Just shuffling the deck chairs, nothing to see here

Oh, it's worse than that. He was the last of Drayton's flunkies, given nothing, and had it taken away. No reason not to let him play out the string (unless John Henry called and wants to surprise Lucky and Bobby V with a new manager).

Well, put a major league roster on the field and then consider whether the manager should stay or go.

Watching them the last 2 days vs. the D Backs, they are 2004 D Backs bad though.

This was a mercy killing.

Hey, if you can't win with that lineup, you can't be much of a manager!

Whacking the hitting and 1B coaches too is a bit harsh.

Brad Mills now knows what it's like to be released from prison.

I bet the Red Sox have already called him.

Mike Quade is available.

This will solve all of the Astros' problems :)

MLB called and said, "We need Mills to manage a team people care about. It worked for us with John Henry, it will work for him."

Isn't it more likely--rather than less likely--that these firings were based on true merit rather than the team's record? I mean, if you have a manager who you think stinks but the team is winning anyway, it's very hard to fire that guy. If you have a manager on a team that is thought to be a pretty good team but is losing, there may be pressure to fire the guy even if you think he is a good manager. But in a situation like the Astros-where everyone knows the team lacks talent-there is more freedom to evaluate the manager honestly, and less pressure to simply can him or keep him on the basis of W/L record.

So, these firings are not "We're losing badly and so we have to make a kneejerk change". They're more like "We know the team lacks talent and are not going to win lots of games now. We're not firing you for that--we simply don't think you're the right manager going forward."

So, these firings are not "We're losing badly and so we have to make a kneejerk change". They're more like "We know the team lacks talent and are not going to win lots of games now. We're not firing you for that--we simply don't think you're the right manager going forward."

The simpler way to explain the firings is that these weren't Luhnow's guys. They were legacy staff in place when he was hired. So it was always a matter of time until he replaced them with his own hires. The uninspiring play of the team simply provides cover for press and fans who are too dull to see beyond the superficial.

OK then, who might Luhnow pursue as the next non-interim manager? Is there anyone in the Astros' system he might want? Could someone he knew in St. Louis be lured south? There are probably good minor-league managers throughout the game that might work well given Houston's situation; who might be the best fit?

I'm guessing the choice won't be a retread, but someone relatively unknown to casual fans.

The team is terrible..they are mostly in the dark media wise, but when you look at their lineup it is a bunch of quadruple A players. Mills is just being thrown to the wolves in order to make the fans believe they are doing something here.

Shouldn't the headline be "Astros Free Brad Mills" instead?

Does Luhnow have a good relationship with Jose Oquendo? Just thinking of Cardinal staff considered to replace LaRussa...

If I'm Mills I'm probably fairly happy today. Luhnow probably wanted to bring in his own guy So this at least allows Mills to enter the off-season unencumbered.

And if the Red Sox want to hire him I'm on board which I'm sure is important to them.

Yeah, I'd take at least 2:1 odds that Mills is the Red Sox manager come February.

in a situation like the Astros-where everyone knows the team lacks talent-there is more freedom to evaluate the manager honestly

Maybe there is more freedom to evaluate the manager honestly, but there isn't much opportunity to evaluate the manager fairly.

Maybe there is more freedom to evaluate the manager honestly, but there isn't much opportunity to evaluate the manager fairly.

There is, as long as the manager is being evaluated on realistic objectives. If Mills is being evaluated on his ability to win games at the major league level, then he's not being evaluted fairly. But I hope to hell that isn't the criteria Luhnow is using based on where the club is and what he needs from the current/next skipper. So if he's looking at the only thing that really matters in his manager* - the ability to develop young kids at the major league level - then the past two seasons through the current all-out talent purge have given him ample opportunity to weight Mills's fitness for the job.

I have no doubt that there are particular skippers for particular situations. Mills may be a great choice for the next Red Sox manager and a lousy one for the Astros to keep in their employ.

* Though Luhnow seems like a sharp enough guy, obviously I have no way of knowing whether he's done that here or if this is just a deck-chair decision.

The "deck chairs on the Titanic" analogy is flawed. The Titanic hung in there until mid-April.

Yeah, I'd take at least 2:1 odds that Mills is the Red Sox manager come February.

I dunno, it might be the right pick, but it would be taken as "Here's the solution to our problems: The guy who managed comically bad teams for two years and got fired" by the yahoos. In the current environment, it'd be a very tough sell. And I don't think Red Sox management are the type of people who don't care about what's a tough sell.

