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Sunday, September 24, 2017

A’s Bruce Maxwell kneels for anthem | MLB.com

Baseball players join the movement.

Jim Furtado Posted: September 24, 2017 at 11:02 AM | 94 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: athletics, bruce maxwell

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   1. bookbook Posted: September 24, 2017 at 11:06 AM (#5537657)
Good for him. Patriotism isn't always easy. These athletes are taking risks to improve the country that they love.
   2. Traderdave Posted: September 24, 2017 at 11:42 AM (#5537668)
I was at that game. From where I sat, middle deck on 3B side, the crowd didn't seem to take much notice. I was looking at the flag on the Jumbotron, as I expect most were. After hearing about it, I replayed the tape in my head & remembered seeing it in the corner of my eye, and in particular recall seeing Canha's hand on his shoulder. That stuck with me more than the kneel, for whatever reason.

But when the Apple News wire started hitting everyone's phones a couple innings later, there was a distinct buzz in the crowd. People
were showing the news story to others, talking about it audibly from a few rows away. A little bit later I was in the bathroom line and then the beer line and the crowd was all over the story. Every voice I heard was in support.
   3. Greg K Posted: September 24, 2017 at 11:46 AM (#5537669)
But when the Apple News wire started hitting everyone's phones a couple innings later, there was a distinct buzz in the crowd. People
were showing the news story to others, talking about it audibly from a few rows away. A little bit later I was in the bathroom line and then the beer line and the crowd was all over the story. Every voice I heard was in support.

It's perfectly understandable how this happens (when the national anthem is going I'm rarely looking at the players). But there's something plain weird about a tech company telling a group of people about the event they weren't aware they witnessed a half-hour ago.
   4. Baldrick Posted: September 24, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5537670)
Lots of respect to Maxwell. That's a tough choice, especially for a marginal player. Glad to see his team and teammates seem to be supportive and no one is attacking him for bringing controversy. It's Oakland, obviously, which probably makes it a little safer than if he were on the Cardinals or something, but still...
   5. Jeff Francoeur's OPS Posted: September 24, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5537671)
There is no escape from politics anymore but to live off the grid. Enjoy!
   6. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: September 24, 2017 at 12:11 PM (#5537675)
There is no escape from politics anymore but to live off the grid. Enjoy!


There never was. Living off the grid doesn't help, unless you're so far off you don't use money and thus don't have to deal with the "In God We Trust" the Christianists foisted off on the rest of us back in the 50s.
   7. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: September 24, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5537680)
#### this guy.
   8. Traderdave Posted: September 24, 2017 at 12:27 PM (#5537682)
Why would the nanny cross out "Love" this guy? Or "Like" this guy? Or "Respect" this guy?

That are the only words a sane person would use, just trying to suss out which one you used, Pat Rapper.
   9. BDC Posted: September 24, 2017 at 12:48 PM (#5537694)
But there's something plain weird about a tech company telling a group of people about the event they weren't aware they witnessed a half-hour ago

Jean-Philippe Toussaint wrote an essay about being at the 2006 World Cup final where Zidane was shown a red card for his famous head-butt. He notes that a couple of billion people saw it live on TV, and then saw it over and over and over, while many of those actually present in Berlin (like him) missed it, and had no idea what the heck had happened for a while.
   10. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: September 24, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5537697)
Why would the nanny cross out "Love" this guy? Or "Like" this guy? Or "Respect" this guy?

That are the only words a sane person would use, just trying to suss out which one you used, Pat Rapper.


He was probably talking about Trump. No?
   11. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 24, 2017 at 01:07 PM (#5537699)
During A's games at the Coliseum in the early 70's, very few fans in the upper deck stood up during the Anthem. Those of us who did were a distinct minority. I doubt if this was the case during Raiders' games.
   12. Cargo Cultist Posted: September 24, 2017 at 01:34 PM (#5537706)
#### Maxwell and anyone else who publicly disrespects America.

I will not support a commercial organization that permits America to be publicly disrespected. I threw my A’s hat in the trash and will never watch or attend another A’s game. The MLB and its players have the right of free speech and the right to disrespect America; I have the right to not support anyone who does so with my dollars, and I refuse to ever do so.

I stopped going to and watching NFL games when they turned into public exercises in disrespecting America. I will do the same to baseball if it continues down a stupid road that will piss off the non-Leftist half of America.

