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Tuesday, August 22, 2006

AP: Gibbons and Lilly get into argument

Does Gibbons view his roster as players he’s supposed to manage, or a bunch of sparring partners?  :P
Perhaps he’s been watching the ROCKY BALBOA trailer too often?
“Let’s start building some hurting bombs!”

Blue Jays manager John Gibbons wound up with a bloody nose after tangling with Toronto pitcher Ted Lilly near the dugout during Monday night’s game against Oakland. It was not known whether any punches were thrown in the tunnel leading to the clubhouse.

Lilly was pulled in the third inning, when the Athletics scored seven runs to close to 8-7. Gibbons chewed out the pitcher, who refused to give him the ball.

When Lilly left the mound for the locker room, Gibbons followed him. A team trainer and a number of players then ran down the stairs.

Cameramen near the dugout saw Gibbons push Lilly first.
...
Gibbons challenged infielder Shea Hillenbrand to a fight in July after Hillenbrand wrote on the clubhouse bulletin board that the “ship was sinking.”

MLB.com video of the incident is linked to on this page
NOTE: updated intro with latest revision of AP story

NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:14 AM | 98 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays

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   1. Juan V Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:23 AM (#2151223)
I see the Toronto clubhouse is a happy place, bursting with team chemistry...
   2. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:33 AM (#2151246)
I can't imagine why Vernon Wells doesn't want to stick around.
   3. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:33 AM (#2151249)
Man, the first time you can chalk it up to Shea being crazy. The second time you have to start questioning Gibbons' credibility in managing a clubhouse.
   4. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:34 AM (#2151250)
I'm beginning--just beginning--to suspect that Gibbons may be a bit of a ####
   5. Halofan Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:36 AM (#2151252)
How does Oakland luck into these situations?
   6. Juan V Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:38 AM (#2151259)
How does Oakland luck into these situations?


Luck? It´s a market inneficiency :)
   7. Urban Faber Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:40 AM (#2151263)
Maybe the Jays can trade for the younger Barfield. Add even more feistiness to that clubhouse.
   8. RichRifkin Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:44 AM (#2151270)
This is a very wild game going on in Toronto. The Blue Jays led 8-0 after two innings. Oakland came back, made it 7-8, then went ahead in the top of the 6th, 11-8. Then in the bottom of the 6th Toronto scored two runs to make it 11-10. The Jays are now hitting in the bottom of the 7th (still 11-10) as I type.
   9. FJ Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:46 AM (#2151272)
Gibbons argued with Lilly on the mound and later in the tunnel leading to the clubhouse after the pitcher left the game. A team trainer and a few players raced down the stairs of the tunnel after Gibbons followed Lilly. A television camera later showed Gibbons with a bloody nose.
...
Gibbons challenged infielder Shea Hillenbrand to a fight in July after Hillenbrand wrote on the clubhouse bulletin board that the “ship was sinking."


I guess Lilly took him up on his challenge :^).

F
   10. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:47 AM (#2151276)
Gibbons is just angry that he wasn't invited to the 1986 Mets reunion. He played some crucial October innings that year, dammit. Well, one inning anyway.
   11. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:50 AM (#2151280)
If you're JP, you can 1) cover it up and say nothing happened between Lilly and Gibbons. You undercut Gibbons by effectively letting a player punch your manager w/o any reprecussions but the franchise saves face publicly through your attempts to undermine media reports. 2) Suspend Lilly for insubordination. You back your manager but convey a public image of a clubhouse out of control. Or 3) fire Gibbons now or at the end of the season. W/O knowing the details of the fight, 3 is looking enticing if I'm JP.
   12. Backlasher Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:50 AM (#2151281)
How long before JP calls somebody an idiot?
   13. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:54 AM (#2151284)
i could take Gibbons
   14. FJ Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:54 AM (#2151287)
How long before JP calls somebody an idiot?


Well, since nobody "dissed" him in the press, it'll probably be until someone actually comments on him :^).

F
   15. karkface killah Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:58 AM (#2151289)
Billy Beane got ripped off in the Bonderman trade.

Keith Law is an idiot.

Computer baseball is for guys who poop their pants.
   16. Guapo Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:02 AM (#2151297)
I prefer to think that they were simply snorting cocaine together in the clubhouse, and Gibbons had a bit too much. But then again, I'm a believer in giving people the benefit of the doubt.
   17. NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:02 AM (#2151299)
Updated AP story:
Canadian Press photographer Aaron Harris, one of a handful of photographers to witness the skirmish, said Lilly was waiting for Gibbons in the tunnel.

