Too much? Not enough, says I.

Haren's a great fit for AZ. :D

I'm hoping Arizona's the Braves in this one, not the Cardinals.

Carlos Gonzalez is the stud right?

Whoa.

Trade wise, this is the most interesting offseason I've seen in quite some time.

If the DBacks didn't give up Chris Young, this is a win for them

guess this means Haren is cycling off, huh?

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071214&content_id=2326595&vkey=hotstove2007&fext;=.jsp

Aaron Cunningham, Chris Carter and Dana Eveland round out the deal.

Jose Valverde to the Astros for Chris Burke and Chad Qualls.

Nevermind

Gonzalez and Anderson are very good prospects. Cunningham seems like he might not be too project-able, but his numbers have been pretty good. Greg Smith doesn't seem overly impressive.

So A's prospect lists look something like this now:

1. Gonzalez
2. Barton
3. Anderson
4. Cahill
5. Rodriguez
6. Simmons
7. Cunningham
8. Bailey
9+ ?

That's a pretty good group of pitchers, and both Barton and Gonzalez should pan out pretty well. It will be interesting to see how the OF pans out with Swisher, Buck, and Gonzalez. Can Buck play CF? Or do they try to deal Cust to move Swisher to 1b and Barton to DH, then get a CF?

Jose Valverde to the Astros for Chris Burke and Chad Qualls.

Holy ####### trades, batman. Trader Josh indeed!

Regardless of the prospects, this is a great deal for AZ. I'm a huge fan of Haren. And I believe in Chris Young still. Anyone want to comment on the quality of prospects going to Oakland?

Az fans, what are the plans for Upton this year? I have him and Longoria (and Young) in my league and can only keep 5 players- very deep league, trying to decide how much faith I put in young talent. Last year I used a spot on Young and he killed me (we use BA/OB%/SLG).

Jose Valverde to the Astros for Chris Burke and Chad Qualls.

Robo says:

In a companion deal, the Diamondbacks are sending closer Jose Valverde to the Astros for reliever Chad Qualls, infielder Chris Burke and Class AAA right-hander Juan Gutierrez.

Ed Wade really expects to compete this year, doesn't he?

Gonna be tough with that depth.

Haren to....


Red Sox: NO

Yankmees: NO

Minayets: HAHAHA

DBacks: Nice one, Jed

Webb, Haren, Davis, RJ/Buckner/Petit?, Owings

Looks like a strong starting 5 for the NL and a *very* strong starting 5 if Randy Johnson is healthy and effective.

Oakland wins.

And the Astros farm system now has got to be one of the worst in recent memory.

Webb and Haren is probably the best 1-2 punch of anyone, perfect for a 3 game playoff series. What do the D-backs want with Burke? That seems like a weak return for Valverde. Is Orlando Hudson getting dealt? Burke's a 2b/CF and the D-Backs already have that covered...

What does this do for the Santana deal?

In a companion deal, the Diamondbacks are sending closer Jose Valverde to the Astros for reliever Chad Qualls, infielder Chris Burke and Class AAA right-hander Juan Gutierrez.

Wow. I really thought they could have gotten more. I've never loved Valverde but I am surprised that he didn't bring back more in a trade.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071214&content_id=2326595&vkey=hotstove2007&fext;=.jsp

Wow - Gonzales, Anderson, Eveland, Chris Carter, Cunningham, and Greg Smith? That's a lot of talent to give up in one deal.

Exactly. Santana's value is probably at a high right now in terms of this offseason.

PS: Haren has 2 years and 9.5 million on his contract, plus a 6.25 million left as a club option

Oakland wins.

In prospects, maybe. Arizona's the one that's going to win -- a lot -- next season.

Webb and Haren is probably the best 1-2 punch of anyone, perfect for a 3 game playoff series. What do the D-backs want with Burke? That seems like a weak return for Valverde. Is Orlando Hudson getting dealt? Burke's a 2b/CF and the D-Backs already have that covered...

What does this do for the Santana deal?

That does seem really cheap for Valverde - a heck of a lot of quality to give up for Haren. You think they could have gotten a throw in bull-pen arms for the A's.

Which Chris Carter?

Which Chris Carter?

The only one left in the system - the 1b they acquired form the White Sox for Quentin. Really, wouldn't the A's have preferred Quentin?

Which Chris Carter?

The wide receiver.

