BBTF's Newsblog Discussion :: Angels acquire Dan Haren for Joe Saunders, 3 others

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Sunday, July 25, 2010

Angels acquire Dan Haren for Joe Saunders, 3 others

The first major pitching trade of deadline week came Sunday afternoon when the Los Angeles Angels acquired Dan Haren from the Arizona Diamondbacks for left-hander Joe Saunders and three other players.

Haren, 7-8 with a 4.60 ERA this year, was one of the major pitching targets among contenders before the July 31 deadline for non-waiver trades. He won at least 14 games in each of the previous five seasons with Oakland and Arizona, topping out at 16-8 with a 3.33 ERA in 2008. He is owed at least $29 million through 2012, including salaries of $12.5 million in 2011 and ‘12.

Also going to Arizona in the deal are left-handed pitcher Patrick Corbin, right-hander Rafael Rodriguez and a player to be named later.

Saunders, an All-Star in 2008, had had an up-and-down year in the Angels’ rotation, going 6-10 with a 4.62 ERA. He is 54-32 lifetime.

Repoz Posted: July 25, 2010 at 10:39 PM | 120 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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101. RollingWave Posted: July 26, 2010 at 09:14 AM (#3599071)

It's Ed Wade. He traded Schilling and Rolen in the primes of their career for Vicente Padila, Travis Lee, Omar Daal, Nelson Figueroa, Placido Polanco, Bud Smith, and Mike Timlin.

Hey! I enjoyed watching Figueroa dominate in 2007..... in Taiwan that is .

Well I guess this package is better than a bunch of 2nd-3rd string prosepects from the Yankees, but it is mehhhh to say the least.

At this rate, the Yanks should be able to trade a bunch of meh prospects for Oswalt.

102. AROM Posted: July 26, 2010 at 12:19 PM (#3599084)

It comes down to how willing the Astros are to make a deal. I don't see much surplus value in Oswalt's contract, so I doubt teams would trade good prospects for him. If I were the Yankees I might be willing to rent a pitcher, like Ted Lilly, but otherwise just wait till the offseason and sign Lee.

103. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 26, 2010 at 12:40 PM (#3599092)

Haren's market value is/was lower than everyone here and at fangraphs thinks....because the people who set the market value are the buyers. And the buyers look at his last year of poor results and feel he is not as sure a bet as he was 12 months ago. So there was never any chance that the d backs were going to get as good a haul as everyone thinks they should have.

I don't know why so many people have so much trouble accepting this.

all but calling the D-Backs EIB's

European Investment Bankers?

104. AROM Posted: July 26, 2010 at 01:27 PM (#3599123)

Corbin and Skaggs ranked #8 and #12 in the BA prospect handbook. There was limited information on them at the time of publication. In 82 innings, Skaggs has an 82-21 K-W ratio, and in 118 innings, Corbin has a 106-28. That kind of performance should have them moving up the ranks a bit.

BA did have a mid-season updated top 50, and neither one ranks that high. It's possible they could rank in the top 100 but hard to tell. If all teams had somewhat equal farm systems the #8-12 guys for one team would rank 200-400 overall. And by BA's rankings, the Angel farm system was not one of the better ones.

The Angels seem to have given up on lefthanded pitching. Between this deal and Will Smith going to KC, the only lefthanders with any ability above rookie ball are Fuentes, Reckling if he can get back on track from a disastrous season in AAA, and Kazmir if he can be fixed.

105. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: July 26, 2010 at 01:50 PM (#3599135)

Twenty-two year old Kenley Jansen picked up his first major league save today. This time last year, he was just being converted from a A ball catcher to pitcher (he was the Dutch's catcher in the WBC). In the brief time he was in the minors (56.7 IP), he had a K rate of 15.4/ 9 IP. Last year, his K/9 IP was 14.7, and he mostly was a starter. When Dwight Gooden struck out 300 batter in his A ball season, he K rate was 14.1. Granted, Gooden was just 19, but the Dodgers have something special in Jansen.
The Gooden reference is ... unnecessary. There have been loads of guys who have put up K,W/9 #s like Jansen in the past, even shortly after conversion. I like him, think he'll make a nice short reliever, but - c'mon.

