Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Saturday, March 31, 2001

Astros defend Everett: Bagwell: Love to have ex-mate backby Jeff Horrigan

This just furthers cements in my mind the Williams has to be let go. I obviously don’t know Everett but his former Astro teammates do. Notice the different managing styles and their results.

The Original Gary Posted: March 31, 2001 at 02:31 PM | 8 comment(s) Login to Bookmark

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. John Posted: March 31, 2001 at 09:29 PM (#66469)
I remember Bill James writing something about the Boston clubhouse back in the 80's. I'm paraphrasing, but he mentioned how the team had to be a lot of turnover cause the clubhouse was always in strife...I wonder if that is the case because the city is so divided along racial lines. I don't read too many Boston newspapers, but has anyone questioned Williams moves? Has anyone in the media recognized how "problems" occur along racial lines?

It does strike me as strange that one of the most liberal cities in the US has this kind of history. They are well stocked with educational institution and seem to be open to change yet their ball club remains one of the most racist in ML history.
   2. Bruce Markusen Posted: March 31, 2001 at 11:24 PM (#66471)
I'm sorry, but there's some revisionist history going on here, at least as far as the Mets were concerned. Gregg Jefferies and Kevin McReynolds took their share of hits from both Met fans and media--as did white managers Davey Johnson and Jeff Torborg. Jefferies was exteremly unpopular with several of the Met veterans (most notably Randy Myers, who despised Jefferies)--a fact that was often reported by the New York media. McReynolds also drew some criticism from reporters for being lazy and unemotional in his approach to the game. David Cone was knocked for his immature behavior, including his decision to lead a a short-lived boycott against the New York media. Bret Saberhagen took criticism for that nasty bleachthrowing incident that involved a reporter. Except for Jefferies (who I think was treated unfairly in New York), each of these white players received legitimate and fair criticism.

As with most managers in New York, Johnson and Torborg were scured by the media when things went bad in New York, especially in the early nineties. Bobby Valentine, according to some New York writers, should have been fired during the team's late-season collapse in 1999. All of these managers are white, but that didn't prevent them from taking their fair share (or more) of the heat.

As for Carl Everett, he has had trouble in every organization that he's played for: the Yankees, the Mets, the Astros, and the Red Sox. Is it always the fault of the team--and not the player? I could understand if a player had problems in just one or two organizations, but when he's has trouble on EVERY major league stop along the way, he loses the benefit of the doubt, at least in my mind.

Finally, with regard to Rickey Henderson, a point needs to be made. He just flat-out stopped trying during the 1989 season. He's been a great player, a no-question-about-it Hall of Famer, but his constant failure to hustle or run hard in left field and on the basepaths in '89 gave the Yankees no choice but to trade him away.
   3. The Original Gary Posted: April 01, 2001 at 12:21 AM (#66472)
I don't feel that Williams' treatment of Everett is racially motivated. If you are reacist, you are racist against everyone of that particular persuasion, not specific individuals. Everett's antics last season have permanently destroyed his relationship with Jimy. Jimy was well within his rights for the Alcantara incident. I saw the game that precipitated that event. The only thing Izzy was missing in the outfield(other than flyballs) was a lounge chair. He should have been shipped back to the minors but Duquette wouldn't allow it.

Trot Nixon is a "gritty" ballplayer. Not because he is white. Because he literally would run through a wall to catch a flyball. So would Darren Lewis. You accuse the Boston media of being racist for running Everett out of town yet this same media prefers Darren Lewis in center field. This media had a daily column called "The World According to Roger" when Clemens was still here. Clemens is white. I am not naive. I am aware there is racism out there. However, certain people are punks. Am I a racist because I think Julian Tavarez is an idiot and not Russ Davis? I could care less what race Tavarez is. He throws his glove down like a big tough guy and Davis calls his bluff and he answers with a spiked shoe dropkick.

Not every issue with minority players is about race. Actually to think that is being racist against whites. I am glad Jimy is a white manager so I am not accused of being racist in this situation.
   4. John Posted: April 01, 2001 at 01:28 AM (#66473)
It is racist if every issue is with those from a culture other than your own. Jimy Williams has a terrible record with players from other cultures.

Pointing out Everett's problems doesn't absolve William's own issues. There doesn't have to be correlation between the two. This is another version of the "if then" argument.
   5. The Original Gary Posted: April 01, 2001 at 12:34 PM (#66475)
I don't disagree that there is racist in America today. However, I think it is too easy to play the race card when a minority is being held accountable. Anthony noted several examples of the Boston media being racist. I can't see favoring Darren Lewis, a minority and well respected man, over Carl Everett, a superior ballplayer to Lewis, falls under the category of racism. I don't go for the suppressing the minority athlete theory. In sports today, the white race IS the minority. Two of the most revered athletes today are Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods. Arod makes more money than God. On the flip side, there are clowns like Rae Carruth and Ray Lewis who are out and out hoods. It doesn't matter what race they are.

