|
|
|
|
Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Tuesday, August 22, 2006
Does Gibbons view his roster as players he’s supposed to manage, or a bunch of sparring partners? :P
Perhaps he’s been watching the ROCKY BALBOA trailer too often?
“Let’s start building some hurting bombs!”
Blue Jays manager John Gibbons wound up with a bloody nose after tangling with Toronto pitcher Ted Lilly near the dugout during Monday night’s game against Oakland. It was not known whether any punches were thrown in the tunnel leading to the clubhouse.
Lilly was pulled in the third inning, when the Athletics scored seven runs to close to 8-7. Gibbons chewed out the pitcher, who refused to give him the ball.
When Lilly left the mound for the locker room, Gibbons followed him. A team trainer and a number of players then ran down the stairs.
Cameramen near the dugout saw Gibbons push Lilly first.
...
Gibbons challenged infielder Shea Hillenbrand to a fight in July after Hillenbrand wrote on the clubhouse bulletin board that the “ship was sinking.”
MLB.com video of the incident is linked to on this page
NOTE: updated intro with latest revision of AP story
NTNgod
Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:14 AM | 98 comment(s)
Login to Bookmark
Tags:
blue jays
|
Bookmarks
You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.
Hot Topics
Newsblog: SB Nation: The Rotation: The worst baseball conversations (21 - 9:22pm, May 25)Last: gef the talking mongooseNewsblog: McCoy: Brandon Phillips playing to Joe Morgan's level? (16 - 9:18pm, May 25)Last: Walt DavisNewsblog: OMNICHATTER for MAY 25, 2013 (59 - 9:16pm, May 25)Last: CFBF Hates HyphensNewsblog: Perry: Hawk Harrelson reacts to blown call by Angel Hernandez (28 - 9:13pm, May 25)Last: Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame)Newsblog: OT: NHL is finally back thread (380 - 8:55pm, May 25)Last: Kiko SakataNewsblog: Who Are the Top Baserunners in Baseball? | Articles | Bill James Online (27 - 8:52pm, May 25)Last: GregDNewsblog: Raissman: Could 2013 be last year for John Sterling and Suzyn Waldman on Yankees radio broadcast? (7 - 8:45pm, May 25)Last: Gonfalon BubbleNewsblog: [OTP-May] Politico: Congressional baseball game, May 1, 1926 (4472 - 7:57pm, May 25)Last: GregDNewsblog: HHS: Autin: Miguel Cabrera to the max (34 - 7:34pm, May 25)Last: MefistoNewsblog: Marchman: Why Even Have Baseball's Draft? (19 - 7:29pm, May 25)Last: YR Misses Reggie BarsNewsblog: Flip Flop Fly Ball: George Brett - Jeans, Black Bucks, No Socks (3 - 7:01pm, May 25)Last: Non-Youkilidian GeometryNewsblog: OT: The Soccer Thread, May 2013 (1234 - 6:35pm, May 25)Last: Borussia, Du bist so wunderschön! (Mark Edward)Newsblog: SI: Alex Sanabia : I didn't know spitter was against rules (12 - 6:21pm, May 25)Last: Walt DavisNewsblog: Miguel Cabrera thrown six pitches at once, hits them all out of the park (9 - 5:40pm, May 25)Last: escabecheNewsblog: Curtis Granderson has fractured left pinky finger (15 - 5:25pm, May 25)Last: RMc and His Roster of Rubbish
|
|
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
1. Juan V Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:23 AM (#2151223)Luck? It´s a market inneficiency :)
I guess Lilly took him up on his challenge :^).
F
Well, since nobody "dissed" him in the press, it'll probably be until someone actually comments on him :^).
F
Keith Law is an idiot.
Computer baseball is for guys who poop their pants.
This week: Gibbons vs. Ted Lilly!
Next week: See Gibbons vs. Alexis Rios! Only on PPV!
Is it a surprise that pharmacutical test subjects object to the testing?
Also, despite this new story, I think "Ted Lilly" is still the wussiest name in baseball history.
Nah, he should encourage Gibbons to pick fights with overpaid under-achievers. That way, he can void their contracts for cause after they tak a swing at the boss.
Glaus is a big guy, but none too mobile. Perhaps it would be more of a UFC-style bout.
His name is Theodore Roosevelt Lilly. That's a great name. Like Grover Cleveland Alexander, only not as good at baseball.
Lilly-Gibbons argument leaves manager bloodied
At a listed H/W of 5-10, 155 recent callup Davis Romero has to be going 'Uh-oh.'
And not this one?
That's no mean feat.
That's nothing. Try this guy.
Plus he was a member of the '86 Mets.
Before or after the JP spin machine?