I can speak about Carter and Cunningham, each of whom was considered the White Sox top position prospect at the time they were traded to the D'backs earlier this year.

Cunningham is a nice prospect with no plus tools, just a lot of average ones... He profiles as a LFer because of a poor arm, but could end up in center ala Rowand and Byrnes, to whom he's often been compared. If he makes it, he'll be a rowand or Byrnes-type with a better batting eye and lesser defense.

Carter has true 30+ HR power, and could project even higher. He's got a steep learning curve ahead of him because of his strikeout rate, and he's only been as high as low-A. He's "improving" as a 1B, but I think he's destined for DH duties if he actually makes the show. Showed a real flair for the dramatic HR in each of the last two seasons with a number of 9th inning game-tying and walk-off HRs.

With 3 years left on his deal, Haren is worth more than Santana (not necessarily to the Red Sox but in general). That said, it seems like everyone thinks Santana should pull more in a deal.

You think they could have gotten a throw in bull-pen arms for the A's.

They did.

The A's have completed a trade to send Dan Haren to the Diamondbacks along with pitcher Connor Robertson, The Chronicle has learned.

The only one left in the system - the 1b they acquired form the White Sox for Quentin. Really, wouldn't the A's have preferred Quentin?

Is the older overrated one gone? Either way, whew. With Barton, Cust, and Johnson around, an OF would make more sense than a 1B. But I like Carter more than Quentin.

Ahh, thought it was the other Carter for some reason. This one looks pretty good. This seems like a quality haul for the A's, despite what Athletics Nation thinks.

It's going to be interesting to see how Haren makes the switch from Oakland to Arizona considering his previous history of being a little bit tatter-prone. In addition, the AL West is probably the easiest division in the American League to pitch in. Oakland, Anaheim (not this year), and Seattle all have pitcher friendly ballparks. Also, there isn't really a great offense in that division. Miguel Batista was able to go from Zona to Seattle without much difficulty. I also don't think Haren is "really" a low 3.00 ERA pitcher in the NL.

That said, Haren is going to benefit from the talent difference going from the AL to the NL and Zona might have the best one-two punch in baseball. It certainly has the best one-two punch in the NL.

The Valverde trade is brutal.

Zona still needs some offense though.

Well, this and the Tejada trade (to an extent) give the NL a filip talent wise.

5, I fully agree with your comment.

The Valverde trade is brutal

What do you mean by that?

Well, this and the Tejada trade (to an extent) give the NL a filip talent wise.

Cabrera?

What do you mean by that?

The Diamondbacks could have done better. One could argue that the difference between Qualls and Valverde isn't that large. But Papa Grande has the reputation as a proven closer and I personally think they could have done better in a world where Coco can get a 46 million dollar deal, you'd have to think that Byrnes could have gotten more than that for him.

The Valverde trade is brutal.

Not if they got back Juan Rodriguez. Valverde has been a blowup candidate for years, and is not exactly cheap. Heck, Qualls might outpitch him this year.

Haren doesn't have to be as good as last year for this trade to benefit the DBacks. I think Beane just settled for a boatload of quantity here. As I said, he could have tried holding out for CY.

It's going to be interesting to see how Haren makes the switch from Oakland to Arizona considering his previous history of being a little bit tatter-prone. In addition, the AL West is probably the easiest division in the American League to pitch in. Oakland, Anaheim (not this year), and Seattle all have pitcher friendly ballparks. Also, there isn't really a great offense in that division. Miguel Batista was able to go from Zona to Seattle without much difficulty. I also don't think Haren is "really" a low 3.00 ERA pitcher in the NL.

Of the 39 AL pitchers to throw 160+ inning last year, Haren faced the 7th highest opponents OPS (.766).

Cunningham looks like he had a very good year. He hit .308/.375/.509 across 3 levels, including a .900 OPS in 30 AA games at the end of the year as a 21 year old.

So Blanton will probably be shipped as well. They're stocking up on corner OF and 1b types. Is Swisher also going to be gone within a year or so? Or are they going to turn around some of the new guys in a later deal?

As an A's fan, I'm sad that Haren is gone, but this trade really seems like it could pay off when the new park is open. The farm system has just been restocked quite nicely, with more likely to come, and they should be drafting quite high the next couple of years.