106. Martin Hemner

Posted: July 26, 2010 at 01:59 PM (#3599140)

I read Sheehan's piece. I just don't agree. He argues that the upgrade from Saunders to Haren is equivalent to the upgrade from a fifth starter in the Rangers rotation to Cliff Lee (since the Rangers didn't give up any major league pitchers in the deal, and Smoak didn't have much major league value this year). That just seems preposterous.

107. Shredder Posted: July 26, 2010 at 02:05 PM (#3599144)

European Investment Bankers?

Economically Illiterate #######. It's from the 2002 almost strike that was averted at the last minute.

I didn't know Haren was from Monterey Park. I never would have guessed, what with him not being Asian.

108. Spivey Posted: July 26, 2010 at 02:25 PM (#3599166)

109. Shredder Posted: July 26, 2010 at 02:25 PM (#3599170)

He argues that the upgrade from Saunders to Haren is equivalent to the upgrade from a fifth starter in the Rangers rotation to Cliff Lee (since the Rangers didn't give up any major league pitchers in the deal, and Smoak didn't have much major league value this year). That just seems preposterous.

I'd agree that the upgrade isn't as large for this season, but is the consensus that the Rangers are going to re-sign Lee? The Angels have Haren for three more seasons after this. But yeah, I think Lee is better than Haren right now, and I think Saunders was probably better than whoever Texas' fifth starter was, or at least he was a good bet to be better than a fifth starter over the rest of the season.

110. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 26, 2010 at 02:34 PM (#3599177)

He argues that the upgrade from Saunders to Haren is equivalent to the upgrade from a fifth starter in the Rangers rotation to Cliff Lee (since the Rangers didn't give up any major league pitchers in the deal, and Smoak didn't have much major league value this year). That just seems preposterous.

What's preposterous is that Haren has a 141/29 k/bb in 141 Ip and an ERA of 4.60 AND his name is not Ricky Nolasco, something has to give...

seriously, last 10 years, k/9 of 8+, BB/9 of 3 or better:

Rk    Player    ERA+    SO/9    BB/9    IP    Year    Age
1    Ricky Nolasco    84    9.49    2.14    185.0    2009    26
2    James Shields    87    8.04    2.10    128.2    2010    28
3    Dan Haren    98    9.00    1.85    141.0    2010    29
4    Pedro Martinez    98    9.29    2.65    132.2    2006    34
5    Felix Hernandez    98    8.29    2.83    191.0    2006    20
6    Javier Vazquez    98    8.64    2.64    208.1    2008    32
7    Javier Vazquez    98    8.17    2.49    202.2    2006    30
8    Jake Peavy    99    9.56    2.76    202.1    2006    25
9    Javier Vazquez    101    8.01    1.92    215.2    2005    29
10    Randy Johnson    112    8.42    1.87    225.2    2005    41
11    Jeremy Bonderman    112    8.50    2.69    214.0    2006    23
12    Roger Clemens    113    8.08    2.47    211.2    2003    40
13    Ted Lilly    113    8.09    2.81    204.2    2008    32
14    Josh Beckett    115    8.88    1.76    174.1    2008    28
15    Randy Wolf    116    8.39    2.82    163.0    2001    24
16    Rich Hill    118    8.45    2.91    195.0    2007    27
17    Josh Beckett    118    8.36    2.92    178.2    2005    25
18    Brett Myers    118    8.69    2.84    215.1    2005    24
19    Randy Johnson    119    8.46    2.15    184.0    2008    44
20    Javier Vazquez    119    8.10    2.52    217.2    2000    24
21    Wandy Rodriguez    119    8.58    2.88    137.1    2008    29
22    Curt Schilling    120    8.07    1.24    204.0    2006    39
23    Brett Myers    120    8.59    2.86    198.0    2006    25
24    Roy Oswalt    120    8.37    2.37    129.0    2010    32
25    Josh Beckett    122    8.43    2.33    212.1    2009    29
Rk    Player    ERA+    SO/9    BB/9    IP    Year    Age
26    Cole Hamels    122    8.50    2.98    127.0    2010    26
27    Aaron Harang    124    8.47    2.02    231.2    2007    29
28    Aaron Harang    124    8.30    2.15    234.1    2006    28
29    Justin Verlander    125    8.17    2.99    201.2    2007    24
30    Pedro Martinez    125    9.41    2.53    217.0    2004    32
31    Zack Greinke    126    8.14    2.49    202.1    2008    24
32    Javier Vazquez    126    8.85    2.08    216.2    2007    31
33    Ervin Santana    127    8.79    1.93    219.0    2008    25
34    John Smoltz    128    8.19    2.13    232.0    2006    39
35    Roger Clemens    128    8.70    2.94    220.1    2001    38
36    Ben Sheets    128    8.10    1.44    156.2    2005    26
37    Johan Santana    129    9.66    2.14    219.0    2007    28
38    Mike Mussina    130    8.18    1.68    214.2    2003    34
39    John Patterson    130    8.39    2.95    198.1    2005    27
40    Javier Vazquez    130    8.37    1.77    223.2    2001    25
41    Josh Johnson    131    8.22    2.50    209.0    2009    25
42    Jered Weaver    132    9.87    2.01    134.0    2010    27
43    Justin Verlander    133    10.09    2.36    240.0    2009    26
44    Jake Peavy    134    9.58    2.22    203.0    2005    24
45    Cole Hamels    135    8.69    2.11    183.1    2007    23
46    Jon Lester    138    9.96    2.83    203.1    2009    25
47    CC Sabathia    139    8.03    2.06    192.2    2006    25
48    Javier Vazquez    139    9.40    2.22    230.2    2003    27
49    Wandy Rodriguez    139    8.45    2.76    205.2    2009    30
50    Dan Haren    139    8.58    1.67    216.0    2008    27
Rk    Player    ERA+    SO/9    BB/9    IP    Year    Age
51    John Smoltz    140    8.62    2.06    205.2    2007    40
52    Curt Schilling    142    10.97    1.15    259.1    2002    35
53    Mike Mussina    143    8.42    1.65    228.2    2001    32
54    Javier Vazquez    143    9.77    1.81    219.1    2009    33
55    Roy Oswalt    144    8.03    2.39    233.0    2002    24
56    Josh Beckett    145    8.70    1.79    200.2    2007    27
57    Pedro Martinez    146    8.63    1.95    217.0    2005    33
58    Erik Bedard    146    10.93    2.82    182.0    2007    28
59    Dan Haren    146    8.75    1.49    229.1    2009    28
60    Johan Santana    148    9.61    2.67    158.1    2003    24
61    Felix Hernandez    149    8.32    2.46    153.2    2010    24
62    Curt Schilling    150    8.06    1.39    226.2    2004    37
63    Johan Santana    155    9.25    1.75    231.2    2005    26
64    Curt Schilling    157    10.27    1.37    256.2    2001    34
65    Adam Wainwright    157    8.19    2.55    233.0    2009    27
66    CC Sabathia    157    8.93    2.10    253.0    2008    27
67    Jake Peavy    158    9.67    2.74    223.1    2007    26
68    Curt Schilling    159    10.39    1.71    168.0    2003    36
69    Esteban Loaiza    159    8.23    2.23    226.1    2003    31
70    Johan Santana    162    9.44    1.81    233.2    2006    27
71    Ben Sheets    162    10.03    1.22    237.0    2004    25
72    Kevin Brown    169    8.45    1.84    230.0    2000    35
73    Roy Oswalt    170    9.15    1.52    141.2    2001    23
74    Jake Peavy    171    9.36    2.87    166.1    2004    23
75    Felix Hernandez    174    8.18    2.68    238.2    2009    23
Rk    Player    ERA+    SO/9    BB/9    IP    Year    Age
76    Tim Lincecum    177    10.42    2.72    225.1    2009    25
77    Randy Johnson    178    10.62    1.61    245.2    2004    40
78    Mark Prior    179    10.43    2.13    211.1    2003    22
79    Jason Schmidt    180    9.01    1.99    207.2    2003    30
80    Randy Johnson    181    12.56    2.75    248.2    2000    36
81    Johan Santana    182    10.46    2.13    228.0    2004    25
82    Randy Johnson    188    13.41    2.56    249.2    2001    37
83    Randy Johnson    197    11.56    2.46    260.0    2002    38
84    Pedro Martinez    202    10.79    1.81    199.1    2002    30
85    Zack Greinke    205    9.50    2.00    229.1    2009    25
86    Adam Wainwright    208    8.25    2.18    148.1    2010    28
87    Pedro Martinez    211    9.93    2.27    186.2    2003    31
88    Josh Johnson    258    9.45    1.94    134.1    2010    26
89    Pedro Martinez    291    11.78    1.33    217.0    2000    28
Seasons/Careers found: 89. 

