Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Tuesday, October 22, 2019

Astros Staffer’s Outburst at Female Reporters Illustrates MLB’s Forgive-and-Forget Attitude Toward Domestic Violence

More than an hour after José Altuve won the Astros the pennant, the party in the Houston clubhouse still raged. Rightfielder Josh Reddick was crushing vodka Red Bulls. Starter Gerrit Cole smoked a cigar. Shortstop Carlos Correa gazed lovingly at the American League championship trophy.

And in the center of the room, assistant general manager Brandon Taubman turned to a group of three female reporters, including one wearing a purple domestic-violence awareness bracelet, and yelled, half a dozen times, “Thank God we got Osuna! I’m so f———glad we got Osuna!”

The outburst was offensive and frightening enough that another Houston staffer apologized. The Astros declined to comment. They also declined to make Taubman available for an interview.

Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 22, 2019 at 09:21 AM | 324 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: asshats, astros, domestic violence, general, houston, houston astros, media

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 3 of 4 pages  < 1 2 3 4 > 
   201. Srul Itza Posted: October 22, 2019 at 10:38 PM (#5893193)
Headline

Astros Executive's Rant At Reporters Draws Firestorm On Eve Of Series



On the eve of what should be a major PR bonanza for the Houston Astros, this guy doesn't have the sense not to make this kind of a scene.

He, and the PR, have made their bosses lives and jobs that much harder, for no good reason.

And that is why you get want to get rid of him, unless he really is an F'n genius of some (other) kind.
   202. puck Posted: October 22, 2019 at 10:48 PM (#5893196)
188: National Public Radio. Who are big fans of Canada!


I know, NPR is so sad that Canada doesn't even know their name. Sigh.
   203. base ball chick Posted: October 23, 2019 at 12:20 AM (#5893241)
. Posted: October 22, 2019 at 08:02 PM (#5893075)

Finance Bro.



Love how everyone keeps calling him names like this, and commenting on irrelevancies like his looks. Gives regular centrists real confidence in your bona fides


- seems more polite than the much more accurate term "buttwipe"

(history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 22, 2019 at 08:06 PM (#5893078)

Hell, I'm a paleo-conservative, the absolute furthest thing from "woke" or a "SJW", and I find this utterly despicable. Somebody should have punched this ####### in the face. That's what "old fashioned" men did to ######## who bully women


- zackly

kind of a shame than none of the 3 women did it
   204. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 23, 2019 at 05:25 AM (#5893264)
Ignore List successfully updated

Catching up on this thread. But I would also like to congratulate Quaker on being the second person on my ignore list.

Whether he is trolling, or genuinely believes the misogynistic crap he is spewing here, it's clear there is no value in reading any of his "contributions."

It's Ray. Ignore it. It's what he does.

FWIW, I really don't think it is. I give Ray as much crap as anyone, and he can definitely both be an ass, and spectacularly wrong about things. But I genuinely give him credit for being willing to be wrong and be an ass openly, and not hide behind sockpuppets. I don't buy that he is messing around on a 12 year old sock account...
   205. Rusty Priske Posted: October 23, 2019 at 09:05 AM (#5893290)
Did this guy actually just go and track me down on Twitter so he could figure out a way to insult me?

And THAT was the best he could come up with?

Weak.
   206. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 23, 2019 at 09:44 AM (#5893299)
I don't buy that he is messing around on a 12 year old sock account...


I didn't know that, and that is a strong argument against, but this is classic Ray-speak:

Do you think there was any chance of physical harm befalling one of these reporters in the middle of the clubhouse? I certainly don't.

I'm not sure how they navigate bars back in NYC if they're scared of drunk finance bros making off color remarks.


The "using off color remarks" to describe repeatedly yelling expletives at someone spot on.
   207. spycake Posted: October 23, 2019 at 10:06 AM (#5893307)
Ray may have been alone in his thought processes on this site sometimes, but he's clearly not alone in the world.
   208. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 23, 2019 at 10:07 AM (#5893308)
Idiots exist everywhere, BTF very much included.
   209. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 10:38 AM (#5893331)
- zackly

kind of a shame than none of the 3 women did it


They should've kicked him in the nuts. That's one thing women have going for them, they're allowed to fight dirty vs. a man ;-)
   210. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 10:38 AM (#5893333)
Did this guy actually just go and track me down on Twitter so he could figure out a way to insult me?

And THAT was the best he could come up with?

Weak.


Explain please.
   211. spycake Posted: October 23, 2019 at 10:43 AM (#5893339)
Explain please.


I believe he's referring to Quaker's post 127, with the quoting error.
   212. Lassus Posted: October 23, 2019 at 10:49 AM (#5893344)
Never saw him quake.










Enjoy the veal! Next up, the human jigsaw!
   213. manchestermets Posted: October 23, 2019 at 11:00 AM (#5893350)
And THAT was the best he could come up with?

Weak.


Yeah, especially since your terrible macaron take is a sitting duck.
   214. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 11:18 AM (#5893362)
I believe he's referring to Quaker's post 127, with the quoting error.

Thanks, missed the Twitter avatar reference.
   215. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 11:23 AM (#5893364)
Never saw him quake.


