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Tuesday, March 20, 2012

Astros trade Humberto Quintero, Jason Bourgeois to Royals

If you trade me, I will become more powerful than you can ever imagine.

Catcher Humberto Quintero and outfielder Jason Bourgeois have been traded by the Astros to the Royals, the Royals announced Tuesday afternoon.

Earlier in the afternoon, both Quintero and Bourgeois were seen by reporters—including CBSSports.com’s Danny Knobler—saying goodbye to their now-former teammates.

The Astros will receive a minor-league pitcher Kevin Chapman and a minor-league player to be named later.

The Royals had a need at catcher once highly-touted youngster Salvador Perez went down with a knee injury. He could miss the first two months of the 2012 season. Quintero will be competing with Brayan Pena now for time behind the plate.

Quintero, 32, hit .240/.258/.317 with 25 RBI and 22 runs last season in 272 plate appearances for the Astros.

Bourgeois, 30, will provide outfield depth for the Royals behind starters Jeff Francoeur, Lorenzo Cain and Alex Gordon. Bourgeois hit .294/.323/.357 with 31 stolen bases in just 252 plate appearances for the Astros last season, so it’s pretty evident where he’s most valuable.

Chapman, 24, is a 6-foot-4 left-hander who went 1-4 with a 4.94 ERA, 1.44 WHIP and 90 strikeouts in 62 minor-league innings last season, spread across High-A and Double-A.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 20, 2012 at 07:55 PM | 55 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. base ball chick Posted: March 20, 2012 at 09:17 PM (#4085644)
i'm just sick about this trade - 2 cheap major leaguers for a really lousy AA lefty reliever - not even a closer, just some crappy reliever

the astros prefer jack crap cust to bourgeois like WHY? or do those idiots actually think that suddenly jordan brown, travis buck and brad snyder will turn into center fielders who can, like run?

there was so little to look forward to this year and there's even less now
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 20, 2012 at 09:24 PM (#4085648)
The Astros are also getting a PTBNL, which Jeff Luhnow seemed to suggest will be better than Chapman.

As of now, it seems like a good trade in a vacuum for the Royals for the reasons bbc suggests - good defensive, no-hit catcher and a speedster who can play all over the field for a wild, electric-armed minor league lefty reliever. But I'm not really sure how Bourgeois fits on the Royals. The outfield is pretty set on the corners with two guys they hope will play 150 games or so. Lorenzo Cain is a question mark, but he needs to play every day so they can see what they have. Mitch Maier was their fourth OF all season last year, and got just 113 PAs. And the Royals already have a speedster in Jarrod Dyson. Bourgeois is a better hitter sure, but it doesn't seem like he's going to get much chance to hit. So its kinda baffling unless they're planning to flip him (the Nats have been trying to get him for awhile).

People seem to suggest Quintero and Bourgeois are good clubhouse guys? Is this true bbc? Seems like a lot of Astros fans were big fans of the two which seems kinda for two bench players.
   3. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 20, 2012 at 09:33 PM (#4085656)
bbc - this is absolutely a good move for you. Bourgeois is below average, Quintero is not a major league calibre player. Their future is their past - and they ain't got much past. In return, you're getting two prospects - the better of which is reportedly the PTBNL (like a '11 draftee who can't be dealt for a few months).

Quintero's projected OPS+ per ZiPS? 59 (one point above his career average). You don't want him anywhere near the big league team, given your other options behind the plate.
Bourgeois (definitely the more useful of the two)? 81 (look at the near absence of secondary average). He's maybe a 35th percentile major leaguer, given his speed and defense. One of your better options, sadly - but not much better than what will soon be available over the waiver wire - and not worth two prospects.

Chapman's ERA is weirdly high (he did a lot of that in a good pitcher's park too) - but he's a legit prospect, albeit a minor one. Solid stuff, very nice k rate - Sickels suggests that the fb/sl could make him a LOOGY if the control doesn't improve significantly - if it does, he's more than that .... I think that sounds about right.

