolutely. Losing Dotel hurt worse than losing Cedeno; Dotel was at the point where they could've used him as a starter or reliever (IIRC) and he had huge potential in either role.
Being the best closer of all time, winning 3 World Series in your first 4 years in the role, and throwing 30 consecutive scoreless postseason innings will tend to have that effect.
Really, if the Mets had even won 1 WS when Benitez was there he would be remembered much differently.
Also, Mariano Rivera never had gout.
And the Mutts hated on him, but point taken, getting Dotel as opposed to another arm may have been key to the Astros, but we were never going to find out if the Stros would have taken someone else since the Mutts wanted Dotel gone- to them Dotel was the same thing that Heath Bell was later...
Stand Pat has had an interesting career. I know that he comes by that moniker easily, but he's a great choice to contrast GM styles with what the Mets have had over the years. Roster churn != progress.
Of course it could be worse, the Mets on the whole have not actually gotten bad performances from their pen (except 2008- 2nd half the pen really was objectively bad)- but the Mets and their fans always think the pen sucks- to the point of irrationality- to the point of ACTING on that belief.
They decided they had to dump the salary, with Rodriguez already being overpaid to close and JJ Putz's blown elbow also on the books. Wagner would have been pitching the 8th inning, which is so much less important than the 9th inning and you can't pay a closer's salary to somebody not earning Saves.
Google is hilarious:
"Searches related to jj putz
jj putz injury jj putz pronunciation"
Memory is fallible, I guess, but I really don't recall this at all. Dotel was BA's #45 prospect in all of baseball that year and had averaged 10 Ks per 9 IP throughout the minors. His MLB debut in the second half of 1999 was rocky (5.38 ERA and 1.38 WHIP, although he was the winning pitcher in Game 5 of the NLCS), but he still posted a K per IP. My recollection is that the fan base and management were very excited about him and disappointed that he became a necessary piece in the Hampton trade.
I understand that. But with how hurried they were to get rid of him, it seemed like they thought he'd be toast for his career.
The Putz deal, what a freaking trainwreck on all sides...from Putz to Endy to Reed to Carp (really tanked in the PCL this year), I don't think anyone involved in the deal has actually played well...
I also disagree with this. Dotel was a damn good prospect that had a rocky 3-month introduction to the major leagues. He had a lot of value and the Mets never did anything to indicate that they "wanted him gone." Phillips had a youngsters-for-veterans trade on the table and he predictably jumped on it.
There was absolutely no similarity with the Heath Bell situation. Hell, he wasn't even a reliever yet at this point.
1997 was on him too, no?
And I disagree with this. As has been pointed out a bunch of times in the last week, the Mets' core, Reyes/Wright/Beltran/Santana, is really badly underperforming as a whole. In 2007 and 2008 the Mets were reminiscent of the late 90s Mariners with extreme star power and a crazy inability to make the playoffs due to poor complimentary players. That's not really what's happening anymore. The Mets' stars are now barely all-stars and in this year in particular three of the most valuable players have been the 4th outfielder and the 5th and 6th starters. "Bay is overpaid badly declining veteran" may have been the year's most predictable storyline, but his addition was still nothing if not judicious.
Of course, if they could replace Castillo/Barajas/Francouer with players that were just mediocre, and not horrifying, they would be in much better shape. But almost every team in baseball has such complaints, even ones with good managers and GMs.
Manuel is a dolt but most managers are and he's not draining handfuls of wins off the ledger.
I also disagree with this. Dotel was a damn good prospect that had a rocky 3-month introduction to the major leagues. He had a lot of value and the Mets never did anything to indicate that they "wanted him gone."
I thought there was a bit of Heilman, in that Dotel wanted to be a starter too, and maybe management was mixed on that front.