How does Javy Vaz do that, year after year after year????

I tend to think Haren will be ok moving forward, he's temporarily turned into Javy Vaz, but there's only one Javy.

111. Greg Franklin Posted: July 26, 2010 at 02:46 PM (#3599190)

The archive of the wiki on EIB

I'd link to the actual wiki, but Jon Daly broke it.

112. Martin Hemner

Posted: July 26, 2010 at 02:53 PM (#3599200)

What's preposterous is that Haren has a 141/29 k/bb in 141 Ip and an ERA of 4.60 AND his name is not Ricky Nolasco, something has to give...

Interesting list. Nolasco is putting up a similar performance this year as well. Is it possible that the top of this list (Vazquez aside) reflect guys who are throwing it hard down the middle of the plate (like late career Pedro and Randy, plus early career Felix)? Lots of strikeouts, few walks, but very hittable...

113. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: July 26, 2010 at 03:00 PM (#3599208)

11.78 1.33

That's just ridiculous.

114. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 26, 2010 at 03:27 PM (#3599231)

Is it possible that the top of this list (Vazquez aside) reflect guys who are throwing it hard down the middle of the plate

???? aside from Javy Vaz?????
from what I've seen that is Javy's problem, he throws it hard, but too often throws that damn thing belt high over the center of the plate.
Late career Pedro couldn't break glass, he wasn't throwing it over the plate his problem was that anything NEAR the plate was hittable.

If I was an Angel's fan I'd take comfort in the fact that Javy (and possibly Nolasco) aside, residence at the top seems to be transitory- maybe

115. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 26, 2010 at 03:32 PM (#3599239)

Using 9/2 rather than 8/3:

Rk    Player    ERA+    SO/9    BB/9    IP    Year    Age
1    Pedro Martinez    291    11.78    1.33    217.0    2000    28
2    Josh Johnson    258    9.45    1.94    134.1    2010    26
3    Zack Greinke    205    9.50    2.00    229.1    2009    25
4    Pedro Martinez    202    10.79    1.81    199.1    2002    30
5    Jason Schmidt    180    9.01    1.99    207.2    2003    30
6    Randy Johnson    178    10.62    1.61    245.2    2004    40
7    Roy Oswalt    170    9.15    1.52    141.2    2001    23
8    Ben Sheets    162    10.03    1.22    237.0    2004    25
9    Johan Santana    162    9.44    1.81    233.2    2006    27
10    Curt Schilling    159    10.39    1.71    168.0    2003    36
11    Curt Schilling    157    10.27    1.37    256.2    2001    34
12    Johan Santana    155    9.25    1.75    231.2    2005    26
13    Javier Vazquez    143    9.77    1.81    219.1    2009    33
14    Curt Schilling    142    10.97    1.15    259.1    2002    35
15    Dan Haren    98    9.00    1.85    141.0    2010    29 

