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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Saturday, March 02, 2013
... when Trout was assigned a salary of $510,000 on Saturday, a mere $20,000 above the major league minimum, after winning American League rookie of the year honors and finishing second in voting for most valuable player last season, Craig Landis was stunned.
“During the process, on behalf of Mike, I asked only that the Angels compensate Mike fairly for his historic 2012 season, given his service time,” Landis, who represents Trout, said in an email. “In my opinion, this contract falls well short of a ‘fair’ contract, and I have voiced this to the Angels throughout the process.”
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As for Landis' quotes, they were measured compared to what he could have said. But Craig (# 1 draft pick by the Giants in 1977 with a $ 100,000 bonus) is the son of outfielder Jim Landis and knows how the process works. When Craig and Trout get the power (partially via arbitration and fully via free agency), the Angels' GM at that time will be reminded.
Throw the kid $1 million.
And he would be reminded of that even if gave Trout $20 million this year.
But now, Trout will take glee in using his power.
"Mr. Moreno, you and I are gonna be partners."
Exactly, I know it's best to imagine that it would be nice if teams would do what's "right" but it's not like players have a history of rewarding teams who treat them well.
All the Angels did is make it easier for Trout to leave the team in 6 years, and for the fans to say "I understand why he left them".
For that matter, he should be the CF "just because". Keep your best player happy.
Play without him. Does he have another source of employment that will pay him half a million a year? I'm not saying I agree with the Angels. They should've paid him a good sum for a second year man - one million, maybe a little more - but they can't negotiate with a gun to their heads.
But it's more than that. Give him a million now, and you can't pay him less than that next year. Then his next year salary will be based off of that, and so on until free agency (assuming it gets that far. Point is, an extra half mil now may end up costing them many millions more over the next 5 years. Still, relative chump change in the overall scheme of things, but considerably more than a mere half mil.
They'd never go.
Is the 500k going to save you that much later on? You could probably convince me that's the case as he goes through his arb years, that he'll be more likely to settle or agree to arb year buyouts, instead of taking you to the mat every time you go in front of an arbiter. But when it comes time for him to test FA, I'm not seeing how he'll take anything but the biggest deal out there, making any goodwill you attempt to purchase worth nothing.
If there's a 1% chance it puts the Angels in a worse position to sign him, one way to think about it is that the Angels need only pay Trout less than $50 million extra when it's time to sign him to make not tossing him an extra 500k the right move.
And what Misirlou wrote in post 17. If this ends up costing the Angels $5m, what leverage does that give them? Is Trout really not going to the highest bidder?
The USFL threw enough cash at Herschel Walker, Reggie White, Doug Flutie, Jim Kelly and Steve Young. This alternate baseball league will get players, especially if MLB owners are dumb enough to keep thinking they can pay so little. Whether the league would last is a completely different story.
They'd never go.
Harper's already signed through 2015. He made $500,000 last year, and will make $2,000,000, $2,150,000 and $2,250,000 for the next three years. He's also said that he wants to finish his career as a Nat, and given all factors I wouldn't bet against it.
Well sure, already signed guys wouldn't go, but the next 19 year old good enough for the majors could make a lot more than that if there was a second league. And I'll take that bet as soon as the Dodgers let his agent know what they'd be willing to pay for his services.
I do think this was a little pennywise, pound foolish myself.
These aren't really "rewards." The team is getting the player for millions less than his market value. Which is certainly their right under the CBA, but let's not pretend these teams went above and beyond here, to any meaningful degree.
But everyone should remember, the next time the media gripes about "greedy ballplayers," that these players often make far less than their market value for several years. If Trout gets hurt next year, he is effectively screwed, even if the Angels were to give him $1 mil now.
Tough noogies Mr. Trout? And I'm not saying what Moreno's doing here isn't shortsighted, penny-wise, etc.
You mean he'd have to finish college and get a shi**y job like us? :-(
Sure, but if I'm Trout, I don't sign away a single FA year.
There are very, very few career ending injuries for position players.
Do away with the minimum salary while you're at it.
It would probably be meaningful to the player. $300k is not chump change.