"Gibbons just went at him," Harris said.

Harris said they went nose to nose.

"It looked like Gibbons grabbed him and they disappeared," Harris said. "Then the whole dugout emptied back there. It was mayhem down in the tunnel."
   18. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:03 AM (#2151303)
Lilly never would have pulled this stunt if his manager were a Vietnam veteran.
   19. Urban Faber Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:05 AM (#2151304)
I hope Lilly didn't punch with his pitching hand.
   20. Rob Base Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:07 AM (#2151310)
What's Lilly's reputation? I've never heard that he was a jerk or anything.
   21. Dr Love Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:08 AM (#2151313)
Tim Johnson got axed for not fighting and John Gibbons is going to get axed for fighting. It evens out.
   22. NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:08 AM (#2151314)
If J.P. is as hurting for money for next year as he says, he really should look into the extra revenue opportunity of putting some of these Gibbons matches on PPV.

This week: Gibbons vs. Ted Lilly!

Next week: See Gibbons vs. Alexis Rios! Only on PPV!
   23. Xander Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:09 AM (#2151316)
Tell that to Scott Spiezio.
   24. Dan The Mediocre Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:09 AM (#2151318)
AP: Gibbons and Lilly get into argument


Is it a surprise that pharmacutical test subjects object to the testing?
   25. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:11 AM (#2151320)
Gibbons vs. Gustavo Chacin would be a real treat. Dressed as a boxer we could solve the mystery of exactly how hairless Chacin is.

Also, despite this new story, I think "Ted Lilly" is still the wussiest name in baseball history.
   26. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:12 AM (#2151322)
If J.P. is as hurting for money for next year as he says, he really should look into the extra revenue opportunity of putting some of these Gibbons matches on PPV.

Nah, he should encourage Gibbons to pick fights with overpaid under-achievers. That way, he can void their contracts for cause after they tak a swing at the boss.
   27. NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:13 AM (#2151323)
Gibbons vs. Troy Glaus could be another possibility.

Glaus is a big guy, but none too mobile. Perhaps it would be more of a UFC-style bout.
   28. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:14 AM (#2151324)
Also, despite this new story, I think "Ted Lilly" is still the wussiest name in baseball history.

His name is Theodore Roosevelt Lilly. That's a great name. Like Grover Cleveland Alexander, only not as good at baseball.
   29. NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:15 AM (#2151325)
ESPN has a cooler headline for the AP story:
Lilly-Gibbons argument leaves manager bloodied


At a listed H/W of 5-10, 155 recent callup Davis Romero has to be going 'Uh-oh.'
   30. Urban Faber Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:16 AM (#2151327)
I think "Ted Lilly" is still the wussiest name in baseball history.

And not this one?
   31. philly Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:19 AM (#2151332)
Does this mean Gibbons actually out assholed Hillenbrand?

That's no mean feat.
   32. Dr Love Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:19 AM (#2151334)
And not this one?

That's nothing. Try this guy.
   33. asinwreck Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:21 AM (#2151337)
I prefer to think that they were simply snorting cocaine together in the clubhouse, and Gibbons had a bit too much. But then again, I'm a believer in giving people the benefit of the doubt.

Plus he was a member of the '86 Mets.
   34. Backlasher Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:22 AM (#2151340)
What's Lilly's reputation?

Before or after the JP spin machine?
   35. Matthew E Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:22 AM (#2151341)
What about Vance Lovelace?

About Gibbons/Lilly: this is ridiculous.
   36. NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:24 AM (#2151344)
About Gibbons/Lilly: this is ridiculous.

He's a southpaw. I don't want you messing with southpaws. They do everything backwards!
   37. Dr. Vaux Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:25 AM (#2151347)
Dan Haren did that?
   38. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:27 AM (#2151349)
Lilly was likely to leave Toronto anyway, so its not like the club can't recover from this. But if I'm Riccardi, I've got to give some serious thought about whether or not Gibbons is a guy that I want to continue to stand behind. In both the Hillenbrand and Lilly incidents, it seems that the player did something relatively minor in the grand scheme of things that escalated because of Gibbons' involvement.

For pretty much any manager at any level, one's ultimate responsibility is to keep the workers productive and, to as much as possible, happy. If you're frequently feuding with your employees and preventing them from doing their job, then you're not doing your job. Sometimes the best thing a manager can do to diffuse an adverserial situation is to temporarily disengage from the situation and deal with the problem after everyones' tempers have cooled. Basic life skill.

