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Friday, July 28, 2017

Athletics Stuck On Frazier Or Torres From The Yankees For Gray

Heyman reports.

The Oakland Athletics and New York Yankees aren’t believed close to any deal yet in talks about Sonny Gray, as Oakland is said to have asked for packages that include either outfielder Clint Frazier or shortstop Gleyber Torres, two young players the Yankees have suggested are off-limits.

The A’s, in a deep sellers’ market, have named the very top prospects in talks to this point. From the Brewers, they are believed to like outfielder Lewis Brinson, and from the Braves outfield Ronald Acuna. The Brewers are said to have “backed off” in recent days, while the Braves are thought to be behind in the running.

Jim Furtado Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:17 AM | 168 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: athletics, sonny gray, trade rumors, yankees

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   1. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:28 AM (#5501356)
That's exactly how the A's should be handling trading Sonny Gray.

He's young, he's still under control for a couple more years, and he's made no indication he wants to be traded.

The A's should only deal him if they get something that knocks their socks off.

Just because the baseball analysts want him to be dealt, doesn't mean the A's need to follow through.
   2. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:30 AM (#5501360)
That's exactly how the A's should be handling trading Sonny Gray.

And the Yankees should be telling them to #### off.
   3. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:38 AM (#5501366)
And then everyone will be happy.

Mr. Cashman doesn't have a history of bidding against himself on trades, I don't think he's going to spin off Torres or Frazier for Sonny Gray, a good but not elite pitcher.
   4. Bug Selig Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:40 AM (#5501368)
Yeah - nobody should never trade guys like that. Like the Cubs and Indians didn't.
   5. Lassus Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:44 AM (#5501372)
And the Yankees should be telling them to #### off.

That's the response to a fair offer? That seems about right from the Bronx.
   6. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:44 AM (#5501373)
You trade them for the right player. You don't trade them just because someone asked.

Think the Cubs would want to reconsider their refusal to make Schwarber the centerpiece of the trade?
   7. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:55 AM (#5501376)
Yeah - nobody should never trade guys like that. Like the Cubs and Indians didn't.

The Yankees are not a clear favorite in their league, and are under no particular pressure to win the WS this year.

The Cubs and Indians gave up so much because of their unique franchise circumstances. In a vacuum the Indians paid a lot (but they still have Miller), and the Cubs made a terrible trade.
   8. APNY Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:02 AM (#5501379)
Yankees shouldn't deal either guy and the A's shouldn't take anything less. Both sides are right. Hopefully the Yankees don't blink.
   9. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:47 AM (#5501401)
The Cubs and Indians gave up so much because of their unique franchise circumstances. In a vacuum the Indians paid a lot (but they still have Miller), and the Cubs made a terrible trade.

Not only did the Cubs give up Torres and Warren and McKinney for a three month rental, but Chapman contributed less than nothing to their championship. He was great for the Cubs in the regular season, but so what? They won their division by 17.5 games, and he then did more to try to blow the postseason than save it. It wasn't exactly Epstein's greatest moment.

The Indians had to give up Frazier and 3 others to get Miller, but at least in return they got one of the best all-purpose relievers since the 1970's, not just a one inning only closer.
   10. bfan Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:52 AM (#5501403)
The Braves chasing Sonny Gray is silly. His 2 WAR for this year are worth a lot to a few teams that are fighting for a play-off spot; they mean nothing to Atlanta. So, for starters, if WAR is worth $8 million per, then some team should be willing to pay $16 million of value for that more than Atlanta. If anything, wins for Atlanta pull them lower in the draft order; they have a 2% chance for the play-offs, so go ahead and lose now and get one more good player through the draft, for their next run for success. Atlanta doesn't need to tank, but scratching and clawing and trading away wins in 2018 and beyond (through prospects) to get from 76 wins to 78 wins in 2017 makes no sense.
   11. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:52 AM (#5501404)
I'm not going to really rehash the Chapman trade again, but flags fly forever. In spite of a few high profile blown saves, the Cubs probably don't win without him (and he was definitely not a one inning guy in the playoffs). In fact, in retrospect, perhaps Chapman's most important inning with the Cubs came after one of his worst (9th inning of game 7). It rightfully was overshadowed by his 8th, but it sure felt like the Cubs were going to lose in the 9th there.
   12. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2017 at 10:02 AM (#5501410)
I'm not going to really rehash the Chapman trade again, but flags fly forever. In spite of a few high profile blown saves, the Cubs probably don't win without him (and he was definitely not a one inning guy in the playoffs). In fact, in retrospect, perhaps Chapman's most important inning with the Cubs came after one of his worst (9th inning of game 7). It rightfully was overshadowed by his 8th, but it sure felt like the Cubs were going to lose in the 9th there.

