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Sunday, April 14, 2013

Arizona Diamondbacks owner Ken Kendrick tells Los Angeles Dodgers fans sitting behind home plate to change clothes or their seats

When Seinfeld and real life merge.

“It sounds kind of small-minded, but I would think they probably have the legal right to do that, especially if they let people know in advance that that’s the rule,” said Paul Bender, a professor of law at Arizona State.

“I hate to say that. I don’t like them doing that. And it’s conceivable if it’s treated as a city, state or county stadium that the rule would be different. But with what kind of clothes people wear, usually people who run the stadium are thought to have the right do that as long as they say in advance that those are the rules.”

Jim Furtado Posted: April 14, 2013 at 09:15 AM | 124 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: diamondbacks, dodgers, fashion sense

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   1. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 14, 2013 at 09:18 AM (#4413598)
Link doesn't work for me. Were their clothes not gritty enough?
   2. shoelesjoe Posted: April 14, 2013 at 10:48 AM (#4413631)
Rawitch said that because of the high visibility of the seats, the team has a policy forbidding fans from wearing opposing team’s gear before they purchase the suite, which ranges in price from $3,250 to $3,500 depending on the night.

“We don’t tell them they can’t cheer for the other team,” Rawitch said. “We just ask them to adhere to the policy that we give them when we sell them the tickets.”


Small minded indeed.
   3. bobm Posted: April 14, 2013 at 11:08 AM (#4413636)
And it’s conceivable if it’s treated as a city, state or county stadium that the rule would be different. 

Yes, Joe Arpaio would have made them change into pink underwear instead.
   4. BDC Posted: April 14, 2013 at 11:14 AM (#4413638)
If presented with an ultimatum by the Diamondbacks to shift out of a Rangers hat, I'd be tempted to put on a Cowboys hat. I guess they could stop that, too. How about a UT hat? How about a shirt with some logo that's not an official sponsor of Major League Baseball? I sense a slippery slope here.
   5. Perry Posted: April 14, 2013 at 11:15 AM (#4413639)
Watching on TV, I've always wondered about those seats and the people who sit in them. It's striking how little attention most of them pay to the game. I guess occasionally the crack of the bat gets their attention, but I'm not even sure about that.
   6. Publius Publicola Posted: April 14, 2013 at 11:28 AM (#4413644)
I would come back with "Sure, I'll change my clothes- for a price. How much is it worth to you?".
   7. bobm Posted: April 14, 2013 at 11:34 AM (#4413652)
FTFA:

The fans agreed, changing into Diamondbacks merchandise provided by the team, Diamondbacks spokesman Josh Rawitch said, adding that the fans would have been refunded had they chose to be relocated.
   8. OsunaSakata Posted: April 14, 2013 at 11:38 AM (#4413654)
Maybe if those seats weren't so expensive, Diamondbacks fans could afford them.
   9. 3Com Park Posted: April 14, 2013 at 01:01 PM (#4413738)
Nobody should be allowed to wear Dodger gear.
   10. Randy Jones Posted: April 14, 2013 at 01:04 PM (#4413743)
Wow, that's ########. I would've told them to go #### themselves.

Whoever decided this was going to be the policy needs to grow up. It's a sporting event, there are going to be people there rooting against your team and wearing the opposing team's gear. They paid you money, suck it up.
   11. KT's Pot Arb Posted: April 14, 2013 at 01:19 PM (#4413754)
Whoever decided this was going to be the policy needs to grow up


You have apparently not met Ken Kendrick, it's a little late for him.

I would have changed garb, and spent the entire game engaging in conduct on public TV that was far more embarrassing to the team.

Are anti-DBacks signs verboten?

What if I write them somewhat cleverly?

"Grit >> wins",

"Go Towers! Far Away!"

How about simulated sex?

Oh, that's against the rules? What if I actually put my #### in him?

I think I could have had a great time before being removed physically in the 7th inning.
   12. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: April 14, 2013 at 01:34 PM (#4413766)
re #11, if somebody takes up a collection, it would only take 350 of us who are willing to pony up $10 to see this epic showdown come to pass. I'll be the first.
   13. Tripon Posted: April 14, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4413769)
It is kind of funny that the Padres and D'backs basically traded GMs.
   14. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 14, 2013 at 01:46 PM (#4413773)
Rawitch said that because of the high visibility of the seats, the team has a policy forbidding fans from wearing opposing team’s gear before they purchase the suite, which ranges in price from $3,250 to $3,500 depending on the night.