No interpersonal problem is every solved by increasing hostility. If Gibbons hasn't figured that out by age 45, then its very possible that he never will. In addition, he probably has already lost the respect of the players with having at least two notable blowups (actually, its quite possible that he lost the respect of his players beforehand, which in part led to the incidents to begin, but I digress). Anyway, I don't know if the situation is salvagable for Gibbons at this point. From my limited exposure to the Blue Jays under him, it doesn't seem to me that he brings enough positives to the table to offset this major negative.
   39. Backlasher Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:29 AM (#2151350)
That's nothing. Try this guy.

Peter Rose?
   40. Dr Love Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:30 AM (#2151351)
What about Vance Lovelace?


Can he top Lady Baldwin?
   41. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:31 AM (#2151354)
I always found Pedro Feliz to be amusing, as its spanish for Peter Happy.
   42. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:31 AM (#2151355)
Managers who would pick a fight with a player:

Cap Anson.
Ty Cobb. I don't believe he ever actually DID it. But does anyone doubt he would?
Leo Durocher
Lou Piniella (On video no less)
Walter Alston. A very calm, deliberate guy. But one time he challenged his entire TEAM to step outside or STFU. They shut up.
Larry Bowa
Doug Rader
Davey Lopes (I think he called out the team, the clubhouse personnel, and the ticket takers at one point)
Frankie Frisch
Frank Robinson


And the undisputed CHAMPION, The Master of Disaster, The King of Calamity, The One, The Only..............

BILLY MARTIN
   43. Dr Love Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:33 AM (#2151357)
Davey Lopes (I think he called out the team, the clubhouse personnel, and the ticket takers at one point)

Wasn't it Lopes who nearly threw down with Mike DeJean when DeJean was taken out of a game?
   44. NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:34 AM (#2151359)
it seems that the player did something relatively minor in the grand scheme of things that escalated because of Gibbons' involvement.

Not wanting to give up the ball is certainly a jerk-ish move on Lilly's part, no doubt.

He's not the first pitcher to do that, but he may be the first one to have his manager initiate contact in the dugout tunnel as a result (according to witnesses).
   45. Ron Johnson Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:35 AM (#2151360)
Lilly and Gibbons have some history. I know that last year when Lilly was going badly Gibbons went on the record as saying something close to, he's not listening to the coaching staff. Sure hope he works things out on his own because we can't help him. Really odd to read.

I got the impression that Gibbons was lobbying JP to find Lilly a new home.
   46. 1k5v3L Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:37 AM (#2151365)
Reached for a comment on his cell phone, Toronto GM JP Pinocchio denied that Ted Lilly was a member of the Blue Jays, or that manager Gibbons actually had a nose.
   47. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:38 AM (#2151370)
If this can depress Lilly's value on the Free Agent market, I'd like to see my team take a shot at him. I really like TRL.
   48. NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:38 AM (#2151371)
Wasn't it Lopes who nearly threw down with Mike DeJean when DeJean was taken out of a game?

No, Royster. They had a heated argument: MIL J-S
   49. Srul Itza Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:45 AM (#2151380)
Managers who would pick a fight with a player:

What, no Rogers Hornsby?
   50. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:46 AM (#2151383)
Nah, he should encourage Gibbons to pick fights with overpaid under-achievers. That way, he can void their contracts for cause after they tak a swing at the boss.

Now that is a great idea. It would work even better in a sport with a salary cap, though. That could be Isiah Thomas's last chance to succeed; if Gibbons could manage to instigate violence from Jerome James, Eddy Curry, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Jalen Rose, and Jamal Crawford, the Knicks might be able to rebuild sooner than 2011. Of course, Gibbons would probably be dead after all that work.
   51. NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:47 AM (#2151385)
From <a href="http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060821&c>the video linked from this MLB.com page</a>, it didn't seem like Lilly 'refused to give [Gibbons] the ball'.

He wasn't happy, 'What?', and they jawed a bit on the mound, but the AP article gave the impression that Lilly didn't hand over the baseball.
   52. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:47 AM (#2151386)
NTN, I'm not saying that Lilly (or Hillenbrand) is blameless in the run-ins with Gibbons. But a manager, whether in a baseball dugout or in an office, needs to find a way to get his employee back on track without aggravating the situation. Managers who try to rule by fear might be effective in the very short-term, but over the long-term prove ineffective because their rants are gradually tuned out and typically have trouble with retention.

