If you trade me, I will become more powerful than you can ever imagine.
Catcher Humberto Quintero and outfielder Jason Bourgeois have been traded by the Astros to the Royals, the Royals announced Tuesday afternoon.
Earlier in the afternoon, both Quintero and Bourgeois were seen by reporters—including CBSSports.com’s Danny Knobler—saying goodbye to their now-former teammates.
The Astros will receive a minor-league pitcher Kevin Chapman and a minor-league player to be named later.
The Royals had a need at catcher once highly-touted youngster Salvador Perez went down with a knee injury. He could miss the first two months of the 2012 season. Quintero will be competing with Brayan Pena now for time behind the plate.
Quintero, 32, hit .240/.258/.317 with 25 RBI and 22 runs last season in 272 plate appearances for the Astros.
Bourgeois, 30, will provide outfield depth for the Royals behind starters Jeff Francoeur, Lorenzo Cain and Alex Gordon. Bourgeois hit .294/.323/.357 with 31 stolen bases in just 252 plate appearances for the Astros last season, so it’s pretty evident where he’s most valuable.
Chapman, 24, is a 6-foot-4 left-hander who went 1-4 with a 4.94 ERA, 1.44 WHIP and 90 strikeouts in 62 minor-league innings last season, spread across High-A and Double-A.
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1. base ball chick Posted: March 20, 2012 at 09:17 PM (#4085644)the astros prefer jack crap cust to bourgeois like WHY? or do those idiots actually think that suddenly jordan brown, travis buck and brad snyder will turn into center fielders who can, like run?
there was so little to look forward to this year and there's even less now
As of now, it seems like a good trade in a vacuum for the Royals for the reasons bbc suggests - good defensive, no-hit catcher and a speedster who can play all over the field for a wild, electric-armed minor league lefty reliever. But I'm not really sure how Bourgeois fits on the Royals. The outfield is pretty set on the corners with two guys they hope will play 150 games or so. Lorenzo Cain is a question mark, but he needs to play every day so they can see what they have. Mitch Maier was their fourth OF all season last year, and got just 113 PAs. And the Royals already have a speedster in Jarrod Dyson. Bourgeois is a better hitter sure, but it doesn't seem like he's going to get much chance to hit. So its kinda baffling unless they're planning to flip him (the Nats have been trying to get him for awhile).
People seem to suggest Quintero and Bourgeois are good clubhouse guys? Is this true bbc? Seems like a lot of Astros fans were big fans of the two which seems kinda for two bench players.
Quintero's projected OPS+ per ZiPS? 59 (one point above his career average). You don't want him anywhere near the big league team, given your other options behind the plate.
Bourgeois (definitely the more useful of the two)? 81 (look at the near absence of secondary average). He's maybe a 35th percentile major leaguer, given his speed and defense. One of your better options, sadly - but not much better than what will soon be available over the waiver wire - and not worth two prospects.
Chapman's ERA is weirdly high (he did a lot of that in a good pitcher's park too) - but he's a legit prospect, albeit a minor one. Solid stuff, very nice k rate - Sickels suggests that the fb/sl could make him a LOOGY if the control doesn't improve significantly - if it does, he's more than that .... I think that sounds about right.
EDIT: I don't think Cust is long for your roster.
I know both those guys are considered hustlers (in the good sense).
Is this the Houston lineup? (ZiPS proj. OPS + defense)
CF Schafer* 67 A/ 542B Altuve 98 A/138
LF J.Martinez 104 A/146
1B Lee 106 F/117
3B Wallace* 97 F/117
RF Bogusevic* 78 A/106
SS Lowrie& 89 F/108
C Snyder 99 A?
or
C Castro* 76 V
Rany J. (Royals fan, B-Pro co-founder), on twitter: "Jeff Luhnow says PTBNL will be a “key component” of the deal. I think I’m going to be ill."
"Hey, you gave me ebola, but I gave you AIDS! Nah-nah-neh-nah-nah!!!"
* as guesstimated via their new grading system - he's a 50/Med).