EDIT: I don't think Cust is long for your roster.
   4. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2012 at 09:54 PM (#4085667)
The only reason I even bother reading about the Astros any more is to be able to carry on conversations with BBC.
   5. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 20, 2012 at 10:13 PM (#4085680)
So, what's their lineup? (ZiPS proj. OPS in parentheses)
I know both those guys are considered hustlers (in the good sense).

Is this the Houston lineup? (ZiPS proj. OPS + defense)
CF Schafer*    67 A54
2B Altuve      98 A
/138
LF J
.Martinez 104 A/146
1B Lee        106 F
/117
3B Wallace
*    97 F/117
RF Bogusevic
*  78 A/106
SS Lowrie
&     89 F/108
C  Snyder      99 A
?
or
C  Castro*     76 V 


Rany J. (Royals fan, B-Pro co-founder), on twitter: "Jeff Luhnow says PTBNL will be a “key component” of the deal. I think I’m going to be ill."
   6. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 20, 2012 at 10:29 PM (#4085686)
You know, to tie in with the Damon thread - he'd certainly help this lineup, though I'm not sure if it makes sense to move Martinez to right.
   7. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: March 20, 2012 at 10:42 PM (#4085692)
I don't get this trade, even with AG #1F's explanation. This is like winning a "trade" of STDs.

"Hey, you gave me ebola, but I gave you AIDS! Nah-nah-neh-nah-nah!!!"
   8. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 20, 2012 at 10:51 PM (#4085697)
Not sure how Chapman (BAs' #18 prospect** on the Royals, which translates to about 8th* for HOU) is an STD. More like a peck on the cheek from a cute girl. Could turn into more... but, at minimum, not a bad thing. Plus, another girl is on the way!


* as guesstimated via their new grading system - he's a 50/Med).
** mind you, I think this is a bit too high
   9. flournoy Posted: March 20, 2012 at 11:16 PM (#4085703)
Der K, I think Jimmy Paredes is the frontrunner for the third base job, maybe with Chris Johnson mixed in there. I don't think Brett Wallace is a third base candidate anymore.
   10. tshipman Posted: March 20, 2012 at 11:28 PM (#4085706)
Is this the Houston lineup? (ZiPS proj. OPS + defense)


Wow. That's a below average lineup everywhere except Catcher and SS, right? and below average at SS when you consider defense. Damn.
   11. Chicago Joe Posted: March 20, 2012 at 11:31 PM (#4085708)
Jason Bourgeois just didn't have the gritty, working-class appeal the Astros desired.
   12. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 20, 2012 at 11:45 PM (#4085713)
Thanks - wasn't sure if it was Johnson (righty, 88 ops+, A/150 defense) or Wallace (or Paredes, but I don't see Luhnow keeping him in the bigs. His bat has no business there currently but he has enough potential that he should be starting in the minors. You know, his ZiPS line is about identical to their Rule 5 pick, Marwin Gonzalez (less walks, more pop)).

tshipman - yup. The only position player in the organization who projects to be above average is a guy coming off a major injury, who may not start.
   13. base ball chick Posted: March 20, 2012 at 11:49 PM (#4085715)
AG1F - yeah, Q was a fan fave (snap throws to first) and bourgy is a homie who finally got a chance at age 29. got NO idea why on earth the royals want him. also got NO idea why on earth they have let lorenzo cain rot. i heard tell they were both great clubhouse guys. bougy is an all around nice person

der k

a good trade for the astros is not 2 major leaguers - and quintero is a perfectly serviceable backup catcher and is better than some of em floating around - and bourgeois is a perfectly good 4th OF who can play all 3 positions well AND run. chapman is a crap LOOGY with a 5.0 ERA in the LOW minors - that is not MY idea of future. you don't trade major leaguers for A ball LOOGYs. why the heck he's a number 18 prospect i got no idea unless he's got a great ass or something. got no idea who is the PTBNL

lineup i'm sure of:

C: jason castro/chris snyder
1B: clank lee (unless they can somehow manage to dump him)
2B: jose altuve
SS: jed lowrie
3B: (up in the air - paredes sucks with bat, legs and glove, luhnow is madly in luuuvvv with brett wallace but he moves like mo vaughn, and chris johnson is big time on the trade block - even after all that free work he did for the stros all winter)
CF: mary jane schafer

LF - it SHOULD be JD martinez but for some reason i do not get, it's up in the air - why on earth they'd prefer jack cust i do NOT know (substitute travis crap buck or brad crap snyder or jordan crap brown) JD martinez is the best hitter on this suck team by FAR

RF - it SHOULD be brian bogusevic, who is unfortunately struggling this spring, but i hear tell that luhnow prefers travis suck or snyder

they now have no OF who are rightys
   14. Dale Sams Posted: March 20, 2012 at 11:50 PM (#4085717)
Lowrie is going to the All-Star game!! Mark my words!
   15. base ball chick Posted: March 20, 2012 at 11:52 PM (#4085719)
you do know they signed cust to a major league contract with an option, right? he hasn't hit a single ball solidly yet

JD martinez is NOT coming off a major injury
   16. base ball chick Posted: March 20, 2012 at 11:54 PM (#4085722)
dale

well SOMEbody gots to go. me, i'm hoping that bogusevic tears it up - after being so solidly and thoroughly effed by the astros for so many years. and he's a really good fielder and baserunner, too

IF they don't eff JD martinez i think that boy is gonna really hit for average and pwoer

jed lowrie is gonna be on the DL as usual and we're gonna be playing angel sanchez or marwin gonzalez or something
   17. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 21, 2012 at 01:11 AM (#4085735)
bbc: Quintero is waaaay worse than Snyder. He's worse than Castro. He's worse than Powell, already on a minor league contract. That other guy? Quintero's worse than him too. He's bad, real bad. Career WAR: 0.1
Basically, he's been about as valuable for you as J.R. Towles, which is to say that he isn't.
He's nice to have around in AAA, with the plus defense and all. But, you owed him a mil and he had no minor league options - now KC owes him. You're ahead of the game simply in getting rid of him.

How good Bourgeois is depends on your assessment of his defense. If it's consistent w/ ZiPS (good range in the corners, average in center) - he's a below average, though legit, fourth outfielder (career OPS+ of 74, by the way - same as Cecil Espy or Herm Winningham. Don Kelly, though Kelly's a more legit infielder). For him to be a real asset beyond that, you need a Willie Harris situation, where it looks like he's playing close to Gold Glove type defense in the outfield. Which is possible - he's fast and put up strong defensive numbers in his limited big league runs - but that's inconsistent with what I'd read about him over the years.

Bogusevic sucks too. I believe the three years of minor league data (09-11) that say he can't hit over the strong 182 PA he put up for you (late start to his career or not).
So does Schafer, but we all know that already.

I don't think Martinez is ever going to be much more than an average player, but he's a start and youneverknow.

The Cust deal (600k) is non-guaranteed, the option is a club option (1M) - not a player one. I'm betting he's not making the club - they're seeing what he can do - it's ST.

Chapman: why are you getting hung up on reliever ERA? I think there's reason to be concerned as to why his H/9 is as high as it is given his K rate + why did he give up so many HR (5) in AA, given that he's a groundballer. I'm not sure why BA is so high on him either, but he's drawn attention from lots of folks and for good reason.
   18. TwoFiveFourSix Posted: March 21, 2012 at 01:40 AM (#4085738)
Bogusevic sucks too. I believe the three years of minor league data (09-11) that say he can't hit over the strong 182 PA he put up for you (late start to his career or not).

Why acknowledge the late start and then dismiss it? Bogusevic is still a long shot to be a second division Major League outfielder, but there's more hope for growth than with the typical player his age. I'm glad he plays for Houston. As dim as their prospects for the coming season are he could be given the time to find out if he has anything more to offer. I wouldn't totally write off either Bogusevic or someone like Will Venable. They're good athletes who might never refine their skill, but easier to refine skill that develop athleticism.