Sorry, but Williams "terrible" track record includes 3 or 4 run ins with noted hotheads. He is wrong in this years incident because he holds a grudge. Williams also had problems with Jeff Fassero, white guy. How come the other minority players don't feel WIlliams is racist? Williams has to work with a large percentage of minorities, he can't afford to be racist.
   6. John Posted: April 01, 2001 at 04:13 PM (#66476)
How many "minorities" are in upper level management...even coaches or managers? Isn't there some disparity?
   7. The Original Gary Posted: April 02, 2001 at 12:58 AM (#66477)
i should have limited that statement to players. You are correct. The perecentage of minorities in management is woefully low.
   8. Robert Dudek Posted: April 02, 2001 at 11:47 AM (#66478)
Talking about these "race" issues only serves to slow the natural death of racism which is its destiny.

The problem is not about race (in the biological sense of the term) - it's about cultural identity.

Lumping Latins into the same "race" (in the biological sense) is absurd. Are Edgar Martinez and Tony Fernandez from the same race ? Jose Canseco, Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa ? What Latin Americans have most in common is their language and to a certain extent a shared history and shared values.

The same is true of African-Americans. It's not a question of genetics (I read that at least one-third of the people who call themselves African-Americans have at least some non-African ancestry).

I don't think there is much doubt that the divide between Americans of African ancestry and cultural traditions and Americans of European ancestry and cultural traditions is narrower than ever before. More "inter-racial" (inter-cultural - I would call it) marriage means a blending together of diverse groups. This is inevitable when people share the same physical space and do not purposely isolate themselves from other groups - and I welcome it.

I am not saying that groups who view themselves as a minority or as oppressed have no right to seek redress. But everyone should stop using the word "race" which is soaked with the blood of many unfortunate victims over many centuries, and concentrate on the cultural issues.

I am of Polish descent, so if you were classifying me in any way other than by my physical features, you'd have to call me a minority as well. Minority and majority are determined by perception. I suppose you could define the majority as the people with wealth and influence - only then you'd have to include many of those "minority" athletes who have accumulated their fair share of it.

Yes, perception has caused and continues to cause many problems - all the more reason to try to change it.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.



<< Back to main


All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF


Thanks to
for his generous support.


You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOTP 11 December, 2017 - GOP strategist: Moore would have 'date with a baseball bat' if he tried dating teens where I grew up
(1461 - 1:23am, Dec 14)
Last: Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump

NewsblogOT: Winter Soccer Thread
(353 - 12:51am, Dec 14)
Last: Richard

NewsblogMets agree to two-year deal with Anthony Swarzak
(6 - 12:46am, Dec 14)
Last: Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play

NewsblogCardinals trade for Marcell Ozuna of Marlins
(48 - 12:44am, Dec 14)
Last: Aspring OTP Dancing Monkey (6 - 4 - 3)

NewsblogOT - NBA 2017-2018 Tip-off Thread
(1974 - 12:39am, Dec 14)
Last: Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos

NewsblogRyan Thibs has his HOF Ballot Tracker Up and Running!
(424 - 12:25am, Dec 14)
Last: Joyful Calculus Instructor

NewsblogJack Morris, Alan Trammell elected to Hall |
(215 - 11:52pm, Dec 13)
Last: PreservedFish

Hall of Merit2018 Hall of Merit Ballot
(26 - 11:35pm, Dec 13)
Last: OCF

Hall of Merit2018 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(372 - 11:31pm, Dec 13)
Last: Howie Menckel

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 2010 Discussion
(9 - 10:27pm, Dec 13)
Last: DL from MN

NewsblogEric Hosmer will get paid even though the numbers may argue against it
(32 - 10:06pm, Dec 13)
Last: puck

NewsblogUCL of Los Angeles Angels' Ohtani is damaged, according to physical
(20 - 10:02pm, Dec 13)
Last: You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR)

NewsblogThe Cincinnati Reds showed us what they showed Shohei Ohtani
(7 - 7:16pm, Dec 13)
Last: Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams)

NewsblogDerek Jeter's defense of Giancarlo Stanton trade was weak |
(50 - 5:52pm, Dec 13)
Last: Nasty Nate

NewsblogIf Kyle Schwarber goes anywhere could it be back to Cubs leadoff spot? – Chicago Sun-Times
(28 - 5:35pm, Dec 13)
Last: Andere Richtingen

Page rendered in 0.3358 seconds
46 querie(s) executed