Do not quiver, whoever you are. We will not eat you!
   216. Rusty Priske Posted: October 23, 2019 at 11:27 AM (#5893366)
Yeah, especially since your terrible macaron take is a sitting duck.


LOL. Nice.
   217. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: October 23, 2019 at 11:44 AM (#5893375)
Jeff Luhnow was on talk radio. Going to withhold comment until MLB finishes investigation. Apologized a lot but interestingly never apologized directly to the SI individual. Finished with "This situation should have never happened".
   218. Blastin Posted: October 23, 2019 at 11:56 AM (#5893382)
"This situation should have never happened".


Avoiding agency 101
   219. Nasty Nate Posted: October 23, 2019 at 11:59 AM (#5893386)
On the eve of what should be a major PR bonanza for the Houston Astros, this guy doesn't have the sense not to make this kind of a scene.

He, and the PR, have made their bosses lives and jobs that much harder, for no good reason.

And that is why you get want to get rid of him, unless he really is an F'n genius of some (other) kind.
Yeah, this bozo thought the Astros were getting too much backlash for getting Osuna ... and he just ensured that the backlash is now extended and amplified.
   220. PreservedFish Posted: October 23, 2019 at 12:01 PM (#5893388)
"This situation should have never happened".


"This is what comes of allowing females in the clubhouse."
   221. notdavo Posted: October 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM (#5893390)
Ben Lindbergh at The Ringer:

Houston’s response to a report about a prominent executive reveals a culture that not only values titles above all else, but condemns anyone who dares to feel differently. The Astros’ actions are the story of MLB’s signature event—and no amount of winning should change that.

If you do dwell on any of this, you may come across someone who instructs you to stop fixating on off-the-field issues and simply watch the World Series. To which I would answer: We were trying to, man. (I’m assuming this someone would be a man.) The World Series is exciting and José Altuve is adorable and you can’t constantly be pissed off, so the righteous indignation that accompanies a team’s treating a domestic violence suspension as an arbitrage opportunity slowly settles into resigned, sardonic tweets. That’s where we were on Saturday, until a high-ranking Astros executive went out of his way to reignite the outrage and a PR flack fanned the flames, implicating the entire organization. To put this in playground terms: The Astros started it, and they still haven’t faced any external consequences or imposed any discipline themselves.
   222. Panik on the streets of Flushing! (Trout! Trout!) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 12:08 PM (#5893391)
Lindbergh is so freakin good.
   223. Hot Wheeling American Posted: October 23, 2019 at 12:09 PM (#5893392)
Police-involved shooting Assistant GM-involved harassment.
   224. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: October 23, 2019 at 12:09 PM (#5893394)
Kind of fascinating that the Astros manager was the only person in a management position who got the response correct. Maybe it's because he has to deal with a lot of different types of people in his role not just players but coaches and reporters and other media stuff while the front office peeps just talk to other front office be it internal or external. And the Astros owner is kind of known as a douche himself so him getting this right is pretty much not possible.
   225. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: October 23, 2019 at 12:11 PM (#5893396)
And all respect to the Houston social media response which is kind of dominated by 'fire this assclown so we can enjoy the Astros again' with the minority being 'it's just WORDS man'
   226. Blastin Posted: October 23, 2019 at 12:17 PM (#5893400)
Lindbergh is so freakin good.


He is. Also, he got the framing of the Astros right. They may well be one of the most TALENTED teams ever built, but surely not near the best in terms of execution, and "greatest" needs both.
   227. Panik on the streets of Flushing! (Trout! Trout!) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 12:33 PM (#5893409)
Also, he got the framing of the Astros right. They may well be one of the most TALENTED teams ever built, but surely not near the best in terms of execution, and "greatest" needs both.


Co-sign
   228. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 12:43 PM (#5893412)
"This situation should have never happened".


As if it were something that occurred on its own, like a volcanic eruption, rather than the direct consequences of a series of poor decisions by team employees.
   229. RoyalFlush Posted: October 23, 2019 at 12:57 PM (#5893423)
Yeah, especially since your terrible macaron take is a sitting duck.


I was more offended by the Parsley half of that quote, to be honest.
   230. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:12 PM (#5893438)
Luhnow:"What we really don't know is the intent behind the inappropriate comments he made. We may never know that because the person who said them and the people who heard them at least up to this point have different perspectives"

Susan Slusser on Twitter: It's really too bad Jeff doesn't know Taubman to ask him his intent. Someone really should introduce them
   231. JJ1986 Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:19 PM (#5893442)
What's the not-bad intent? He already lied about the player being there.
   232. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:26 PM (#5893452)
Luhnow:"What we really don't know is the intent behind the inappropriate comments he made. We may never know that because the person who said them and the people who heard them at least up to this point have different perspectives"

What horseshit.
   233. Blastin Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:26 PM (#5893453)
Luhnow:"What we really don't know is the intent behind the inappropriate comments he made.


excuse me what
   234. SoSH U at work Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:28 PM (#5893455)
What possible intent could he have had, given the circumstances? Osuna hadn't just carried the Astros to the pennant and Taubman was crowing about what a great acquisition he was to the whole room. He almost blew the damn game.
   235. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:35 PM (#5893459)
WTF would Luhnow continue to look like an idiot protecting this guy? Does Taubman have incriminating photos?
   236. Blastin Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:39 PM (#5893460)
According to the scuttlebutt, the Astros and Luhnow literally don't care how bad they look and just want to win. Yet this can't possibly help them win, so I think they're just cocky and feeling invulnerable.
   237. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:41 PM (#5893462)
According to the scuttlebutt, the Astros and Luhnow literally don't care how bad they look and just want to win. Yet this can't possibly help them win, so I think they're just cocky and feeling invulnerable.