NFL ratings are down and NFL stadiums are empty because this disrespect has angered patriotic Americans. Baseball can join that trend if it wants to. If it does, to Hell with it. God bless America, and #### anyone who ever takes a knee anywhere during the National Anthem.
   13. cardsfanboy Posted: September 24, 2017 at 01:37 PM (#5537708)
#### Maxwell and anyone else who publicly disrespects America.


I don't think that word means what you think it means, he's showing respect by honoring the first amendment.

I will not support a commercial organization that permits America to be publicly disrespected. I threw my A’s hat in the trash and will never watch or attend another A’s game. The MLB and its players have the right of free speech and the right to disrespect America; I have the right to not support anyone who does so with my dollars, and I refuse to ever do so.

I stopped going to and watching NFL games when they turned into public exercises in disrespecting America. I will do the same to baseball if it continues down a stupid road that will piss off the non-Leftist half of America.

NFL ratings are down and NFL stadiums are empty because this disrespect has angered patriotic Americans. Baseball can join that trend if it wants to. If it does, to Hell with it. God bless America, and #### anyone who ever takes a knee anywhere during the National Anthem.


I always love seeing people who never serve getting this upset about this issue, it's hilarious. (no clue if Cargo served or not, just pointing out that many people putting the same argument out there, are the same chickenhawks who will never work a day for their country)
   14. Khrushin it bro Posted: September 24, 2017 at 01:42 PM (#5537709)
#### the 1st amendment! Whoever thought they should be able to disagree with me is a moron!
   15. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: September 24, 2017 at 01:55 PM (#5537713)
There is nothing more American than freedom of speech and expression. Standing up against the government when you see a wrong in society, is the most patriotic thing you can do.

Real patriots don't dodge the draft unless they're CO's.

Take a knee is not about disrespect for the flag. It's about protesting police brutality.
   16. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: September 24, 2017 at 02:02 PM (#5537714)
Add Howie Long, Terry Bradshaw and Colin Powell to the list of people who voice their disagreement with trump.
   17. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: September 24, 2017 at 02:04 PM (#5537716)
We should strive to be a country where everyone wants to stand for the National Anthem.
   18. Boxkutter Posted: September 24, 2017 at 02:06 PM (#5537717)
I love how someone can come out and say "this is not meant to disrespect any member of the military or my country which I love" but some people will continue to say it does disrespect them because they just want to be butthurt snowflakes.
   19. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: September 24, 2017 at 02:11 PM (#5537719)
#### Maxwell and anyone else who publicly disrespects America.
I've always found it strange that people will kowtow to America's flag while simultaneously and happily crap all over actual Americans.
   20. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: September 24, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5537720)
And I love how Trump complains about peaceful protest but defends the torch bearing neo nazis in Charlottesville. Good people.
   21. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: September 24, 2017 at 02:18 PM (#5537722)
Add Rex Ryan to the list of people unhappy with Trump on this matter.
   22. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 24, 2017 at 02:32 PM (#5537724)
It's okay to have a politically dissenting voice if you are a millionaire celebrity, but anyone else raise a dissenting peep in corporate America and off with their heads.

In what other country would a mixed-race orphan become a millionaire 40x over playing professional sports? Maybe not for long once it's deemed too violent to exist. Gotta stamp out minority-oppressing fascism ASAP.
   23. simon bedford Posted: September 24, 2017 at 02:41 PM (#5537728)
What other country? um a bunch, Mario Balotelli is an adopted multi millionaire playing sports for example.
   24. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 24, 2017 at 02:53 PM (#5537731)
I will not support a commercial organization that permits America to be publicly disrespected. I threw my A’s hat in the trash and will never watch or attend another A’s game. The MLB and its players have the right of free speech and the right to disrespect America; I have the right to not support anyone who does so with my dollars, and I refuse to ever do so.

I stopped going to and watching NFL games when they turned into public exercises in disrespecting America. I will do the same to baseball if it continues down a stupid road that will piss off the non-Leftist half of America.
Does anyone believe a word of this?
   25. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 24, 2017 at 03:17 PM (#5537737)
I will not support a commercial organization that permits America to be publicly disrespected. I threw my A’s hat in the trash and will never watch or attend another A’s game. The MLB and its players have the right of free speech and the right to disrespect America; I have the right to not support anyone who does so with my dollars, and I refuse to ever do so.