So I guess good old Elaine Benes's free speech crusade might not have gone over so well in Arizona.
   15. Swedish Chef Posted: April 14, 2013 at 01:46 PM (#4413775)
What if you don't want to wear clothes?
   16. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 14, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4413778)
OTOH it could be worse. Check out this list of no-nos at the Augusta Golf Club during the Masters.

At Augusta, if You Have to Ask, The Answer Is No. So Don’t Ask.

A few samples:

No running anywhere on the grounds. No sitting on the grass near the greens. No bare feet (even when sitting down). No chairs with arms. No folding chairs. No flags. No signs. No banners. No coolers. No strollers. No radios. No standing in officially designated sitting areas. No sitting in the standing areas. No cameras. No rigid chairs. No hats worn backward. No metal golf spikes. No outsize hats. No carts. And absolutely no lying down anywhere....

Also:

No ladders.

No selling a Masters badge within 2,700 feet of an Augusta National gate.

No walking through a driving gate.

No recorders.

No periscopes.

No submarines either, although that is a sandwich reference because there is another rule: no outside food.

The Country Club of No is not really a country club at all; it is a golf club. So, no tennis courts. No paddle ball courts. No pool. No croquet. And no infighting over the prize weekend tee times from 8 to 10 a.m. How do they avoid that?

No tee times.
   17. Swedish Chef Posted: April 14, 2013 at 02:04 PM (#4413785)
No folding chairs

No rigid chairs

Hmmm... Sounds like they only allow beanie bags.
   18. jacjacatk Posted: April 14, 2013 at 02:10 PM (#4413786)
Can I wear DBacks gear and write in "Sucks" on it? 'Cause that's exactly what I'd do (minimum) if they offered me DBacks gear to replace what I was wearing.

I'm totally in for the collection deal, too, if someone sets it up. Willing to show up in full Phillies regalia with as many AA batteries as they'll let me bring into the park.
   19. Brian Posted: April 14, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4413812)
Well Jolly Old Red Diaper Baby, there is no confusion about whether Augusta National is a private venue so thems the rules if you wish to attend. For the record, it makes for an awesome experience. If you need to do those other prohibited things there is always the Phoenix (Waste Management) Open.
   20. bunyon Posted: April 14, 2013 at 03:02 PM (#4413854)
Oh, that's against the rules? What if I actually put my #### in him?

I think I could have had a great time before being removed physically in the 7th inning.


Wow. You must take the blue pill.
   21. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: April 14, 2013 at 03:07 PM (#4413858)
Watching on TV, I've always wondered about those seats and the people who sit in them. It's striking how little attention most of them pay to the game. I guess occasionally the crack of the bat gets their attention, but I'm not even sure about that.


Those seats are not about going to a baseball game, any more than membership at Augusta National is about golf. It's about networking, selling, and closing deals. (The reason the ban on women at AN is so big a deal is because it closes off a HUGE deal making network to female executives and sales resources.)
   22. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 14, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4413900)
It is kind of funny that the Padres and D'backs basically traded GMs.


It's probably not as funny if you're an Arizona fan.

For me, this seems like a perfect situation to exercise Option J. "You want me to change? Sure!" *Unzips*
   23. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: April 14, 2013 at 03:52 PM (#4413906)
The Land of LA Rejects never disappoints. They are closing the crazy gap on Florida everyday.
   24. Greg K Posted: April 14, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4413914)
This is idea is so ridiculous it could be a joke on a major network sit-com!

EDIT: GAH, read the damned intro, Greg.
   25. pthomas Posted: April 14, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4413938)
2700 feet from an Augusta National Gate? Does that mean I can't scalp a badge over to the Jiffy Lube or The IHOP?
   26. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 14, 2013 at 05:09 PM (#4413984)
What would have happened if the Dodger fans had changed into Orioles gear?
   27. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 14, 2013 at 05:24 PM (#4414010)
for those not aware i was arrested and fined for 'scalping' outside the d'backs stadium. the face value of the ticket was $29 and i thought it was $30 so when the guy asked me how much i told him $30. it was a cop and he arrested me and fined me $157 and told me to never come back to the stadium by order of ownership

i have obliged.

this news does not surprise me
   28. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 14, 2013 at 05:32 PM (#4414018)
for those not aware i was arrested and fined for 'scalping' outside the d'backs stadium. the face value of the ticket was $29 and i thought it was $30 so when the guy asked me how much i told him $30. it was a cop and he arrested me and fined me $157 and told me to never come back to the stadium by order of ownership

Hmmm, were you wearing Brewers gear?
   29. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 14, 2013 at 05:34 PM (#4414021)
je

nope.