I dunno, it might be the right pick, but it would be taken as "Here's the solution to our problems: The guy who managed comically bad teams for two years and got fired" by the yahoos. In the current environment, it'd be a very tough sell. And I don't think Red Sox management are the type of people who don't care about what's a tough sell.

I don't think so. There would be some of that but I think the "he left after 2009 and the Sox haven't made the playoffs since" narrative would be the one that got the majority of play.

Edit - in fairness I might be protecting my own feelings there.

I dunno, it might be the right pick, but it would be taken as "Here's the solution to our problems: The guy who managed comically bad teams for two years and got fired" by the yah

I think Mills would be seen much more as "we screwed up, here's Tito 2.0". Remember Tito 1.0 managed some mediocre to bad teams and got fired in his first go-round.

The yahoos just want Bobby V gone. The yahoos are not universally wrong about everything.

EDIT: Just to clarify the underlying causes, Brad Mills was the Red Sox bench coach under Tito from 2004-2009.

Right, and I definitely am not trying to argue that Valentine should remain manager because Mills would not be an acclaimed replacement upon his hiring. And if the Astros had been "mediocre to bad", I think that'd be one thing, but they have been almost uniquely horrible. Like I said, it's gonna require a lot of explaining. I guess a lot of it depends on how much of an impression Mills made on the casual fan while he was in Boston.

Like I said, it's gonna require a lot of explaining. I guess a lot of it depends on how much of an impression Mills made on the casual fan while he was in Boston.

I assume he made zero impression, but he's not going to require "a lot of explaining". Here is the explanation:

Brad Mills was Tito's second-in-command from 2004 to 2009.

Done.

I think bringing Mills in to manage would be a sop to the fans, not a move that might get scotched because of worries about the fans. I think you've got Red Sox fans precisely wrong. This is a move that would be extremely popular with the fans.

The most likely thing to keep the Red Sox from hiring Mills would be that it'd require Lucchino and the rest of ownership to admit they made a huge mistake. I'm not sure they're ready to do that. This is not currently a functional organization.

(The other most likely thing to keep the Red Sox from hiring Mills is that maybe Brad Mills isn't a good field manager or maybe Ben Cherington or someone in ownership doesn't like him, or maybe Papi and Pedroia didn't respect him, who knows. That should be noted, I don't actually know anything about Mills other than the vague, positive things people say about the intelligence of bench coaches.)

Does Luhnow have a good relationship with Jose Oquendo? Just thinking of Cardinal staff considered to replace LaRussa...

Hard to know. Luhnow was in the group that help oust Jocketty, and Jocketty was loved by TLR.

OK then, who might Luhnow pursue as the next non-interim manager? Is there anyone in the Astros' system he might want? Could someone he knew in St. Louis be lured south? There are probably good minor-league managers throughout the game that might work well given Houston's situation; who might be the best fit?

Luhnow isn't a traditionalist at all, and didn't have a strong relation with most of the players in the organization, he's a number cruncher who is known to be a number cruncher in all the derogatory ways that a player can refer to a numbers cruncher. The best retread that fits his philosophy would of course be Dierker. The other retread that I imagine would be a nice splash for his entrance into the AL would be Francona.

If he decides to go with an established Cardinal, Chris Maloney is a widely respected minor league manager, now the first base coach for the Cardinals.

Tony DeFrancesco, the AAA manager, is the interim manager. At the morning news conference, he points out that he got his managing experience in the A's system, and that pitching, defense, OBP are important to winning. Luhnow's special assistant, Dan Radison, is the hitting coach. I recently read that he had been working with Brett Wallace on his swing, which struck me as odd (at the time) since he was an assistant to the GM. Ty VanBurkleo (also formerly from the A's system) is the new hitting coach. All are interim, but Luhnow says they will have a job in the organization next season no matter what happens with the permanent coaching staff.

Luhnow said that the organization arrived at the conclusion a week ago that Mills would not be offered a contract for next season. He said that he didn't want a lame duck manager for the remainder of the season.

Luhnow said he will immediately begin conducting a search for the permanent manager position, but that DeFrancesco is in the running, and has a period of time to show what he can do at the major league level. Luhnow said he has recently spent a lot of time around the Oklahoma City clubhouse and liked what he saw.

As you would expect when a team is losing this much, most Astros' fans wanted to see Mills gone. I'm probably different from most fans in that I liked Mills. I pretty much assumed that he would not be the manager next season, though, because Crane and Luhnow seem to want a clean sweep of the organization, essentially starting from scratch with Luhnow's guys in place. Last week, Luhnow surprised everyone by sending Bobby Heck, the scouting director, out the door, and replacing him with his assistant, who was a Cardinals' scout.