Do they care about making money? Because this has to turn off some fans and sponsors. Also, I can't believe a guy who wasn't even in the industry 5 years ago can be that crucial to their success.

I think it's the cocky/invulnerable thing, and Crane and Luhnow are probably ######## just like Taubman. They literally think he did nothing wrong.
   238. Blastin Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:42 PM (#5893465)
And are too proud to admit they have erred.

   239. JJ1986 Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:43 PM (#5893467)
They don't think that they're accountable to anyone and believe that they can just make problems disappear by powering through.
   240. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:45 PM (#5893469)
And are too proud to admit they have erred.


They don't think that they're accountable to anyone and believe that they can just make problems disappear by powering through.

I believe the literary term is Hubris.

Hopefully Juan Soto can be Nemesis.
   241. jmurph Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:49 PM (#5893472)
I can't believe the "this is what happens when you turn baseball over to the quants and their algorithms" take was sitting right there and sugarbear didn't pounce on it, instead opting for whatever nonsense he blathered all over the last two pages. He has to be kicking himself.
   242. Zonk Was In The Loop and Followed POTUS Orders Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:57 PM (#5893479)
You have to admit...

It's quite an achievement to make me reconsider who I wish had won the ALCS.
   243. SoSH U at work Posted: October 23, 2019 at 01:58 PM (#5893480)

I can't believe the "this is what happens when you turn baseball over to the quants and their algorithms" take was sitting right there and sugarbear didn't pounce on it, instead opting for whatever nonsense he blathered all over the last two pages. He has to be kicking himself.


Yeah, he was faced with a stathead FOs against the SJWs conundrum, much like his one-dimensional sluggers v. data-driven shifts puzzle. So many hobby horses, and, obviously, so much time.

   244. Blastin Posted: October 23, 2019 at 02:09 PM (#5893484)
I believe the literary term is Hubris.


I mean, I would much rather hubris be the narrative than "lolBryceharperlol" if the Nats win.

   245. JAHV Posted: October 23, 2019 at 02:13 PM (#5893487)
Also, I can't believe a guy who wasn't even in the industry 5 years ago can be that crucial to their success.


You might not be able to believe it, but there's a possibility it's true, and based on his rapid rise within the organization, it seems clear that Luhnow thinks he's hot stuff. My point is that I think this crazy tack the Astros have taken, including Luhnow's nutty statement about intent and perspectives, is probably a little column A and a little column B. They're feeling cocky and invulnerable, but Luhnow also has no desire to axe an employee he thinks is a key piece of their front office. Yeah, he made some awful remarks that will get them some bad press, but those remarks and that bad press won't keep them from winning, while firing this guy might, at least in the long-run.

The counter-argument is that the bad press might cause them to lose some fans, or this general attitude they have of "win at all costs" might eventually get them in trouble with MLB. But as Lindbergh's article lays out, they consummated the Osuna transaction over a year ago and haven't had to pay any meaningful price for it yet.
   246. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: October 23, 2019 at 02:13 PM (#5893488)
They don't think that they're accountable to anyone and believe that they can just make problems disappear by powering through.

It worked with the Verlander thing where they wouldn't let a credentialed writer enter the locker room earlier this year so they might be right. I'm not sure what type of penalty MLB can enforce, but, unless they want the Astros to keep behaving poorly, they need to send a message that treating reporters unprofessionally is out of bounds.
   247. Blastin Posted: October 23, 2019 at 02:14 PM (#5893489)
MLB needs to step in, forcefully.

   248. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: October 23, 2019 at 02:18 PM (#5893494)
   249. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: October 23, 2019 at 02:20 PM (#5893496)
236--Last night I got a DM that the dude at minimum was getting suspended. Then I get the new messaging you shared. So what changed? Suspension is a thing but doesn't sabotage team or the dude's career. On his current path he's getting hired away in a year or two anyway. Weird
   250. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 23, 2019 at 02:21 PM (#5893497)
They don't think that they're accountable to anyone and believe that they can just make problems disappear by powering through.
This is it exactly. People will talk about it for a couple of news cycles, and then the media will move on to something else and there will be no consequences. That's what happens 95 percent of the time (or more). Corporations and politicians know this all too well.
   251. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 02:38 PM (#5893506)
Crane and Luhnow are probably ######## just like Taubman


Crane almost certainly is. See here:

"Crane told his subordinates not to hire blacks because "once you hire blacks, you can never fire them." On other occasions, Crane explained the reason he wanted to keep blacks out of the company was that his top managers are bigoted and they would mistreat the minorities, "giving them no choice but to sue Eagle."

