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Wednesday, October 16, 2019

Angels To Hire Joe Maddon

This is my surprised face. (⊙ _ ⊙)

Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 16, 2019 at 01:13 PM | 54 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: angels, joe maddon

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   1. The Duke Posted: October 16, 2019 at 11:41 AM (#5891062)
So funny that they dragged this out for two-three weeks when the answer was known so long ago. Maddon will not be able to cure the Trout curse. I don’t see them being a playoff force any time soon. I guess joe feels like his hall of game chances are good because he’s going to achieve nothing to further that ambition.
   2. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: October 16, 2019 at 11:51 AM (#5891065)
Are any of the young guys the Angels used in the rotation projected to be any good? Griffin Canning looks like he could be, but, I guess he is hurt? Is Ohtani going to pitch in 2020? It seems like the Angels need to do whatever they need to to get Cole to sign with them. They seriously need some starting pitching.
   3. asinwreck Posted: October 16, 2019 at 12:15 PM (#5891075)
I wonder how much of the delay was discussion of personnel matters, including possible free agent targets and the coaching staff. Given the Angels' clear desire to hire Maddon, I imagine he asked for input on both.
   4. JAHV Posted: October 16, 2019 at 12:19 PM (#5891077)
Are any of the young guys the Angels used in the rotation projected to be any good? Griffin Canning looks like he could be, but, I guess he is hurt?


Canning should be a cromulent #3 or 4 starter. He was shut down last season when it became clear that the Angels weren't going to win anything. Ohtani is on track to pitch next season as far as I've heard.

Then the Angels have a bunch of guys, some of whom have a little promise but were rushed due to the Angels' lack of pitching depth (Suarez and Sandoval), some of whom are probably just guys that will ride the AAA shuttle (Barria). Ideally, they'd sign two starters this offseason and go into it with Heaney, Ohtani, Canning, Free Agent 1, Free Agent 2, and the rest of the young guys battling for the 6th starter/swingman role.
   5. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 16, 2019 at 12:28 PM (#5891081)
Wonder how Mike Trout will feel about playing 25 games at third base every year.
   6. JAHV Posted: October 16, 2019 at 12:33 PM (#5891083)
So funny that they dragged this out for two-three weeks when the answer was known so long ago.


MLB has requested that teams not announce things like this on days when there are playoff games. This was probably done very shortly after the season finished, but there have been games every day until now, when it was only announced after they postponed game 4 of the ALCS.
   7. Rally Posted: October 16, 2019 at 01:15 PM (#5891094)
Angels were not the only team in the division coming into the season with limited starting pitching depth. They signed Matt Harvey and Trevor Cahill for 11 and 9 million respectively, and for that money ended up with 160 innings with a combined ERA over 6.

Oakland meanwhile spent 2/14 on Mike Fiers and only 1.5 million for Brett Anderson, and ended up with 360 innings with an ERA around 3.90. They also spent 4 million on Marco Estrada who had a 6.85 ERA, but they were able to cut bait after 5 starts. In any case, they spent less on those 3 than the Angels did on their 2.

Oakland either had a lot more luck, knows a lot more about which low tier free agents are worth giving one or 2 year contracts to, or does a better job coaching performance out of these guys and supporting them defensively. And then they even got cromulent performace out of mid season pickups Homer Bailey and Tanner Roark. Bailey in particular, nobody thought he would contribute anything in 2019 after a 1-14, 6.09 season with the Reds, and the only reason he was still in the league was that his contract had another year left.

At the trade deadline Oakland picked those guys up, the Angels made no moves to bolster the rotation. Since they finished 25 games behind the A's it's easy to say that they were out of it and wisely held on to their prospects.

Looking back though, on 7/24, during the ramp up to the trade deadline, the Angels were 54-49. Only 4.5 games behind Oakland for a wild card spot. They probably weren't going to make any noise but you never know. In addition to putting the Angels behind early in games, lack of viable starting options demoralized the team and overworked the bullpen. If the team had stayed in the race, it's quite possible that Mike Trout would have played through his late season injury.

Instead the Angels went into a 4 game series against the Orioles, at home, with Detroit on deck for 3 more. They lost the first game in 16 innings with outfielder Stevie Wilkerson closing out the game with 50 MPH pitches. Lost 3 of 4, then lost 2 of 3 against the even worse Tigers. Went on the road and dropped the next 7.