It's possible that Mills wasn't the best guy for developing young players. But he was a class act, and I think he cared deeply about the players and team, even when the prospect of winning each day was so low. His first reaction to being fired was that he felt terrible that he let down the two coaches who also lost their jobs. He also showed class in discussing the organization and the fans.

#11 Salviaman,

What's the origin of that screen name? Are you into smoking hallucinogenic botanicals? Are you a gardener? You like your sage pasta?

If the Red Sox hire Brad Mills, it would be very reminiscent of the Braves hiring Freddy Gonzalez.

Another possible destination (besides Boston) for Mills? Wherever Francona manages next. I think most people believe Francona will be back in the dugout soon, and will be a top choice for most teams looking for a manager this winter. Mills could end up back as Francona's bench coach in that scenario, no?

Assuming the Red Sox end the season within a couple of games of .500, with a similar "playing out the string" vibe, I think the next manager actually has relatively little pressure. I can't speak for all Red Sox fans, but I am certainly not bullish, at this point, in the team's chances of being a World Series contender in 2013. What we all want, I think, is a team in 2013 that can cut the bull#### and go back to what made the team so good in the 2003-2009 period: deep lineups with lots of players who get on base and have extra-base power (if not HR pop). Look at that 2003/2004 team - the number of guys they had that hits lots of doubles, and got on base at a .350 or better clip, was incredible. We think of those teams for their personalities as much as anything, but Millar, Mueller, Bellhorn, Nixon, Varitek, and obviously Manny and Ortiz...these guys were getting on base all the time. Did the Francona (and Mills) leadership style get the best out of guys? Is the problem more that instead of a Varitek, we have Salty? Instead of Youkilis coming up, we have Middlebrooks (who can't tell a strike from a ball)? Crawford is making $20m a year, instead of Manny, out in LF? Does the manager have anything to do with any of this?

Yeah, I'd take at least 2:1 odds that Mills is the Red Sox manager come February.

If not the Red Sox, I think Theo hires him to replace Sveum.

The "deck chairs on the Titanic" analogy is flawed. The Titanic hung in there until mid-April.

I don't know, the Titanic didn't make it through the first road trip.

If the Red Sox hire Brad Mills, it would be very reminiscent of the Braves hiring Freddy Gonzalez.

I think the crazy clown interim period in Boston's case will create a very different dynamic. (No clue different how, but, different.)

EDIT: Also, I think that voluntarily stepping aside for your designated successor is quite different than presiding over a historic collapse and getting fired.

Mills strikes me as the new breed of manager--dull, passive, lacking fire--in much the same mold as Ned Yost, Bob Geren, John Russell. All of them were or are are failed managers.

I certainly don't think that Mills was the main culrpit for the disaster in Houston. Yet, I didn't see him as part of the longterm solution either.

Are either Larry Dierker or Hal Lanier available to step in? They're two of the better managers in Astros history.

I don't get the timing. Why now? What was the urgency? Let him finish the season, unless they really wanted to see what DeFrancesco could do.

FWIW, just based on his resume, I long thought DeFrancesco would make a fine MLB manager. Always won in the minors, schooled in the A's way of thinking - can any A's fans tell us more about him? I'm guessing he's not the long-term option here, but it seems like you could do a lot worse.

Me too on DeFrancesco, though I wouldn't know.

Also, I think that voluntarily stepping aside for your designated successor is quite different than presiding over a historic collapse and getting fired.

How about presiding over a historic collapse after announcing that you're voluntarily stepping aside for your designated successor?

I long thought DeFrancesco would make a fine MLB manager

I dunno, does being the Finder of Lost Loves really qualify you to run a major-league team?

How about presiding over a historic collapse after announcing that you're voluntarily stepping aside for your designated successor?

Who are we talking about here? The Braves' collapse was Fredi's first year.

Hal Lanier was let go as manager of the Frontier League's Normal CornBelters a year ago. That might be good experience for managing the Astros for the next year or two, but I am guessing he will not get the call.

Canning Mills now does him a favor. He gets (as he said) to see his son play before the minor league season ends, and he can get a leg up on interviews for his next job. Had he gotten the axe in October, the former would not be possible and he might miss out on early opportunities.

Radison was a coach for Riggleman's Cubs in the 1990s, fwiw

As you would expect when a team is losing this much, most Astros' fans wanted to see Mills gone. I'm probably different from most fans in that I liked Mills.