I stopped going to and watching NFL games when they turned into public exercises in disrespecting America. I will do the same to baseball if it continues down a stupid road that will piss off the non-Leftist half of America.


Does anyone believe a word of this?

About as much as I believe people who said they'd never watch another baseball game because of steroids or [fill in the blank].

OTOH I can think of one pretty good reason for boycotting stadiums, as opposed to not watching games on TV: A guy last night told me he'd gotten a free ticket to FedEx to see the Redskins' opening game, but he also said that the person who sported him the ticket had to pay $75.00 for parking. I didn't believe him but he swore it was true, and he said he'd never dream of going to that stadium on his own money.
   26. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 24, 2017 at 03:20 PM (#5537738)
I will not support a commercial organization that permits America to be publicly disrespected. I threw my A’s hat in the trash

Yeah, this dude would've loved being around the Oakland Coliseum in the Charlie O era. See post #11.
   27. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: September 24, 2017 at 03:44 PM (#5537743)
Maxwell, who earlier in the day published an Instagram post and a series of tweets in reaction to remarks by President Donald Trump, kneeled with his hand on his heart facing the American flag as teammate Mark Canha placed his hand on Maxwell's shoulder.

(...)Canha said he "sensed a lot of passion coming from Bruce."

"You have a lot of people in this clubhouse from a lot of different corners of the country, different corners of the globe, and with a lot of different beliefs," Canha said. "I think there was certainly some discomfort. I mean, he's the first guy in baseball to do this. But I saw a lot of guys go up to him and give him a hug and say, 'I support you doing this. You're doing the right thing for standing up for what you believe.'"

(...)Canha said he will continue to stand by Maxwell's side.

"He told everyone before the game what he was going to do, and I could tell he was getting kind of choked up and emotional about his beliefs and how he feels about the racial discrimination that's going on in this country right now," Canha said. "I felt like every fiber in my being was telling me that he needed a brother today."

That's a solid teammate.
   28. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: September 24, 2017 at 03:46 PM (#5537744)
I will not support a commercial organization that permits America to be publicly disrespected. I threw my A’s hat in the trash and will never watch or attend another A’s game.

Why would you limit this just to the A's? Major League Baseball is the organization permitting this protest; if they banned Maxwell from the league for life, that would be the end of it.

I mean, surely, if they could justify banning Pete Rose from the game just for gambling, they can find the justification to ban Maxwell for kneeling during the pre-game performance of Francis Scott Key's tune "The Star-Spangled Banner."

Your decision to support MLB for their cowardice here shows us all your true face: You don't support America, you just want Dustin Garneau to get more playing time this year. Which is fine, but, you know, at least be honest about your motivations. You're not fooling anybody.
   29. Morty Causa Posted: September 24, 2017 at 04:22 PM (#5537750)
Pete Rose didn't just gamble.
   30. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: September 24, 2017 at 04:26 PM (#5537751)
Pete Rose didn't just gamble.



Irregardless.
   31. Greg K Posted: September 24, 2017 at 04:39 PM (#5537755)
During A's games at the Coliseum in the early 70's, very few fans in the upper deck stood up during the Anthem. Those of us who did were a distinct minority. I doubt if this was the case during Raiders' games.

For Labour Day games (a big day in the CFL calendar) they set up temporary stands in the end zones of the old stadium here in Saskatchewan. As students we used to get cheap seats there near the top. Standing during the national anthem was only for the brave. Those things swayed pretty bad and you wanted 4-point contact with the bleacher at all times.
   32. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: September 24, 2017 at 04:39 PM (#5537756)
Pete Rose didn't just gamble.
And Francis Scott Key can't be blamed for the tune.
   33. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: September 24, 2017 at 07:38 PM (#5537804)
I just don't get why this angers some people? Maybe I'm just a moron and can't see the issue with this. The guy is kneeling because he is protesting against police brutality, how is is this disrespecting (not my choice of words) the flag? or America?