Witnesses also said Crane did not permit the company to advertise job openings because he did not want to create a paper trail of unhired qualified minorities.

To discourage blacks and women from applying, Eagle managers refused to let female and minority applicants enter its secured facilities to fill out job applications. Eagle disagreed with that assessment.

Crane also warned managers not to hire women of child-bearing age because their productivity would be low. And top company officers told employees that women aren't suitable for management positions because male managers won't work with a woman."
   252. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 02:40 PM (#5893508)
Also, according to Ben Lindbergh and Travis Sawchik, Luhnow wanted to draft child molester Luke Heimlich, and had to be talked out of it.
   253. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 03:19 PM (#5893521)
You might not be able to believe it, but there's a possibility it's true, and based on his rapid rise within the organization, it seems clear that Luhnow thinks he's hot stuff. My point is that I think this crazy tack the Astros have taken, including Luhnow's nutty statement about intent and perspectives, is probably a little column A and a little column B. They're feeling cocky and invulnerable, but Luhnow also has no desire to axe an employee he thinks is a key piece of their front office. Yeah, he made some awful remarks that will get them some bad press, but those remarks and that bad press won't keep them from winning, while firing this guy might, at least in the long-run.

I don't trust Luhnow's judgement one bit. A person with good judgement fired this guy days ago.

I wouldn't be shocked if Luhnow and Crane have done or said worse, and they're afraid Taubman airs their dirty laundry if fired. Seems a lot more plausible than this dude with 5 years experience being critical to their front office.
   254. Blastin Posted: October 23, 2019 at 03:26 PM (#5893527)
I wouldn't be shocked if Luhnow and Crane have done or said worse, and they're afraid Taubman airs their dirty laundry if fired. Seems a lot more plausible than this dude with 5 years experience being critical to their front office.


Well, Crane having said terrible things is in evidence here in this thread.
   255. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 03:50 PM (#5893534)
Well, Crane having said terrible things is in evidence here in this thread.

Yes. That stuff in [251] is appalling.
   256. JAHV Posted: October 23, 2019 at 04:00 PM (#5893540)
I don't trust Luhnow's judgement one bit. A person with good judgement fired this guy days ago.


Morally? Ethically? Even from a business perspective? Absolutely. But (and please don't construe this as me defending any of the decisions he's made), he's built a really darned good baseball team, and part of that is hiring and promoting smart a-holes who know baseball.

You can question all you want how valuable this guy is that the Astros would keep him around after such a publicly stupid bit of jackassery. But it seems likely to me that 1) Luhnow thinks this guy is valuable to their baseball operations and 2) because of 1, Luhnow simply doesn't care. That's certainly how he's operated the team. That seems much more likely to me than Luhnow being afraid of whistle-blowing if this guy is sent packing. As we've seen, there are already plenty of documented instances of the Astros ownership and front office being ruthless a-holes and they're still around.
   257. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: October 23, 2019 at 04:00 PM (#5893541)

Well, Crane having said terrible things is in evidence here in this thread.


"What we really don't know is the intent behind the inappropriate comments he made. We may never know that because the person who said them and the people who heard them at least up to this point have different perspectives"

/s
   258. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 04:07 PM (#5893543)
Morally? Ethically? Even from a business perspective? Absolutely. But (and please don't construe this as me defending any of the decisions he's made), he's built a really darned good baseball team, and part of that is hiring and promoting smart a-holes who know baseball.

I just don't think that smart guys who know baseball are all that scarce. I mean, they plucked this very guy out of an investment bank 5 years ago. There are probably 10,000 guys just like him. We're not talking about someone with decades of experience evaluating talent.
   259. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: October 23, 2019 at 04:18 PM (#5893546)
258--absolutely. And if you include women that number triples. No offense to my gender but there are so many more educated and talented women than men available it's insane.
   260. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 04:30 PM (#5893549)
258--absolutely. And if you include women that number triples. No offense to my gender but there are so many more educated and talented women than men available it's insane.

Well, if you're looking at those who are willing to take a pay cut to work in baseball, it's going to skew male. I mean, I love baseball, but I would not take a pay cut to work in baseball.

And 2:1 is probably an overstatement. Among the youngest working demographic it might be 60:40. I think that's the ratio of women to men in college graduates. At the elite schools, it's much closer to 50:50.
   261. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 04:43 PM (#5893552)
I think it's the cocky/invulnerable thing, and Crane and Luhnow are probably ######## just like Taubman. They literally think he did nothing wrong.

This. Occam's Razor. And they won't let some SJWs in the press tell them what to do.
   262. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 04:46 PM (#5893553)
And 2:1 is probably an overstatement. Among the youngest working demographic it might be 60:40. I think that's the ratio of women to men in college graduates. At the elite schools, it's much closer to 50:50.

And in math/statistics/similar fields it probably skews more male. Not that these jobs require that heavy a quantitative background.
   263. JAHV Posted: October 23, 2019 at 05:03 PM (#5893561)
I just don't think that smart guys who know baseball are all that scarce. I mean, they plucked this very guy out of an investment bank 5 years ago. There are probably 10,000 guys just like him. We're not talking about someone with decades of experience evaluating talent.