** mind you, I think this is a bit too high
Wow. That's a below average lineup everywhere except Catcher and SS, right? and below average at SS when you consider defense. Damn.
tshipman - yup. The only position player in the organization who projects to be above average is a guy coming off a major injury, who may not start.
der k
a good trade for the astros is not 2 major leaguers - and quintero is a perfectly serviceable backup catcher and is better than some of em floating around - and bourgeois is a perfectly good 4th OF who can play all 3 positions well AND run. chapman is a crap LOOGY with a 5.0 ERA in the LOW minors - that is not MY idea of future. you don't trade major leaguers for A ball LOOGYs. why the heck he's a number 18 prospect i got no idea unless he's got a great ass or something. got no idea who is the PTBNL
lineup i'm sure of:
C: jason castro/chris snyder
1B: clank lee (unless they can somehow manage to dump him)
2B: jose altuve
SS: jed lowrie
3B: (up in the air - paredes sucks with bat, legs and glove, luhnow is madly in luuuvvv with brett wallace but he moves like mo vaughn, and chris johnson is big time on the trade block - even after all that free work he did for the stros all winter)
CF: mary jane schafer
LF - it SHOULD be JD martinez but for some reason i do not get, it's up in the air - why on earth they'd prefer jack cust i do NOT know (substitute travis crap buck or brad crap snyder or jordan crap brown) JD martinez is the best hitter on this suck team by FAR
RF - it SHOULD be brian bogusevic, who is unfortunately struggling this spring, but i hear tell that luhnow prefers travis suck or snyder
they now have no OF who are rightys
JD martinez is NOT coming off a major injury
well SOMEbody gots to go. me, i'm hoping that bogusevic tears it up - after being so solidly and thoroughly effed by the astros for so many years. and he's a really good fielder and baserunner, too
IF they don't eff JD martinez i think that boy is gonna really hit for average and pwoer
jed lowrie is gonna be on the DL as usual and we're gonna be playing angel sanchez or marwin gonzalez or something
Basically, he's been about as valuable for you as J.R. Towles, which is to say that he isn't.
He's nice to have around in AAA, with the plus defense and all. But, you owed him a mil and he had no minor league options - now KC owes him. You're ahead of the game simply in getting rid of him.
How good Bourgeois is depends on your assessment of his defense. If it's consistent w/ ZiPS (good range in the corners, average in center) - he's a below average, though legit, fourth outfielder (career OPS+ of 74, by the way - same as Cecil Espy or Herm Winningham. Don Kelly, though Kelly's a more legit infielder). For him to be a real asset beyond that, you need a Willie Harris situation, where it looks like he's playing close to Gold Glove type defense in the outfield. Which is possible - he's fast and put up strong defensive numbers in his limited big league runs - but that's inconsistent with what I'd read about him over the years.
Bogusevic sucks too. I believe the three years of minor league data (09-11) that say he can't hit over the strong 182 PA he put up for you (late start to his career or not).
So does Schafer, but we all know that already.
I don't think Martinez is ever going to be much more than an average player, but he's a start and youneverknow.
The Cust deal (600k) is non-guaranteed, the option is a club option (1M) - not a player one. I'm betting he's not making the club - they're seeing what he can do - it's ST.
Chapman: why are you getting hung up on reliever ERA? I think there's reason to be concerned as to why his H/9 is as high as it is given his K rate + why did he give up so many HR (5) in AA, given that he's a groundballer. I'm not sure why BA is so high on him either, but he's drawn attention from lots of folks and for good reason.
Why acknowledge the late start and then dismiss it? Bogusevic is still a long shot to be a second division Major League outfielder, but there's more hope for growth than with the typical player his age. I'm glad he plays for Houston. As dim as their prospects for the coming season are he could be given the time to find out if he has anything more to offer. I wouldn't totally write off either Bogusevic or someone like Will Venable. They're good athletes who might never refine their skill, but easier to refine skill that develop athleticism.