   30. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 14, 2013 at 05:39 PM (#4414027)
Anyway, Harv, I can't say I'm surprised. As you probably know, nearby Scottsdale is the speed camera capital of the world. A friend claimed that one of those units on the Pima Freeway nailed him going two whole miles over the speed limit.
   31. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 14, 2013 at 05:49 PM (#4414041)
je

what was funny was that one of the actual scalpers tried to intercede with the cops pointing out how silly it was to bust me for being a dollar over the face value
   32. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 14, 2013 at 05:58 PM (#4414050)
OK, trying to picture the scalper defending you made me laugh out loud, startling the young family sitting next to me at this Starbucks....
   33. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: April 14, 2013 at 06:13 PM (#4414058)
that's an amazing story.
   34. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 14, 2013 at 06:25 PM (#4414068)
der

as the saying goes if i'm lying i'm dying
   35. cardsfanboy Posted: April 14, 2013 at 06:32 PM (#4414072)
I'm glad more teams are slowly starting to loosen up on the scalping laws. I think it should be perfectly okay for a person to sell tickets in front of the stadium within a couple of hours of it starting for face value or even 10% over... mind you I think most of the scalpers I see have been selling below face value(except for special events of course)
   36. Shoebo Posted: April 14, 2013 at 06:57 PM (#4414083)
They are told, very clearly, when they buy the tickets about the policy. They had a choice. They entered into an agreement, and then they broke the agreement. Seeking an equitable solution, the D Backs gave them free stuff.....yeah...string them up. Hang em high. !

Look, debate the policy, thats fine. But be clear here. The Dodger fans broke the policy they agreed to abide by when they purchased the seats.

That is all.
   37. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 14, 2013 at 07:11 PM (#4414089)
Look, debate the policy, thats fine.
Then can we all agree it's #### policy? It's certainly a terrible precedent, and I'd be horrified if my own team picked it up.
   38. Swedish Chef Posted: April 14, 2013 at 07:44 PM (#4414105)
The Dodger fans broke the policy they agreed to abide by when they purchased the seats.

Yeah, yeah, and any normal person breaks about eleventeen policies daily, because there are so many terms and conditions on everything that the only sensible thing to do is to not give a ####. The fans are blameless for assuming the team to not be insane.
   39. silhouetted by the sea Posted: April 14, 2013 at 08:05 PM (#4414114)
I have a hard time they make it a point to tell ticket buyers that they can't where clothes with the opponents logo. I tend not to read the back of tickets or the 2 pages of fine print in a deal like this. I assume that if I go to the game and treat people respectfully, I will be fine.
   40. asinwreck Posted: April 14, 2013 at 11:07 PM (#4414221)
This civic competition for the last drops of water out of the Colorado River basin is getting desperate.
   41. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 14, 2013 at 11:14 PM (#4414224)
No selling a Masters badge within 2,700 feet of an Augusta National gate.

Do they own the roads, too?
   42. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 14, 2013 at 11:22 PM (#4414226)
Well Jolly Old Red Diaper Baby, there is no confusion about whether Augusta National is a private venue so thems the rules if you wish to attend. For the record, it makes for an awesome experience. If you need to do those other prohibited things there is always the Phoenix (Waste Management) Open.

Well Brown Diaper Brian, what makes you think I give a #### about any of those Augusta GC rules? Some of them may verge on self-parody, but as you say, it's their club, and they sure as hell put on a great show. That finish today was one for the ages, the golf equivalent of the last two games of the 1991 World Series.
   43. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: April 14, 2013 at 11:33 PM (#4414230)
That finish today was one for the ages, the golf equivalent of the last two games of the 1991 World Series.

Except i didn't fall asleep during the last two games of the 91 series, because it wasn't boring as ####.

Who the #### cares about the masters? Let me know when they start hitting a moving ball.
   44. Misirlou is on hiding to nowhere Posted: April 14, 2013 at 11:51 PM (#4414234)
Well Jolly Old Red Diaper Baby, there is no confusion about whether Augusta National is a private venue so thems the rules if you wish to attend.


