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Friday, December 07, 2012

Andre Dawson says Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens don’t belong in Hall of Fame

Expert advice you need to solve those pesky lawn problems…WEED THEM OUT!

“I can’t say how the voters are going to react in the years ahead but they wouldn’t get my vote for the simple reason that the rules were broken,” Dawson, a Marlins special assistant, told me earlier this week at the baseball winter meetings in Nashville.

“One of the criteria is integrity of the game and I think that was broken. There are probably individuals in the Hall of Fame who haven’t abided by all of the rules but this is something that was detrimental to the history of the game and that’s the problem I have.

“When I see records being shattered left and right for selfish reasons, just to make more money, that’s when I have a problem with it.’

The voting rules for the Hall of Fame say, “Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”

Dawson said, “You talk about integrity, the rules were broken in a sense…

“Nobody can say when these individual started doing it. But all of a sudden late in your career you become twice as good a ballplayer as you were maybe in your first 5 to 10 years? That just doesn’t happen. That’s not the way it works.”

...“Bonds probably will eventually. I think there are lot of writers where somewhere along the lines they will switch gears and he will get in, but these other two guys (Clemens and Sosa), I don’t see it.”

Repoz Posted: December 07, 2012 at 02:40 PM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, hof

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   1. Tim Wallach was my Hero Posted: December 07, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4319536)
Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens say Andre Dawson doesn’t belong in Hall of Fame.
   2. bachslunch Posted: December 07, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4319540)
"One of the criteria is integrity of the game and I think that was broken..."

As opposed to, oh let's say, statistical standards -- under which Dawson might be seen as pretty marginal.
   3. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4319543)
Dawson missed most of their careers, stuck in the Wrigley ivy until Kerry Wood pulled him out.
   4. JRVJ Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:06 PM (#4319545)
Was Dawson mentioned in the Cocaine scandals of the 80s? I seem to think that Raines was, and may be bringing him by association.

Otherwise, I don't have a problem with this point of view on this (if he doesn't have a glass ceiling as a player, he is entitled to his opinion).
   5. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4319561)
I seem to think that Raines was, and may be bringing him by association.


Well if Raines was, then obviously Dawson was. That's solid reasoning for BBWAA voters, so its good enough for me.
   6. I Fought Vance Law and Vance Law Won Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4319563)
What year is it?
   7. AROM Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4319577)
Dawson was borderline, and pretty much everyone acknowledged this - the voters who put him in did so only after rejecting him for 8 years. At the time I thought he deserved to go in, but these comments make me rethink that.

Andre Dawson is not fit to stand in judgement of Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds. My preference for the HOF is not to totally throw out a character clause. It's OK if used to help decide borderline cases, but the primary factor in HOF cases should be the greatness of the playing career.

1 month, 2 days left for the writers to get over themselves and serve the purpose of honoring greatness, or turn the HOF into a joke.

A HOF class that leaves greater talent sitting below the 75% line while inducting lessor talents is a joke. It reminds me of the Bill James article back in one of the abstracts, where the owners of the Padres are given a chance to bring back any player of all time. Instead of choosing among Ruth, Wagner, Mays, Williams, Mantle, Aaron, they go with Danny Thompson.
   8. JJ1986 Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4319580)
SugarBear must be busy today.
   9. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4319585)
Get back in the Ivy, Andre.
   10. mex4173 Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4319591)
So if the players had been cheating to win (and somehow he knows their motives), Dawson would have been okay with it? Where does that leave users who didn't break records?
   11. AROM Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4319619)
Pretty much everything a player does on the field is done for money. That outfielder diving to make a catch, the scrappy little infielder hustling down the line trying to beat out an infield single. The homerun hitter who hits one more homer than the best previous slugger. All of these guys are doing it for the money.

I suppose you could argue they are doing for the pure love of competing in the sport. But this could just as easily be true for the slugger as it is for the hustling infielder.
   12. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4319633)
Little Anthony & the Imperials say Nirvana, Radiohead don't belong in Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
   13. LargeBill Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:52 PM (#4319638)
To me the interesting part is how he infers that the 7 time MVP will probably get in but the seven time Cy Young winner won't. Is it a hitter over pitcher preference?