That's a thought, too.
Good point.
Trout only go a $1.2M bonus. An extra few hundred grand might well be meaningful to him right now.
What the hell were they thinking?
It'd be a helluva PR move. Get my attention at least.
The minimum salary is not the issue, #29 has it. Do away with the player's union altogether if you're going to strip MLB down to a pure market.
Well, the system was set up nearly 40 years ago before all but a few of the current players were born. True, most of the current vets have been around for 1-2 renegotiations and could have pushed for changing it but it's not like they set out to create this system. And of course with every CBA, the min salary goes up.
It would probably be meaningful to the player. $300k is not chump change.
This is presumably one of the main attractions to the player of the early buyout. Salvador Perez made $750 last year and will make $1 M this year. But that is one very team-friendly contract.
Sure, but if I'm Trout, I don't sign away a single FA year
If the price is right, there's no harm in doing this. As is, he'll hit FA at 26, no major harm in that being pushed back to 27-28.
$30M per year? That's what you'd have to offer for him to think it was a good deal for his first FA year, I'd think,
Which is funny, because Peter Bourjos is a dead ringer for Jim Landis, and Craig Landis is also complaining about Trout moving to LF to make way for Bourjos!
I prefer to keep your best player healthy, and your best team on the field. Both of which goals are better served by putting Trout in LF & Bourjos in center.
Since when is CF a risky position to play? Given that he's a natural CF, I'd say he's more at risk in LF.
I think it's very interesting that the Angels and Nationals are both doing the same thing here. Each has a very young superstar capable of playing a good CF, and both teams are choosing to move the player to LF to keep him healthier. Maybe CF is being viewed as a risky position, at least in the long term. And when you think of guys who played CF in the majors from 19 or 20 or 21 onward, it does seem to have some truth to it. Griffey's legs fell apart. Andruw's knees went bad (partially due to the extra weight he started carrying, but how much due to all those innings in CF too?). Carlos Beltran also starting having significant knee issues in his 30s. Sure, there are some counterexamples, but it definitely looks like teams are starting to view it as a risky position for superstar hitters.
If Super Joe Charboneau knew how to use a computer and wasn't too drunk to type, he'd have something to say to you right now.
No one is crying for Mike Trout, they are just astounded at how dumb the Angels are.
We're at a different stage for salaries, though. To be competitive a new league might need 8 teams, and to field major league caliber competition with a few stars, payroll for the league would have to top half a billion a year. Would existing stadiums, the second tier of them that aren't beholden to ML teams, then seat enough people to make the new league profitable? I suppose a lot of it comes down to the tv contract. I'm also sure someone's done the math on this in great and elaborate detail...
8 teams made up of top minor league and pre-arbitration major league talent might be interesting.
Imagine Trout and Harper ripping up those leagues while picking up $10M per for a couple years until they finally become MLB free agents. They both would have shots at 60-60 in a 140 game season. And the leagues could probably field teams for less than $30m per year.
Both teams also have superior defensive centerfielders. The Nationals didn't acquire Denard Span in order to keep Harper healthier.
The Minor Leaguers aren't in the bargaining unit. Can't do it, other than some provisions covering those with MLB service being sent to the minors.
Less wear and tear on Harper was an idea that appealed to the Nationals. Not the whole reason, or even the main one, to get Span, but it was a consideration.
Not really related to the situation here but I'm reminded of another odd story about a player after his first season. Rocco Baldelli had a solid first season for the Rays and finished third in the ROY voting; a nice rookie season but nothing spectacular that would make you expect a bonus from the team. The Rays gave him their standard raise, from $300k to $320k, but in the offer sheet they gave the players in their first three seasons included a small bonus (5k I think) if they actually signed the contract (the team could set the salary at whatever they wanted but the players had the option of not actually signing the offer though it wouldn't change anything). Baldelli refused to sign the offer and the only comment he made to the media was something like "My agent and I disagree with the team's offer". That was back when he was still represented by Boras. That always seemed like a bizarrely pointless thing to do, throwing away even a small amount of money to make an entirely insignificant protest.