I don't think this is true. I think there are 10,000+ people who think they could be the next Brandon Taubman in terms of taking their intelligence and applying it to running an organization instead of whatever it is they are doing. But I doubt that 10,000 would actually succeed there in the same way Taubman has. Luhnow has found someone who has impressed him and is obviously a cultural fit, as disgusting as that culture might be. Luhnow has also, presumably, spent resources grooming Taubman for the role he's currently in. The time and effort it would take to find a new Taubman and get that person to the same level isn't worth it, even when "it" is regaining public trust and approval by firing a guy who just publicly embarrassed the franchise before the World Series.

Luhnow has a guy who works and the screw up wasn't so egregious (in his eyes) to warrant a change. Yet. Maybe the outcry will get to be so fierce that the Astros or MLB will have to acquiesce. But I think Luhnow is fine with this guy.
   264. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 05:08 PM (#5893563)
I don't think this is true. I think there are 10,000+ people who think they could be the next Brandon Taubman in terms of taking their intelligence and applying it to running an organization instead of whatever it is they are doing. But I doubt that 10,000 would actually succeed there in the same way Taubman has.

I don't doubt it. MLB doesn't have all that great executive/intellectual talent compared to most industries. They don't pay enough at the junior level. I would guess most MLB GMs/Presidents would be no better than middle managers in most industries.
   265. The Duke Posted: October 23, 2019 at 05:17 PM (#5893564)
220. I laughed at this because this is probably Exactly what he really meant
   266. PreservedFish Posted: October 23, 2019 at 06:08 PM (#5893575)
MLB doesn't have all that great executive/intellectual talent compared to most industries. They don't pay enough at the junior level. I would guess most MLB GMs/Presidents would be no better than middle managers in most industries.

This is singularly unconvincing.

I know that you think it's crazy, but many clever young people think that the perks of working at the ballpark and having a nodding acquaintance with Justin Verlander outweigh the extra salary that another large companies would pay. Not all impressive youths follow the money straight out of college. Some make art. Some become academics, scientists, etc. In my experience, the guys that went chasing 7 figures on Wall St and such were certainly not the most talented people I knew. Just because you think it's folly to follow one's passion doesn't mean everyone else does.

Luhnow was not a middle manager. Friedman left the business world just 5 years into his career, but he must've been quite impressive to convince the Rays owner to let him run the damn team, with no experience, at age 28.
   267. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 06:15 PM (#5893577)
(266) it's the law of large numbers. Sure MLB can find a couple of hundred Ivy Leaguers willing to work for peanuts. Big tech firms and banks and consulting firms and even old line industrial firms are hiring hundreds of those people a year, and that's each firm.

The guys who rise to the top out of 5,000 bright people are going to be better than the ones who rise to the top out of 10.

The fact that Friedman could get the job at 28 shows how low the bar is.

I'd give even odds that you're smarter than Taubman.
   268. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 23, 2019 at 06:36 PM (#5893581)
I'd give even odds that you're smarter than Taubman.
I think we've got pretty solid evidence that PF is smarter than Taubman, at least after a few drinks.
   269. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: October 23, 2019 at 06:50 PM (#5893582)
I don't doubt it. MLB doesn't have all that great executive/intellectual talent compared to most industries. They don't pay enough at the junior level. I would guess most MLB GMs/Presidents would be no better than middle managers in most industries.

My guess is that Taubman has significant knowledge of enough proprietary data/operations that Luhnow doesn’t want to fire him and then have him go to work for another team. He wants MLB to make Taubman “untouchable” for every other team before he cuts him loose.
   270. PreservedFish Posted: October 23, 2019 at 06:58 PM (#5893585)
The guys who rise to the top out of 5,000 bright people are going to be better than the ones who rise to the top out of 10.


Well, they'll be better at something. More charismatic, ruthless, selfish, shameless, and psychopathic. Better at the job? Unknown.

I agree that Taubman is unlikely to be a genius. He's just a guy, and there are other guys out there. I just wasn't convinced by the logic of #264.
   271. JAHV Posted: October 23, 2019 at 07:03 PM (#5893586)
The guys who rise to the top out of 5,000 bright people are going to be better than the ones who rise to the top out of 10.


Probably, but I don't think it's that simple. Those people in the pool of 5,000 might want the bigger payday. Those people might not care about baseball or want to apply their skills to baseball. I don't necessarily disagree with your numbers analysis, but I think the conclusion should be the opposite: Luhnow found someone he considers to be perfect for the job out of that smaller pool. It might take him 50 tries before he finds that guy again. So why get rid of him if he doesn't have to?