“Bonds probably will eventually. I think there are lot of writers where somewhere along the lines they will switch gears and he will get in, but these other two guys (Clemens and Sosa), I don’t see it.”


Separately, most of these current Hall of Famers would do better to go with "No comment" or some version of "The voters have done very well in the past (hey, they elected me, didn't they) and I trust they will continue to take the process very seriously." While we might laugh at the second choice, it is a nice empty statement not likely to come back to haunt them like the sanctimonious crap some are spewing.
   14. Walt Davis Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:54 PM (#4319641)
the simple reason that the rules were broken

Oh no they weren't. Records were broken, not rules. People might be less upset if rules were broken but records weren't.

the rules were broken in a sense

Oh, those rules.

Was Dawson mentioned in the Cocaine scandals of the 80s? I seem to think that Raines was, and may be bringing him by association.

If memory serves, Raines gives some credit to Dawson for helping straighten him out.

However I do have a Dawson-"drugs" story which is a bit prophetic of today's world. Waiting in line to get into the bleachers, the players arrive and a bunch of folks rush off to get autographs. Some time later this woman in her 20s comes storming back, ######## that Dawson, after signing many autographs, refused her (and others) with the lame excuse that he had to go get ready for the game. She insisted he was on drugs (seriously, she went on and on about it), hiding his coke-reddened eyes behind his famously endorsed shades.

Now we all know it was roid rage.

Pretty much everything a player does on the field is done for money.

Of course Dawson was the guy who gave the Cubs a blank contract in the fight to choose to play where he wanted to. On the other hand, he was briefly the highest-paid player in the game.

But I will defend Dawson's desire to play to my grave. He gave one of my all-time favorite answers. Asked why he dove for a ball (risking injury) when the Cubs were ahead something like 10-0 in the 8th inning, Dawson (with derision in his voice that such a stupid question was being asked) simply replied "Because it was in play."

There was also the "get hit in the face, come to, try to kill Eric Show" incident and the Davey Martinez broken leg HR incident ... I have zero doubt that Dawson took his baseball very seriously.

Dawson's only flaw as a player was that he didn't walk.

At the time I thought he deserved to go in, but these comments make me rethink that.

Why? If steroid use isn't disqualifying, being a moralistic blowhard or potential hypocrite certainly shouldn't be.
   15. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4319645)
These steroids threads are getting to be like one of those Chinese restaurant menus.

Choose One From Column A...

Angry former player says

Philosophical former player says

Disgusted sabermetrician says

Indignant sportswriter says

Baseball loving celebrity says

Old School broadcaster says

Complete moron says

Sensible man says

One From Column B...

Barry Bonds should be shot at sunrise

Ty Cobb was a racist and should be kicked out

Hank Aaron will weep if Barry Bonds is inducted

WHAT ABOUT GREENIES??? HUH??? HUH???

Juicy Fruit was all in fun, but juicing is cheating

Bonds is OK, but Mark McGwire's discounted OPS+ is only 603

The Hall of Fame Isn't What It Used To Be

I just wanna see dingers

And One From Column C...

and I'm voting for nobody until everybody apologizes for not apologizing for everything

and I'm writing in Pete Rose just to stick it to The Man

and I'm only voting for anyone I'd trust near my five year old daughter**

and I'm voting for Bonds because numbers are numbers

and I'm leaving my ballot blank as a protest against this farce

and whatever Ernie Banks says is good enough for me

and I'm voting for anyone with a WAR over 54.7

and I'm voting for Piazza because he cured my Bacne with this weird old tip

**applies to players only

The only trouble is, an hour later you feel like arguing again.











   16. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:56 PM (#4319646)
Otherwise, I don't have a problem with this point of view on this (if he doesn't have a glass ceiling as a player, he is entitled to his opinion).


I have a problem with a point of view that comes from a marginal HOFer questioning the worthiness of players who towered over him.