Really? And they own everything within 2700 feet of their property line?
   45. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 14, 2013 at 11:56 PM (#4414236)
Ah, the Masters. A tradition of entitlement unlike any other.
   46. Howie Menckel Posted: April 14, 2013 at 11:56 PM (#4414237)

per Augusta:

why need to bring in food and drink when a soda or candy are $1 and a ham and cheese on rye is $1.50 and a chicken sandwich is $2.50, unless one is gluten-free or whatever?

they don't rip you off at the concession stands like - well, baseball teams do

https://twitter.com/Grant__Gardner/status/322362966622216192/photo/1



   47. Red Menace Posted: April 15, 2013 at 12:09 AM (#4414240)
They told us what to wear, how to dress, which clothes we should put on...
   48. Mike A Posted: April 15, 2013 at 12:16 AM (#4414241)
You have to get the Pimento Cheese sandwich if you're at Augusta.

Been lucky enough to go to The Masters several times, I have no problem with the restrictions. It is hallowed ground, after all. And it's really not particularly limiting, though I guess there are people out there who can't live without their phone for a few hours.
   49. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 15, 2013 at 12:39 AM (#4414251)
It is hallowed ground, after all.


If I ever go, it will now be impossible for me not to moon from the 18th green.
   50. pthomas Posted: April 15, 2013 at 12:58 AM (#4414255)
No, the "hallowed ground" is over on the Par 3 where Clifford Roberts shot himself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Roberts
   51. Lassus Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:03 AM (#4414258)
Whining about how boring and unimportant you find golf is adolescent at the very best.
   52. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:20 AM (#4414264)
Whining about "whining", however...

Well-stated objections to the game itself, on the other hand, which is probably the clearest single representation of all the deranged things people do in order to create difficulties for themselves where none need otherwise exist, are always welcome. "A good walk spoiled", for instance, never gets old.

It's extraordinary that we came up with a series of blades attached to shafts in order to scoop small balls into holes as a pastime. Probably the only thing more extraordinary is that it's actually a fascinating game to play. Boring as #### to watch, for the most part, but great to play. Talk about dealing with your self with no pretenses and excuses to hide behind.
   53. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:41 AM (#4414269)
You have to get the Pimento Cheese sandwich if you're at Augusta.

Not so easy if you want the real thing!
   54. vivaelpujols Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:22 AM (#4414275)
Those seats are not about going to a baseball game, any more than membership at Augusta National is about golf. It's about networking, selling, and closing deals. (The reason the ban on women at AN is so big a deal is because it closes off a HUGE deal making network to female executives and sales resources.)


I once sat behind home plate at dodgers stadium (my aunt worked as a talent agent and was sometimes able to get dugout club tickets) and it was definitely the best place to sit in terms of watching the game. You can actually see the movement of the pitches. There's a bunch of other distracting stuff down there, but I'm guessing a lot of people who buy those tickets are going for the game.
   55. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: April 15, 2013 at 06:45 AM (#4414282)
Whining about how boring and unimportant you find golf is adolescent at the very best.

Cool story, bro.
   56. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 15, 2013 at 07:38 AM (#4414292)
Well-stated objections to the game itself, on the other hand, which is probably the clearest single representation of all the deranged things people do in order to create difficulties for themselves where none need otherwise exist, are always welcome. "A good walk spoiled", for instance, never gets old.

It's extraordinary that we came up with a series of blades attached to shafts in order to scoop small balls into holes as a pastime. Probably the only thing more extraordinary is that it's actually a fascinating game to play. Boring as #### to watch, for the most part, but great to play. Talk about dealing with your self with no pretenses and excuses to hide behind.


Great things about golf:

1. It's played in fresh air and sunshine.
2. There are an infinite variety of courses and playing conditions that can vary by the minute, as we saw yesterday. No individual sport offers a greater challenge to one's mind and motor skills.
3. You're on your own. No excuses.
4. You can play it as long as you can walk and swing a club, and in some cases even without the ability to do the former.

Not-so-great things about golf:

1. It's also played in 95 and 40 degree weather and in the rain. That's fine for football, soccer or rugby, not so fine for anything else.
2. During tournaments you have to get up too damn early. Someone should speak to the Sun about this.
3. You need too much money or too many connections to be able to play on most of the best courses.
4. If you're not used to playing and you decide to drive a couple of buckets of balls just for fun, you won't be able to move your upper body for a ####### week. This I learned from personal experience when I was 17.
   57. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 15, 2013 at 07:46 AM (#4414295)
Ah, the Masters. A tradition of entitlement unlike any other.