You can honor America in a lot of different ways, why is standing at a sporting event during the national anthem even a thing? You can still sing along and think about the the people that lost their lives for American without standing...or even singing for that matter. Do you need to do the hand on heart thing? Does that complete the package or is it only half arsed if you stand, sing but no hand on heart? Is that disrespectful? How about standing, hand on heart, but no singing? Is that acceptable? Do you need the trifecta or is it disrespectful? Because if you do then there are A LOT of disrespectful people. Most are standing on their phones anyway. That seems quite dismissive towards the occurring event.

The whole thing is ludicrous really.
   34. Sunday silence Posted: September 24, 2017 at 07:56 PM (#5537806)
a lot of people are really bad at singing, I think you're missing that.
   35. Nero Wolfe, Indeed Posted: September 24, 2017 at 08:03 PM (#5537808)
Personally, I'd stand for the Anthem, but support those who wish to do otherwise. Their right to sit/kneel/avoid is equal to my right to stand.
   36. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 24, 2017 at 08:21 PM (#5537816)
I only stand for Cotton Eye Joe.
   37. 'Spos Posted: September 24, 2017 at 08:37 PM (#5537818)
I only stand for Cotton Eye Joe.


You monster, I only stand for Take Me Out To The Ballgame.
   38. Morty Causa Posted: September 24, 2017 at 08:39 PM (#5537819)
Pete Rose didn't just gamble.


Irregardless


It's unpossible.
   39. PreservedFish Posted: September 24, 2017 at 09:20 PM (#5537828)
The MLB and its players have the right of free speech and the right to disrespect America; I have the right to not support anyone who does so with my dollars, and I refuse to ever do so.

This seems incoherent. How was MLB supposed to stop Maxwell? And whatever those actions are, how are they compatible with you supporting his right to protest?
   40. Bote Man Posted: September 24, 2017 at 09:33 PM (#5537830)
GBA or GTFO!!!
   41. Nero Wolfe, Indeed Posted: September 24, 2017 at 09:42 PM (#5537831)
Does anyone believe a word of this?


Only as performance art.
   42. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: September 24, 2017 at 10:03 PM (#5537836)
Obviously I support his right to kneel, and I support certain fans' right to boo him for kneeling, and I support other fans' right to judge the fans that are booing. Basically, do whatever you want, and everyone can decide whether or not you're shitty or not based upon what political laundry you root for.

That being said, the hypocrisy of progressives crying foul over professional consequences for folks like Kaep but insisting that corporates can fire individuals who express views contrary to corporate 'values' (whatever that means) is breathtaking. Either you support private organizations punishing political speech with economic consequences or you don't.
   43. cardsfanboy Posted: September 24, 2017 at 10:10 PM (#5537840)
Personally, I'd stand for the Anthem, but support those who wish to do otherwise. Their right to sit/kneel/avoid is equal to my right to stand.


Agree, I refuse to stand for God Bless America(and my poor girlfriend has to listen to me rail on it every time) but yes I'm standing for the National anthem, but I don't expect everyone to, it's your right to do whatever you want(mostly) if you aren't going to stand, don't be an ass, shut up and wait the 3 minutes or so.
   44. Baldrick Posted: September 24, 2017 at 10:58 PM (#5537848)
That being said, the hypocrisy of progressives crying foul over professional consequences for folks like Kaep but insisting that corporates can fire individuals who express views contrary to corporate 'values' (whatever that means) is breathtaking. Either you support private organizations punishing political speech with economic consequences or you don't.

My crazy position is that people should (in relatively rare circumstances) be punished for BAD speech, and certainly should not be punished for GOOD speech.

I admit that this doesn't have the virtue of being an absolutist position on the concept of free speech, but I think I can live with that.
   45. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: September 24, 2017 at 11:45 PM (#5537861)
That being said, the hypocrisy of progressives crying foul over professional consequences for folks like Kaep but insisting that corporates can fire individuals who express views contrary to corporate 'values' (whatever that means) is breathtaking.
No one is claiming the NFL is breaking any laws by not bringing in Kaepernick. The consequences are garbage but, as far as anyone can see, illegal.
   46. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 24, 2017 at 11:49 PM (#5537863)
Somebody help me with the symbolism of kneeling for the NA. Or the anthem singer in Detroit who simultaneously kneeled while raising a fist.

Seems like an act of submission to me.
   47. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: September 24, 2017 at 11:53 PM (#5537864)
My crazy position is that people should (in relatively rare circumstances) be punished for BAD speech, and certainly should not be punished for GOOD speech.