Back to the trade, I like it. The lower the level, the less important the numbers. A lefty with a good fastball and slider who underperforms his FIP early on is still an interesting prospect and the loss of Quintero is addition by subtraction given he's on the wrong side of 30 and Houston has players of comparable overall value still on their roster. Hopefully the PTBNL is a 2011 draftee who makes the trade notably better.
I think the 3d base competition is wide open, and it could be any combination of Wallace, Johnson, or Paredes. My best guess is that Paredes ends up in AAA. If both Wallace and Johnson make the 25 man, I think a platoon is possible. Wallace has looked OK at 3d base this spring, and his bat has gotten hot of late in the spring. Luhnow drafted Wallace and he still has some confidence in him.
I like the trade fine for the Astros. Nothing against Bourgeois and Quintero, who are perfectly good role players and solid characters on top of everything. But a 30 and a 32 year old back up player are not that valuable to a rebuilding team like the Astros. Both players were likely headed to waivers at the end of spring training, and probably would have been lost for nothing. Quintero is a very good defensive catcher, and I think Royals' fans will like that part of his game.
Jordan Schafer has been one of the best players in spring camp (.381, .481, .522), hitting well, taking walks, stealing bases, playing good defense in CF. Sure that may be a spring training mirage, but it makes perfect sense to find out if a 24 year old can play CF instead of a 30 year old Quad-A player. Here is a recent article about Schafer, by the way.
As for Jack Cust, it's doubtful he makes the 25 man roster. At best, I think he ends up in AAA. To this point, he hasn't played in the outfield due to a sore elbow.
I do like Venable, however.
I don't trade for Schafer in the first place but - if I'm Luhnow inheriting him, I probably give him a shot, given my other options.
Schafer was a pretty big time prospect at one point (BA #25 in 2008). A team in Houston's situation has to give a guy like him 500 PAs to see if he can put it together.
Please refresh my memory: What, exactly, did he "emerge" as?
Having more potential than the sucky alternatives?
In a vacuum I'd rather have the prospect, but it's foolish to get so attached to prospects that you'd rather let a major hole in the major league fester rather than let go of a minor league reliever.
And what evidence is there that this is true?
If you are going to make up fake trades, at least use real names. /Francesa
Houston Astros: Milking the drive for 3000 hits by over the hill players since 2006.
And what evidence is there that this is true?
He was once a top-50 prospect, and he's hitting well this spring. That's damning with faint praise, but it's a lot more than most of the Houston roster has going for it.
Hmmm.
schafer was a prospect FOUR years ago in freaking A ball. FOUR years ago - he might could be good but because he was a prospect four YEARS ago? plz
and all this for a piece of crap LOOGY in A ball? the guy has a 5 ERA in a PITCHERS' park fer chrissakes
not that i am saying that quintero is all that because he isn't. but unlike castro he can at least CATCH the damm ball
the astros don't have anyone left on their shtt list of crappy OF retreads who can either hit righty or play CF - and when they trade bogusevic - which it looks like they're gonna do - it will be mary jane or jack shuck and that is IT because we all know cust/buck/snyder/brown can't
unless you're picturing second baseman brain bixler out there or thinking that george is gonna springer up from rookie league
i can handle they got traded. but not for some crappy low minor loogy - you DO know they don't even use him as a closer, right?
I know Astros fans are accustomed to backstops who can't hit (hi Brad) but the threshold for the position is a little higher than putrid. This is where I'd cite some of the freely available catchers with better bats you could've had instead of HQ (like Paulino) except that... you didn't need one anyway - Castro or Snyder weren't getting beaten out by the garbage pail kids - what were you going to do with Quintero anyway?
1. Not exactly how the minors work - emphasis is development, not outcomes. Truthfully, being a minor league closer isn't always a good thing - a disproportionate number of pitchability guys with insufficient stuff end up in that role. (this is a function of org philosophy, among other things)
2. He actually led Wilmington in saves .... with seven (the AA team leader had only eight) - so it's not like he didn't close some anyway.
3. Regardless, you're acquiring him for what he can be - not what he is. Nobody (you excluded) seems to think that he can't contribute at the big league level, even if his making it isn't guaranteed.