I'm an AZ fan, and I'll just say that Beane did very well for himself. He got a lot of quantity and quality. The guys at the back end of the package are all valuable: Cunningham (a legit prospect with the White Sox, did even better after coming to AZ), Carter (cost AZ Quentin to get), and Eveland (career 2-something ERA in the minor leagues). I don't think that anyone can argue that this was a bad trade from Oakland's point of view, or that Beane didn't get fair value for Haren. There's going to be at least 1-2 regular major leaguers that come from the package of 6.

On the other hand, it could also be a good trade for AZ. Even though Brynes gave up a haul, he didn't have to give up a single uber-prospect. The best prospect of the bunch is Gonzalez, and there's no guarantee that he'll fix the holes in his game and make an impact in the majors. Brynes was also able to keep more or less his entire 25 player roster intact (and avoid trading starters like Young, Reynolds, CoJack, etc.). This is an ultimate win-now move for the next 3 years, and it will look even better for Arizona if they can extend Haren (and Webb) to long term contracts.

Does anyone know anything about Conor Robertson?

Of the 39 AL pitchers to throw 160+ inning last year, Haren faced the 7th highest opponents OPS (.766).

Interesting. That obviously contradicts my statement. I would have never thought that considering the teams in their division.

Retrench here we come.
And that may well mean the end for Bonds. Signing him made sense if they were gonna make a run, but no sense at all for a rebuilding year.

Cunningham looks like he had a very good year. He hit .308/.375/.509 across 3 levels,

It was only two levels (A+/AA), three teams.

So, given that I'm Billy understands the "x wont be part of the next great A's team" axiom, I assume that Blanton is probably gone this offseason as well? Moreover, if Chavez and Hudson have good first halves can we assume they're gone at the deadline?

I'm an AZ fan, and I'll just say that Beane did very well for himself. He got a lot of quantity and quality. The guys at the back end of the package are all valuable: Cunningham (a legit prospect with the White Sox, did even better after coming to AZ), Carter (cost AZ Quentin to get), and Eveland (career 2-something ERA in the minor leagues). I don't think that anyone can argue that this was a bad trade from Oakland's point of view, or that Beane didn't get fair value for Haren. There's going to be at least 1-2 regular major leaguers that come from the package of 6.

On the other hand, it could also be a good trade for AZ. Even though Brynes gave up a haul, he didn't have to give up a single uber-prospect. The best prospect of the bunch is Gonzalez, and there's no guarantee that he'll fix the holes in his game and make an impact in the majors. Brynes was also able to keep more or less his entire 25 pla

Yeah, I thought it was amazing that he couldn't get a Max Schwertzer, Chris Young (or going for broke) - a Justin Upton.

The Diamondbacks could have done better. One could argue that the difference between Qualls and Valverde isn't that large. But Papa Grande has the reputation as a proven closer and I personally think they could have done better in a world where Coco can get a 46 million dollar deal, you'd have to think that Byrnes could have gotten more than that for him.

I agree to some extent. We all understand Brynes's thinking: closers with a lot of saves are usually overvalued; Valverde is coming off a career year and is inconsistent from year to year; and Valverde is a year from free agency. Put the whole point of trading a closer like Valverde is to get another team to OVERPAY for him. I don't see any overpaying going on here.

To me, Burke is nearly worthless. He's not a prospect and his bat is at less than replacement level. Qualls is decent, but I would still give Valverde a sizable edge. I don't know anything about the prospect Gutierrez . . . what's the deal on him?

Was Gonzalez hurt at the start of the year? He put up a .615 OPS through his first 200 PA, and then was around .900 for the rest of the year. Just getting used to AA?

Dana battled his weight in the minors and didn't appreciate efforts to get him to slim down which is what precipitated his inclusion in the trade to Arizona. Not certain if he made any progress while in the D'backs hands.......

Qualls has outpitched Valverde the last two years (Which isn't saying much in 2006, but Qualls had higher ARP than Valverde has ever reached in both '06 and '07). His big workloads have more than made up for Valverde being a better per-inning pitcher in his good years, though they also give him a little more risk.

For most teams, I'd say leveraging the "proven closer" tag for a slight improvement in relief pitching and a guy who still looks like he could be a league-average 2B is a very nice haul. I'm just not sure what use the D-backs have for Burke, so I agree that they probably could have gotten a deal that makes more sense elsewhere.

Valverde is two years away from being a free agent.

Dana battled his weight in the minors and didn't appreciate efforts to get him to slim down which is what precipitated his inclusion in the trade to Arizona.

