Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Saturday, March 31, 2001

Astros defend Everett: Bagwell: Love to have ex-mate backby Jeff Horrigan

This just furthers cements in my mind the Williams has to be let go. I obviously don’t know Everett but his former Astro teammates do. Notice the different managing styles and their results.

The Original Gary Posted: March 31, 2001 at 02:31 PM | 8 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. John Posted: March 31, 2001 at 09:29 PM (#66469)
I remember Bill James writing something about the Boston clubhouse back in the 80's. I'm paraphrasing, but he mentioned how the team had to be a lot of turnover cause the clubhouse was always in strife...I wonder if that is the case because the city is so divided along racial lines. I don't read too many Boston newspapers, but has anyone questioned Williams moves? Has anyone in the media recognized how "problems" occur along racial lines?

It does strike me as strange that one of the most liberal cities in the US has this kind of history. They are well stocked with educational institution and seem to be open to change yet their ball club remains one of the most racist in ML history.
   2. Bruce Markusen Posted: March 31, 2001 at 11:24 PM (#66471)
I'm sorry, but there's some revisionist history going on here, at least as far as the Mets were concerned. Gregg Jefferies and Kevin McReynolds took their share of hits from both Met fans and media--as did white managers Davey Johnson and Jeff Torborg. Jefferies was exteremly unpopular with several of the Met veterans (most notably Randy Myers, who despised Jefferies)--a fact that was often reported by the New York media. McReynolds also drew some criticism from reporters for being lazy and unemotional in his approach to the game. David Cone was knocked for his immature behavior, including his decision to lead a a short-lived boycott against the New York media. Bret Saberhagen took criticism for that nasty bleachthrowing incident that involved a reporter. Except for Jefferies (who I think was treated unfairly in New York), each of these white players received legitimate and fair criticism.

As with most managers in New York, Johnson and Torborg were scured by the media when things went bad in New York, especially in the early nineties. Bobby Valentine, according to some New York writers, should have been fired during the team's late-season collapse in 1999. All of these managers are white, but that didn't prevent them from taking their fair share (or more) of the heat.

As for Carl Everett, he has had trouble in every organization that he's played for: the Yankees, the Mets, the Astros, and the Red Sox. Is it always the fault of the team--and not the player? I could understand if a player had problems in just one or two organizations, but when he's has trouble on EVERY major league stop along the way, he loses the benefit of the doubt, at least in my mind.

Finally, with regard to Rickey Henderson, a point needs to be made. He just flat-out stopped trying during the 1989 season. He's been a great player, a no-question-about-it Hall of Famer, but his constant failure to hustle or run hard in left field and on the basepaths in '89 gave the Yankees no choice but to trade him away.
   3. The Original Gary Posted: April 01, 2001 at 12:21 AM (#66472)
I don't feel that Williams' treatment of Everett is racially motivated. If you are reacist, you are racist against everyone of that particular persuasion, not specific individuals. Everett's antics last season have permanently destroyed his relationship with Jimy. Jimy was well within his rights for the Alcantara incident. I saw the game that precipitated that event. The only thing Izzy was missing in the outfield(other than flyballs) was a lounge chair. He should have been shipped back to the minors but Duquette wouldn't allow it.

Trot Nixon is a "gritty" ballplayer. Not because he is white. Because he literally would run through a wall to catch a flyball. So would Darren Lewis. You accuse the Boston media of being racist for running Everett out of town yet this same media prefers Darren Lewis in center field. This media had a daily column called "The World According to Roger" when Clemens was still here. Clemens is white. I am not naive. I am aware there is racism out there. However, certain people are punks. Am I a racist because I think Julian Tavarez is an idiot and not Russ Davis? I could care less what race Tavarez is. He throws his glove down like a big tough guy and Davis calls his bluff and he answers with a spiked shoe dropkick.

Not every issue with minority players is about race. Actually to think that is being racist against whites. I am glad Jimy is a white manager so I am not accused of being racist in this situation.
   4. John Posted: April 01, 2001 at 01:28 AM (#66473)
It is racist if every issue is with those from a culture other than your own. Jimy Williams has a terrible record with players from other cultures.

Pointing out Everett's problems doesn't absolve William's own issues. There doesn't have to be correlation between the two. This is another version of the "if then" argument.
   5. The Original Gary Posted: April 01, 2001 at 12:34 PM (#66475)
I don't disagree that there is racist in America today. However, I think it is too easy to play the race card when a minority is being held accountable. Anthony noted several examples of the Boston media being racist. I can't see favoring Darren Lewis, a minority and well respected man, over Carl Everett, a superior ballplayer to Lewis, falls under the category of racism. I don't go for the suppressing the minority athlete theory. In sports today, the white race IS the minority. Two of the most revered athletes today are Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods. Arod makes more money than God. On the flip side, there are clowns like Rae Carruth and Ray Lewis who are out and out hoods. It doesn't matter what race they are.