4. In any case, he's supposedly the lesser part of your haul (as opposed to the PTBNL) - and I'd rather have Chapman over Bourgeois and Quintero in my org if I'm Houston this year.
McTaggart's got a roster projection... Johnson at third, Castro behind the plate, Bogusevic in right, Martinez in left. No Cust. About what you'd expect...
I agree with the people who think this deal is fine for the Stros. I mean it's certainly not bad.
i'm HOPING that the team wins 58 games
look, i'm not a TOTAL maroon. i know that quintero's bat makes brad ausmus look like brian mccann. i have always been, uh, mystified about the huge amount of crazy luuuuvvvv he got from the Organization for so many years. he's also not good at framing pitches, arm or no arm
but fact is that he IS good enough to be a major league backup.
i don't have any problem with the Organization dumping him - well, excepting the fact that there is zero organizational depth at catcher, unless chris wallace tearrs it up, and if/when snyder gets hurt and or castro, as usual, can't hit - and you thought quintero was bad - all we got left is corporan. who makes quintero look good
AND i expect something better than a crappy low minor LOOGY - and let's not bullstuff me about oooooooooooh this loogy gots all these strikeouts in a PITCHERS park - ignore his lousy WHIP, by the way
but gifting them with bourgeois - someone the team really DOES need?
and yeah, maybe it is a little racist - i mean, he is the last brotha...
and i really REALLY hope chris johnson makes it at third - i always root for the guys the Organization doesn't like and doesn't want to succeed
oh yeah - about who will DEFINITELY make the team?
guaranteed jose altuve - he's all OVAH the rootrootroot promos
More importantly, I *know* you're not a maroon - if thought you were, I'd've dropped this awhile back.
Q: not sure what else I can say here. Do you think he's one of the top 60 catchers in org ball? Top 75?
I don't - as evidenced by his replacement level play. Going into the season, I thought you'd either cut him and eat the salary or flip him to somebody in dire straits. You lucked out - plan b took the day.
Btw, you also have Powell from OAK, who you can stick in AAA, unlike Q.
B: I do feel like I've given him short shrift - he was one of your three best of, IMO, though that says more about the other guys... I've seen other people saying that he might not have made the team - but I have to think he'd've beat out Shuck, for instance. That said - If his ceiling is subpar 4th OF - wouldn't you rather have a prospect than that? JB wasn't going to make you much better today or in the future.
Chapman: would it help if I listed successful pitchers w bad minor league ERAs? (btw, I did mention his high babip, didn't I? Worries me more in the minors than in the bigs.)
Given that pitchers can and do come out of nowhere, I get being unimpressed by this guy, but you can use every young potentially above avg body you can get, right - even future LOOGYs?
Still, I can see an argument why bourgeois is more valuable than chapman (particularly in the abstract, as opposed to for HOU)... but you're getting another dude...
**
As for issues of race, I can dig that. It's just separate from "what should they do".
How much turnover has the org had in the last yr? (coach/mgmt wise). I don't see much difference in any of your 3b types myself - Johnson or Wallace or a combo makes sense to me.
Everybody likes Altuve, right?
Lorenzo Cain has hit .305/.377/.476 in AAA
However, Cain has done that in a .285/.357/.446 league context
Cain's home park has a run multiplier of .99 (essentially neutral)
So Cain's AAA OPS+ has been: 113
His MLE is about a 90 I'd say. (Edit: ZiPS has him for an 86 in 2012)
Bourgeois had an 89 last year.
In 2010 Bourgeois hit .345/.405/.477 in AAA (league .277/.348/.432) so OPS+ 127
In 2009 Bourgeois hit .316/.354/.401 in AAA (league .272/.341/.418) so OPS+ 100
Acquiring Bourgeois to play ahead of Cain is pointless, but meaningless, Bourgeois = Cain more or less.
Giving up something of value to pay Bourgeois more $ than Cain is somewhat dumb, but hardly a tragedy, Cain is little more than a future Bourgeois like 4th OF even if he catches a break
1: Why trade for JB when you have LC (and I'm not even an LC fan as you can see)
2: Quintero is an extremely marginal MLB player.