Total aside, I once had a conversation with a senior vice president who noted that one of the first thing he always looks at when evaluating the effective of department heads is retention rates. Occasionally a good manager will have a run of bad luck and there will be a series of departures that were motivated by personal factors or whatever. But very rarely will a bad manager be able keep good employees. I think the concept can be appropriately applied to professional sports.
   53. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:49 AM (#2151388)
I always found Pedro Feliz to be amusing, as its spanish for Peter Happy.

I like Joe Breadnwater and Cecil Glove too, those names definitely sound better in Spanish.
   54. Dr Love Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:49 AM (#2151389)
That could be Isiah Thomas's last chance to succeed; if Gibbons could manage to instigate violence from Jerome James, Eddy Curry, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Jalen Rose, and Jamal Crawford, the Knicks might be able to rebuild sooner than 2011. Of course, Gibbons would probably be dead after all that work.

Have Isiah do it and everybody wins.
   55. NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:49 AM (#2151391)
NTN, I'm not saying that Lilly (or Hillenbrand) is blameless in the run-ins with Gibbons.

Oh, I was agreeing with you, actually...
   56. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:51 AM (#2151392)
Srul:

If you want to toss him in the mix fine with me. I was going on memory.

I was trying to see if there was any evidence of Dick Williams having picked a fight. He was sure crabby enough to do it. Haven't found anything.

I am sure I have overlooked others......
   57. Fred Garvin is dead to Mug Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:52 AM (#2151393)
I think "Ted Lilly" is still the wussiest name in baseball history.

--And not this one?


How this guy hasn't been mentioned is a mystery to me.
   58. JMM Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:53 AM (#2151395)
I know that last year when Lilly was going badly Gibbons went on the record as saying something close to, he's not listening to the coaching staff. Sure hope he works things out on his own because we can't help him. Really odd to read.

One of the reasons Lilly was eventually deemed disposable in Oakland was that he only pitched well after essentially being told that he wasn't allowed to shake off any pitch Ramon Hernandez called for under any circumstances no matter what. He's probably too stubborn for his own good. That, and he was due to make too much money (and Hernandez was dealt for Kotsay and the lack of Terrence Long).
   59. Dr Love Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:56 AM (#2151399)
I am sure I have overlooked others......

Well, you could expand it from managers fighting their own players and include Casey Stengel and Leo Durocher duking it out under the stands.
   60. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:56 AM (#2151400)
Another all-time good-because-its-funny-sounding-yet-appropriate was Butch Huskey. My wife (girlfriend back then) didn't believe me when I said that was his actually name the first time we were watching a Mets game together and he came up to bat.
   61. Super Creepy Derek Lowe (GGC) Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:57 AM (#2151401)
No love for this trio? They could start a steno pool with this player.
   62. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:59 AM (#2151405)
Gibbons vs. Gustavo Chacin would be a real treat. Dressed as a boxer we could solve the mystery of exactly how hairless Chacin is.

I still think he'd look like Bald Bull.
   63. karkface killah Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:00 AM (#2151408)
Dickie Noles and always sounded like a weiner to me.

Rance Mulliniks and the Iorg brothers seemed liked real badasses.
   64. Dr Love Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:01 AM (#2151409)
   65. John Lowenstein Apathy Club Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:04 AM (#2151415)
What's Lilly's reputation? I've never heard that he was a jerk or anything.

Well, he was seen as sometimes a problem, but more in the "hard to coach" vein than in the "prone to violence" vein. He had that rep before Toronto, but everybody always figures they can fix stuff like that, don't they?

In fact, Lilly's often seen as too passive - although I think that's more typecasting than anything, because he's got the sleepy eyes and calm expression.

Word from the radio guys (Jerry Howarth and Warren Sawkiw) was that Lilly shoved the ball into Gibbons's chest when he handed it over.

This whole season has been a gigantic ####### disappointment. One thing after another. To say that this team is not handling itself well is an understatement...
   66. John Lowenstein Apathy Club Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:08 AM (#2151422)
exactly how hairless Chacin is

Chacin has alopecia areata.
   67. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:16 AM (#2151433)
"Well, he was seen as sometimes a problem, but more in the "hard to coach" vein than in the "prone to violence" vein. He had that rep before Toronto, but everybody always figures they can fix stuff like that, don't they?"