Andre Dawson in his best year was barely as good as Barry Bonds in his worst.
   17. Walt Davis Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4319648)
On his Bonds vs. Clemens -- yeah, I'm not sure what his thinking there is. Maybe that Bonds stood out even more than Clemens who had Maddux, Johnson and Pedro for competition? Or maybe just that Bonds has the HR record and Clemens doesn't have any important records? Or, more likely, he paid less attention to the AL and doesn't realize Clemens won 7 CYA.
   18. Walt Davis Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:00 PM (#4319655)
Sensible man says

So Andy, you're saying no women are sensible?
   19. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4319669)
Sensible man says

So Andy, you're saying no women are sensible?


Sensible men know that "man" and "men", like "mankind" or "chairman", is not necessarily gender specific. My wife is a woman, and she approves this message.
   20. AROM Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4319678)
Why? If steroid use isn't disqualifying, being a moralistic blowhard or potential hypocrite certainly shouldn't be.


I can agree with that. If the HOF is a relevant enough institution to honor both Bonds and Dawson I'll be happy.

Of course Dawson was the guy who gave the Cubs a blank contract in the fight to choose to play where he wanted to.


True. It is my understanding (though verifiable facts on this never came out) that Bonds offered similar terms after the 2007 free agent market produced no bidders for him. Unfortunately Bonds' collusion siutation did not have a happy ending.
   21. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4319702)
“When I see records being shattered left and right for selfish reasons, just to make more money, that’s when I have a problem with it.’

Bonds: "When I see players making the Hall of Fame who, in their biggest year (1987), hit .246/.288/.480 on the road, and they are saying I shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, that's when I have a problem with it".

I've served in elected office, and one of the rules in a legislative body is that you debate until you have the votes. As soon as you have the votes, shut the #### up and vote. Once you get the vote to go your way, don't gloat. Shut the #### up.

Andre Dawson is one of the worst HOF selections in recent history, and should not be a member. There is absolutely ZERO reason for Dawson to start passing judgement on who should or should not be in the HOF. You've got your plaque, Andre...please go fishing.
   22. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:19 PM (#4319716)
Bonds is OK, but Mark McGwire's discounted OPS+ is only 603

603 sounds pretty good to me.
   23. Walt Davis Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4319723)
Andre Dawson is one of the worst HOF selections in recent history

Methinks you're not paying attention to recent history. One can certainly make a case that Dawson doesn't belong (depending on the size of one's HoF) but compared to the recently selected Perez, Puckett, Rice, Sutter, Gossage and possibly Morris (not to mention some VC selections like Cepeda, Maz and Fox), he looks pretty good.

Dawson also has the advantage of an excellent peak with 36 WAR from ages 23 to 28 when he was an excellent defensive CF. That's not an extra double-super amazing peak or anything (i.e. obviously not enough on its own) but, for that age range, it's comparable to Kiner, Mize, Ripken, Thomas, Simmons, Reggie and Bench. (Minor note: Bench had as many PA as Dawson in that age range so it's not a playing time artifact). Of course those are cherry-picked to Dawson's best stretch.

By the way, the latest version of WAR puts Dawson just over 60. He's got as many WAR as McCovey, a smidgen more than B Williams and Winfield, ahead of Killebrew and Stargell. He's 2 wins shy of Alomar and 3 shy of Murray. I don't know how he ranks relative to other HoFers but fWAR gives him about 2 more wins than bWAR. They have him identically pegged on defense (he comes out at essentially 0 dWAR), the difference being how replacement value is calculated.
   24. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:40 PM (#4319729)
Bonds is OK, but Mark McGwire's discounted OPS is only .603


603 sounds pretty good to me.


Stupid timed out editing function!
   25. Ron J2 Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:40 PM (#4319730)
#4 Raines specifically cites Dawson's help for getting (and staying) clean. Raines named his second son Andre in recognition of Dawson's help.