I'm just speculating in all this, of course. You could be right that Taubman has dirt on the Astros or institutional knowledge that Luhnow is trying to keep around. I just think the most likely explanation is that Luhnow has a guy who's a perfect fit for what he's trying to do (evidenced by Taubman's rapid rise through the organization despite the lack of baseball background) and isn't going to let a silly thing like gross public misogyny take that asset away from him.
   272. JJ1986 Posted: October 23, 2019 at 07:03 PM (#5893587)
Does anyone know what Taubman's role is? Is he a hard data or systems guy? I doubt hes biomechanics or scouting or other development stuff given his background. Or is he just a middle manager who understands enough of everything? I can't imagine he's some kind of great communicator or negotiator.
   273. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: October 23, 2019 at 07:06 PM (#5893588)
Well, if you're looking at those who are willing to take a pay cut to work in baseball, it's going to skew male. I mean, I love baseball, but I would not take a pay cut to work in baseball.


Wait, snapper, are you a woman? If so, I need to seriously revise my stereotypes.
   274. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 07:31 PM (#5893592)
Well, they'll be better at something. More charismatic, ruthless, selfish, shameless, and psychopathic. Better at the job? Unknown.

Well, I don't know why those things would matter any less in MLB than at Google, Goldman, or GE.

I agree that Taubman is unlikely to be a genius. He's just a guy, and there are other guys out there. I just wasn't convinced by the logic of #264.

It certainly wasn't a fully formed thought. I'm just saying if your talent pool is tiny, and constrained by people having to take a big pay cut, odds are you're not going to develop the same quality leaders as companies that are throwing hundred of thousands of dollars at thousands of smart young guys and gals.
   275. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 07:32 PM (#5893593)
Wait, snapper, are you a woman? If so, I need to seriously revise my stereotypes.

Good one.

I will add, my wife makes me look like a flaming liberal.
   276. PreservedFish Posted: October 23, 2019 at 07:54 PM (#5893596)
I'm just saying if your talent pool is tiny, and constrained by people having to take a big pay cut, odds are you're not going to develop the same quality leaders as companies that are throwing hundred of thousands of dollars at thousands of smart young guys and gals.

I don't know if it's really tiny. Let's say there are 200 jobs in baseball ops for ambitious young businessy types. How many similar jobs are there among the Fortune 500 groups, the big consulting firms, accounting, Wall St, etc etc etc? The ratio of job seeker : good job might be even steeper in baseball than elsewhere in the business world. If you go to a good business school and don't suck, you'll get a job offer from a respectable company. These places hire graduates by the damn truckload. They have entire teams that do nothing but go to campuses and recruit. But even a brilliant candidate needs a ton of luck to get one of those 200 baseball jobs, and the hiring standards are probably far more idiosyncratic, and possibly powered to find excellent candidates that don't fit in at a traditional organization.
   277. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 08:24 PM (#5893624)
I don't know if it's really tiny. Let's say there are 200 jobs in baseball ops for ambitious young businessy types. How many similar jobs are there among the Fortune 500 groups, the big consulting firms, accounting, Wall St, etc etc etc? The ratio of job seeker : good job might be even steeper in baseball than elsewhere in the business world. If you go to a good business school and don't suck, you'll get a job offer from a respectable company. These places hire graduates by the damn truckload. They have entire teams that do nothing but go to campuses and recruit. But even a brilliant candidate needs a ton of luck to get one of those 200 baseball jobs, and the hiring standards are probably far more idiosyncratic, and possibly powered to find excellent candidates that don't fit in at a traditional organization.

I'm not saying the pool of applicants is tiny, it's just that each team only employs 5-10 such people. Recruiting is a very inexact science.

If McKinsey is hiring literally 1000 people a year from elite schools and the Astros are hiring 1, McKinsey is going to end up with most of the top talent. Even if the 100 "best recruits" all want to work for the Astros, the odds are still heavily on the 1000 person "field" beating the one person "favorite".

Think of it like the draft. If you have the #1 pick every year, and I have the next 50, I'm going to crush you in talent over the long run.
   278. bookbook Posted: October 23, 2019 at 08:34 PM (#5893643)
They don't think that they're accountable to anyone and believe that they can just make problems disappear by powering through.


I believe that is exactly the lesson of the era that began sometime in 2015. Trump keeps proving it, as do many members of his cabinet, the Democratic Governor of Virginia has proved it. The Astros dickwad doesn't even rate in the current environment.
   279. PreservedFish Posted: October 23, 2019 at 08:35 PM (#5893646)
I don't think anyone was arguing that this doofus was the next Elon Musk. I'm just not convinced that the baseball ops people are necessarily people of middling talent, which is where your argument started.
   280. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 08:42 PM (#5893658)
I don't think anyone was arguing that this doofus was the next Elon Musk. I'm just not convinced that the baseball ops people are necessarily people of middling talent, which is where your argument started.