About Gibbons/Lilly: this is ridiculous.
He's a southpaw. I don't want you messing with southpaws. They do everything backwards!
For pretty much any manager at any level, one's ultimate responsibility is to keep the workers productive and, to as much as possible, happy. If you're frequently feuding with your employees and preventing them from doing their job, then you're not doing your job. Sometimes the best thing a manager can do to diffuse an adverserial situation is to temporarily disengage from the situation and deal with the problem after everyones' tempers have cooled. Basic life skill.
No interpersonal problem is every solved by increasing hostility. If Gibbons hasn't figured that out by age 45, then its very possible that he never will. In addition, he probably has already lost the respect of the players with having at least two notable blowups (actually, its quite possible that he lost the respect of his players beforehand, which in part led to the incidents to begin, but I digress). Anyway, I don't know if the situation is salvagable for Gibbons at this point. From my limited exposure to the Blue Jays under him, it doesn't seem to me that he brings enough positives to the table to offset this major negative.
Peter Rose?
Can he top Lady Baldwin?
Cap Anson.
Ty Cobb. I don't believe he ever actually DID it. But does anyone doubt he would?
Leo Durocher
Lou Piniella (On video no less)
Walter Alston. A very calm, deliberate guy. But one time he challenged his entire TEAM to step outside or STFU. They shut up.
Larry Bowa
Doug Rader
Davey Lopes (I think he called out the team, the clubhouse personnel, and the ticket takers at one point)
Frankie Frisch
Frank Robinson
And the undisputed CHAMPION, The Master of Disaster, The King of Calamity, The One, The Only..............
BILLY MARTIN
Wasn't it Lopes who nearly threw down with Mike DeJean when DeJean was taken out of a game?
Not wanting to give up the ball is certainly a jerk-ish move on Lilly's part, no doubt.
He's not the first pitcher to do that, but he may be the first one to have his manager initiate contact in the dugout tunnel as a result (according to witnesses).
I got the impression that Gibbons was lobbying JP to find Lilly a new home.
No, Royster. They had a heated argument: MIL J-S
What, no Rogers Hornsby?
Now that is a great idea. It would work even better in a sport with a salary cap, though. That could be Isiah Thomas's last chance to succeed; if Gibbons could manage to instigate violence from Jerome James, Eddy Curry, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Jalen Rose, and Jamal Crawford, the Knicks might be able to rebuild sooner than 2011. Of course, Gibbons would probably be dead after all that work.
He wasn't happy, 'What?', and they jawed a bit on the mound, but the AP article gave the impression that Lilly didn't hand over the baseball.
Total aside, I once had a conversation with a senior vice president who noted that one of the first thing he always looks at when evaluating the effective of department heads is retention rates. Occasionally a good manager will have a run of bad luck and there will be a series of departures that were motivated by personal factors or whatever. But very rarely will a bad manager be able keep good employees. I think the concept can be appropriately applied to professional sports.
I like Joe Breadnwater and Cecil Glove too, those names definitely sound better in Spanish.
Have Isiah do it and everybody wins.
Oh, I was agreeing with you, actually...
If you want to toss him in the mix fine with me. I was going on memory.
I was trying to see if there was any evidence of Dick Williams having picked a fight. He was sure crabby enough to do it. Haven't found anything.
I am sure I have overlooked others......
--And not this one?
How this guy hasn't been mentioned is a mystery to me.
One of the reasons Lilly was eventually deemed disposable in Oakland was that he only pitched well after essentially being told that he wasn't allowed to shake off any pitch Ramon Hernandez called for under any circumstances no matter what. He's probably too stubborn for his own good. That, and he was due to make too much money (and Hernandez was dealt for Kotsay and the lack of Terrence Long).
Well, you could expand it from managers fighting their own players and include Casey Stengel and Leo Durocher duking it out under the stands.
I still think he'd look like Bald Bull.
Rance Mulliniks and the Iorg brothers seemed liked real badasses.
Sweetbreads Bailey
Slim Love
Well, he was seen as sometimes a problem, but more in the "hard to coach" vein than in the "prone to violence" vein. He had that rep before Toronto, but everybody always figures they can fix stuff like that, don't they?
In fact, Lilly's often seen as too passive - although I think that's more typecasting than anything, because he's got the sleepy eyes and calm expression.
Word from the radio guys (Jerry Howarth and Warren Sawkiw) was that Lilly shoved the ball into Gibbons's chest when he handed it over.
This whole season has been a gigantic ####### disappointment. One thing after another. To say that this team is not handling itself well is an understatement...
Chacin has alopecia areata.