I think that the modern evolution of Super Bowl ticket distribution could easily go one-on-one with Augusta. Not to mention that the Masters' lack of continual timeouts accompanied by half a dozen screaming back-to-back commercials and network promos stands in blessed contrast to every other major sporting event in the world.

And if you don't like watching the first 15 or 17 holes, just tune in for the finish. It's what many of us do for the NBA.
   58. formerly dp Posted: April 15, 2013 at 08:05 AM (#4414308)
Man, I ####### hate golf. And I'm in distinguished company.
   59. Shoebo Posted: April 15, 2013 at 08:35 AM (#4414327)
I have a hard time they make it a point to tell ticket buyers that they can't where clothes with the opponents logo. I tend not to read the back of tickets or the 2 pages of fine print in a deal like this. I assume that if I go to the game and treat people respectfully, I will be fine.


I love this apples to oranges crap.

They booked a 3000 dollar suite at field level directly behind home plate, and the team told them when they booked, I'm sure over the phone, not to wear Dodger gear because it's a branding issue and it's a D Backs broadcast and they didn't want to advertise for the Dodgers in the prime location for 3+ hours. Is this so hard to understand ?

Back of the ticket ??? Yeah.....thats the same thing as this. Sure.

   60. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: April 15, 2013 at 08:55 AM (#4414331)
the team told them when they booked, I'm sure over the phone, not to wear Dodger gear because it's a branding issue


I'd be very surprised if they were told that over the phone when they booked the suite. Having said that the D-Backs weren't total ########## on this, they did say they'd refund the fans if they didn't want to follow the policy and left.

What an asinine policy though.
   61. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 15, 2013 at 08:59 AM (#4414333)
I've booked $3000 suites for Nationals games, and they don't tell you anything over the phone. But they then send you 10 page contract with all sorts of interesting details in the fine print. So I'd be very surprised if the DBacks made a point of raising the Dodger gear issue.
   62. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 15, 2013 at 09:26 AM (#4414339)
@56: you left off bicycling seven miles each way to the public golf course with your golf bag slung over your shoulder, though at age 14 it might not have been that great a hardship.

Jolly, I posted a couple thoughts on Micheal Mann's Ali back on the Selig task force re blacks thread in case you're interested. It just happened to be on this morning and I watched it in light of the discussions we've been having on 42 specifically and movies generally. I was more favorably impressed as a result this time around.

I think you mentioned the all but unsolvable problem of deciding what about Ali's life to show, but Mann doesn't shy away from the controversial. We see the assassinations, Ali's conversion to Islam, and his anger at being drafted to fight and kill people who never called him nigger, as he put it so painfully well. Mann shows Ali's infidelity without rolling around in it, and the movie does a very good job of showing a physical man's very physical attraction to beautiful women. Really well done and I'll have to check out some reviews, because I don't remember its being particularly well received. It should have been. I don't know that it's a great film, but it's a damned good one. Oh, and the boxing! The boxing is very well choreographed and photographed. I never once had the sense that I wasn't watching two guys who were trying to beat holy hell out of each other.

btw, did Ali really duck a rematch with Foreman after Zaire? I can't remember that part of his history at all.
   63. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 09:46 AM (#4414351)
Those seats are not about going to a baseball game, any more than membership at Augusta National is about golf. It's about networking, selling, and closing deals. (The reason the ban on women at AN is so big a deal is because it closes off a HUGE deal making network to female executives and sales resources.)

Any woman who will get membership at Augusta is already insanely wealthy and powerful. I'm not going to cry about her not getting a little richer.

I think the ban on women members was asinine from the beginning, but the idea that regular people should give two shits about multi-millionaire business women being denied networking opportunities is ridiculous.
   64. BourbonSamurai Is a Lazy Nogoodnik Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:03 AM (#4414359)
This clearly calls for buying the seats and then tearing open your shirt to reveal the opponents jersey at a key moment in the game
   65. formerly dp Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:07 AM (#4414364)
but the idea that regular people should give two shits about multi-millionaire business women being denied networking opportunities is ridiculous.
Way to misunderstand the issue. Classic and predictable.
   66. Deus Ex Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:39 AM (#4414384)
Was Deron Sutton one of these people?
   67. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:44 AM (#4414389)
Jolly, I posted a couple thoughts on Micheal Mann's Ali back on the Selig task force re blacks thread in case you're interested. It just happened to be on this morning and I watched it in light of the discussions we've been having on 42 specifically and movies generally. I was more favorably impressed as a result this time around.