Not middling talent in the U.S. population, just middling talent among corporate executives. MLB teams are not actually big busineses. All of MLB combined would be around #325 on the Fortune 500. My company is hardly a household name, and we have four times the revenue of all of MLB.
   281. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 23, 2019 at 10:06 PM (#5893708)

I'm pretty sure Elon Musk is not even really the next Elon Musk, at least not in the way you're using the term. I mean, he's clearly got some talent, but I think he's got some of those other qualities cited in #270 driving his success, too.
   282. base ball chick Posted: October 23, 2019 at 10:56 PM (#5893736)
first, i wanna thank all youse males who are disgusted by taubman and his obvious misogyny. especially snapper.

it is also more than obvious that luhnow and crane serously do not care what their pal says or does - outside of murder or kiddie rape - no, take that one back - i remember that kiddie raper they wanted to draft. just like they really REALLY do not care that osuna is a woman beater because who cares if some broad gets her face punched in if the puncher provides value to them, they are gonna make sure that their buddy doesn't have to go.

am not surprised that one of mah own personal friends left the team and got work somewheres else. he's not the kind of guy who would agree with trading for a woman beater.

also, quaker is NOT, and i mean NOT RDP. RDP wouldn't look up some guy's twitter pic and post comments about it. and the writing is all wrong. it is NOT RDP. no way
   283. fran Posted: October 23, 2019 at 11:00 PM (#5893744)
I hoped Verlander would say something before pitching tonight. It does seem like the fates are delivering judgement on the Astros.
   284. The Duke Posted: October 23, 2019 at 11:09 PM (#5893766)
Nats doing their thing again tonight - couldn’t be happier
   285. Srul Itza Posted: October 23, 2019 at 11:09 PM (#5893767)
It is now official: The comments by Taubman have so distracted the team, that they are on the verge of losing the first two games at home.

Karma is a . . . beautiful thing.
   286. base ball chick Posted: October 23, 2019 at 11:18 PM (#5893785)
this is reminding me of the 1990 A's vs reds series when everyone had the A's as heavy favorites

i seriously hope the nats win. only thing i hate more than woman beaters is the males who don't see why anyone is complaining about it - getting their asses handed to them on the shttt filled platter they deserve
   287. Howie Menckel Posted: October 23, 2019 at 11:41 PM (#5893806)
apparently it's true - "Hell Hath No Fury..."
   288. base ball chick Posted: October 24, 2019 at 12:01 AM (#5893820)
dammm straight there boy

and i only left them in the first place - in spite of all the terrible things i learned about crane, because of the DH

i was angry enough when they had brett - the ol wife beater - myers

osuna is worse
   289. Howie Menckel Posted: October 24, 2019 at 12:10 AM (#5893825)
and can confirm with 99.28 pct certainty re RDP - who btw played in this year's BBTF softball game in Central Park (and a lot better than I did) - not being that poster.

and not going into detail regarding his status other than to say that he was clearly..... happy. and good for him.
   290. QLE Posted: October 24, 2019 at 12:15 AM (#5893829)
also, quaker is NOT, and i mean NOT RDP. RDP wouldn't look up some guy's twitter pic and post comments about it. and the writing is all wrong. it is NOT RDP. no way


I can confirm that in a different way- the only other time I've seen Quaker before is in this thread, where he claimed to live in that development the Braves built in Cobb County- I'll leave it to others to ponder if this is telling or not....

   291. Zonk Was In The Loop and Followed POTUS Orders Posted: October 24, 2019 at 08:38 AM (#5893867)
Seems like this WS is destined to end Saturday night, with Osuna giving up a walk-off HR.

Karma is a lady and she's not happy with with the Astros, it appears...
   292. . Posted: October 24, 2019 at 09:13 AM (#5893874)
What possible intent could he have had, given the circumstances? Osuna hadn't just carried the Astros to the pennant and Taubman was crowing about what a great acquisition he was to the whole room. He almost blew the damn game.


We don't really know his "intent" -- whatever that means.(*) I know people really, really want to do the "douchey looking finance bro plus purple bracelet equals per se bad" thing, but nothing is really proven beyond the words he said and the setting in which he said them and the people that were around. He could be a massive misogynist, he could be not a misogynist at all. This episode, like many of these manufactured outrages, isn't anywhere close to a big enough sample to make any kind of serious interpretation.

He said some stuff in the clubhouse with some people around, that's pretty much all we know. Not sure how you'll ever get into his mind, or really why it's even all that relevant. Is the rule that no one can ever say anything positive about a DV guy?(**) Not entirely sure when that rule got passed. Sounds kind of McCann-esque, really.

(*) Most likely his "intent" was to say he was happy the team got Osuna. Typically, rational people assume that people intend to express the thoughts that their words express. It's hard to speak words involuntarily.

(**) Is it ok for him to think positive things about Osuna? Or when Osuna goes to the mound, is he supposed to think that he hopes Osuna gets shelled? Can Cub fans root for Addison Russell to get a hit when he's at the plate? What are the rules here?
   293. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 24, 2019 at 09:14 AM (#5893875)
Karma is a lady and she's not happy with with the Astros, it appears...

Immediately followed by the guy who hit it screaming "I'm so F***ing glad the Astros traded for Osuna!"
   294. jmurph Posted: October 24, 2019 at 09:14 AM (#5893876)
If McKinsey is hiring literally 1000 people a year from elite schools and the Astros are hiring 1, McKinsey is going to end up with most of the top talent. Even if the 100 "best recruits" all want to work for the Astros, the odds are still heavily on the 1000 person "field" beating the one person "favorite".