Given he was listed the same weight as Fielder as a Brewer (Eveland is an inch taller, though), that's an understatement :P

Plus in the majors, the HoHo Kid's tendency to start nibbling around the plate was rather annoying.

Valverde is two years away from being a free agent.

My mistake. Then to me, it makes the deal even worse from AZ's perspective. Giving up the farm for Haren makes sense because it's the ultimate win now move (e.g., it gives them a 1-2 punch of Webb and Haren in the prime of their careers). But having Valverde as the closer makes AZ better over the next two seasons than having Qualls in the BP.

Look at how much the Padres got from the Brewers for Linebrink. Valverde is better than Linebrink, in my view, so I'm disappointed we couldn't get more.

Wow. I love this. A's probably got good value but its nice to see their ace out of the division, and going to the NL it pretty much seals the deal as a keeper for fantasy baseball - I've got Haren at about as good a bargain as Josh Byrnes is getting.

Gonzales seems like a strange fit to the A's. His stats look like a young Garret Anderson to me, a good player but not quite what the A's normally go for. I'm a fan of Brett Anderson but at his age and level he's still pretty much a lottery ticket.

The Linebrink isn't a baseline. Melvin panicked, overpaid, and everyone knows it. Doug knows it too but tries to explain it away pointing to the context. (Team in race, bullpen imploding, his manager is a moron...that type of stuff)

Anyway, don't expect that fooloshness to happen often. Not to many GMs get that stupid these days.

Really, all 6 players to the A's look pretty good, but not sure if any will be a 2007 contributer. Of course some of em won't pan out - they'll probably wind up with 2-3 good players somewhere down the road but I'm not even going to attempt to guess which ones will make it.

Melvin panicked, overpaid, and everyone knows it.

I'm still OK on giving up Inman, but Thatcher is still the one that galls me, after I was banging the drum for a Thatcher callup most of the first half of 2007.

Connor Robertson: sinker/slider guy with a deceptive motion that produced loads of Ks in the miors, but has only average stuff. A little short on velocity (upper 80s FB), particularly for a guy without pinpoint command. He was outrighted earlier this offseason. From Birmingham-Southern, a not long ago up-and-coming program that went bust (dropped athletics) - where he set loads of school records and made some A-A lists as a two way guy (was also a prospect as a hitter, added pitching late in his college career). Brother of David Robertson (Yankee prospect).

RE: Haren - Looking over the final list of players sent to Oakland, I don't see too many that were likely to be contributing in Phoenix in the next couple of years. It's a risky deal, but it makes sense.

RE: Valverde - I think a not-insignificant part of this deal is money. How many contending teams needed a closer and would overpay for Valverde and not cost Arizona much?

Also, the D-backs have positioned themselves to have quite a fire sale in a couple of years should they choose to do so . . .

####. This is going to start an arms build up in the west now (ie Bedard)

I know this is a soft, mainstream argument, but if anyone ever needed a change of scenery, near the top of the list would be Burke. He's the 2B in waiting to the incumbent hell-bent on not retiring. He's the starting CF. No, no, he's rotting on the bench. I wouldn't be surprised to see him either get the time necessary to reinstall his value or even the precipitator of a Hudson trade, who really would fetch something nice.

In a lot of years, I'd pan getting Burke more than this, but we do have to remember that with the added revenue to each club, we're finally seeing a return to what was normal pre-1990ish, a lot more player retention and a lot more trading. How long was this Carter the property of Arizona?

levski, it looks like your GM is a keeper.

This seems like a win-win deal b/w two GMs that speak the same language, could really help each other and did. Oakland can use several cheap regulars as it rebuilds, and Anderson could be 90% as good as Haren one day. Bold move by Byrnes, and I like his side of the Houston trade as well. The extra depth and the $ savings are worth more than the difference b/w Valverde and Qualls.

Connor Robertson: sinker/slider guy with a deceptive motion that produced loads of Ks in the miors, but has only average stuff. A little short on velocity (upper 80s FB), particularly for a guy without pinpoint command. He was outrighted earlier this offseason. From Birmingham-Southern, a not long ago up-and-coming program that went bust (dropped athletics) - where he set loads of school records and made some A-A lists as a two way guy (was also a prospect as a hitter, added pitching late in his college career). Brother of David Robertson (Yankee prospect).