Okay, to see for myself I just put it at the top of my Netflix queue. What channel did you see it on? I don't get any of the premium movie channels in my Fios package, and I won't watch any movie that's interrupted by commercials, no matter how great it may be.

No idea whether or not Ali ducked a Foreman rematch. That's a question for YR.
   68. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:52 AM (#4414398)
Way to misunderstand the issue. Classic and predictable.

The only issue at Augusta is whether 4 or 5 insanely wealthy and powerful women will be admitted. The club will remain massively exclusionary, and a hotbed for in-dealing and collusion among oligarchs. The only difference will be cosmetic.

Why don't we spill 10% of the ink Augusta has gotten over this on something like mandatory paid maternity leave. Something that would actually help women who need help.
   69. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:53 AM (#4414400)
I'm honored. I think Ali will at the least seriously engage you.

It was one of the channels in the low 500s (one of the HBOs, most likely). Sorry I can't be more precsie. For some reason DISH doesn't let you look at programming once it slides off the left hand side of the screen.
   70. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:55 AM (#4414403)
I would have no problem if Augusta National burned to the ground. Hallowed ground my ass. It's a living reminder of many of the worst things about America.
   71. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:58 AM (#4414405)
I would have no problem if Augusta National burned to the ground. Hallowed ground my ass. It's a living reminder of many of the worst things about America.

Me either.

It's not even a great golf course. All the US and British Open courses put it to shame.
   72. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:59 AM (#4414408)

I would have no problem if Augusta National burned to the ground.


I have a huge problem with that scenario, since it doesn't seem to include mandatory inclusion of the entire membership.
   73. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:10 AM (#4414421)
I'm not a golfer as I find it incredibly tedious. Stand...walk...wait...stand...walk...wait...but I can watch the final 9 holes of a major tourney. What really drives me nuts about golf is the insane need we have to replicate the Scottish highlands in places like Phoenix. The gods are not going to let us get away with hubris like that forever.
   74. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:11 AM (#4414422)
Andy, you hadn't seen Ali yet? - I'm shocked. Mixed bag, but definitely worth watching.

66/Deus Ex: I approve.

Not a new thought and only meant as a generalization (so I don't mean you, dear reader), but the only problem with golf is golfers.
   75. formerly dp Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:13 AM (#4414425)
The only issue at Augusta is whether 4 or 5 insanely wealthy and powerful women will be admitted.
Again, that misunderstands the issue. It's a question of the parts between one's legs being a criteria for inclusion or exclusion.
   76. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:15 AM (#4414434)
Andy, you hadn't seen Ali yet? - I'm shocked. Mixed bag, but definitely worth watching.

I'd agree with this. At least Mann took a different tack on the biopic, a genre that is mostly terrible. I was hoping the new Jackie Robinson pic would take a more impressionistic style but that was probably hoping for too much.
   77. Lassus Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:19 AM (#4414437)
It's not even a great golf course. All the US and British Open courses put it to shame.

I'm all for class warfare and burning things to the ground; but as a golfer, this statement is just plain wrong. I've even played two US Open Courses, Olympic (CA) and Bethpage Black - and someday in the next three years, Pebble. I certainly haven't played Augusta until Sam can neck-stab someone to get me on the course, but you don't need to play it to see its greatness. It isn't just window shopping for crappy expensive shat Bloomingdales.
   78. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:47 AM (#4414463)
And if you don't like watching the first 15 or 17 holes, just tune in for the finish. It's what many of us do for the NBA.
I actually really enjoy watching golf on television. I'm a terrible golfer myself, but one of my good friends was a teammate of Tiger's at Stanford when they won the national championship, and we used to hit the local links just to pass the time. My problem with the Masters isn't golf or the course, but as others have pointed out, the powers that be.
   79. greenback likes millwall Posted: April 15, 2013 at 12:15 PM (#4414481)
During the Dbacks-Cardinals that went 16 inning it was pretty clear that one of the four fans behind home plate during extra innings was wearing a Cardinals shirt. It was white with the 80s circle logo rather than an interlocking STL or a script "Cardinals" or some such, but it still was a Cardinals shirt. I couldn't figure out what the woman next to him was wearing, but Lord knows I tried.
   80. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 12:30 PM (#4414496)
It's not even a great golf course. All the US and British Open courses put it to shame.