Edit: Looked it up on Cots and it was actually a $20k bonus that Baldelli forfeited by refusing to sign the offer. Even more ridiculous.
What Yankee Clapper said in post #54. They knew Harper was a capable CF before they went out and got Span. If they didn't want to move Harper to LF to save his legs, they could have acquired a bigger bat for LF or even stuck with Morse for LF for another year. There's definitely an element of wanting to save Harper for the long term by putting him into LF instead of CF in the Nationals' moves.
And the Angels made the decision to trade Kendrys Morales rather than Bourjos, probably partially to move Trout to LF specifically. Rather than DHing Trumbo and playing Trout in LF with Bourjos in CF, the Angels could easily have traded Bourjos, and gone with Morales at DH and a Trumbo - Trout - Hamilton OF.
Neither team was pushed into this by a rigid roster; each team made specific moves to push these guys into LF.
$1M might be unprecented specficially, but there's a history noted in the article of similarly excellent first year players getting raises to over 2 times the minimum salary in their second seasons. One of the given examples is Pujols getting a raise to $600k when the league minimum was $200k. Pujols was making three times the league minimum, while $1M for Trout today would be just over twice the minimum salary. Jeter got a raise to over four times the minimum in his second year. $1M today is probably less than Pujols or Jeter were making if you adjust for salary inflation in MLB over the past 17 years.
I personally don't get either side of this; I don't see the need for the Rays, back in 2004 or now, to add a "signing bonus" or whatever you want to call it to the contract when it's entirely up to them what they pay the player. Who really cares if they agree to sign or not? On the player's side, why throw away any amount of money on a useless protest? I get Boras' angle (he prefers that his clients don't have a chummy relationship with team management and possibly be more inclined to accept a little less money in the future) and I doubt it's a coincidence that bother players I know of that did this were clients of his at the time but why do the players go along with the charade?
Who knows what he considered "fair" and where they were in the negotiations ?
Note:
Exactly. What is Landis' version of a compromise ? For all we know he was pushing for a 1.5 or 2.0 Million dollar deal, and as has been pointed out upthread, the accumulative effect of that down the road could be quite a large sum.
Who know what was the tone of the negotiations, and what stance Landis took ? By his tone in the quotes, my guess is he probably took quite a strong, and ultimately beligerant stance. He probably overshot his demands based on Trouts "historic" season, and when the team exercised their leverage to get his ass in line, he spouted off to the press.
Think about it. Arter Moreno isn't cheap. He isn't poor. The Angels have money. So the LOGICAL conlucsion is there is a lot more going on here than is presented in the article. At the end of the day, in business you have to judge people by their actions. This "action" by the Angels indicates clearly there is an issue with the agent, not the player.
My other guess is somewhere down the road, Arter Moreno pony's up and gives his GM the dollars necessary to keep Trout long term.
"We don't like your agent so we're gonna pay you $100,000 less than we would otherwise, sorry about that"? I'm not seeing it.
Frankly if I wereTrout I'd be looking for the Longoria deal right now. Because of his youth he can forgo a couple of FA seasons and still hit the market at 28. Sign a deal now and get the security then he still will have his shot at becoming the first 300 million dollar player.
C'mon Walt, you know thats not the way it works nor is that what I'm saying.
It's very simple. They couldn't come to agreement with the agent. Nobody pays an extra 100K , or any amount above the minimum, without the agent and player signing off on it as AGREEING to it. If they don't agree, the club can then exercise their right and just renew the contract.
Sometimes it hurts down the road, (see Prince Fielder), sometimes it doesn't, (See Carlos Gonzalez).
The fact is you and I don't know what Landis was pushing for or demanding, but clearly the Angels gave up the negotiation, and just renewed him knowing full well there would be a negative reaction, both in the press, and between the Team and Agent/Player. I mean really, do you or anyone else think they do not know there will be a negative reaction ? So WHY would they take that route. The answer is self evident. They were too far apart to get in agreement with Landis. So Landis must have been pushing for a very high number.
Again.....judge by the actions, and don't assume that somebody is "stupid".....even if you are not clearly "seeing it".