Houston Chronicle Online Poll

Do you approve of the Astos' decision to fire Brad Mills?

Yes (51%, 1,114 Votes)
No (49%, 1,057 Votes)

Hal Lanier was let go as manager of the Frontier League's Normal CornBelters a year ago. That might be good experience for managing the Astros for the next year or two

You think this team is normal???

You think this team is normal???

The trouble with normal is it always gets worse.

I don't get the timing. Why now? What was the urgency? Let him finish the season, unless they really wanted to see what DeFrancesco could do.

Assuming that Mills is as desired as others in the thread has pointed out, it's in his best interest to get fired now, so that he can prepare for the upcoming job interviews etc. The two likely organization that will hire him(Red Sox/Cubs), are both going to want a new manager by the end of October.

And yes, the reason from the teams point of view, is to see if their defacto guy is capable. A try out for a month, and then an interview afterwards to get a legitimate feel for the team, is not a bad thing.

Mills strikes me as the new breed of manager--dull, passive, lacking fire--in much the same mold as Ned Yost, Bob Geren, John Russell.

Nothing new breed about it. For every Earl Weaver, there'a a Lum Harris, Don Gutteridge and Clyde King and 6 more contemporaries.

I'll give you Harris and Gutteridge, but Clyde King was not dull, passive, and lacking fire.

brad mills was a goner - i knew it the minnit his bench coach was replaced with a luhnow yes-man. and it was guaranteed when bobby heck got fired, although he'd actually done a good job once he was allowed to sign decent players. it's just luhnow wants his OWN yesman in there

and let's be real here - couldn't billy martin or TLR win with this bunch of has-beens and never weres. AAAA players look great vs AAA players and look like shtt vs ML players. we have exactly TWO major league players on a 25 man team and that is SORRY. defrancesco won at AAA because most of his players were AAAA guys. it doesn't make him a good manager.

the new guy ain't gonna get more out of these clowns than millsie-poo ever did. so crane is tired of all the losing. what did the silly ass expect? he wants bargain basement players and he got em and he's getting fer shtt playing.

millsie-poo wasn't terrible except for his obsession with platooning EVERYONE except altuve and his obsession with running thru relievers for the leftyelfty crap. dude had a different lineup EVERY FREAKING DAY.

got no idea who is gonna run this sorry outfit next year but you betcher ass it is gonna be some cardinals flunky or else some stat geek type guy who is a yesman to luhnow.

Lisa, see you do still care.

Lisa, see you do still care.

For about another month I imagine. Then she is converting to the Pirates or something (please tell me you aren't going to the Cubs, Reds or Brewers)

got no idea who is gonna run this sorry outfit next year but you betcher ass it is gonna be some cardinals flunky or else some stat geek type guy who is a yesman to luhnow.

I'm not sure I understand the yes-man complaints. Why would they not want a manager with a philosophy consistent with organizational goals? If I buy a bankrupt, failed sushi restaurant in order to turn the building into a French restaurant, firing the sushi chef and replacing him with a guy that cooks French cuisine is hardly about getting a yes man involved.

It's not as if Mills was some brilliant manager that was simply getting it done in a different way than Luhnow wanted or he oversaw a number of success stories - he's very average, middling, bland time-server who essentially spent a year leading off Jordan Schafer because he played centerfield and who upon being given Francisco Cordero, instantly thought that using him in save situations was a good idea.

got no idea who is gonna run this sorry outfit next year but you betcher ass it is gonna be some cardinals flunky or else some stat geek type guy

MGL for manager!!

joe

yeh, i know. i admit it. it's like watching your ex look happy even if the new female is pig ugly

cfb

haven't really settled on a new luuuuvvv, but i can absolutely guarantee you it won't be the c*bs. unlikely to be reds. might could be brewers, though, not sure. am kind of deciding between braves (michael bourn) and pirates (wandy and andrew mccutchen who kind of reminds me of barry lamar only not near as unbelieveably good-looking and yes he was when he was the same age. well, still is, old as he is) and cards (lance berkman. and besides, it's my mama's team now and she's a pretty powerful influence. she has already completely left the astros. when she says it's ovah it is OVAH!!!!!)

dan,

i completely understand wanting a french cooking chef for a french restaurant. no es problemos as they say in france. it is the insisting on hiring ONLY people who have worked for only YOU in your other french restaurant - that has me concerned. like getting any outsider is strickly taboooo. and it's going so far as to fire the dishwashers as well as the cleaning ladies that gots me worried.