Sorry, but Williams "terrible" track record includes 3 or 4 run ins with noted hotheads. He is wrong in this years incident because he holds a grudge. Williams also had problems with Jeff Fassero, white guy. How come the other minority players don't feel WIlliams is racist? Williams has to work with a large percentage of minorities, he can't afford to be racist.
   6. John Posted: April 01, 2001 at 04:13 PM (#66476)
How many "minorities" are in upper level management...even coaches or managers? Isn't there some disparity?
   7. The Original Gary Posted: April 02, 2001 at 12:58 AM (#66477)
i should have limited that statement to players. You are correct. The perecentage of minorities in management is woefully low.
   8. Robert Dudek Posted: April 02, 2001 at 11:47 AM (#66478)
Talking about these "race" issues only serves to slow the natural death of racism which is its destiny.

The problem is not about race (in the biological sense of the term) - it's about cultural identity.

Lumping Latins into the same "race" (in the biological sense) is absurd. Are Edgar Martinez and Tony Fernandez from the same race ? Jose Canseco, Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa ? What Latin Americans have most in common is their language and to a certain extent a shared history and shared values.

The same is true of African-Americans. It's not a question of genetics (I read that at least one-third of the people who call themselves African-Americans have at least some non-African ancestry).

I don't think there is much doubt that the divide between Americans of African ancestry and cultural traditions and Americans of European ancestry and cultural traditions is narrower than ever before. More "inter-racial" (inter-cultural - I would call it) marriage means a blending together of diverse groups. This is inevitable when people share the same physical space and do not purposely isolate themselves from other groups - and I welcome it.

I am not saying that groups who view themselves as a minority or as oppressed have no right to seek redress. But everyone should stop using the word "race" which is soaked with the blood of many unfortunate victims over many centuries, and concentrate on the cultural issues.

I am of Polish descent, so if you were classifying me in any way other than by my physical features, you'd have to call me a minority as well. Minority and majority are determined by perception. I suppose you could define the majority as the people with wealth and influence - only then you'd have to include many of those "minority" athletes who have accumulated their fair share of it.

Yes, perception has caused and continues to cause many problems - all the more reason to try to change it.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Martin Hemner
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOT: Soccer August 2015
(647 - 5:17pm, Sep 04)
Last: Baldrick

NewsblogMetsblog: Dominic Smith Named FSL Player of the Year
(11 - 5:17pm, Sep 04)
Last: Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee

NewsblogOTP - September 2015: Making Sense Of The Republican Presidential Race: It's Like Major League Baseball In August
(637 - 5:13pm, Sep 04)
Last: Morty Causa

NewsblogDeadspin: Boras wants Harvey shut down after 180 IP
(21 - 5:10pm, Sep 04)
Last: Adam Starblind

NewsblogOMNICHATTER 9-4-2015
(14 - 5:05pm, Sep 04)
Last: salvomania

NewsblogBryce Harper's bizarre night: four runs, zero swings and a little bit of history
(9 - 5:05pm, Sep 04)
Last: Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams)

NewsblogJazayerli: A Dayton With Destiny
(8 - 4:59pm, Sep 04)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogBreaking tradition: Brewers reschedule fan appreciation night; Chicago Cubs may be to blame
(2 - 4:52pm, Sep 04)
Last: Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams)

NewsblogLincecum’s hip problem ends his Giants season, career up in the air - San Francisco Chronicle
(13 - 4:25pm, Sep 04)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogAs Kiermaier emerges, should Rays seek long-term deal? | Tampa Bay Times
(16 - 4:09pm, Sep 04)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - August 2015
(185 - 3:36pm, Sep 04)
Last: Der-K is really digging the new Tame Impala album.

NewsblogManaging challenge that could ruin Yankees, Mets playoff hopes | New York Post
(34 - 3:36pm, Sep 04)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogBat Flipping Draws Shrugs in South Korea But Scorn in America
(78 - 2:36pm, Sep 04)
Last: Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66)

NewsblogOT: Wrestling Thread November 2014
(1108 - 2:28pm, Sep 04)
Last: aberg

NewsblogBaseball's Next Generation of Managers
(6 - 1:38pm, Sep 04)
Last: boteman asks Where's My Ring?

Page rendered in 0.2091 seconds
43 querie(s) executed