Haren's right at the cutoff, but yowza, is he an outlier here- plus Josh Johnson really has thrown well this year hasn't he?

ok 1947-2010, 90+ ip, k/99 between 8.75 and 9.25, bb/9 between 1.75 and 2.25:

Rk    Player    ERA+    SO/9    BB/9    IP    Year    Age    Tm    Lg
1    Tom Seaver    194    9.08    1.92    286.1    1971    26    NYM    NL
2    Sandy Koufax    190    8.83    2.15    323.0    1966    30    LAD    NL
3    Sandy Koufax    188    9.00    2.14    223.0    1964    28    LAD    NL
4    Jason Schmidt    180    9.01    1.99    207.2    2003    30    SFG    NL
5    CC Sabathia    157    8.93    2.10    253.0    2008    27    TOT    ML
6    Johan Santana    155    9.25    1.75    231.2    2005    26    MIN    AL
7    Sonny Siebert    144    9.11    2.19    188.2    1965    28    CLE    AL
8    Sammy Ellis    141    9.20    2.06    122.1    1964    23    CIN    NL
9    Ervin Santana    127    8.79    1.93    219.0    2008    25    LAA    AL
10    Javier Vazquez    126    8.85    2.08    216.2    2007    31    CHW    AL
11    Curt Schilling    119    8.84    2.02    116.0    1995    28    PHI    NL
12    Josh Beckett    115    8.88    1.76    174.1    2008    28    BOS    AL
13    Dan Haren    98    9.00    1.85    141.0    2010    29    ARI    NL 

116. Dr. Vaux Posted: July 26, 2010 at 03:33 PM (#3599242)

Even if Haren is Javy Vazquez now, the Angels made a good trade and have a useful player at a salary that's in no way crippling.

(Well now, is Javy Vazquez really more valuable than Joe Saunders? They're both innings eaters who allow runs at a pretty average rate for starters. The strikeouts are flashy, but in Javy's case, they don't keep runs off the scoreboard.)

117. Swedish Chef Posted: July 26, 2010 at 03:34 PM (#3599246)

European Investment Bankers?
Economically Illiterate #######.

What's the difference?

118. Rich Rifkin Posted: July 26, 2010 at 03:56 PM (#3599264)

Why will the A's win the AL West? Well, they probably won't. They are too far behind and are not that good. But, there are two things which seem to happen every year: the Rangers' pitching melts down in the Texas heat*; and Dan Haren falls apart after the All-Star game:

Haren's second half swoon the last four years:
2006 1st - 3.63
2006 2nd - 4.33

2007 1st - 2.30
2007 2nd - 4.15

2008 1st - 2.72
2008 2nd - 4.18

2009 1st - 2.01
2009 2nd - 4.62

Career HR's per 9 IP
1st - 0.968
2nd - 1.212

*Unfortunately, the Rangers' pitchers have not actually gotten worse in the second half the last few years. But maybe someone can feed their manager some drugs?

119. Gern Blanston Posted: July 26, 2010 at 04:02 PM (#3599270)

At this rate, the Yanks should be able to trade a bunch of meh prospects for Oswalt.

Or not, since with Haren gone Oswalt becomes a scarcer commodity.

120. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: July 26, 2010 at 04:06 PM (#3599271)

Haren's right at the cutoff, but yowza, is he an outlier here- plus Josh Johnson really has thrown well this year hasn't he?

The All Star game had some incredible pitching talent on display, but the guy who impressed me the most was Johnson. His stuff looked unhittable (which I guess isn't surprising in light of his numbers).

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Sunday, July 25, 2010

Angels acquire Dan Haren for Joe Saunders, 3 others

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