Back to the trade, I like it. The lower the level, the less important the numbers. A lefty with a good fastball and slider who underperforms his FIP early on is still an interesting prospect and the loss of Quintero is addition by subtraction given he's on the wrong side of 30 and Houston has players of comparable overall value still on their roster. Hopefully the PTBNL is a 2011 draftee who makes the trade notably better.
   19. TerpNats Posted: March 21, 2012 at 01:43 AM (#4085739)
Jason Bourgeois just didn't have the gritty, working-class appeal the Astros desired.
But will he have sufficient discreet charm for Kansas City?
   20. Tricky Dick Posted: March 21, 2012 at 08:03 AM (#4085767)
Der K, I think Jimmy Paredes is the frontrunner for the third base job, maybe with Chris Johnson mixed in there. I don't think Brett Wallace is a third base candidate anymore.


I think the 3d base competition is wide open, and it could be any combination of Wallace, Johnson, or Paredes. My best guess is that Paredes ends up in AAA. If both Wallace and Johnson make the 25 man, I think a platoon is possible. Wallace has looked OK at 3d base this spring, and his bat has gotten hot of late in the spring. Luhnow drafted Wallace and he still has some confidence in him.

I like the trade fine for the Astros. Nothing against Bourgeois and Quintero, who are perfectly good role players and solid characters on top of everything. But a 30 and a 32 year old back up player are not that valuable to a rebuilding team like the Astros. Both players were likely headed to waivers at the end of spring training, and probably would have been lost for nothing. Quintero is a very good defensive catcher, and I think Royals' fans will like that part of his game.

Jordan Schafer has been one of the best players in spring camp (.381, .481, .522), hitting well, taking walks, stealing bases, playing good defense in CF. Sure that may be a spring training mirage, but it makes perfect sense to find out if a 24 year old can play CF instead of a 30 year old Quad-A player. Here is a recent article about Schafer, by the way.

As for Jack Cust, it's doubtful he makes the 25 man roster. At best, I think he ends up in AAA. To this point, he hasn't played in the outfield due to a sore elbow.
   21. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 21, 2012 at 08:15 AM (#4085774)
Bogusevic - even crediting him for the late start (which I do), I still don't think he's worth it. Hitting well enough to be a big league RF is tough sledding and he's slugged under .400 in the PCL (where the league slugged .448 last year) over a 2.5 year span. Too bad he can't Kieschnick.
I do like Venable, however.

I don't trade for Schafer in the first place but - if I'm Luhnow inheriting him, I probably give him a shot, given my other options.
   22. oscar madisox Posted: March 21, 2012 at 09:05 AM (#4085793)
Everything Tricky Dick writes in #20 is spot on. There's no downside to this trade for the Astros. With the Powell signing Q was as good as gone. With the emergence of Shaefer, there's no need for Bourgeois. Chapman and another prospect are a good haul for two players who probably wouldn't have contributed anything in 2012.

   23. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 21, 2012 at 09:13 AM (#4085798)
Jordan Schafer has been one of the best players in spring camp (.381, .481, .522), hitting well, taking walks, stealing bases, playing good defense in CF. Sure that may be a spring training mirage, but it makes perfect sense to find out if a 24 year old can play CF instead of a 30 year old Quad-A player. Here is a recent article about Schafer, by the way.

Schafer was a pretty big time prospect at one point (BA #25 in 2008). A team in Houston's situation has to give a guy like him 500 PAs to see if he can put it together.
   24. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 21, 2012 at 09:16 AM (#4085804)
With the emergence of Shaefer...


Please refresh my memory: What, exactly, did he "emerge" as?
   25. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 21, 2012 at 09:28 AM (#4085812)
Please refresh my memory: What, exactly, did he "emerge" as?