Rk Player WAR OPS+ SV WHIP SO/BB ERA+ H/9 G From To1 Mariano Rivera 9.7 26 107 0.764 7.40 296 5.62 174 2008 2010
2 Joakim Soria 8.6 55 105 1.028 3.92 226 6.70 159 2008 2010
3 Jonathan Papelbon 7.0 55 108 1.074 3.83 192 7.18 182 2008 2010
4 Matt Thornton 6.9 50 10 1.045 4.20 174 6.79 193 2008 2010
5 Joe Nathan 6.8 43 86 0.917 4.08 251 5.61 138 2008 2009
6 Andrew Bailey 5.8 34 46 0.914 3.43 246 5.68 106 2009 2010
7 Carlos Marmol 5.8 47 43 1.190 2.16 155 4.83 215 2008 2010
8 Francisco Rodriguez 5.6 70 122 1.255 2.33 154 6.97 199 2008 2010
9 Scott Downs 5.6 65 14 1.129 2.76 185 7.44 166 2008 2010
10 Brad Ziegler 5.2 91 18 1.366 1.61 168 8.71 165 2008 2010
11 Darren Oliver 5.1 71 1 1.120 3.34 165 7.76 166 2008 2010
12 Heath Bell 4.7 73 77 1.179 2.96 133 7.31 193 2008 2010
13 Hong-Chih Kuo 4.7 48 5 0.991 3.75 191 6.09 117 2008 2010
14 Jose Valverde 4.5 71 92 1.148 2.62 147 6.64 176 2008 2010
15 Arthur Rhodes 4.4 51 2 1.068 2.47 211 6.16 182 2008 2010
Wagner's contract was expiring. He proclaimed loudly that he would only sign somewhere that he could earn saves, which wasn't the Mets of course with K-Rod there. So he was of no use to the Mets regardless of his career toastiness, and there wasn't any pennant run in 2009 to keep him for. So it was a case of unloading him for whatever they could get instead of nothing, and in the process also saving the remainder of his 2009 salary. (Taking a comp draft pick probably didn't cross Omar's mind, or else they were scared he might accept the arbitration and get overpaid.) It was trade deadline day so they had to rush.
There was absolutely no similarity with the Heath Bell situation. Hell, he wasn't even a reliever yet at this point.
That's my recollection as well. Dotel was a highly valued part of the organization. There were concerns over which role he'd be best in, but this wasn't a situation where the management had no confidence in him.
Of course, if they could replace Castillo/Barajas/Francouer with players that were just mediocre, and not horrifying, they would be in much better shape. But almost every team in baseball has such complaints, even ones with good managers and GMs.
That's precisely the point- had they grabbed Torrealba at C and Hudson or Lopez to man 2B, they'd be a lot better off right now. Omar wasted so much damn time chasing his white whale Benji Molina, who isn't really that good to begin with, that he had to scramble for what was left at the end. He just seems to have a preference for the wrong types of players.
The point was made several times over the winter- $2M on Cora, $5 M on Frenchy, whatever they're paying Tatis, all of that adds up to a real player. Anderson Hernandez instead of Cora would get you the same thing. Random AAA guy instead of Frenchy gets you similar performance. The Mets are just wasting a lot of money on players who don't contribute.
I understand that. Again, they made it sound like he was toast. Acquiring K-Rod sent a similar message. If they wanted a short-term fix and planned to retain Wagner, they could have just dealt for Putz.
Not saying it was a bad move, just that I didn't see Wagner becoming this good again, certainly didn't see him outperforming K-Rod at this point in their careers. Did you?
Well done on their part.
No, of course not. Also remember that Wagner came back from injury faster than anticipated - he was expected to miss all of 2009 (so we signed K-rod) but then made it back in July. So the Mets had a pretty tight timeline to get whatever value they could out of him. For all the rest of the team's questionable reliever decisions, the disposal of Wagner actually made sense. Nobody knew if he was toast or not, but the Mets didn't have the time or need to find out with K-rod on board.
Torrealba simply isn't a fair suggestion. He's a generally crappy player having a fluke season.
I don't think anyone could reasonably predict that Torrealba would have the year he's having. Barajas has an 82 OPS+ in 2010, which is better than Torrealba's 2004-2008 seasons and a little worse than his 2009 season. If you prefer WAR, Barajas was better in 2008 and 2009.
OPS+ puts too much weight on Barajas's slugging. This is a guy with a .282 lifetime OB%. Torrealba's at .322 for his career. They're different players; Torrealba was more suited to help address one of the key weaknesses for the Mets going into the season, whereas Barajas is too much like Francouer.
You're also making it sound like Torrealba's 2010 came out of nowhere- after hitting .291/.351/.380 last year, he's hitting .305/.375/.395. The big difference is he went from Colorado to San Diego. What he's doing this year is reasonable given what he did last year. And he's doing it for $750K. Omar identified the wrong type of player when looking for a new catcher this year, first with Molina then with Barajas, who is basically Molina Lite.
Wagner didn't come back in July of last year; his first game back was August 20. He last pitched on August 2 of 2008; is coming back in a little over 12 months really that much earlier than expected?
It doesn't really change the point, if anything it makes it stronger; the Mets had 11 days from when he came back until the deadline to make a deal and get him on someones playoff roster.
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