I think in Lilly's case, and this is just based on a few interviews I saw when he was a Yankee, he's too dumb. He really sounds stupid, even for a ballplayer. If he's hard to coach, I don't think its because he's stubborn or a jackass, I think it's because he's too stupid to figure things out the way most pitchers can.
I'm astonished that someone named Hillary Houston "Hilly" Hathaway played in the majors less than 15 years ago. If you asked me to describe Hilly Hathaway's career, I'd probably guess that he was a 5'8" whippet who grew up in a bad part of Cincinnati but tried out for the Reds and ended up as a 5th outfielder and fan favorite for a couple years; he played some mean defense and was always able to beat out a bunt for a hit, but missed out on a World Series share after he got sent down to Kankakee midway through 1919. Why? I guess he must have given one too many hot-foots to Ivey Wingo and Edd Roush.
...
But in actuality, Hilly Hathaway was born in Jacksonville, FL, and his career consisted of 11 mediocre starts in 1991 with the fifth-place Angels. Whatever.
Glaus is a big guy, but none too mobile. Perhaps it would be more of a UFC-style bout.
Are you kidding? Gibbons is only 5'11''; BB-Ref says he was 187 in his playing days.
Glaus is a frickin' giant; he's 6'5'', 240. He could break Gibbons over his knee and take out Lilly and Hillenbrand for seconds.
I would have guessed he was a relief pitcher for Mr. (Don) Drysdale, who had a secret mancrush on NASCAR driver Geoff Bodine. I too would have thought he got sent down to the Beverly Hills farm team, after only getting a cup of Texas Tea in the bigleagues.
I had, however, completely forgotten that after he kind of washed out, he was traded straight-up for Harold "I Thought Harass Was Two Words" Reynolds.
If I had some nuts on my chest would those be chestnuts?
Couldn't be further from the truth. Hillary Hathaway was a farm boy from Boone, NC, who played semi-pro ball with his town team in the 30's and was signed by former St. Louis Brown Dixie Davis. While passing through town to take a look at a rumored prospect (Croaker Triplett, who himself had a brief wartime career with the Cardinals and Phillies), Davis saw Hathaway throw a pair of shutouts on both ends of a Sunday doubleheader and signed him on the spot. Hathaway took the long road to the Bigs, spending 7 years in the minors. In 1937, with Amarillo of the Class C Longhorn League, he went 13-8 with a 3.89 ERA. Hathaway was called up in 1941, pitched 10 games with a 4.10 ERA, was drafted, and never made it back. He died in 1975 in Hickory, NC, having tended bar in a local hotel for the rest of his days after the war.
How could anything be wussier than a guy named Barbra?
He had to do an interview where he trashed Keith Law.
I think we all know who that guy was.
He wasn't happy, 'What?', and they jawed a bit on the mound, but the AP article gave the impression that Lilly didn't hand over the baseball.
I don't think I've ever seen any pitcher happy to see the manager walk up to the mound. Even if you're a LOOGY and you do your job and get the guy out, you'd probably prefer to be given the chance to get the next guy out, too. Earlier this week, Duchscherer was pulled off the mound after giving up a run with two men still on base and only one out. The instant he saw Macha coming out of the dugout, you could clearly read his lips saying, "Son of a #####!" Macha just gave him a pat on the back, took the ball, and called up Street (who subsequently blew the save). Gibbons probably would've reacted differently.
I'm guessing that Gibbons is the type of person who, when in a leadership position, takes everything that goes wrong as a personal affront. These people make bad managers. Baseball isn't exactly the type of game where the manager has a lot of control over what happens.
I didn't really pick up on that the first time I watched the video.
"Hey, uhh, guys... we've still got a game going on here..."
He did with Howard Ehmke (on the mound no less). Interestingly one of the bigger guys in the game.
In the book The Pitcher John Thorn nominated Cobb as the worst handler of pitching in history. (Not that this
means much. The book relies heavily on anecdotal evidence, and there was never any shortage of guys wanting to slag Cobb. Or praise him for that matter. I'll bet a careful search of the record would find pitchers with plenty of nice things to say about Cobb.)
awesome.
Trouble sure has a way of finding Gibby.
Well, did Duke tell Macha to f**k himself? Maybe I'm not very good at reading lips, but the two things I thought I saw on that video were "I'm not done" and "f**k you" or something reasonably close. I don't see what Lilly's problem was. Idiot blew an eight run lead. What did he expect?
I figure there are two ways a player can react in an obvious substitution situation. First, you can get made at yourself and be upset that you're in the position you're in, yet still realize that ultimately it's the manager's call, and that ultimately he's probably making that move that any other manager would make. You don't have to be happy about it, but hey, that's baseball.