I admit that this doesn't have the virtue of being an absolutist position on the concept of free speech, but I think I can live with that.


I don't know how you can have any sort of conviction on what constitutes "BAD" or "GOOD" political speech. I generally am not a fan of trying to get people whose politics I disagree with fired from their jobs. But to the extent that firings for offending someone becomes a 'thing', then it cuts both ways, since its close enough to a 50/50 country that offense has economic consequences no matter which side is offended.
   48. Chicago Joe Posted: September 24, 2017 at 11:54 PM (#5537865)
Seems like an act of submission to me.


Or mourning, perhaps.
   49. Chicago Joe Posted: September 24, 2017 at 11:59 PM (#5537867)
he hypocrisy of progressives crying foul over professional consequences for folks like Kaep but insisting that corporates can fire individuals who express views contrary to corporate 'values'


Random HR person isn't going to win you any football games.
   50. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:00 AM (#5537868)
Seems like an act of submission to me.
Then you shouldn't have a problem with it.
   51. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:01 AM (#5537869)
Somebody help me with the symbolism of kneeling for the NA.


You're thinking too much. You're supposed to stand for the NA. Kneeling is not standing.
   52. Omineca Greg Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:07 AM (#5537871)
I knew an Irishman who always bent down to tie his shoes when they were singing "God Save The Queen" (the anthem, not the Sex Pistols).

And that was in the 70s.
   53. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:12 AM (#5537874)
My crazy position is that people should (in relatively rare circumstances) be punished for BAD speech, and certainly should not be punished for GOOD speech.

I admit that this doesn't have the virtue of being an absolutist position on the concept of free speech, but I think I can live with that.


Although I bet that you and I have very similar ideas about what speech is bad and what good, your position seems potentially tyrannical.
   54. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:19 AM (#5537877)
I knew an Irishman who always bent down to tie his shoes when they were singing "God Save The Queen" (the anthem, not the Sex Pistols).

At the NFL game in London, some players knelt for TSSB and stood for GSTQ.

Tory scum.
   55. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:27 AM (#5537878)
Then you shouldn't have a problem with it.

Beyond the incoherent message and delivery, I have a problem with groupthink from every side. Sports crowds give me the heebies, honestly, and I've always disliked the forced attention of the anthem and the pledge and largely ignored them my whole life.

But if you are going to stand up against some injustice, taking a knee doesn't cut it.

Or mourning, perhaps.

Now THAT would make sense.

Funny a The Divider-In-Chief's praise for player-owner solidarity. Nothing unites like a common enemy.
   56. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:36 AM (#5537881)
...about what speech is bad and what good, your position seems potentially tyrannical.

The worst crowds of all are those gathered in moral righteousness, which generally signals a public hanging of some sort. Morality is too linked to what other people think to be a solid standard. A clearly defined ethics that weighs human behavior can be much firmer ground upon which to stand.

Nietzsche was at his best on this topic.
   57. Bote Man Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:46 AM (#5537883)
I knew an Irishman who always bent down to tie his shoes when they were singing "God Save The Queen" (the anthem, not the Sex Pistols).

And that was in the 70s.


You neglected to mention that the singers were his fellow rugby players and they were all in the gang showers. The 70s was a looser time.
   58. Meatwad in mourning Posted: September 25, 2017 at 01:06 AM (#5537887)
Half the time I am tempted to sit for the anthem but i sure as hell always sit for gba, iirc retro shares the hatred of gba that I do.
   59. Baldrick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 01:35 AM (#5537895)
Although I bet that you and I have very similar ideas about what speech is bad and what good, your position seems potentially tyrannical.

I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that the lines between 'good' and 'bad' speech are going to get drawn quite differently by many people. But in a decently-functioning society, the vast majority of people will broadly agree on the rough contours of what's okay and what's not - and they will also acknowledge that the only stuff that can practically be regulated is the stuff that fits into that category. They will, therefore, spend a lot more time trying to convince people that "X speech really is THAT bad" and less time dancing in pinheads about some theoretical concept of 'free speech' that (almost) no one actually believes in.

Obviously, that depends on having a reasonably well functioning society. But if you don't have that, this all breaks down anyway.