Dawson is also supposed to have tried to help Rodney Scott (supposedly this wasn't successful)

   26. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 07, 2012 at 07:08 PM (#4319750)
When I see players making the Hall of Fame who, in their biggest year (1987), hit .246/.288/.480 on the road

Depends on what you consider his biggest year. In 1981, Dawson hit .351/.393/.649 on the road; in '83, it was .322/.351/.615.
   27. vivaelpujols Posted: December 07, 2012 at 09:22 PM (#4319774)
I'm guessing money wasn't the biggest reason Bonds took steroids. I also don't know why Bonds would get in and Clemens would not. Both basically sustained 8 WAR levels from their early 20's to their 40's. Bonds got a little better as he aged, but Clemens' best years were in his first few (with the exception of 97). I agree that Sosa probably won't make it as he voters will say he likely wouldn't have put up HOF numbers without steroids. You can't say that about Bonds or Clemens.
   28. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: December 07, 2012 at 09:37 PM (#4319780)
When I see players making the Hall of Fame who, in their biggest year (1987), hit .246/.288/.480 on the road

Depends on what you consider his biggest year. In 1981, Dawson hit .351/.393/.649 on the road; in '83, it was .322/.351/.615.


Don't get me wrong - I do not think his 1987 MVP season was his best season, by a long shot. I'm saying many people perceive it to be his best year. He was a hell of a player with the Expos.

My point above is not that he was a better or worse selection than, say, Gossage or Puckett. Rather, no matter what you think of Bonds and PEDs, he is obviously one of the greatest players of all time. Just as Bill James once said that you could split Rickey Henderson in half, and you might have two HOF players, I would say you could split Barry Bonds career in half, and have two HOFers:

1986-1999: Exactly 2,000 games played, OPS+ of 163, 3 MVPs, four other times in the top five for MVP
2000-2007 (when the numbers got video game weird): 986 games played, 317 HRs, OPS+ of 221, 4 MVPs, and a 2nd place finish.

Forget taking steroids. If he friggin died after 1999, he'd still be a first ballot HOFer. I have a ton of respect for Dawson, who by all accounts was a leader, standup guy, heck of a baseball player, fun to watch, etc. But I say, you just stay out of this stuff, and if you get asked by the media, you just say something like, "Hey, I'm not a voter. I'm honored to be in the Hall of Fame, and I'm hopeful and confident the writers will sort this all out over time."
   29. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 07, 2012 at 09:54 PM (#4319790)
I'm amazed that Dawson has kept up with things as well as he has, considering how long he'd been trapped in the ivy before Kerry Wood rescued him.
   30. vivaelpujols Posted: December 07, 2012 at 09:57 PM (#4319792)
Bonds had a 160 career WAR, so if you split him in three you'd have three Mike Cameron's, which is a little bit short of the HOF. Babe Ruth on the other had about 190 as a hitter and pitcher, so if you split him in three you'd have three Ryne Sandbergs, which is sort of a HOFer I guess.

Fangraphs numbers. B-R has a higher replacement level.
   31. Buzzards Bay Posted: December 07, 2012 at 10:03 PM (#4319795)
A year 15 induction captures the conceit with detente
   32. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 07, 2012 at 10:21 PM (#4319798)
If steroid use isn't disqualifying, being a moralistic blowhard or potential hypocrite certainly shouldn't be.

Blowhards and hypocrites annoy me much more than steroid users.
   33. Comic Strip Person Posted: December 07, 2012 at 10:38 PM (#4319801)
This is not a surprising position for Dawson to take; he's always felt that baseball players were role models
   34. shoewizard Posted: December 07, 2012 at 11:26 PM (#4319815)
"Get off my Hall of Fame Plaque"
   35. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 08, 2012 at 01:52 AM (#4319841)
Hall of Famers who take a decade to get there and then try to pull the ladder up once they're in are kind of pathetic characters.
   36. Walt Davis Posted: December 08, 2012 at 05:03 AM (#4319859)
Hall of Famers who take a decade to get there and then try to pull the ladder up once they're in are kind of pathetic characters.

Right, and expressing his opinion on steroids and the HoF is "trying to pull the ladder up". Now if he comes out about how Maddux and Johnson and Bagwell and Biggio and ... don't belong in the HoF you might actually have a point.

I don't agree with Dawson's take on PEDs and the HoF but you may have noticed it's a pretty common opinion.

   37. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: December 08, 2012 at 12:54 PM (#4319930)
Well, neither does he.

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