I'm all for class warfare and burning things to the ground; but as a golfer, this statement is just plain wrong. I've even played two US Open Courses, Olympic (CA) and Bethpage Black - and someday in the next three years, Pebble. I certainly haven't played Augusta until Sam can neck-stab someone to get me on the course, but you don't need to play it to see its greatness. It isn't just window shopping for crappy expensive shat Bloomingdales.


I've got to second Lassus here. I went to a Wednesday practice round/par 3 tourney one year, that course is absolutely gorgeous.
   81. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 12:36 PM (#4414501)
I'm all for class warfare and burning things to the ground; but as a golfer, this statement is just plain wrong. I've even played two US Open Courses, Olympic (CA) and Bethpage Black - and someday in the next three years, Pebble. I certainly haven't played Augusta until Sam can neck-stab someone to get me on the course, but you don't need to play it to see its greatness. It isn't just window shopping for crappy expensive shat Bloomingdales.

Nobody goes -9 at Winged Foot.

Augusta has no rough. It uses extreme length to avoid being chewed up, which excludes a huge proportion of the field from contention, and relies on slippery greens for being difficult at all.

It's gorgeous, but it's not a great golf course. And, it's only gorgeous because they restrict play, spend an insane amount, and use masses of pesticide and fertilizer to make it pretty for a few weeks.



   82. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 12:44 PM (#4414510)
Nobody goes -9 at Winged Foot.


What about St Andrew's? Is that a shitty course because it can be played below par?

EDIT:
Oh, and BTW, Davis Love III won the '97 PGA Championship that was held at Winged Foot with a -11.
   83. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:05 PM (#4414537)
Deus Ex


The game that introduced me to gaming.

Of course, other than System Shock, I've been largely disappointed. Such is life when you're born on the summit.
   84. Publius Publicola Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:06 PM (#4414540)
Oh, and BTW, Davis Love III won the '97 PGA Championship that was held at Winged Foot with a -11.


Another example of an ugly fact ruining an otherwise lovely theory.
   85. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:16 PM (#4414556)
What about St Andrew's? Is that a shitty course because it can be played below par?

St Andrews, like almost all the Scottish style courses is weather dependent. You can't make the course hard enough that it plays tough on a warm, calm week, without making it totally FUBAR for the 40 weeks when it's cold and windy.

Augusta is objectively not as tough as the US Open Courses. Just compare the rough; there is virtually none at Augusta.

   86. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:19 PM (#4414564)
Doesn't the USGA make it point to toughen up courses before the Open? My understanding is they have the rough grown out and make the greens harder or maybe change the pin placement to be especially difficult or some kind of sadistic thing like that.
   87. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:40 PM (#4414607)
Doesn't the USGA make it point to toughen up courses before the Open? My understanding is they have the rough grown out and make the greens harder or maybe change the pin placement to be especially difficult or some kind of sadistic thing like that.

Yes. Just like they push the tees back, and mow the greens shorter.

Augusta does the same things. The members aren't playing 500+ yard par 4's.

To give an example, I know a guy who played Wing Foot about two weeks before the last Open, and he said you could put your beer down in the rough, and nor be able to find it.
   88. Lassus Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:53 PM (#4414640)
To give an example, I know a guy who played Wing Foot about two weeks before the last Open, and he said you could put your beer down in the rough, and nor be able to find it.

You still haven't answered how Love managed to beat your unattainable Winged Foot score.
   89. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:54 PM (#4414643)
Doesn't the USGA make it point to toughen up courses before the Open? My understanding is they have the rough grown out and make the greens harder or maybe change the pin placement to be especially difficult or some kind of sadistic thing like that.

Yes. Pins will be placed on slopes, for instance, or towards the front of the green, which is a cruel thing to do to anybody without a pro's backspin.

To give an example, I know a guy who played Wing Foot about two weeks before the last Open, and he said you could put your beer down in the rough, and nor be able to find it.
To put it kindly, this is an exaggeration.
   90. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:54 PM (#4414646)
You still haven't answered how Love managed to beat your unattainable Winged Foot score.

It's global warming inflating scores.
   91. Brian Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:54 PM (#4414648)
it's only gorgeous because they restrict play, spend an insane amount, and use masses of pesticide and fertilizer to make it pretty for a few weeks.


Another lovely theory bludgeoned by ugly facts.

Augusta Greenskeeping
   92. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:01 PM (#4414663)
To give an example, I know a guy who played Wing Foot about two weeks before the last Open, and he said you could put your beer down in the rough, and nor be able to find it.
To put it kindly, this is an exaggeration.