Anyways, I mostly just find hypocrisy-trolling to be incredibly tiresome. And there are few subjects that provoke tedious hypocrisy-trolling than free speech debates on the internets.
   60. Omineca Greg Posted: September 25, 2017 at 01:40 AM (#5537897)
The 70s was a looser time.

Not in Ireland.
   61. Bug Selig Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:19 AM (#5537908)
We should strive to be a country where everyone wants to stand for the National Anthem.
And where nobody is bullied into it.
   62. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:27 AM (#5537910)
The only national anthem I'll stand for is David Lee Roth's "Yankee Rose".
   63. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:32 AM (#5537913)
Anyways, I mostly just find hypocrisy-trolling to be incredibly tiresome. And there are few subjects that provoke tedious hypocrisy-trolling than free speech debates on the internets.


I'm not hypocrisy trolling. I bet I'm one of the few (if only) in this thread who people have actually tried to get fired over speech. They were on another forum in an obscure corner of the Internet, and they were so exercised about my view on this topic (I don't want to say what it was, for reasons that will be obvious below, but safe to say it was akin to arguing that a pizza place most people thought was the best in New York was overrated), thata number of folks convinced themselves it was just and fair for them to dox me and then CONTACT MY EMPLOYER (ACTUALLY THE CEO HIMSELF!) AND ASK FOR ME TO BE TERMINATED AS OFFENSIVE ON THE INTERNET.

You might think this is so crazy that it would be ignored. But no, this is 2017. My employer had to investigate an ultimately exonerate me. But I am barred from posting on the internet about pizza, because theyre worried these lunatics might try to take revenge on my employer for my continued employ.

There is nothing like retaliatory action against speech to turn one into a 'free speech absolutist'. My sense is that people like Baldrick, who prefers speech he approves to speech that's free, has never been in the minority about an issue that others felt strongly about and so has never had to see why free speech is the most important concept in the entire silly experiment of ours. Given the hell that you have to pay to defend your speech from mere individuals, I cannot even imagine what it must be like to have the state come after you. Nothing would chill dissent faster. Dissent is good.
   64. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:36 AM (#5537915)
And that's why the correct view on this one is "they can kneel, I reserve the right to judge them, and you can judge me for judging them, and I can judge you for judging me for judging them", and so on and so forth. It's the American way.
   65. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:39 AM (#5537916)
Obviously I support his right to kneel, and I support certain fans' right to boo him for kneeling, and I support other fans' right to judge the fans that are booing. Basically, do whatever you want, and everyone can decide whether or not you're shitty or not based upon what political laundry you root for.

That being said, the hypocrisy of progressives crying foul over professional consequences for folks like Kaep but insisting that corporates can fire individuals who express views contrary to corporate 'values' (whatever that means) is breathtaking. Either you support private organizations punishing political speech with economic consequences or you don't.

I am ok with the NFL deciding to punish players for this as they want, as long as it is consistent with the CBA and the contracts they have signed. I think it would be stupid, but companies do have the right to do stupid things I don't agree with. And they are free to associate or not associate with whomever they want, for whatever reason they want.

Of course from what I have seen, we have seen most teams going the opposite direction, and instead expressing solidarity and support for their players. So faith in humanity restored, at least a little bit.

The issue with Kaep and the NFL though, has some key differences though, compared to generic company X sacking somebody for politically incorrect speech, or for PR reasons. The issue is whether the NFL is engaging in collusion in keeping him out of the NFL, something they have specifically agreed with the player's association not to do. There is a big difference between a club deciding not to sign a guy (even if the reason is stupid), and 32 companies coming together to make sure that person can never be employed again.

The NFL also pretty much represents the sum total of all employers, who could conceivably employ him. The consequences of being shutout by a de facto monopoly are obviously different, than when a fired guy can reasonably go and apply to dozens of other companies in the same field.
   66. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:41 AM (#5537917)
We should strive to be a country where everyone wants to stand for the National Anthem.
And where nobody is bullied into it.

Standing or striving?
   67. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:51 AM (#5537919)
And that's why the correct view on this one is "they can kneel, I reserve the right to judge them, and you can judge me for judging them, and I can judge you for judging me for judging them", and so on and so forth. It's the American way.

It's funny that after all that ranting, you basically come down on the standard line progressive stance on the issue. Unless your line includes a caveat 'except employers, they are never allowed to judge anyone or fire them for speech that makes them look bad'... which would be odd, since 'employers can fire employees for any reason' is basically one of the 10 commandments on the right.