Having more potential than the sucky alternatives?
   26. Zach Posted: March 21, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4085966)
I probably wouldn't have made this trade last week, but with Perez out indefinitely, Quintero will go directly into the lineup.

In a vacuum I'd rather have the prospect, but it's foolish to get so attached to prospects that you'd rather let a major hole in the major league fester rather than let go of a minor league reliever.
   27. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 21, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4085983)
Having more potential than the sucky alternatives?


And what evidence is there that this is true?
   28. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 21, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4085986)
Catcher Humberto Quintero and outfielder Jason Bourgeois have been traded by the Astros to the Royals, the Royals announced Tuesday afternoon.

If you are going to make up fake trades, at least use real names. /Francesa
   29. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 21, 2012 at 12:45 PM (#4085989)
I just took at look at the picture I posted at the top of this and the lineup...wow...that is bad.
   30. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 21, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4086034)
You know, to tie in with the Damon thread - he'd certainly help this lineup

Houston Astros: Milking the drive for 3000 hits by over the hill players since 2006.
   31. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 21, 2012 at 01:33 PM (#4086055)

And what evidence is there that this is true?


He was once a top-50 prospect, and he's hitting well this spring. That's damning with faint praise, but it's a lot more than most of the Houston roster has going for it.
   32. Too Much Coffee Man Posted: March 21, 2012 at 02:17 PM (#4086110)
I have Cain as a keeper on 2 of my sim teams; I thought last year there was no way they'd keep him in the minors all year and let Melky play CF. I have this bad feeling that Bourgeois starts in CF and plays at least half the year there.
   33. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 21, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4086167)
Hmmm. My auto-drafted fantasy roster is remarkably slow afoot. Bourgeois was still available yesterday as a free agent.

Hmmm.
   34. base ball chick Posted: March 21, 2012 at 10:36 PM (#4086452)
quintero is not a great catcher, he's a perfectly cromulent backup. he hits like every other shtty ML backup - what you are expecting david ross? plz

schafer was a prospect FOUR years ago in freaking A ball. FOUR years ago - he might could be good but because he was a prospect four YEARS ago? plz

and all this for a piece of crap LOOGY in A ball? the guy has a 5 ERA in a PITCHERS' park fer chrissakes

not that i am saying that quintero is all that because he isn't. but unlike castro he can at least CATCH the damm ball

the astros don't have anyone left on their shtt list of crappy OF retreads who can either hit righty or play CF - and when they trade bogusevic - which it looks like they're gonna do - it will be mary jane or jack shuck and that is IT because we all know cust/buck/snyder/brown can't

unless you're picturing second baseman brain bixler out there or thinking that george is gonna springer up from rookie league

i can handle they got traded. but not for some crappy low minor loogy - you DO know they don't even use him as a closer, right?
   35. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 21, 2012 at 11:04 PM (#4086473)
As BA noted, Quintero has the 4th worst OPS+ of any catcher w/ 1000 PA over the last decade (65 qualify). (Ahead of Mathis, Einar Diaz, and Jeff Bako - the latter two are out of pro ball). Yeah, Quintero can defend - that's what brought his WAR up to near zero, rather than being negative.
I know Astros fans are accustomed to backstops who can't hit (hi Brad) but the threshold for the position is a little higher than putrid. This is where I'd cite some of the freely available catchers with better bats you could've had instead of HQ (like Paulino) except that... you didn't need one anyway - Castro or Snyder weren't getting beaten out by the garbage pail kids - what were you going to do with Quintero anyway?

you DO know they don't even use him as a closer, right?

1. Not exactly how the minors work - emphasis is development, not outcomes. Truthfully, being a minor league closer isn't always a good thing - a disproportionate number of pitchability guys with insufficient stuff end up in that role. (this is a function of org philosophy, among other things)
2. He actually led Wilmington in saves .... with seven (the AA team leader had only eight) - so it's not like he didn't close some anyway.
3. Regardless, you're acquiring him for what he can be - not what he is. Nobody (you excluded) seems to think that he can't contribute at the big league level, even if his making it isn't guaranteed.
4. In any case, he's supposedly the lesser part of your haul (as opposed to the PTBNL) - and I'd rather have Chapman over Bourgeois and Quintero in my org if I'm Houston this year.