A couple of cromulent starting pitchers wasn't going to change that, but before the Orioles series they certainly looked like a team that might compete. Had they taken 6 or 7 or something from those terrible teams the Angels would have been 60-50.
   8. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 16, 2019 at 01:18 PM (#5891095)
Cubs will now hire Brad Ausmus in accordance with the "Bang your ex's new partner's ex" strategy.
   9. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2019 at 01:23 PM (#5891096)
Reported as $12M over 3 years, or $4M a season. Not as good as what he made with the Cubs, but towards the top of the managerial scale.
   10. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2019 at 01:31 PM (#5891100)
   11. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 16, 2019 at 01:52 PM (#5891103)
Cubs will now hire Brad Ausmus in accordance with the "Bang your ex's new partner's ex" strategy.
The line for Ausmus starts behind BBC.
   12. Zonk isn't Defacing the Nation Posted: October 16, 2019 at 01:54 PM (#5891104)
If 3/12 would have kept him in Chicago, I would have paid 3/12.... not that I necessarily foresee Joe having agreed with extension that includes a ~30% pay cut.
   13. Traderdave Posted: October 16, 2019 at 02:35 PM (#5891113)
G. Cole is from Orange County, have there been any rumors about signing him? Or rather, rumors about his willingness to play at home?
   14. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 16, 2019 at 02:39 PM (#5891115)
I'm sure Cole would be willing to play at home if the Angels offer him the most money.
   15. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 16, 2019 at 03:10 PM (#5891123)
Bad choice, but I guess it's their mistake to make.
   16. bunyon Posted: October 16, 2019 at 03:12 PM (#5891125)
Bad choice for Maddon, too. They're possibly looking at a bad couple years.

   17. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: October 16, 2019 at 03:21 PM (#5891129)
Canning is unlikely to be ace material, but #4 seems to be overly pessimistic to me. He was striking out more than a batter an inning in his only minor league season, and this year he was roughly league average (maybe even a tick better) over an admittedly abbreviated 90 innings. A team with playoff aspirations will want someone to slot in ahead of him, but he's got the makings of a good pitcher.
   18. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 16, 2019 at 03:36 PM (#5891134)
I'm guessing the delay could have been because most, if not all, teams looking for a manager may have reached out. Also, Maddon is a self-professed odd-ball who likes to travel via his RV after the season either to both Hazelton and Tampa. It was a "charming" anecdote when the Cubs hired him that Theo/Jed met Maddon in some random RV park somewhere to interview/hammer out the details of his hiring.

If 3/12 would have kept him in Chicago, I would have paid 3/12.... not that I necessarily foresee Joe having agreed with extension that includes a ~30% pay cut.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, but money shouldn't be - and almost certainly wasn't - a reason to keep or hire him for the Cubs (or honestly, any team). His salary at its highest is still just a small percent of even the cheapest team's baseball operations budget.
   19. PreservedFish Posted: October 16, 2019 at 03:36 PM (#5891135)
Bad choice for Maddon, too.


Why? Winning isn't everything. He goes somewhere he's appreciated, an organization he's familiar with, with comparatively lesser expectations and lower stress.
   20. TJ Posted: October 16, 2019 at 04:18 PM (#5891147)
LA Times reported at 9:22 AM CDT that a deal was "not imminent". At 10:30 CDT the Angels announced the Maddon hire. Looks like "imminent" arrives at some point within an hour in LA...


Personally, I can't wait to see Maddon go all Madddon and play Mike Trout at center field, third base and catcher over a four-inning span.
   21. JAHV Posted: October 16, 2019 at 04:21 PM (#5891148)
Canning is unlikely to be ace material, but #4 seems to be overly pessimistic to me. He was striking out more than a batter an inning in his only minor league season, and this year he was roughly league average (maybe even a tick better) over an admittedly abbreviated 90 innings. A team with playoff aspirations will want someone to slot in ahead of him, but he's got the makings of a good pitcher.


Maybe, we'll see. I might be under-rating him because it feels like the last above average pitcher to come out of the Angels system was Jered Weaver. So I don't dare to dream. I'm just hoping his arm doesn't fall off.
   22. eric Posted: October 16, 2019 at 04:25 PM (#5891149)
He goes somewhere he's appreciated, an organization he's familiar with, with comparatively lesser expectations and lower stress.


And gets to manage a GOAT-contender, on a team that seems willing to spend $ (likely with some say in the matter), and if a miracle occurs and he gets another WS victory perhaps an HOF induction is in the cards.

On a more pessimistic bent, I think it makes the Angels the favorite to land Cole so that they can perform their own variation of the late-90's Mariners: have a handful of great players on a team that wins about 80/85 games.
   23. bunyon Posted: October 16, 2019 at 05:56 PM (#5891164)
I think this is a bad time to join the Angels. A bit like asking to be helicoptered out to the Titanic a couple of days out of port.

