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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Thursday, June 05, 2008
Boston center fielder Coco Crisp was hit on the right hip by Tampa Bay right-hander James Shields, prompting a benches-clearing brawl in the second inning of their game Thursday night.
Crisp dropped his bat, charged the mound, ducked a wild right by Shields before throwing a few punches before being tackled to the ground by catcher Dioner Navarro.
Rays DH Jonny Gomes charged the mound from the dugout, jumped on Navarro and Crisp and threw a few punches.
...
Shields and Crisp were both ejected. Chris Carter pinch-ran for Crisp and Grant Balfour replaced Shields.
MLB.com: Crisp, Shields involved in fracas (with video)
If that wasn’t enough excitement, Manny Ramirez and Kevin Youkilis got into it in the dugout.
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And I don't just say that because my team is in the AL East.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2008_06_05_tbamlb_bosmlb_1&mode=gameday
Just click on the video tab and then click on "Ray-Sox Incident".
Of course, the one NESN announcer also wonders if Shields will get ejected from the game for HBP - apparently not remembering Shields was throwing punches :P
Mass ejections in a game like this do lead to the amusing sights of things like Chris Carter (considered defensively challenged at 1B) in LF. An outfield of Carter-Drew-Youkilis is probably not what a pitcher wants lined up behind him.
ah, forgot about that (Coco said he was going for Bartlett, which threw me off). Still, those were some rabbit punches, which is pretty funny.
I really disagree with the notion that Coco could have ended this if he just went to the mound. Of course it would be over, but you can't just let guys obviously throw at you whenever they feel like it. Would have been interesting to see if Shields got tossed without the brawl. Didn't look like he would be.
I guess you could call Navarro, Gomes, and Aki snap, crackle, and pop.
And I don't expect Navarro to get a long suspension, as he can just claim he was trying to restrain the aggressor.
Go Rays. (Both teams that I care about suck wildly...so screw the Red Sox and Coco Crisp. Gomes and Iwamura are mensches as far as I'm concerned.
But then maybe I'm just in a bad mood.
Carter was an OFer before he moved to LF becuase of an injury to his throwing shoulder. The Sox have been playing him exclusively in the OF in AAA. Ellsbury left becuase he hurt himself in teh field; it's unrelated to the dust up.
Sheilds also hit Pedroia (another case of hitting the wrong middle infielder); I'm surprised warnings weren't issued then. I would have much prefered to have Coco take his base, and then steal 2B, and clean out whoever covers like he did last night.
Ummmmm... what happened with Manny and Youkilis?
My current working theory is that since Ramirez didn't hit the field during the brawl until it was almost over, Youkilis probably made a comment along the lines of "The rest of the team was out there together, where were you?", which didn't go over well.
Nah, it's just that he's stopped swinging for the fences. When he was 2-3 HR short of 500, his approach at the plate went to all hell as he tried to swing for a home run every time he got ahead in the count. Since he got #500 out of the way, he's been locked in.
Besides, in that AB he had to expect to get hit, right?
All in all though, it was incredibly dumb for Sheilds to go after Coco in his first AB, and allowing the Sox to feast on the Tampa bullpen all night, and before they go to Texas and Anaheim, too.
Virtually every manager in baseball was going to have Crisp drilled. It's one of the "unwritten rules".
Just to provide context, he said he was calling them that because they were trying to scratch his eyes while Navarro had him pinned to the ground. He had scratch marks on his face, FWIW.
This from the man who lauds Coco for starting a brawl because he "took it like a G."
Yes, the ground could have also been scratching them. No doubt they were trying to hurt him, Gomes wasn't scratching, Imawura wasn't scratching, they were trying to hurt him, for taking out their middle infielder and charging their pitcher on consecutive evenings.
My favorite part of the postgame presser was Coco saying once he was tackled, the fight was over. As if everyone should just stand up and walk away. He charged the mound, he has to take the medicine.
This isn't the NHL.
Maybe this is true. But I fail to see how starting a fight, getting clobbered, and then complaining to the media that your opponent fought dirty would GAIN any respect amongst ones peers. I guess you live by a different set of rules.
Shields is lucky the punch didn't land because he threw with his pitching hand, which is just stupid.
No kidding. Coco is a little #####. The fight is completely his fault. He is the only one who should be suspended. The league won't do that because they have an asinine suspension policy but I believe that blame should be placed inequitably and in this case one person is 100% at fault and everyone else acted as they should.