Essentially KC gave up a live arm and a PTBNL who is allegedly the real element in the deal for Houston- for absolutely nothing that improves the on field team in KC one iota.
Well, somebody's got to catch or you get a lot of passed balls. Quintero doesn't have to have a career for KC, he has to be a defensive backup catcher for 50 games or so. It's less clear where Bourgeois fits into the lineup, but he'll probably get his share of playing time, too.
Why trade for Bourgeois when you have Mitch Maier?
They both project to a .300 wOBA.
Bourgeois: I have undersold him a bit, but he's coming off a career year.
Here's Dan's projections for Cain and Bourgeois - quick, tell me which guy is which:
.259/.314/.370 in 135 g, 521 ab, 65 r, 135 h, 25 2b, 6 3b, 7 hr, 46 rbi, 35 bb, 122 so, 17 sb, 5 cs, 86 ops+; defense: LF: VG/139, CF: AV/135, RF: VG/139
.273/.311/.351 in 126 g, 388 ab, 50 r, 106 h, 13 2b, 4 3b, 3 hr, 30 rbi, 20 bb, 46 so, 28 sb, 8 cs, 81 ops+; defense: LF: VG/131, CF: AV/221, RF: AV/110,
The top guy is Cain, a 26-year old righty - the bottom is Bourgeois, a 30-year old righty. (projections are for kc and hou respectively, of course)
(If you want a lefty bat - Maier, as mentioned is around too.)
is quintero one of the top 60 catchers in MLB? no, i'd put him in the bottom 5 somewheres. it's not like i'm this big quintero fan, and i don't think he's better than snyder unless snyder's back collapses again. however, i don't think that ANY "prospect" is better than a ML catcher. and i don't see anything about chapman that makes me think he's worth a ML player even one of the bottom ones - live arm is not necessarily = good arm. let alone PLUS a perfectly decent 4th OF.
and i can't see playing bourgeois ahead of cain, who in my opinion is going to be one of those guys who coulda been good byt never got a chance. i sure see a lot of those. but i hear tell there were a LOT of teams interested in bougeois and i have this feeling he's gonna be flipped - and unless KC gets something worthwhile for him, i seriously doubt the PTBNL is worht much of anything. you don't trade something really good for quintero
only bright lining is that i just might get to see jack shuck get a ML roster spot - not that he's great, but he's another Original Astro who wasn't expected to succeed, so i gotta root for the boy
If Quintero's not one of the best 60, best 75 catchers in MLB - then he's not an MLB caliber catcher, just a guy with a contract and experience. Is he any better than, say, Ivan Rodriguez right now? ZiPS suggests not, Davenport suggests not - yet he's freely available and reportedly cheap.
Also, Corporan is another guy rated higher than Quintero by ZiPS offensively (OPS+ of 66, as opposed to 59). Note: it's close and some other projection systems disagree.
I don't think Bourgeois will play ahead of Cain either - just noting their similarities. Also, the PTBNL is probably "mostly" for JB, not Quint.
Not keen on Shuck - strikes me as an org player who has gotten a few breaks. Is he any better than say, Cleveland's Jordan Henry? (If you say 'who?', that illustrates my point.)
I think for KC this was more about being unhappy with their major-league ready depth, especially from the right side. Their lineup has a decided left-handed tilt, especially with Getz the apparent winner of the 2B job, and even the depth guys were mostly left-handed. Bourgeois offers insurance against Cain not being completely ready, Quintero gives them a right-handed option to Pena (who is a much better hitter from the left side), and they're not giving up a whole lot.
-- MWE
Bourgeois can also play 2B passably
Do you think so? He's played 10 innings there over the last three years and even before then his numbers were pretty bad at the position.
I think for KC this was more about being unhappy with their major-league ready depth, especially from the right side.
Agreed.
Well, I thought he was the times I saw him play there in '07. But that was several years ago, to be sure.
-- MWE
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