Lots of K's, not that many walks, little homers. Good recipe for success. Must be beyond deceptive for a sinker/slider without pinpoint to make that happen.

I credit ChadBradfordWannaBe for these moves. Byrnes is just a figurehead.

I need to learn more about the guys the A's are getting, but my first reaction is disappointment. Big disappointment.

According to Rotoworld, Alberto Callaspo will be going to KC for reliever Bill Buckner, with Burke taking his spot as utility guy.

Now watch Beane work his magic and trade all these pups for someone good like Mark Mulder.

Does this give Arizona the best 1-2 punch in baseball now? Let's look at ERA+: In 2007 Webb was 156 and Haren was 137. I wonder if any team has two pitchers with a higher ERA+ in 2007. Probably not.

I wonder if any team has two pitchers with a higher ERA+ in 2006.

Liriano - 207 (121 ip) and Santana - 161.

Liriano - 207 (121 ip) and Santana - 161.

Sorry I meant 2007. This past season.

Carmona (151) and Sabathia (143)?

Indians had Sabathia at 143 & Carmona at 151 in 2007.

I'll settle for a very plausible 440 IP at a 135 ERA+ clip between the pair.

I still really like Eveland as a major league pitcher. He put up good minor league numbers before falling out of favor for weight reasons (which I don't think is that big of a concern for pitchers), and minor injury concerns. It would not surprise me if he puts up Gaudin type numbers within the next two years, which makes him a great guy for a rebuilding team to take a chance on.

The 1B/DH situation is going to become really interesting within the next few years for the A's (with Johnson/Cust/Barton/Carter already in the organization), especially because the A's have such a propensity to sign cheap DHs instead of developing them.

Dodgers had Penny (151) and Billingsley (138).

Padres had Peavy (159) and Young (129)

Haren and Webb have thrown 1363 innings between them over the past 3 years. That's more than any other 2 pitchers in baseball, teammates or not.

Wow, 1363 IP. Every other tandem mentioned subjectively seems more injury-prone, including a Beckett/Santana possibility.
I'm still waiting for someone to chime in with Joba (1192) and Wang (120).

I think Beane did the right thing in spreading his risk among players likely to yield a few regulars rather than going after the possible superstar. If the possible superstar busts, then the A's have nothing to show for Haren. If nothing else, the A's should have a 1-2 regulars from this haul.

Lots of K's, not that many walks, little homers. Good recipe for success. Must be beyond deceptive for a sinker/slider without pinpoint to make that happen.

He was available for free about a month ago (for the price of a 40-man roster spot), and nobody claimed him, so he wasn't valued TOO highly (or at least was viewed as being worth less than a spot on the 40).

levski, it looks like your GM is a keeper.

I thought the opposite. The package for Valverde seems like little or nothing to me. And I guess I am less of a Haren fan than most on this site. To me the D'back are worse off now than when we woke up this morning. And both the A's and Astros are better off. I guess only time will tell.

wouldn't the A's have preferred Quentin?

What's his option situation? The A's don't need more corner OF types on the ML roster at the moment. Of course, they could have cleared that problem up if they wanted Quentin.

Which Chris Carter?

I'm foreseeing an HOF ceremony and we still won't be sure the right one showed up.

My thoughts, for 2c...

First, Callaspo trade. To paraphrase Thomas Hobbes (apologies if I've used this here already), Callaspo's collapso was nasty, brutish and short. You can get away with sucking in your callup if you're a nice guy, or with beating up your wife if you're very good, but you cannot suck and beat up your wife and remain in the organization, especially the Dbacks organization.

It's a shame, as I think Callaspo has plenty of talent. But he went from golden child to wife beater to persona non grata in a rather short time in AZ. This means it's now up to Bonifacio to make an argument for being the 2bman of the future. Buckner I know very little of. Sounds like if all things break right, he might be a Jake Westbrooktrout type of a pitcher. Here's hoping they do.

Second, Valverde trade. When Valverde is on, he's plain nasty. Despite his meltdown against COL in the NLCS (Free Willy!), Valverde had an excellent season--and was arguably AZ's third most valuable reliever, after Pena and Lyon. This trade really has to do with money and personalities. In short, I think the Dbacks didn't want to go into arbitration hearing with Valverde, and there's a very good chance they would've had to do so this year. Valverde and his agent have been a real pain in the neck for JByrnes and PWoodfork for a couple of years now, and even though his agent downplayed the report in the Dominican paper, Valverde wants a lot of money, and the Dbacks weren't going to give it to him.