They probably let them grow that long before the tournament, and then cut them back for actual play.
   93. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:01 PM (#4414664)
Another lovely theory bludgeoned by ugly facts.

You should probably actually read the article, unless you just don't understand what reduced means.
   94. Brian Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:04 PM (#4414668)
So reduced now means an "insane amount" and "masses". Thanks Webster but I'll stick to the standard definition.
   95. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:05 PM (#4414672)
You still haven't answered how Love managed to beat your unattainable Winged Foot score.

Since WW2 the Open has been played at Winged Foot 4 times. The winning scores have been +5, -4, +7 and +2.

You can't compare a PGA Championship to an Open. The course preparation is completely different.

The groundskeepers can make the course play easy if they want to.
   96. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:08 PM (#4414682)
So reduced now means an "insane amount" and "masses". Thanks Webster but I'll stick to the standard definition.

Yes. They reduced it from an insane amount.

The other fact is they make no effort to keep Augusta playable all year. It is far easier to make a course look good when your membership is very small, and isn't demanding to play every week.
   97. Lassus Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:10 PM (#4414687)
Also, snapper, I'm not entirely sure why lack of an insane amount of rough automatically means a below-average golf course. That's a factor that makes a course more or less difficult, not one that diminishes or increases the empirical value of the course itself. It is quite secondary to architecture and a number of other factors on that scale.


Since WW2 the Open has been played at Winged Foot 4 times. The winning scores have been +5, -4, +7 and +2.

Same thing - obviously incredibly, overly low scores are kind of lame, but the fact that Winged Foot has outlied in a small sample size on the opposite end means, well, nothing in regards to the value judgment of the course. It means you personally don't like a professional score averaging 2 under par per every 18 holes of golf, but that's pretty subjective.
   98. Mike A Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:12 PM (#4414693)
As someone who played golf at a sorta kinda decent level (Division III), IMO Augusta is a top 5 course. Granted, it's not perfect. It undoubtedly lost some of it's charm with the lengthening (an unfortunate necessity brought on by improvement in equipment). There's a few so-so holes (#1 is too hard for an opener, 9 has too much slope, 18 is somewhat lackluster as a finisher, etc), but you could say that about all courses. Taken as a whole - the course conditions, the history, the setting, etc...it's at least close to perfect.

As for difficulty, some courses use wind, some courses heavy rough...Augusta uses fast and difficult greens. You grow the rough to Winged Foot level at Augusta and it would be unplayable. And besides, I like to see some birdies out there. US Opens where players are struggling to break par and always hitting to the safe parts of greens to get their 2-putt par are boring. Augusta is all about risk/reward, and it's what has made the back nine on Sunday so fun to watch (like yesterday).

To me, it's hallowed ground, much like Wrigley/Fenway are to me as a baseball fan. I know the Augusta past has been spotty (see also MLB) and golf certainly has a bit of an elitism surrounding it. But, like many things, it's getting better.
   99. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:17 PM (#4414701)
Also, snapper, I'm not entirely sure why lack of an insane amount of rough automatically means a below-average golf course. That's a factor that makes a course more or less difficult, not one that diminishes or increases the empirical value of the course itself. It is quite secondary to architecture and a number of other factors on that scale.

It undoubtedly lost some of it's charm with the lengthening (an unfortunate necessity brought on by improvement in equipment). There's a few so-so holes (#1 is too hard for an opener, 9 has too much slope, 18 is somewhat lackluster as a finisher, etc), but you could say that about all courses. Taken as a whole - the course conditions, the history, the setting, etc...it's pretty close to perfect.

As for difficulty, some courses use wind, some courses heavy rough...Augusta uses fast and difficult greens. You grow the rough to Winged Foot level at Augusta and it would be unplayable. And besides, I like to see some birdies out there. US Opens where players are struggling to break par and always hitting to the safe parts of greens to get their 2-putt par are boring. Augusta is all about risk/reward, and it's what has made the back nine on Sunday so fun to watch (like yesterday).


The length and lack of rough at Augusta make it a quite unfair, and less interesting course. Guys who can't hit really long are horribly disadvantaged, while the long hitter can bomb away without worrying about getting into too much trouble. The fact that guys can be 40 yards off the fairway and not have to lay up is a fatal indictment, IMHO.

In a Major, you should have to hit the fairways to win.
   100. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:21 PM (#4414709)
Whining about how boring and unimportant you find golf is adolescent at the very best.


If being adolescent is the price I need to pay to not be forced to watch golf, I'm happy to pay it.
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