And Craig Landis and Chris Bourjos (Peter's father) played in the same outfield in 1980 in Phoenix (the Giants' AAA team at that time).
You can't acquire MLB service time by playing in another league.
The Longoria contract was the biggest heist in the history of major league baseball. Why would a player want to emulate that?
Also, it was signed like a week into Longoria's major league career, not after just putting up an all-time great season. If Trout's agent can't get a contract that is orders of magnitude higher than that, Trout really should fire him. Out of a cannon. Into the sun.
Milton Bradley used to do it all the time.
Howard was a Super 2, so his arb years were 10, 15, 19, and 20. For these purposes he's not a bad comp for Trout because he was an immediate star, winning ROY and then MVP the following year. The Phillies renewed him for 900K after his MVP year (up from 355K). Whether that bought them any good will is questionable - they went to a hearing the following year for Howard's Super 2, and lost. Howard of course signed multi-year deals with the team afterwards, so the relationship was never irreparably fractured (though he obviously didn't give them much of a hometown discount).
True, but merely anecdotal. For every Milton Bradley, Magglio Ordonez, Larry Walker, J.D. Drew that has a long, healthy career by virtue of playing RF you've got guys like Bobby Abreu, Sammy Sosa, Tony Gwynn and Gary Sheffield who just don't have much of a career after 5-6 years of playing RF.
Ooooh, boo-f*ckin hoo. He got paid a signing bonus of over 1.2 million dollars before he took his first professional swing, and by the way, he was seventeen years old at the time.
This is how the system works in the game, by agreement of the players and the owners: a kid has to put in his dues for a few years and prove himself before he gets paid the permanent life-changing CEO compensation money. Just get over it.
I'll say it again. The Angels are being mind-numbingly stupid.
They have a 20 y.o. who is the best player in MLB, and they just pissed him off to save a few hundred grand. It's pure stupidity.
Why would Trout care about "poisoning the waters" with the Angels? He can go to arb, and probably beat them every time. He can then sign with 29 other teams when the time comes. There won't be any other players like Trout for the Angels to sign.
In case you weren't just looking for an opportunity to make a Joe Charboneau reference, the fact you had to go back 30 years to find someone is strong support for his statement.
Really? You reward employees for doing a good job. I know that baseball has weird unique economics, but still.
More common are pitchers like Ubaldo Jimenez or Scott Kazmir, who were woefully underpaid with their first team and have since been cashing big checks for being terrible with their second.
You'd figure the phenomenon of being totally ripped off would be less common among position players, who are less likely to blow a gasket after 2 or 3 great early years. Grady Sizemore might be the "most exploited" position player. He got paid peanuts for being an outstanding all-round player early on with Cleveland, and then earned only modestly well as he fell off the map: $28M overall for 26.5 WAR. And that, too, is over $27M more than most people earn in a lifetime.
I don't have a strong opinion about how much Trout should get, but I doubt that many players are severely screwed by the current deal. Examples like Sizemore and Webb, who failed to cash in at the ultra-mega level, are relatively too bad, but then neither one of them could play baseball well after a very young age. There's a reason non-great lesser stars like Johnny Damon make over $100M in their careers; they're employable for a long, long time.
It works that way through the agreement of "players", but not players like Trout, who didn't have any say in the rules on pre-arb compensation until he actually made it onto a ML roster.
But he did sign a very team-friendly extension with them earlier, giving up many of his free agent years. The Cardinals made out like absolute bandits on Pujols - the Angels would love for Trout to do what Pujols did.
Furthermore, if I were to apply that tag, I'd be more inclined to apply it to Trouts agent, for publicly poisoning the waters.
Just again since we go through this every time there's an agent comment, these agents aren't saying anything without the approval of the client, tacit approval at least.
True, but irrelevant. Every union works this way; the new members have to abide by whatever agreement is in place at the time. He can almost certainly have a voice in the next CBA if he wants it.