you can have organizational philosophy out the ass but when you insist on only one organization for all your philosophy, you get extreme tunnel vision and that is where all the yes-man stuff coming from.

and these days best i can tell, managers aren't there to manage a GAME. they are there to shoot the bull with the media (real easy in houston seeing as how they have a couple of uninterested guys who wouldn't nevah think of saying anything they weren't told to say) and keep some kind of peace in the clubhouse which is easy with a bunch of crappy players who are all just genuinely Happy To Be There.

there manager is gonna play whoever the GM tells him to and when. i wouldn't even be surprised if the GM tells him when to pull starters and when to put in which reliever and pull him when.

and of course he is there to take the fall when the GM/owner is wrong.

haven't really settled on a new luuuuvvv, but i can absolutely guarantee you it won't be the c*bs. unlikely to be reds. might could be brewers, though, not sure. am kind of deciding between braves (michael bourn) and pirates (wandy and andrew mccutchen who kind of reminds me of barry lamar only not near as unbelieveably good-looking and yes he was when he was the same age. well, still is, old as he is) and cards (lance berkman. and besides, it's my mama's team now and she's a pretty powerful influence. she has already completely left the astros. when she says it's ovah it is OVAH!!!!!)

Here we thought that the teams vying for the wild card were actually vying for the post season, but now the truth comes out, they are vying for Lisa's heart. (with the exception of the Brewers, but they have Harvey to campaign for them)

Lisa, please don't rule the Nationals out of your "next favorite team" sweepstakes, despite the four-game sweep in Houston earlier this month and the thought that you might be deemed a bandwagon jumper. We'd love to have you as part of the curly W crew.

she says it's ovah it is OVAH!!!!!

Sounds like somebody is channeling Hawk Harrelson. Her new team is gonna be the Sox.

It's always been ovah.

forgot

dan
one of the few facts i definitely KNOW is that mills was ordered to use cordero as the closer and he had NO choice. same thing with playing jordan schafer all that time. LUHNOW and acolytes are the ones thought schafer had all this unfilled potential.

who knows what millsie-poo actually THOUGHT

i am not gonna blame an employee for obeying orders. what i have not been able to find out yet is if mills was ordered to do the platoon thingy and was given lineups every day - and i would not be even a little bit surprised if that was true

and he's NOT gonna talk at ALL if he wants another job in baseball. after all these years, tim purpura has refused to say anything whatsoever about his employment with the astros. at least on the record. he has vanished to somewhere in the minors.

terpnats

i got nothing against the nats, but you are right about me not wanting to be a bandwagon jumper on-er. and besides, trouble is that i am embarrassed about and trying to deny my totally unexplanable thing for jayson werth. i mean, my gawd, there is absolutely NO excuse - he is too tall. and too hairy. seriously WTF

i mean he's got me re-writing sir-mixalot

oh
my
GAWD becky
just look at that ICKY face hair
i mean
there's so much of it
and it's just
out there

i mean,
he looks like some hippie
and who understands those hippies anyway

he's just so WHITE n hairy

ah like that white boy
and i canNOT lie
you other sistas can't deny

that when jayson walks by
with that big ol bat
and


oh nevah mind - i know the TOS and this is a nice clean site

I dont see the cubs firing there manager. He seems to doing a pretty good job given what he has to work with. Without a doubt he will be back next year.

one of the few facts i definitely KNOW is that mills was ordered to use cordero as the closer and he had NO choice. same thing with playing jordan schafer all that time. LUHNOW and acolytes are the ones thought schafer had all this unfilled potential.

How do you know this? Knowing Luhnow and his "acolytes," I can't imagine that they ordered Mills to use Cordero as the closer or think Jordan Schafer has unfilled potential.

Heyman: Joe Pettini, Chris Maloney and Jim Riggleman are three potential candidates for the Astros' managerial vacancy.

Pettini is the bench coach, Maloney is a Cards first base coach and Riggleman is a joke.

dan

i hear tell - or as they say in the news biz "a source close to someone or other in the Organization up to and not excluding ushers, cleaning ladies, parking lot guys and flies on the wall"

and those 2 items are the only 2 things i am POSITIVE about. cordero was supposed to replace brett myers. check it out your own self. you notice that after myers was traded that they got cordero immediately AND no new closer was named before cordero got here AND it was announced that cordero would close. you can say this is just PR but millsie-poo had no say in that.

as for jordan schafer, well, i don't/didn't get it neither but what can i say. i thought it was just ed wade's insanity but no. every braves fan i know told me schafer isn't a ML ballplayer any more than i am for every obvious reason and they were all right - exactly right.