McTaggart's got a roster projection... Johnson at third, Castro behind the plate, Bogusevic in right, Martinez in left. No Cust. About what you'd expect...
   36. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: March 21, 2012 at 11:05 PM (#4086474)
bbc is acting like this team is going to win 58 games! This is clearly a 65 win team. Why so negative?

I agree with the people who think this deal is fine for the Stros. I mean it's certainly not bad.
   37. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 21, 2012 at 11:15 PM (#4086483)
What gets me is that she seems to have aligned with some of the "wrong" players. Old, bad, and scrappy. She knows better - I think it's Stockholm Syndrome.
   38. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 21, 2012 at 11:32 PM (#4086492)
Mind you, as a Braves fan in the 80's, I'd understand.
   39. base ball chick Posted: March 22, 2012 at 07:55 AM (#4086544)
der K

i'm HOPING that the team wins 58 games

look, i'm not a TOTAL maroon. i know that quintero's bat makes brad ausmus look like brian mccann. i have always been, uh, mystified about the huge amount of crazy luuuuvvvv he got from the Organization for so many years. he's also not good at framing pitches, arm or no arm

but fact is that he IS good enough to be a major league backup.

i don't have any problem with the Organization dumping him - well, excepting the fact that there is zero organizational depth at catcher, unless chris wallace tearrs it up, and if/when snyder gets hurt and or castro, as usual, can't hit - and you thought quintero was bad - all we got left is corporan. who makes quintero look good

AND i expect something better than a crappy low minor LOOGY - and let's not bullstuff me about oooooooooooh this loogy gots all these strikeouts in a PITCHERS park - ignore his lousy WHIP, by the way

but gifting them with bourgeois - someone the team really DOES need?

and yeah, maybe it is a little racist - i mean, he is the last brotha...

and i really REALLY hope chris johnson makes it at third - i always root for the guys the Organization doesn't like and doesn't want to succeed

oh yeah - about who will DEFINITELY make the team?

guaranteed jose altuve - he's all OVAH the rootrootroot promos
   40. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 22, 2012 at 10:57 AM (#4086625)
58 wins might be a good goal; I'm feeling for you this year.
More importantly, I *know* you're not a maroon - if thought you were, I'd've dropped this awhile back.

Q: not sure what else I can say here. Do you think he's one of the top 60 catchers in org ball? Top 75?
I don't - as evidenced by his replacement level play. Going into the season, I thought you'd either cut him and eat the salary or flip him to somebody in dire straits. You lucked out - plan b took the day.
Btw, you also have Powell from OAK, who you can stick in AAA, unlike Q.

B: I do feel like I've given him short shrift - he was one of your three best of, IMO, though that says more about the other guys... I've seen other people saying that he might not have made the team - but I have to think he'd've beat out Shuck, for instance. That said - If his ceiling is subpar 4th OF - wouldn't you rather have a prospect than that? JB wasn't going to make you much better today or in the future.

Chapman: would it help if I listed successful pitchers w bad minor league ERAs? (btw, I did mention his high babip, didn't I? Worries me more in the minors than in the bigs.)
Given that pitchers can and do come out of nowhere, I get being unimpressed by this guy, but you can use every young potentially above avg body you can get, right - even future LOOGYs?

Still, I can see an argument why bourgeois is more valuable than chapman (particularly in the abstract, as opposed to for HOU)... but you're getting another dude...

**
As for issues of race, I can dig that. It's just separate from "what should they do".

How much turnover has the org had in the last yr? (coach/mgmt wise). I don't see much difference in any of your 3b types myself - Johnson or Wallace or a combo makes sense to me.