If Trout continues to perform at anywhere remotely close to last year's level, he's going to become one of the highest paid players in history, if not the highest, so the whining is absurd. In the meantime, he's just going to have to find a way to eke out a hardscrabble living on his paltry $510,000 salary this year. Maybe he can apply for food stamps or something.
He left because they lowballed him after previously signing a long extension on very team-favorable terms.
McDowell possibly was underpaid (though he too earned more than $28M for 25.6 WAR, in the 1990s, and he was a good but overrated pitcher). He probably had grievances relative to the rest of the league. And he was a bit ill-starred. Had the Sox kept him in the majors all along, he would have been a FA in the strike winter of 1994-95, not the best of times. His highest-earning years (quite good ones for the era) were the strike years, which cost him still more; and then, after signing a decent but unlavish 2-year deal with Cleveland, he stopped being a good player at the age of 30. Everything went wrong that could have, and he still earned $28 million.
On the contrary, the protest is stronger if you give up some money in order to make it. Anybody can mutter darkly when it doesn't cost them anything to do it; passing up a little money sends the signal that you're actually pissed off.
I think you might be underestimating the psychological effect of actually having a handshake and a little signing ceremony. It represents an end to the bargaining process and gives both sides the chance to chill out. If you never sign a contract, when do you abandon the feeling that you really ought to be getting a million bucks (for example) and anything less is unacceptable?
In Ubaldo's case, it's the same contract. (Though the Indians picked up the $5.75M option for 2013.) He was upset the Rockies did not extend the deal like they did with Tulo, then it ended up he was hurt in some way--he had lost velocity which has not returned with Indians.
The contract probably worked out fairly well for both sides (well, for the Rockies, not the Indians) despite Ubaldo being upset. He had security in the event of an injury. While he has not had an injury-ender, he's not looking too good.
The whining is a shot across the bow that the Angels have to take seriously just because Trout is so great, two-bit players don't complain, they have nothing to gain from it. But the Angels can't just ignore Trout.
It's a bit more complicated than that. Pujols signed a long-term deal during the mini-collusion period. His pay during the would-be FA years of that contract was comparable to what the Yankees agreed to pay A-Rod net of the Rangers' contribution, so his contract was supposed to have been at the ceiling for what players would get under the "new normal." Obviously baseball's austerity period didn't last that long though.
This is pure nonsense. You have no idea who would win an arbitration hearing without comparing the salaries that were filed.
Is that true? The problem with that scenario is that it assumes a lot of perfect information on all sides. Pujols wasn't on the market - he had no idea what other teams might offer him, and the Cardinals probably weren't whispering to him there was collusion going on so he might as well take this as he wasn't getting any more. It's probably inevitable that collusion may have had some effect in there, but that extension was predominantly about him wanting to be a Cardinal/La Russa player regardless and being willing to forgo some money to make it so.
If the team is forced to file a salary in line with what the player wants, he wins no matter who "wins" the hearing.
Might be even simpler than that. The Angels might be working on a long term deal for Trout right now, and they don't want to make it easier for him to say no. An extra half million "bonus" now might make it incrementally harder to get him signed to a team friendly deal this summer.
If the team is forced to file a salary in line with what the player wants, he wins no matter who "wins" the hearing.
The Chef provides the answer. If Trout goes to arb, the team offers are going to smash the Howard/Lincecum awards.
Might be even simpler than that. The Angels might be working on a long term deal for Trout right now, and they don't want to make it easier for him to say no. An extra half million "bonus" now might make it incrementally harder to get him signed to a team friendly deal this summer.
Then they miscalculated, b/c Trout and his agent are obviously pissed off.
He isn't allowed to join the union before he reaches the majors, but is nonetheless subject to terms negotiated by that organization for several years of his professional career, until he reaches that level. That is unfair, and atypical of the way unions normally operate. If players were allowed to join the MLBPA as soon as they turned pro, the MLBPA membership would probably do a better job of serving the interest of younger players.
Donald Trump has plenty of money, but that doesn't mean I'm allowed to stick my hand in his pocket and steal his wallet. Fair is fair, even for the rich.
I have no idea what the hell you're talking about; you're spouting a bunch of meaningless nonsense.
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