The 'you must tolerate my intolerance, and can never judge me for it' is almost exclusively a talking point on the right.
   68. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:55 AM (#5537923)
The issue is whether the NFL is engaging in collusion in keeping him out of the NFL

This weekend should put an end to that argument. Unless the NFL disbands the Raiders.
   69. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:57 AM (#5537924)
So faith in humanity restored, at least a little bit.

Crazy pants.
   70. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:00 AM (#5537927)
I mean, the standard line for all reasonable people is pretty close. Do what you want, the state should stay out of it, but private firms might not like it. But to think there's a distinction between being, say, fired and rendered unhireable by your Google trace and what's happening to Kaep is pretty silly. Does anyone think organized collusion is going on, rather than 32 political-teat-sucking owners demonstrating that they prize anodynity in their players?
   71. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:03 AM (#5537928)
This weekend should put an end to that argument. Unless the NFL disbands the Raiders.

Because Derek Carr had one shitty game? Talk about crazy pants.
   72. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:04 AM (#5537930)
That must have been a pretty savage argument about pizza.
   73. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:08 AM (#5537932)
The issue with Kaep and the NFL though, has some key differences though, compared to generic company X sacking somebody for politically incorrect speech, or for PR reasons. The issue is whether the NFL is engaging in collusion in keeping him out of the NFL, something they have specifically agreed with the player's association not to do. There is a big difference between a club deciding not to sign a guy (even if the reason is stupid), and 32 companies coming together to make sure that person can never be employed again.

I don't think Kaepernick represents a case of collusion, but rather three different motivations that can make it seem that way to an outsider.

For some owners, there's a reasonable case that the team's existing backup QB's are better replacements than Kaepernick.

In other cases, it's not that the owner has any particular objection to Kaepernick per se, it's just that he's scared to death of being, er, primaried by a certain segment of his fan base that's egged on by Trump and right wing sports talk hosts.**

And in yet other cases, it's that in spite of their PR statements of yesterday, they basically agree with Trump that the player who "started all this" has no place in the NFL.

** Obviously not all sports talk hosts are right wing, but I've heard enough of them to realize they're not just a tiny minority.
   74. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:09 AM (#5537933)
Does anyone think organized collusion is going on

Plenty of people think exactly that, yes. It personally wouldn't shock me either way, though I would lean towards no. But I honestly can't see how anybody from the outside could feel certain about it being one way or the other.

And of course regardless of that, people get to voice their displeasure of NFL owners, and judge them for acting that way, whatever their reason. So it goes. As you said "I reserve the right to judge them, and you can judge me for judging them, and I can judge you for judging me for judging them". Why should the judgement stop short of the NFL owners' feet.
   75. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:14 AM (#5537934)
That must have been a pretty savage argument about pizza.

I know some people who are very very serious about pizza.

That said, I would go out on a limb, and guess that the issue at hand was probably something a bit more serious... at least from the view of the other side. One-sided views of an argument are always, well, one-sided.

That said of course, doxxing is an incredibly shitty thing to do, and way past any reasonable line, no matter what the argument was about.
   76. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:21 AM (#5537936)
That said, I would go out on a limb, and guess that the issue at hand was probably something a bit more serious... at least from the view of the other side.


The specific trigger was that I had said there was no way they could tell if one pizza was better than the other, because eating 12 slices at a single meal was gluttonous and ruined your palate, and gorging on pizza like that was disrespectful to the guy who cooked it anyways, since by slice 6 you were just shoving it down.
   77. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:25 AM (#5537938)
I've been making this Sicilian pizza recipe at home pretty frequently lately. It's fantastic.
   78. McCoy Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:27 AM (#5537939)
Sounds like cannon balling a TV show.
   79. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:47 AM (#5537946)
Every Raider knelt. Or so NPR told me.
   80. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:47 AM (#5537948)
The refs shoulda called it a game right then and there.

Raiders fan, fwiw.
   81. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: September 25, 2017 at 09:27 AM (#5537962)
I've been making this Sicilian pizza recipe at home pretty frequently lately. It's fantastic.