I think in Lilly's case, and this is just based on a few interviews I saw when he was a Yankee, he's too dumb. He really sounds stupid, even for a ballplayer. If he's hard to coach, I don't think its because he's stubborn or a jackass, I think it's because he's too stupid to figure things out the way most pitchers can.
   68. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:19 AM (#2151437)
Buttercup, Pussiy, Dolly, Bubles, those are all nicknames, dudes. I now have Ted Lilly as the fourth wussiest actual name of all time behind Dickie Flowers, Vance Lovelace and Hilly Hathaway, and obviously the wussiest name of an active player.

I'm astonished that someone named Hillary Houston "Hilly" Hathaway played in the majors less than 15 years ago. If you asked me to describe Hilly Hathaway's career, I'd probably guess that he was a 5'8" whippet who grew up in a bad part of Cincinnati but tried out for the Reds and ended up as a 5th outfielder and fan favorite for a couple years; he played some mean defense and was always able to beat out a bunt for a hit, but missed out on a World Series share after he got sent down to Kankakee midway through 1919. Why? I guess he must have given one too many hot-foots to Ivey Wingo and Edd Roush.

...

But in actuality, Hilly Hathaway was born in Jacksonville, FL, and his career consisted of 11 mediocre starts in 1991 with the fifth-place Angels. Whatever.
   69. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:20 AM (#2151439)
Gibbons vs. Troy Glaus could be another possibility.

Glaus is a big guy, but none too mobile. Perhaps it would be more of a UFC-style bout.


Are you kidding? Gibbons is only 5'11''; BB-Ref says he was 187 in his playing days.

Glaus is a frickin' giant; he's 6'5'', 240. He could break Gibbons over his knee and take out Lilly and Hillenbrand for seconds.
   70. Backlasher Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:22 AM (#2151440)
But in actuality, Hilly Hathaway was born in Jacksonville, FL, and his career consisted of 11 mediocre starts in 1991 with the fifth-place Angels. Whatever.

I would have guessed he was a relief pitcher for Mr. (Don) Drysdale, who had a secret mancrush on NASCAR driver Geoff Bodine. I too would have thought he got sent down to the Beverly Hills farm team, after only getting a cup of Texas Tea in the bigleagues.
   71. Guapo Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:28 AM (#2151449)
Don't forget Jody Davis.
   72. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:28 AM (#2151450)
I knew exactly who Hilly Hathaway was, as he was considered a pretty good prospect for a few years.

I had, however, completely forgotten that after he kind of washed out, he was traded straight-up for Harold "I Thought Harass Was Two Words" Reynolds.
   73. Al Kaline Trio Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:29 AM (#2151452)
#65...

If I had some nuts on my chest would those be chestnuts?
   74. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:35 AM (#2151462)
Even if we grant that Lilly is hard to coach and something of a pain in the ass (which is certainly possible), Gibbons still needs to have a better handle on conflict and personality management than this. Between this and the Hillenbrand incident, I don't see how he can stay employed, based on what we've heard.
   75. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:37 AM (#2151464)
I'm astonished that someone named Hillary Houston "Hilly" Hathaway played in the majors less than 15 years ago. If you asked me to describe Hilly Hathaway's career, I'd probably guess that he was a 5'8" whippet who grew up in a bad part of Cincinnati but tried out for the Reds and ended up as a 5th outfielder and fan favorite for a couple years; he played some mean defense and was always able to beat out a bunt for a hit, but missed out on a World Series share after he got sent down to Kankakee midway through 1919. Why? I guess he must have given one too many hot-foots to Ivey Wingo and Edd Roush.

Couldn't be further from the truth. Hillary Hathaway was a farm boy from Boone, NC, who played semi-pro ball with his town team in the 30's and was signed by former St. Louis Brown Dixie Davis. While passing through town to take a look at a rumored prospect (Croaker Triplett, who himself had a brief wartime career with the Cardinals and Phillies), Davis saw Hathaway throw a pair of shutouts on both ends of a Sunday doubleheader and signed him on the spot. Hathaway took the long road to the Bigs, spending 7 years in the minors. In 1937, with Amarillo of the Class C Longhorn League, he went 13-8 with a 3.89 ERA. Hathaway was called up in 1941, pitched 10 games with a 4.10 ERA, was drafted, and never made it back. He died in 1975 in Hickory, NC, having tended bar in a local hotel for the rest of his days after the war.
   76. Boots Day Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:46 AM (#2151470)
Buttercup, Pussiy, Dolly, Bubles, those are all nicknames, dudes. I now have Ted Lilly as the fourth wussiest actual name of all time behind Dickie Flowers, Vance Lovelace and Hilly Hathaway, and obviously the wussiest name of an active player.