Second, you could overreact and act like an idiot, despite the fact that the manager has obviously made the correct/high percentage move. Like for instance, when the manager pinch runs for you after a HBP in the late innings of a game in the last week of the season between two teams battling for the division within one game of each other, shortly after which subsequent events prove the manager correct. I call this second method the "Jose Guillen" reaction.
Ooooh, forgot about that one.
I agree, Lilly was out of line, and the Duchscherer and Lilly situations aren't completely analagous. But as a manager, Gibbons should've realized that Lilly was more upset at himself and the situation he put himself in than in Gibbons for taking him out (which is what any sane manager would've done). Sometimes people need to vent, and the person they vent out on is you.
I'm not a lip reader by any stretch, but being deaf has forced me to pick up more than the average person. Here's what I can decipher from the tiny video on mlb.com:
(Gibbons is walking to the mound)
"I'm not f-cking done."
(Gibbons says something)
"What?"
(Gibbons keeps talking - I think he is saying something along the lines of, "Don't say f-cking...". I can't tell because of the wad of chew in his mouth, but I'm fairly certain the word you see him say during this exchange is "f-cking".)
"I'm [sorry/psyched/(something)?] I can win the game. I'm [sorry?] I can win it I'll win it."
(Gibbons continues talking)
"Fine."
(Lilly puts the ball on Gibbons's chest and walks off the mound)
I think the last word that Lilly says as he is walking off is "a--hole", but the video gets grainy because of the mouth movement, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm completely off. Lilly's attitude is crap, and he gives Gibbons more lip than he should've, but the only personal attack I saw, if there was one, was at the very end of the exchange, after he gives up the ball.
No one here is blameless, but I think Gibbons bears a much greater burden of responsibility, as it is essentially his job function to make sure stuff like this doesn't happen. The clubhouse atmosphere is obviously horrendous (which is another of his failures). It undoubtedly exacerbated a really crappy situation when the team gets an 8-0 lead then Lilly comes close to blowing it entirely before being pulled out. At this point, Lilly is already pissed off that the team sucks, they can't win games, and he is blowing the one chance they have to have a really solid win. I'm 100% certain that he wasn't the only player pissed off at that point, based on how the team has been going. If your team gets along well and you guys are winning games, one blowout isn't going to throw you off course - you'll take it as part of a regular baseball season and go on from there.
And that's strange, since Jerry Howarth, who I've come to trust quite a bit for someone I don't know from listening to him quite a lot over the past seventeen years, seems to think so highly of him as a person.
Even more so in this case, because they had just been embroiled in a situation where he lost control and it precipitated a bad situation. Gibbons should have been on his absolute best behaviour. Vaux's point about absorbing stuff like that is the right one... as a leader and manager you have to take it the slings and arrows, because (1) players have to trust you enough to be honest with how they feel; and (2) you can provide an outlet that they don't otherwise have - they can't blow up at the press and you don't want them blowing up at each other.
Jerry Howarth, who I've come to trust quite a bit for someone I don't know from listening to him quite a lot over the past seventeen years, seems to think so highly of him as a person
Believe me, Jerry is a saint. He's not wrong about Gibbons; Gibbons is a tremendously impressive person. But stuff like this, is too far beyond the pale. You can be a tremendous man and manager 99.9% of the time, and be ruined by the other 0.1% if you lose control enough during that time.
Vern Rapp challenged a couple of Reds to duke it out.
I'm ok, you're ok.
My wife never believed me when I told her that Quinten McCracken was a major league player's name. That might be because I also told her that he had a brother in the major leagues: Phil.
Burley's dead right about Gibbons -- almost universally loved by the media here but seems to have a temper he wants to control but sometimes can't. His regular weekly radio interview is at 8:10 am on Tuesday mornings, so it was interesting today. He said he overreacted and that he wish he hadn't have done it (referring to going back into the tunnel).
Lilly, on the other hand, seems like an intense sourpuss, whose defining characteristic is that he thinks he is the greatest pitcher in baseball history. When his performance does not match that, it seems to make him very angry.
A few years ago, he had an August in Oakland where he was unhittable. When asked about it, he said that that stretch was the real Ted Lilly and he wasn't going back to being the regular Ted Lilly. Reality stings.
Especially when you are the authority figure. You can relax, knowing that later you can pull the guy into your office and have at him. Or, better, quietly make his life hell. The manager should display calm and, when he needs to, exhibit ruthless behavior. But always in a calm manner. There was plenty of time to let the team know that you can't treat the manager that way (I'm with 97 - no fine?!).
Gibbons outbursts seem to indicate he either doesn't understand or isn't confident that he is the most powerful man in uniform on that team.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main