So when the opportunity came to just send him out for a pitcher who'll give the team comparable production for less, another live arm, and a former #1 prospect who a) gives them flexibility with Callaspo gone; and b) gives them the chance to try to resurrect his career, the Dbacks rolled the dice with their fingers crossed. I suspect Qualls and Valverde will have similar VORP over the next 2 years, and this move allows AZ to move Pena to the closer's job and insert Qualls in the 7th inning (Pena's old job).

Third, Haren trade. On why AZ can part with these prospects... AZ's OF is locked for the next 3 years, and CF and RF are locked for at least the next 5 years. In reality, the Dbacks need only ONE outfielder with significant upside to be ready for a full time gig in the majors sometime in late 2010, and they chose to keep Gerrardo Parra. And imho, they chose the right guy. Parra may very well become a better overall player than Carlos Gonzalez; the Dbacks feel about him right now they way they felt about CarGo last year--except they like Parra even more. And with Parra, they have time on their side, as he'll be in high A this year, and he should progress to the majors just in time to push Eric Byrnes aside should he fall on his face in 2009 or 2010.

Along these lines, Aaron Cunningham was absolutely redundant in AZ. He was blocked similarly to CarGo, and the Dbacks have a couple of cheap solid options in Jeff Salazar and Alex Romero as the #4-#5 OF guys, and Burke can play the OF as well. There really was no point in trying to turn Aaron Cunningham into a make-or-break type of a player. Finally, 1B is blocked by Jackson/Tracy for another 3 years, and if Carter's D was really a major red flad, the Dbacks just chose not to worry about this situation. Plus it may very well be that Beane asked the Dbacks to acquire Carter in the first place, and JByrnes didn't care for him anyhow.

Brett Anderson, along with CarGo, is probably the one other guy in the trade who could make AZ really regret this trade. I have been a huge fan of his for a while, and he's got the chance to be very good for OAK for a long time. Ditto for Evelend, btw, but his last two years have been a lost cause, due to yips in the majors and a thumb injury in 2007. He's pitching very well in Mexico right now, whatever that's worth. Smith is a guy who can be a back of the rotation starter, but his chances of becoming that were not very good. The Dbacks have 3 guys locked through at least 2010 in Webb, Haren, Owings; a guy signed though 2009 in Davis; and RJ, who will pitch as long as he wants to pitch. And then they have Edgar Gonzalez and Yusmeiro Petit, with Max Scherzer on the way.

In short, the Dbacks were in the unique position of basically having a set starting lineup for at least the next 3 years, and an almost set rotation for the next 2-3 years, and their major need--another potential ace--could be acquired by taking the prospects who would've been blocked over the next 3 years anyhow, and ship them out for that one ace. Did they overpay in terms of absolute talent? Probably. But in AZ's case, that didn't really matter.

What mattered was that they kept their starting lineup and key relievers; they kept key prospects in Scherzer, Parker, Parra and less so Bonifacio, and they managed to acquire Haren without compromising their ability to be competitive over the next 3 years. Equally important, they acquired significant financial flexibility given how cheap Haren's contract is. To a team like AZ, that's worth the cost of sending an extra prospect or two (like Smith or Cunningham) to the A's. AZ managed to acquire a cheap young ace in Haren without giving up CYoung or JUpton or SDrew, MReynolds, or even guys like MMontero, TPena, CJackson. That's both a testament to the strength and depth of AZ's system and also to JByrnes's realization that Haren is worth more to AZ than the parts it took to acquire him.

There's very little to complain about this trade from my perspective. I think the A's are banking on guys like CarGo, Anderson, Carter becoming above average players and potential stars, and on getting solid contributions from cheap players like Eveland, Smith, Cunningham. If all things break right, AZ will go deep in the playoffs over the next 3 years, while the A's will dominate the AL West from 2009 through 2015. Ballsy moves by both BBeane and JByrnes.

i like both deals for the snakes. who better than ed wade to deal an over-rated closer to? The other rube GMs around the league don't want or can't afford to acquire a closer. and as someone pointed out, the prospects dealt are pretty good but not the creme de la creme as far as the diamondbacks are concerned (I should mention that i am not very high on carlos gonzalez) and aren't likely to help the team in the next three or four years anyway.

if the red sox had traded lowrie, masterson, adam mills, bowden, and lars anderson for haren, i think sox fans would be delighted (i know i would be furious). is this package really that much better? i'd rather have clay buchholz than a whole pile of C+/B- pitching prospects.