How could anything be wussier than a guy named Barbra?
   77. NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:46 AM (#2151471)
AP update:
"We were on the verge of something regrettable happening. We were yelling at each other face to face," Lilly said.
...
"He thought he should have been left in the game," Gibbons said of Lilly. "I didn't think so."

Gibbons met with Lilly after the game. "We hashed it out. Everything is fine now," Gibbons said.

Gibbons said Lilly will continue to pitch for him.
...
"Who knows how long I have left here," said Lilly, who is eligible for free agency after this season. "Maybe a month. Maybe longer. It was a bad day. I embarrassed the organization."

Team president Paul Godfrey didn't think Gibbons or Lilly needed discipline. General manager J.P. Ricciardi didn't make himself available.
...
"It's a little strange to seen that happen," Oakland's Eric Chavez said of the skirmish. "I liked Ted. He was a good teammate when he was here."
   78. Backlasher Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:51 AM (#2151473)
General manager J.P. Ricciardi didn't make himself available.

He had to do an interview where he trashed Keith Law.
   79. McCoy Posted: August 22, 2006 at 04:13 AM (#2151487)
At the end of the MLB video we see that the entire Toronto bench has been emptied and everybody is in the tunnel, except for one player/coach. So who was the one guy who said "ah hell, fudge it I don't want to be a part of another one of these imbroglios. I"m staying here and eating sunflower seeds"?
   80. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 22, 2006 at 04:20 AM (#2151493)
So who was the one guy who said "ah hell, fudge it I don't want to be a part of another one of these imbroglios. I"m staying here and eating sunflower seeds"?

I think we all know who that guy was.
   81. Inquisitor Posted: August 22, 2006 at 04:42 AM (#2151508)
From the video linked from this MLB.com page, it didn't seem like Lilly 'refused to give [Gibbons] the ball'.

He wasn't happy, 'What?', and they jawed a bit on the mound, but the AP article gave the impression that Lilly didn't hand over the baseball.



I don't think I've ever seen any pitcher happy to see the manager walk up to the mound. Even if you're a LOOGY and you do your job and get the guy out, you'd probably prefer to be given the chance to get the next guy out, too. Earlier this week, Duchscherer was pulled off the mound after giving up a run with two men still on base and only one out. The instant he saw Macha coming out of the dugout, you could clearly read his lips saying, "Son of a #####!" Macha just gave him a pat on the back, took the ball, and called up Street (who subsequently blew the save). Gibbons probably would've reacted differently.

I'm guessing that Gibbons is the type of person who, when in a leadership position, takes everything that goes wrong as a personal affront. These people make bad managers. Baseball isn't exactly the type of game where the manager has a lot of control over what happens.
   82. NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 04:43 AM (#2151509)
At the end of the MLB video we see that the entire Toronto bench has been emptied and everybody is in the tunnel, except for one player/coach.

I didn't really pick up on that the first time I watched the video.

"Hey, uhh, guys... we've still got a game going on here..."
   83. Ron Johnson Posted: August 22, 2006 at 05:01 AM (#2151523)
Ty Cobb. I don't believe he ever actually DID it.


He did with Howard Ehmke (on the mound no less). Interestingly one of the bigger guys in the game.

In the book The Pitcher John Thorn nominated Cobb as the worst handler of pitching in history. (Not that this
means much. The book relies heavily on anecdotal evidence, and there was never any shortage of guys wanting to slag Cobb. Or praise him for that matter. I'll bet a careful search of the record would find pitchers with plenty of nice things to say about Cobb.)
   84. NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 05:25 AM (#2151542)
From the AP game story, Shea speaks...
Hillenbrand had only kind words about Lilly when asked about the altercation after the Giants' 5-0 win over Arizona in San Francisco.

"Ted Lilly's a great guy. Ted Lilly's an intense competitor," Hillenbrand said. "He was a great teammate when I was over there. So I'm surprised that confrontation happened with Ted Lilly."