See to me the obvious implication here is the opposite: McKinsey and their peers are hiring a lot less impressive people than the Astros likely are. I worked for just under 5 years at one of the giant consulting firms (I was not actually a client-facing consultant, this is in no way a humble brag) and we also hired hundreds of 22 year olds per year. Many were great, many others just went to the right schools and had a decent internship before their senior year. Broadly speaking, and I'm certain this is true at McKinsey, too, they think if they get someone in the door that meets those standards, they can train them to think and work the way they want them to.
   295. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 24, 2019 at 09:15 AM (#5893877)
first, i wanna thank all youse males who are disgusted by taubman and his obvious misogyny. especially snapper.

You're very welcome.
   296. Blastin Posted: October 24, 2019 at 09:25 AM (#5893885)
nothing is really proven beyond the words he said and the setting in which he said them and the people that were around.


Um.

"We have no evidence except eyewitnesses and a non-coerced confession."

It doesn't really matter WHY - though, stop being like this, we know why - it matters that he did it.
   297. Blastin Posted: October 24, 2019 at 09:29 AM (#5893889)

Immediately followed by the guy who hit it screaming "I'm so F***ing glad the Astros traded for Osuna!"


I would really like this to happen, though I wonder if it would be more fitting if Osuna just never pitches because the Astros never have a late inning lead.
   298. Blastin Posted: October 24, 2019 at 09:29 AM (#5893890)
You know who's enjoying this? Ken Giles.
   299. . Posted: October 24, 2019 at 09:41 AM (#5893892)
There's no such thing as an "eyewitness" to what's in a person's mind when the person says something. There's also the distinct possibility of bias in the eyewitnesses, given the guy's finance bro douchiness. (I.e., the same kind of bias we see around here)

The "purple bracelet" thing is kind of the giveaway. Big red flag. There isn't a hint of indication the guy even knows what the purple bracelet stands for, and it's bizarre to pretend that everyone in the world goes around knowing the meaning of every symbolic socio-political thing that someone somewhere might display. It's an irrelevant factoid thrown into the mix, and when people start throwing irrelevant factoids into the mix, the bias antenna of rational people start to buzz.

I guess the charge is that he was too positive about a DV guy being on the team, but again, it's a bit unclear when being positive about a DV player became a rule. Maybe it should be a rule, but it clearly isn't. Did Pat Hughes and Ron Coomer denounce DV every time they announced an Addison Russell AB this year? (Hint: they didn't.)

Looks like the rule really is that you can't say something positive about a DV guy while possessing the apparent status as finance bro d$uchebag. But that really isn't a rule, just an anti-finance bro ######### stance -- which is pretty much what's going on here. In the woke world, finance bro ########## MUST by their nature be misogynist. So then everything is interpreted from that biased perspective. It's possible the woke-ians got it right this time; it's also possible they didn't. Their interpretive track record is, to put it charitably, spotty.
   300. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 24, 2019 at 09:45 AM (#5893893)
See to me the obvious implication here is the opposite: McKinsey and their peers are hiring a lot less impressive people than the Astros likely are.

On average, maybe. But in aggregate, they're getting way more talent. Recruiting is a massively inexact science. If you rank 100 candidates 1-100, the #1 may have the best chance of being a great executives, but the odds massively favor one of #2-11 being better.
Page 3 of 4 pages  < 1 2 3 4 > 

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogIs MLB Ready for Robo-Umps and an Automated Strike Zone?
(14 - 8:46am, Nov 22)
Last: Greg Pope

NewsblogColorado School of Mines Talk – Bauer Outage
(24 - 8:42am, Nov 22)
Last: Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB)

NewsblogWhite Sox Sign Yasmani Grandal
(19 - 8:03am, Nov 22)
Last: asinwreck

NewsblogRob Manfred’s plan to destroy minor league baseball
(137 - 7:32am, Nov 22)
Last: McCoy

NewsblogRyan Thibs’ Hall of Fame Tracker
(159 - 6:10am, Nov 22)
Last: TJ

NewsblogOT - NBA Thread, Start of the 2019-2020 Season
(987 - 11:27pm, Nov 21)
Last: aberg

NewsblogOT - November* 2019 College Football thread
(329 - 11:26pm, Nov 21)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogPosnanski: Baseball 100 Rules
(319 - 10:43pm, Nov 21)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogGerardo Parra Signs With Japan’s Yomiuri Giants
(35 - 8:36pm, Nov 21)
Last: The Honorable Ardo

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 11-21-2019
(21 - 8:26pm, Nov 21)
Last: The Honorable Ardo

NewsblogMLB isn’t confident it can produce a consistent ball, leaving GMs to adapt
(21 - 8:13pm, Nov 21)
Last: Zach

NewsblogOT- Soccer Thread- October 2019
(532 - 7:46pm, Nov 21)
Last: frannyzoo

NewsblogWhitewash: Rob Manfred says he doesn’t think sign stealing extends beyond the Astros
(76 - 7:37pm, Nov 21)
Last: Zach

NewsblogStark: Five things to watch on the 2020 Hall of Fame ballot – The Athletic
(1 - 6:19pm, Nov 21)
Last: ajnrules

Hall of Merit2020 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(240 - 3:29pm, Nov 21)
Last: Mike Webber

Page rendered in 0.7104 seconds
46 querie(s) executed