I thought the opposite. The package for Valverde seems like little or nothing to me. And I guess I am less of a Haren fan than most on this site.

You just hate America.

Maybe this trade will lower the O's asking price for Bedard.

To paraphrase Thomas Hobbes (apologies if I've used this here already), Callaspo's collapso was nasty, brutish and short.

Not to be pedantic but I believe it should be "nasty, mean, brutish and short." I'll go check. ...

So it turns out that my copy of Leviathan with marginalia has broken in half right at this spot (what a coincidence) and I'm missing Chapter XIII. Luckily I have more than one copy. Checking again ...

So I was wrong. My memory was incorrect. Unfortunately my other editions have committed the sin of modernizing the language. Bastards. Nonetheless I will reproduce the reproduction of the original. It's a long sentence, but a good one.

In such a condition [warre] there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain, and consequently, no culture of the earth, no navigation, nor use of the commoditities that may be imported by sea, no commodious building, no insturments of moving and removing such things as require much force, no knowledge of the face of the earth, no account of time, no arts, no letters, no society, and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.

...especially because the A's have such a propensity to sign cheap DHs instead of developing them.

Mike Piazza says, "oops."

Unless Carlos Gonzalez pans out, I think the A's got taken here. Cunningham and Carter are OK prospects, but nothing to build your system around. They're each like the Jose Lopez (Mariners 2Bman) of prospects--solid, uninspiring, young options with a chance to step forward.

Gonzalez is obviously something, and Brett Anderson is fine, but Eveland and Smith really don't strike me as much. So the deal ends up being Gonzalez and Anderson (high upside prospects), Cunningham and Carter (OK prospects with warts), and two non prospects.

The A's got taken.

The A's got taken because one guy is fine, and two don't "strike you as much"?

What is this, stats vs. scouts? You're scouts, right? Only, um, without the scouting? ;-)

btw, thanks for posting 84, Gaelan.

My Rankings of the A's Haul: in order of best to worst

Carlos Gonzalez- B+: sexy tools, needs to keep progressing in strike zone discipline
Brett Anderson- B: The opposite of C-Gon. Not sexy at all but gets results with great feel for pitching.
Chris Carter- B: High offensive ceiling but so far away to rank any higher. Also, probably strictly 1b/dh
Aaron Cunningham- B-: I actually like him alot but his tools are nothing special. Depending on his defense, he could be a regular in CF. I've heard comparisons to Aaron Rowand.
Dana Eveland- C+: Eh, whatever. he's left handed and major league ready.
Greg Smith- C: LOOGY, not really a fan.

No, two guys are good prospects, two guys are OK prospects, and Eveland and Smith. I've checked their numbers, here's the links. I've got the stats, what matters is that this is an unacceptable haul for three years of Dan Haren.

Anderson
Gonzalez
Cunningham
Carter
Eveland
Smith

I'll give credit to Beane for thinking originally and accepting quantity over quality in this trade. However, I don't think you do that for a player of Haren's caliber. For Joe Blanton, sure, you say "We'll take Carter, Cunningham and Anderson to replenish our system."

But of the package that Beane got, Anderson is probably two years away, at the earliest, from contributing to the Athletics (if he ever does--two years is a long time for a pitching prospect) and Carlos Gonzalez is the only good bet of the remaining players to be an above average MLB player. Cunningham does everything decently, but really doesn't do anything spectacularly, and that includes playing defense. Carter has power, along with holes in his swing and defense.

Eveland and Smith don't seem to be anything special to me. Just generic pitchers. Every organization has Smiths and Evelands floating around. I don't see why Oakland would target them in this trade. A mountain of Dana Evelands and Greg Smiths does not outweigh one Dan Haren.

I'd rather have Haren, rebuilding or no.

EDITED TO ADD: I don't know where the Cunningham and Rowand comparisons began regarding this trade. Perhaps they'll be similar offensively, although Cunningham doesn't have Rowand's power, or anything like it. Defensively, though, Aaron Rowand runs over Cunningham like he's a flimsy outfield wall. Bad metaphor. Put bluntly, throughout his career with the D-Backs and White Sox, Cunningham has been labeled a mediocre left fielder, and not at all a sterling defender in center, like Arizona's Chris Young.