He added: "Stuff like that's been going on all season over there. I had my issues with the manager... They say I'm the cancer of the team and things are still happening, so I don't know how you can make that assumption or that statement. Things like that begin to come out when times get tough."
   85. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 22, 2006 at 05:34 AM (#2151551)
I'm astonished that someone named Hillary Houston "Hilly" Hathaway played in the majors less than 15 years ago. If you asked me to describe Hilly Hathaway's career, I'd probably guess that he was a 5'8" whippet who grew up in a bad part of Cincinnati but tried out for the Reds and ended up as a 5th outfielder and fan favorite for a couple years; he played some mean defense and was always able to beat out a bunt for a hit, but missed out on a World Series share after he got sent down to Kankakee midway through 1919. Why? I guess he must have given one too many hot-foots to Ivey Wingo and Edd Roush.

awesome.
   86. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 22, 2006 at 05:36 AM (#2151554)
From the video, it looks like Gibbons said something just before he got to the mound that set off Lilly.

Trouble sure has a way of finding Gibby.
   87. Shredder Posted: August 22, 2006 at 05:44 AM (#2151563)
I'm guessing that Gibbons is the type of person who, when in a leadership position, takes everything that goes wrong as a personal affront.

Well, did Duke tell Macha to f**k himself? Maybe I'm not very good at reading lips, but the two things I thought I saw on that video were "I'm not done" and "f**k you" or something reasonably close. I don't see what Lilly's problem was. Idiot blew an eight run lead. What did he expect?

I figure there are two ways a player can react in an obvious substitution situation. First, you can get made at yourself and be upset that you're in the position you're in, yet still realize that ultimately it's the manager's call, and that ultimately he's probably making that move that any other manager would make. You don't have to be happy about it, but hey, that's baseball.

Second, you could overreact and act like an idiot, despite the fact that the manager has obviously made the correct/high percentage move. Like for instance, when the manager pinch runs for you after a HBP in the late innings of a game in the last week of the season between two teams battling for the division within one game of each other, shortly after which subsequent events prove the manager correct. I call this second method the "Jose Guillen" reaction.
   88. Benji Posted: August 22, 2006 at 05:50 AM (#2151564)
Omar, watch that waiver wire. If Lilly comes up, put in a claim.
   89. NTNgod Posted: August 22, 2006 at 08:10 AM (#2151588)
Toronto Star: More Blue Jay Blowups
May, 1986 Damaso Garcia vs. Jimy Williams

Garcia was already upset with Williams for being removed from the leadoff spot in the lineup when, after making a crucial error in a loss in Oakland, he burned his uniform in the clubhouse. The next day, Williams castigated the second baseman in front of his teammates.

Ooooh, forgot about that one.
   90. Inquisitor Posted: August 22, 2006 at 08:24 AM (#2151593)
Well, did Duke tell Macha to f**k himself? Maybe I'm not very good at reading lips, but the two things I thought I saw on that video were "I'm not done" and "f**k you" or something reasonably close. I don't see what Lilly's problem was. Idiot blew an eight run lead. What did he expect?

I agree, Lilly was out of line, and the Duchscherer and Lilly situations aren't completely analagous. But as a manager, Gibbons should've realized that Lilly was more upset at himself and the situation he put himself in than in Gibbons for taking him out (which is what any sane manager would've done). Sometimes people need to vent, and the person they vent out on is you.

I'm not a lip reader by any stretch, but being deaf has forced me to pick up more than the average person. Here's what I can decipher from the tiny video on mlb.com:

(Gibbons is walking to the mound)
"I'm not f-cking done."
(Gibbons says something)
"What?"
(Gibbons keeps talking - I think he is saying something along the lines of, "Don't say f-cking...". I can't tell because of the wad of chew in his mouth, but I'm fairly certain the word you see him say during this exchange is "f-cking".)
"I'm [sorry/psyched/(something)?] I can win the game. I'm [sorry?] I can win it I'll win it."
(Gibbons continues talking)
"Fine."
(Lilly puts the ball on Gibbons's chest and walks off the mound)

I think the last word that Lilly says as he is walking off is "a--hole", but the video gets grainy because of the mouth movement, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm completely off. Lilly's attitude is crap, and he gives Gibbons more lip than he should've, but the only personal attack I saw, if there was one, was at the very end of the exchange, after he gives up the ball.