Everybody likes Altuve, right?
   41. JPWF1313 Posted: March 22, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4086656)
I have Cain as a keeper on 2 of my sim teams; I thought last year there was no way they'd keep him in the minors all year and let Melky play CF. I have this bad feeling that Bourgeois starts in CF and plays at least half the year there.


Lorenzo Cain has hit .305/.377/.476 in AAA

However, Cain has done that in a .285/.357/.446 league context

Cain's home park has a run multiplier of .99 (essentially neutral)

So Cain's AAA OPS+ has been: 113
His MLE is about a 90 I'd say. (Edit: ZiPS has him for an 86 in 2012)
Bourgeois had an 89 last year.

In 2010 Bourgeois hit .345/.405/.477 in AAA (league .277/.348/.432) so OPS+ 127
In 2009 Bourgeois hit .316/.354/.401 in AAA (league .272/.341/.418) so OPS+ 100

Acquiring Bourgeois to play ahead of Cain is pointless, but meaningless, Bourgeois = Cain more or less.

Giving up something of value to pay Bourgeois more $ than Cain is somewhat dumb, but hardly a tragedy, Cain is little more than a future Bourgeois like 4th OF even if he catches a break


   42. JJ1986 Posted: March 22, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4086659)
I think Bourgeois is being implicitly underrated here. He's a useful player, especially when two of your starting OFs are young and left-handed. I'd trade him for a good return, but I'd need something for him. Quintero might also be useful to a team with young pitching; but the problem is he has no room on the opening day roster.
   43. JPWF1313 Posted: March 22, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4086665)
To tell the truth, I really cannot see the point of this trade from KC's POV.

1: Why trade for JB when you have LC (and I'm not even an LC fan as you can see)
2: Quintero is an extremely marginal MLB player.

Essentially KC gave up a live arm and a PTBNL who is allegedly the real element in the deal for Houston- for absolutely nothing that improves the on field team in KC one iota.



   44. Zach Posted: March 22, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4086706)
Essentially KC gave up a live arm and a PTBNL who is allegedly the real element in the deal for Houston- for absolutely nothing that improves the on field team in KC one iota.

Well, somebody's got to catch or you get a lot of passed balls. Quintero doesn't have to have a career for KC, he has to be a defensive backup catcher for 50 games or so. It's less clear where Bourgeois fits into the lineup, but he'll probably get his share of playing time, too.
   45. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 22, 2012 at 12:04 PM (#4086712)
1: Why trade for JB when you have LC (and I'm not even an LC fan as you can see)

Why trade for Bourgeois when you have Mitch Maier?

They both project to a .300 wOBA.
   46. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 22, 2012 at 12:14 PM (#4086719)
Well, I went ahead & picked Bourgeois up in hopes that he'll be stealing bases like mad. Dropping Ian Stewart to make room for him didn't exactly pain me. (Unfortunately, I was apparently so delirious that I also accidentally dropped John Buck instead of Nick Hundley, just to remove any doubt that I'm an idiot.) Not that the people I picked up purely for speed last year turned out to be worth a damn (see: Pierre, Juan; Davis, Rajai), so it's not like my hopes are set particularly high in this instance.
   47. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 22, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4086722)
Quintero's bat: This doesn't include defense and, thus, underrates him, but Quintero ranks 135th among players whose principal position is catcher in ZiPS projected 2012 OPS+.

Bourgeois: I have undersold him a bit, but he's coming off a career year.
Here's Dan's projections for Cain and Bourgeois - quick, tell me which guy is which:

.259/.314/.370 in 135 g, 521 ab, 65 r, 135 h, 25 2b, 6 3b, 7 hr, 46 rbi, 35 bb, 122 so, 17 sb, 5 cs, 86 ops+; defense: LF: VG/139, CF: AV/135, RF: VG/139

.273/.311/.351 in 126 g, 388 ab, 50 r, 106 h, 13 2b, 4 3b, 3 hr, 30 rbi, 20 bb, 46 so, 28 sb, 8 cs, 81 ops+; defense: LF: VG/131, CF: AV/221, RF: AV/110,