Like I said next time Coco hits the deck and the ball is at his head.
No kidding. Coco is a little #####. The fight is completely his fault. He is the only one who should be suspended. The league won't do that because they have an asinine suspension policy but I believe that blame should be placed inequitably and in this case one person is 100% at fault and everyone else acted as they should.
Gomes should probably get a couple games too.
If no one lands a punch, no one wins.
Shields looked fine to me. See post #50.
I saw two guys throw punches, miss, and quickly get tackled by players from the other team. I guess if you were running Compubox stats, Crisp may have won for glancing Shield's shoulders. But most non-sociopaths would admit that BOTH of them lost for letting this situation happen.
It looked like he was scraping with his hands open on one side shortly after he dove in, while Gomes was trying to throw haymakers on the other side. Crawford, meanwhile, was trying to get in little rabbit punches to the back of the head. His efforts were the most grade school playground in appearance.
Imawura hit him in the ribs. then was pulled off by someone, unless he got back into the pile, he got exactly one shot off.
The fact that Shields was surrounded by his teammates has nothing to do with luck, and it's one of the inherent risks of charging the mound.
Well, it was incredibly dumb to do it then because of the game situation.
Moreso with the Pedroia plunking, if that was intentional (I belieive it was, and the Rays homer announcers even said it was)
If by winning the fight you mean getting his ass beat on the bottom of a pile of DRays, you are correct.
Bartlett made a mistake when losing body control while trying to reach back across his body to take a throw. Now Coco has raised it to the current state. Can't wait to see how far it goes from here.
Is what Coco did the night before a specific violation of MLB rules, or more of an etiquette issue (similar to Bartlett's)? I don't know that it's really anything MLB should be issuing discipline over. Obviously, he should get tagged with a pretty good suspension for this one (as should Gomes, with lesser penalties to Crawford and Iwamura and anyone else acting in a non-peacekeeping capacity).
And reading a spirited debate over who won this fight makes me less ridiculous about participating in a discussion about the 2005 AL East division race earlier today.
Given his post-game comments last night, I'd be surprised if it were not considered. But then again, I was surprised that no pre-game warnings were given out before tonight's game.
I thought so.
Guess there aren't a lot of Cubs fans here tonight.
Next.
It's amazing how much hatred is engendered by winning.
How about finding something better to do...I don't know...maybe grow some ugly 70's porn 'staches or something.
Here is a link to his post game comments
Now, maybe you only saw them in print. But he actually delivers a pretty humorous, impartial recap of what went on and he describes everything in a pretty matter-of-fact manner. I'm not sure why this would be your biggest beef.
Those little girls tried to pull my hair and scratch my face after the fight should have been over? That's impartial?
I have no idea what actually happened at the bottom of the pile, but it seems like a stretch to assume that's an impartial account.
My hand is raised, even though I wasn't moved to "lay down smack" about what a douchesack Coco Crisp is until I saw your elementary school post. Huzzah, masswipe!
Wait... he is the guy who has taken the most medicine over the course of the entire situation. Careless defense buy a Bartlet very well could have resulted in a DL stint, followed by a pitcher deliberatly throwing at you. That is more medicine than anyone on the rays have taken.
I'm very disapointed in every redsox but Coco Crisp. The rest of the team acted like a bunch of pusses with sand in their viginia's. Gomes should get one in the ####### ear... well thats harsh and I guess I don't mean it. ####### thug.
Why he is saying it is between him and Shields, I have no idea.
You left out the part where he spiked Iwamura, and bragged to reporters post-game about how he was ready to respond "tick for tack" ala Mike Tyson. A victim he is not.
Rich, let me explain to your feeble brain the difference between the Johnson play and the Duncan play.
The Johnson play, was made in an attempt to show the higher ups that he will lay his body on the line for the teams chance to win. Which is the exact same reason why the "promising young catcher" was blocking the plate. If it is Posada and Carlos Pena you likely don't see that.
The Duncan play was done with the intent to injury. Period. I wouldn't say that nearly as strongly if 1) Duncan didn't come out in the press and run his mouth. 2) Didn't attempt to "stretch" on a play where there was ZERO chance he would actually be safe and CLEARLY only wanted the chance to mame.
Johnson, should be patted on the back. So should the "promising young catcher". Duncan should be suspended for 40 games.