So, in that sense, the best Cunningham comp might be Aaron Rowand with Eric Byrnes defense in LF.

I didn't see this mentioned before (from the SF Chronicle article):

Beane said that continued health concerns were one reason that he decided to move the team's top starter. Starter Chad Gaudin has a torn hip labrum that might require surgery; oft-injured right-hander Rich Harden recently had a cortisone shot for a lingering case of biceps tendinitis; and third baseman Eric Chavez has had three surgeries since the end of the season. (Harden said Friday his problem is not serious, and he believes he can pitch with it. He's scheduled to being throwing on Monday.)

After using the disabled list 22 times last year, killing their chances of repeating in the AL West, the A's didn't want to roll the dice again.

"We struggled with this even last year," Beane said. "We had confidence in those players, we just couldn't keep that group on the field. It wasn't easy making a decision like this, because you do hope for things to work out, but once it got to this point ... this is clearly where we were going. And we're going to go full bore."

A's fans, would you have preferred Milledge, Gomez, plus one of Pelfrey, Mulvey, or Humber for Haren?

Sigh. Rooting for this team is such a drag. You really can't get attached to anyone, ever. We root for a bunch of cycling mercenaries, only instead of old, fading superstar mercenaries they're young, not yet expensive but talented mercenaries.

I need to learn more about the guys the A's are getting, but my first reaction is disappointment. Big disappointment.

Ditto that. I was at Logan airport waiting to come home for the holidays and my roommate called me and broke the news. Got all done with finals today and everything and then this comes along and ruins it all.

I mean, I guess, sure, why not, the talent return is acceptable. But what of it? We just went through this ######## with Hudson and Mulder, what was it, two seasons ago? Three? At what point do you establish a core and run with it?

And I mean, you have Buck and Swisher, so what the hell purpose does Carlos Gonzalez serve? Do we trade Swisher now? And then in three years when Brett Anderson and Carlos Gonzalez turn out to be awesome we trade them too? When the hell does it stop?

I'm not even saying it's a bad trade, I just don't see why it didn't make sense to keep him. If your goal is to be competitive again in three or four years or for the opening of CiscoLewWolffMagicLand, Dan Haren's as good a bet as anyone else to help you do that.

#93, remember the advantages of this approach: you're emulating the 90s Braves who wouldn't pay a lick for past performance far more than you're emulating the Marlins, and even they seem to know what they're doing.

#92, great question.

Dan in the Oracle made the great point that Levski's expounded on here: this is condensing talent to avoid wasting it completely. Finally. I've been upset at the Twins's wasting of their previous prospect bounty and I'm thrilled to see a team act like this.

And I guess I am less of a Haren fan than most on this site.

As I posted in the other thread, I'm not much of one, either. I think Haren took a lot of advantage from the ballpark; he's a bit of a flyball pitcher and has been HR prone, and he doesn't get as many swings and misses as one might expect of an elite pitcher. That's a dangerous combo to take to Arizona.

-- MWE

Sigh. Another favored player gone. I liked Haren a lot and know nothing about any of the prospects we're getting. Still, Beane's earned the benefit of the doubt and the response here seems to be positive, so I guess I'm happy. Still, rooting for the A's can be a drag ... the excitement of these trades doesn't overcome the disappointment of seeing your favorite players go. Fans of rich teams, who salivate over Santana, Cabrera, Haren, et. al, this is the flip side of your "I hope we can get so-and-so" ... a big bummer for those of us whose sin is rooting for a team without deep pockets.

#93, remember the advantages of this approach: you're emulating the 90s Braves who wouldn't pay a lick for past performance far more than you're emulating the Marlins, and even they seem to know what they're doing.

\

Except Chipper. Smoltz. Andruw the first time around.

Sucks to be a hitter in the NL West ..

Brandon Webb
Dan Haren
Jake Peavy
Chris Young
Greg Maddux
Derrek Lowe
Chad Billingsley
Brad Penny
Barry Zito
Tim Lincecum
Matt Cain

I need to learn more about the guys the A's are getting, but my first reaction is disappointment. Big disappointment.

I'm not too surprised, considering the way you were spouting off a couple of months ago about how the A's were going to be right back to their old division-winning ways next season.

Sucks to be a hitter in the NL West ..

Of course, the only hitters who regularly face all of those guys get the consoldation of playing half their games a mile above sea level.