The top guy is Cain, a 26-year old righty - the bottom is Bourgeois, a 30-year old righty. (projections are for kc and hou respectively, of course)

(If you want a lefty bat - Maier, as mentioned is around too.)
   48. base ball chick Posted: March 22, 2012 at 08:40 PM (#4087136)
der K

is quintero one of the top 60 catchers in MLB? no, i'd put him in the bottom 5 somewheres. it's not like i'm this big quintero fan, and i don't think he's better than snyder unless snyder's back collapses again. however, i don't think that ANY "prospect" is better than a ML catcher. and i don't see anything about chapman that makes me think he's worth a ML player even one of the bottom ones - live arm is not necessarily = good arm. let alone PLUS a perfectly decent 4th OF.

and i can't see playing bourgeois ahead of cain, who in my opinion is going to be one of those guys who coulda been good byt never got a chance. i sure see a lot of those. but i hear tell there were a LOT of teams interested in bougeois and i have this feeling he's gonna be flipped - and unless KC gets something worthwhile for him, i seriously doubt the PTBNL is worht much of anything. you don't trade something really good for quintero

only bright lining is that i just might get to see jack shuck get a ML roster spot - not that he's great, but he's another Original Astro who wasn't expected to succeed, so i gotta root for the boy
   49.     Hey Gurl Posted: March 22, 2012 at 08:53 PM (#4087142)
A 24 year old reliever who was in A/AA last year?! Did they have him confused with someone else??
   50. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 22, 2012 at 10:32 PM (#4087208)
Full disclosure: I wrote something, somewhere praising Houston's pickup of Quintero back when (and dump of Redding, who I'd given up on). Though he might post an OPS around 680, not 560.

If Quintero's not one of the best 60, best 75 catchers in MLB - then he's not an MLB caliber catcher, just a guy with a contract and experience. Is he any better than, say, Ivan Rodriguez right now? ZiPS suggests not, Davenport suggests not - yet he's freely available and reportedly cheap.

Also, Corporan is another guy rated higher than Quintero by ZiPS offensively (OPS+ of 66, as opposed to 59). Note: it's close and some other projection systems disagree.

I don't think Bourgeois will play ahead of Cain either - just noting their similarities. Also, the PTBNL is probably "mostly" for JB, not Quint.

Not keen on Shuck - strikes me as an org player who has gotten a few breaks. Is he any better than say, Cleveland's Jordan Henry? (If you say 'who?', that illustrates my point.)

   51. JJ1986 Posted: March 27, 2012 at 09:56 AM (#4089978)
Astros release Cust and Zach Duke.
   52. Mike Emeigh Posted: March 27, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4090036)
Bourgeois can also play 2B passably, which probably allowed the Royals to option Johnny Giavotella to AAA.

I think for KC this was more about being unhappy with their major-league ready depth, especially from the right side. Their lineup has a decided left-handed tilt, especially with Getz the apparent winner of the 2B job, and even the depth guys were mostly left-handed. Bourgeois offers insurance against Cain not being completely ready, Quintero gives them a right-handed option to Pena (who is a much better hitter from the left side), and they're not giving up a whole lot.

-- MWE
   53. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 27, 2012 at 11:15 AM (#4090091)
Didn't Cust sign a MLB deal? Is it guaranteed money?
   54. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 27, 2012 at 11:24 AM (#4090111)
Cust's deal was non-guaranteed.

Bourgeois can also play 2B passably
Do you think so? He's played 10 innings there over the last three years and even before then his numbers were pretty bad at the position.

I think for KC this was more about being unhappy with their major-league ready depth, especially from the right side.
Agreed.
   55. Mike Emeigh Posted: March 27, 2012 at 11:34 AM (#4090125)
Do you think so?

Well, I thought he was the times I saw him play there in '07. But that was several years ago, to be sure.

-- MWE

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