Whats the difference between the Crisp play last night, and the Duncan play earlier in the year? Besides the symbol on their cap?
In the side. It's not like Shields went head-hunting.
The "unwritten rules" said Crisp had to be hit, so Shields hit him in a relatively benign location.
If Crisp had just taken his base, he wouldn't be facing suspension, and the Red Sox wouldn't be forced to play roster roulette with their outfield for the foreseeable future.
Good point, though as I mentioned in the other thread, it was nice to see a player admit what he was doing rather than pretend it was an accident.
And while his description tonight wasn't impartial, I also wouldn't call it complaining. It seemed rather an explanation of what happened from his perspective, which is naturally going to be skewed.
I agree. It's one of those things you where you need to see the interview to appreciate. In print, he comes across as whiny. On film, it's obvious he was just trying to act tough...i.e. "It's just a scratch"
Well then he and Richie Sexson can console themselves with this once they're bought out of their contracts for pennies on the dollar. That's much better than being respected for the meaningless things, like say hitting a baseball.
Bartlett drops a knee in front of the base trying to snare an errant throw from the catcher. Crisp doesn't like it, fair enough. Doesn't give him carte blanche to spike Bartlett, let alone the entirely uninvolved Iwamura. That kind of thing, you chew the guys ass out, you ##### about him to the media. You don't respond to "a little shady" with "full intent to hurt".
Regardless of all that, if he wants to go by the "unwritten rules" Crisp should have known he'd get nailed tonight after nailing Iwamura. I agree with NTNGod; every manager in MLB would have ordered that HBP. Once he clearly laid out Iwamura (and talked about it to the press afterward), by the unwritten rules he had to "take his lickin'", as he likes to put it. If it was up near his head, I could see charging the mound, but the right hip? As near as I can see the only ones properly going by the unwritten rules are the Rays, and Coco Crisp is simply running amok.
Why should Tampa still be upset? Bartlett got his knee in the way, Crisp responded with the high slide, the Devil Rays hit Coco and Coco charged the mound but no major blows were exchanged by either side. It seems whatever balance was still owed was collected by Gomes, Iwamura and Crawford while Coco was pinned to the ground.
That seems like an overall fair exchange.
I agree. It'd be best for all involved to just move on.
What I want to see is Manny - on his way out to LF due to Coco getting suspended like a dimwit - stop at 1B and flatten Youkilis with a sharp jab before continuing out to the field.
Makes me glad that Jim Edmonds hasn't sucked with the Cubs, so we won't get stuck with the inevitable overpay trade for Crisp for no apparent reason and no apparent upgrade.
Frankly, Coco charging the mound was pretty smart. This way, his pitcher doesn't have to drill anyone in retaliation AND he gets the Rays pitcher ejected in the 2nd inning.
This is a team that has never had even a whiff of first place's ass before, and they're stupid enough to, while locked in a battle with the team that just took first place from them, let their second best pitcher drill the, what, number 8 hitter(?) in the second inning of the game! Sheeesh.
This is a team that hates prosperity.
Coco charging the mound was smart. It gave the Red Sox a better shot at winning the game. Drilling Coco with your starter in the second inning, in what was obviously retaliation(and Shields, the moron, was even stupid enough to admit it was intentional to reporters)was stupid. Really stupid. You do that in the seventh inning or something. You don't concede the frakking game for macho nonsense.
And had Coco not charged the mound he would have placed pressure on his starter to also act like an idiot. Once again plowing into the second baseman would have just injured a second baseman and gotten Coco drilled in the fifth inning when he faced Shields again.
If you think you are the best team, you don't get involved in fights like this, you have far more to lose than the lesser team. If the Ray's fall out of contention, every one of the Sox stars will have a bullseye on them the rest of the season.
Yankees's fans must be rejoicing tonight. This time it was someone else's girlie name scrub doing the bone-headed retaliatory play and endangering a team's best players.
more Boston Herald:
Tampa Tribune:If the Rays win the division, I imagine this game will be pointed to in the media as a turning point in the season - the night a young roster came together as a team, or somesuch.
If? You mean when. Boston is still a clearly superior team and if we forgot, just swept the Rays pretty comfortably in three games.
If the Rays win the division, I imagine this game will be pointed to in the media as a turning point in the season - the night a young roster came together as a team, or somesuch.
Wouldn't it follow that they should, you know, win the game?
No.
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