Attributing it to PSP is a bit shady though. This is the Deans / Adriennes recipe that started to get traction in NYC in 2005 or so. It has the huge advantage of not needing a special oven.
   82. Gary Truth Serum Posted: September 25, 2017 at 09:29 AM (#5537964)
Every Raider knelt. Or so NPR told me.

While there were far more Raiders kneeling than Redskins kneeling, Derek Carr was standing. It looked like a few others were standing as well.
   83. Baldrick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 09:34 AM (#5537969)
There is nothing like retaliatory action against speech to turn one into a 'free speech absolutist'. My sense is that people like Baldrick, who prefers speech he approves to speech that's free, has never been in the minority about an issue that others felt strongly about and so has never had to see why free speech is the most important concept in the entire silly experiment of ours. Given the hell that you have to pay to defend your speech from mere individuals, I cannot even imagine what it must be like to have the state come after you. Nothing would chill dissent faster. Dissent is good.

Do you think someone ought to be subject to discipline if they engage in repeated and aggressive workplace sexual harassment?
   84. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 09:36 AM (#5537970)
Not a lawyer, but I'm pretty damn sure there's a well-established difference between free speech and harassment.
   85. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:18 AM (#5538007)
Every Raider knelt. Or so NPR told me.


While there were far more Raiders kneeling than Redskins kneeling, Derek Carr was standing. It looked like a few others were standing as well.

Whoever wrote that first statement was simply lying. Here's what NPR actually said:
The last NFL game of the day, Washington hosted Oakland, was played in Landover, Md. — not far from the White House.

Most of Oakland's team sat on their bench during the anthem while most of Washington's team stood arm-in-arm along with owner Dan Snyder and president Bruce Allen.
   86. Lars6788 Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:25 AM (#5538144)

Seems like an act of submission to me.


Kaepernick and Nate Boyer on kneeling
   87. Baldrick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:28 AM (#5538149)
Not a lawyer, but I'm pretty damn sure there's a well-established difference between free speech and harassment.

Of course there is. One is a form of speech that we've decided is bad and therefore have no particular qualms about regulating. The other is a form of speech that we think is good and deserves to be free.
   88. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:40 AM (#5538178)
That being said, the hypocrisy of progressives crying foul over professional consequences for folks like Kaep but insisting that corporates can fire individuals who express views contrary to corporate 'values' (whatever that means) is breathtaking


Nobody is saying that the NFL can't blacklist Kaepernick, just that it shouldn't, because his position has merit. So no hypocrisy. All companies have the right to do what they want, speech-wise, and all consumers have the right to vote with their wallets when companies crack down on speech for reasons that those consumers find objectionable.

If people taking a stand in favor of civil rights end up garnering more public support than actual literal Nazis, well, then maybe the Nazis need better arguments.
   89. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:56 AM (#5538212)
While there were far more Raiders kneeling than Redskins kneeling, Derek Carr was standing. It looked like a few others were standing as well.

###### NPR.
   90. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:58 AM (#5538216)
Thanks for the link, Lars. Before engaging in symbolic protest, people need to think it through a little more.
   91. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: September 25, 2017 at 02:39 PM (#5538507)
Of course there is. One is a form of speech that we've decided is bad and therefore have no particular qualms about regulating. The other is a form of speech that we think is good and deserves to be free.


Thus demonstrating a nuanced and educated understanding of the question.
   92. Baldrick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 03:00 PM (#5538534)
Thus demonstrating a nuanced and educated understanding of the question.

I mean, since you bring it up, I have a phd in political theory with a focus on liberalism and the law, so...yes?

What part do you disagree with?
   93. Khrushin it bro Posted: September 25, 2017 at 03:32 PM (#5538580)
Were people even more angry back in the 60s when people would burn flags? That seems a lot more disrespectful than kneeling during the anthem.
   94. Baldrick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 03:55 PM (#5538608)
Were people even more angry back in the 60s when people would burn flags? That seems a lot more disrespectful than kneeling during the anthem.

The federal government and vast majority of states (47 or 48 IIRC) passed flag desecration laws over the 60s and 70s. The Supreme Court struck them down in one of the inner circle 1st Amendment blockbusters (Texas v. Johnson) in 1989. Since then, Congress has regularly made a habit of taking up a Flag Desecration Amendment. It passed in the House quite a few times without passing the Senate, though it came very close (just a vote or two away from passing).

So yes, people get pretty heated up about flag burning.

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