No one here is blameless, but I think Gibbons bears a much greater burden of responsibility, as it is essentially his job function to make sure stuff like this doesn't happen. The clubhouse atmosphere is obviously horrendous (which is another of his failures). It undoubtedly exacerbated a really crappy situation when the team gets an 8-0 lead then Lilly comes close to blowing it entirely before being pulled out. At this point, Lilly is already pissed off that the team sucks, they can't win games, and he is blowing the one chance they have to have a really solid win. I'm 100% certain that he wasn't the only player pissed off at that point, based on how the team has been going. If your team gets along well and you guys are winning games, one blowout isn't going to throw you off course - you'll take it as part of a regular baseball season and go on from there.
   91. Dr. Vaux Posted: August 22, 2006 at 08:42 AM (#2151596)
It's also a leader's job to absorb things like that, rather than escalating the situation. That's what they're supposed to do, after all: understand those under their command, put them in positions to be successful, and keep them from destroying each other. Gibbons seems unable to do any of those three things.

And that's strange, since Jerry Howarth, who I've come to trust quite a bit for someone I don't know from listening to him quite a lot over the past seventeen years, seems to think so highly of him as a person.
   92. John Lowenstein Apathy Club Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:05 PM (#2151679)
I think Gibbons bears a much greater burden of responsibility, as it is essentially his job function to make sure stuff like this doesn't happen.

Even more so in this case, because they had just been embroiled in a situation where he lost control and it precipitated a bad situation. Gibbons should have been on his absolute best behaviour. Vaux's point about absorbing stuff like that is the right one... as a leader and manager you have to take it the slings and arrows, because (1) players have to trust you enough to be honest with how they feel; and (2) you can provide an outlet that they don't otherwise have - they can't blow up at the press and you don't want them blowing up at each other.

Jerry Howarth, who I've come to trust quite a bit for someone I don't know from listening to him quite a lot over the past seventeen years, seems to think so highly of him as a person

Believe me, Jerry is a saint. He's not wrong about Gibbons; Gibbons is a tremendously impressive person. But stuff like this, is too far beyond the pale. You can be a tremendous man and manager 99.9% of the time, and be ruined by the other 0.1% if you lose control enough during that time.
   93. Traderdave Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:24 PM (#2151693)
re #42

Vern Rapp challenged a couple of Reds to duke it out.
   94. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:52 PM (#2151734)
"I didn't get hit -- nobody got hit. Everything's fine," Gibbons said. "I wasn't bloodied and he wasn't bloodied. Clarify that -- nobody got bloodied."

I'm ok, you're ok.
   95. guelphdad Posted: August 22, 2006 at 05:31 PM (#2152016)
someone asked about the lone player in the dugout. Chris Young's blog at http://www.thestar.blogs.com/jabs/ says it was Roy Holladay.
   96. Daryn Posted: August 22, 2006 at 06:06 PM (#2152072)
My wife (girlfriend back then) didn't believe me when I said that was his actually name the first time we were watching a Mets game together and he came up to bat.

My wife never believed me when I told her that Quinten McCracken was a major league player's name. That might be because I also told her that he had a brother in the major leagues: Phil.

Burley's dead right about Gibbons -- almost universally loved by the media here but seems to have a temper he wants to control but sometimes can't. His regular weekly radio interview is at 8:10 am on Tuesday mornings, so it was interesting today. He said he overreacted and that he wish he hadn't have done it (referring to going back into the tunnel).

Lilly, on the other hand, seems like an intense sourpuss, whose defining characteristic is that he thinks he is the greatest pitcher in baseball history. When his performance does not match that, it seems to make him very angry.

A few years ago, he had an August in Oakland where he was unhittable. When asked about it, he said that that stretch was the real Ted Lilly and he wasn't going back to being the regular Ted Lilly. Reality stings.
   97. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: August 22, 2006 at 06:58 PM (#2152165)
It's amazing Lilly wasn't fined. It sets a bad precedent by saying, "Hey, you can push Gibby around and we won't do anything."
   98. bunyon Posted: August 22, 2006 at 07:30 PM (#2152211)
It's also a leader's job to absorb things like that, rather than escalating the situation. That's what they're supposed to do, after all: understand those under their command, put them in positions to be successful, and keep them from destroying each other. Gibbons seems unable to do any of those three things.


Especially when you are the authority figure. You can relax, knowing that later you can pull the guy into your office and have at him. Or, better, quietly make his life hell. The manager should display calm and, when he needs to, exhibit ruthless behavior. But always in a calm manner. There was plenty of time to let the team know that you can't treat the manager that way (I'm with 97 - no fine?!).

Gibbons outbursts seem to indicate he either doesn't understand or isn't confident that he is the most powerful man in uniform on that team.

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