It's all based on my suspicion that we're going to find out some ugly things about the Angels FO and clubhouse over the next year.
   24. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2019 at 06:03 PM (#5891166)
It's all based on my suspicion that we're going to find out some ugly things about the Angels FO and clubhouse over the next year.
That would be stuff that happened before Maddon got to LA (unless it goes back decades and it now comes out that Maddon was involved). Maddon would be the White Knight, given a free hand while the front office is distracted by cleaning up its own mess.
   25. bunyon Posted: October 16, 2019 at 06:16 PM (#5891168)
Sure, he wouldn’t be blamed. But who wants to be around that?
   26. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 16, 2019 at 06:23 PM (#5891169)
A bit like asking to be helicoptered out to the Titanic a couple of days out of port.
Which would be a particularly terrible idea, given that the first successful helicopter flight of more than about 15 feet wasn't for another 25 years.
   27. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: October 16, 2019 at 06:32 PM (#5891171)
Sure, he wouldn’t be blamed. But who wants to be around that?

It is an easy commute from his home in Long Beach.
   28. Sunday silence Posted: October 16, 2019 at 07:57 PM (#5891182)
Since when does taking RV trips in the off season make one a weirdo?
   29. PreservedFish Posted: October 16, 2019 at 08:13 PM (#5891186)
But who wants to be around that?


There's a reason people watch shows like Kitchen Nightmares, Hoarders and Tidying Up. Feels great to get into a mess and clean it the #### up.
   30. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 16, 2019 at 08:21 PM (#5891188)
There's a reason people watch shows like Kitchen Nightmares, Hoarders and Tidying Up. Feels great to get into a mess and clean it the #### up.
It's fun to watch other people do that.
   31. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: October 16, 2019 at 08:38 PM (#5891190)
Maybe, we'll see. I might be under-rating him because it feels like the last above average pitcher to come out of the Angels system was Jered Weaver.

Are Tyler Chatwood and Garrett Richards above average? Matt Shoemaker? I guess you're right.
   32. Jack Sommers Posted: October 16, 2019 at 09:35 PM (#5891196)
   33. SoSH U at work Posted: October 16, 2019 at 10:38 PM (#5891203)
if a miracle occurs and he gets another WS victory perhaps an HOF induction is in the cards.


If he wins a second WS with another club, after having piloted a third to its only pennant, the only way he's not getting the Cooperstown call is if Vlad* is heading up the Veteran's Committee.

Ours, not the Hall of Famer.

   34. Walt Davis Posted: October 17, 2019 at 01:07 AM (#5891206)
It seems like the Angels need to do whatever they need to to get Cole to sign with them.

It's a pretty deep class for pitching and, given how little they have, they might be better off signing 2-3 cheaper guys (to shorter contracts) than one big splash.
   35. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 17, 2019 at 01:26 AM (#5891208)
You mean like Matt Harvey and Trevor Cahill?
   36. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: October 17, 2019 at 03:06 AM (#5891210)
You mean like Matt Harvey and Trevor Cahill?

No, more like Tanner Roark and Homer Bailey.
   37. Rally Posted: October 17, 2019 at 09:04 AM (#5891226)
I, for one, would welcome Vladimir Guerrero as head of the veteran’s committee. He’s got a much better shot at the job than our Vlad, since he is a HOFer. And I certainly welcome replacing LaRussa.
   38. SoSH U at work Posted: October 17, 2019 at 10:33 AM (#5891254)

He’s got a much better shot at the job than our Vlad, since he is a HOFer.


We don't know for certain that ours isn't in the Hall. It's possible Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) is not his real name, and is actually the nom de plume of Rich Gossage.

   39. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 17, 2019 at 10:37 AM (#5891255)
It's possible Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) is not his real name, and is actually the nom de plume of Rich Gossage.
So all the get-off-my-lawn anti-analytics ranting is a ruse to keep his online identity secret...it makes sense.
   40. Scott Lange Posted: October 17, 2019 at 11:22 AM (#5891272)
If he wins a second WS with another club, after having piloted a third to its only pennant, the only way he's not getting the Cooperstown call is if Vlad* is heading up the Veteran's Committee.


For real. He's 40th all-time in wins. Assuming he gets at least 200 wins over the three-year Angels contract (67 wins/year), he'll be 27th, and ahead of Whitey Herzog, Miller Huggins, and Billy Martin. If he manages 76 wins for three years he'll pass Earl Weaver too. Plus, you know, a pennant with Tampa (!) and a World Series for the Cubs (!!). I'd peg his chances at no lower than 80% as we sit here, and they'll approach 100% if he has any success with the Angels at all.
   41. JAHV Posted: October 17, 2019 at 11:33 AM (#5891276)
Are Tyler Chatwood and Garrett Richards above average? Matt Shoemaker? I guess you're right.


Garrett Richards probably counts, but again, he can't stay healthy. So Weaver came up in, what, 2006? In the 13 years since then, they've developed one guy who you can legitimately call a #2 pitcher, and even that's a bit of a stretch since the guy can't stay on the field. There are some other guys they drafted and traded away young, but it's questionable as to how much development came with the other team (Corbin, Clevinger, Chatwood). It's been a tough run.
   42. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 17, 2019 at 11:34 AM (#5891277)
they've developed one guy who you can legitimately call a #2 pitcher
I've definitely seen Chatwood pitch some #2.
   43. Rally Posted: October 17, 2019 at 01:45 PM (#5891344)
Clevinger is a guy who completely developed in Cleveland. There's no reason, looking at his numbers with the Angels, to think he would be a valuable pitcher. Corbin took a big step forward in 2018, throwing his great slider much more often. But he looked very good from the time he started in the organization and it's no surprise he turned out to be a good one.

Corbin was part of the Dan Haren trade. Haren has been out of baseball for 4 years and threw his last pitch for the Angels 7 years ago. He was good for a few years, and the Angels were initially on the positive side of trade reviews. I remember a lot of blog space wasted on the theme "Diamondbacks are so dumb they gave up Haren for Joe Saunders because they think a pitcher's W-L record is meaningful". Obviously looking back the Angels should have held on to the prospects and they'd at least have one reliable arm in the rotation. Though I suppose they could have tried to outbid the Nats on Corbin last offseason.

Corbin was part of the same draft that brought in Mike Trout. Corbin, Richards, Skaggs, Grichuk - that's an outstanding draft even if they had passed on the New Jersey high schooler.

That group has only slightly fewer combined WAR than the Nationals got with Strasburg, Michael A. Taylor, and Drew Storen. Nationals also picked a good HS shortstop in the 18th round, but Marcus Stroman decided to go to college and focus on pitching instead.
   44. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 17, 2019 at 02:03 PM (#5891354)
Chatwood has more career starts than Richards, with a similar ERA+. Once you correct for Cubs fans thinking that the only baseball that counts is games involving the Cubs, he's been a legitimate starter.
   45. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 17, 2019 at 02:04 PM (#5891356)
Wonder how Mike Trout will feel about playing 25 games at third base every year.


Unbelievably, the Angels' 3B (someone named David Fletcher) was second on the team in WAR last year.
   46. donlock Posted: October 17, 2019 at 05:49 PM (#5891424)
Don't get this reference. Who or what is BBC?

Cubs will now hire Brad Ausmus in accordance with the "Bang your ex's new partner's ex" strategy.
The line for Ausmus starts behind BBC.
   47. SoSH U at work Posted: October 17, 2019 at 05:51 PM (#5891426)
Don't get this reference. Who or what is BBC?


baseball chick. She is quite fond of Bradley.
   48. JAHV Posted: October 17, 2019 at 06:10 PM (#5891428)
Unbelievably, the Angels' 3B (someone named David Fletcher) was second on the team in WAR last year.


David Fletcher is a bit of a late bloomer, and he's a throwback player, but he's pretty darned good. Ideally, he'd be behind Trout, Simmons (was hobbled much of the year by a sprained ankle), Ohtani, and a pitcher or two in WAR. But he plays great defense and is a fantastic contact hitter. I don't think it's a stretch to anticipate him putting up 3 - 4 WAR seasons for the next few years.
   49. GregD Posted: October 17, 2019 at 06:38 PM (#5891431)
He's 65 and is going to get paid $12 million to manage the team closest to his house....that doesn't sound like a rushing onto the Titanic situation to me. Maybe at worst a Phil cashing in on the Knicks scenario, and the angels are far better than those horrid Knicks.
   50. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 17, 2019 at 07:45 PM (#5891435)
   51. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 17, 2019 at 08:05 PM (#5891439)
Huh. I wonder what innovative approaches a porn star will bring to the job.
   52. Walt Davis Posted: October 18, 2019 at 02:09 AM (#5891515)
Since when does taking RV trips in the off season make one a weirdo?

1972.

   53. Zonk isn't Defacing the Nation Posted: October 18, 2019 at 09:06 AM (#5891534)
Chatwood has more career starts than Richards, with a similar ERA+. Once you correct for Cubs fans thinking that the only baseball that counts is games involving the Cubs, he's been a legitimate starter.


You are legitimately welcome to have him back.
   54. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 18, 2019 at 09:49 AM (#5891541)
I remember briefly having hopes that Tingler could manage a fourth outfielder career - smart player who maximized what very little gifts he had (could make contact, tried to draw walks). Kind of like a slower (maybe smaller!) John Cangelosi. (Which is why he topped out in AA.)

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