Why wouldn't the Cubs have won without Chapman?

The regular season was already wrapped up long before he got there.

And if he hadn't blown a 3 run lead in game 7 in the first place, that 10th inning rally wouldn't have been necessary.

The bottom line is that he contributed no necessary value to the team that wasn't already there.
   13. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: July 28, 2017 at 10:05 AM (#5501414)
I read the headline and thought "The A's are insisting on Todd Frazier for Sonny Gray?"
   14. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 28, 2017 at 10:12 AM (#5501419)
And if he hadn't blown a 3 run lead in game 7 in the first place, that 10th inning rally wouldn't have been necessary.

His third blown save of the playoffs. I've tried to find his postseason WPA from 2016 to no avail. Even better would be his Championship Probability Added.
   15. Captain Supporter Posted: July 28, 2017 at 10:16 AM (#5501424)
Beane will blink first unless someone else happens to come in with a better offer. The Yankees can just say no, and await events. If they don't get Gray, the world won't end.
   16. Ithaca2323 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 10:37 AM (#5501444)
It's entirely likely that the Cubs didn't need Chapman to win. But they got him, and they won. Yeah, it's an after the fact justification of the deal but that's the only timeline we have, and it's really the only one Cubs fans should care about. As #11 said, FFF
   17. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 28, 2017 at 10:39 AM (#5501447)
Why wouldn't the Cubs have won without Chapman?

I don't care about what he did or didn't do in the regular season, the playoffs were the difference.

Games 1,4 NLDS and Game 5 of the WS (and yes, 9th inning of game 7 after the blown save). The Cubs bullpen was absolutely a mess, and even with the high profile blown saves, he was still *by far* the most (and outside of Montgomery, only) reliable reliever they had*. He pitched 7.2 innings in the WS and had 1 bad inning.

*Rondon got hurt, and still hasn't been the same since. Strop was, and continues to remain, a headcase that is iffy at best in big moments. Edwards has the stuff, but even the pressure got to him and he's the one and only person you can point to and say maybe should have been given more chances in big spots; but even today, they're still working him up to that. So if they didn't get Chapman, they would have had to get someone (and yeah, I wish they had gotten Miller with that package instead; but no, I'm still not ready to give up or wish they'd given up on Schwarber).
   18. rconn23 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5501461)

"That's the response to a fair offer? That seems about right from the Bronx."

Torres or Frazier is not a fair offer for Gray, not with his injury concerns. You trade those players for a durable ace. Gray is very good, but he's not elite. It's not surprising Beane asked for those players, and it's not surprising Cashman said no.
   19. rconn23 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:05 AM (#5501465)
Price is likely heading to the DL with elbow issues. Wonder if they'll try to add another starter now.
   20. Cargo Cultist Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:09 AM (#5501469)
And the Yankees should be telling them to #### off.


Absolutely. #### off and die.
   21. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:16 AM (#5501475)
It's entirely likely that the Cubs didn't need Chapman to win. But they got him, and they won. Yeah, it's an after the fact justification of the deal but that's the only timeline we have, and it's really the only one Cubs fans should care about. As #11 said, FFF

Well, if Cubs fans are satisfied with that deal, that's all that really matters. Any more prospects you don't think you need?
   22. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:19 AM (#5501477)
Price is likely heading to the DL with elbow issues. Wonder if they'll try to add another starter now.

Devers for Gray straight up would seem like a fairminded swap, and if the A's want to sweeten the deal they can throw in Trevor Plouffe.
   23. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:21 AM (#5501478)
Any more prospects you don't think you need?

None left. We will see how that works out for them.
   24. rconn23 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:23 AM (#5501479)
"Devers for Gray straight up would seem like a fairminded swap, and if the A's want to sweeten the deal they can throw in Trevor Plouffe."

I like it! I mean if Gray is apparently worth Torres and Frazier for NY, then Red Sox fans should jump at this.
   25. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:24 AM (#5501481)
The Chapman trade is instructive for reasons other than just the haul the Yankees received. The Cubs were willing to include Torres because they felt he was blocked by the young players they already had at the MLB level. That's not the case with the Yanks, Frazier's play has put him on the verge of winning a starting outfield spot, and Torres might also have been in the Bronx by now if not for his injury. If reports are correct that the Yankees are offering Mateo and Florial, the A's should think carefully. Mateo may be blocked in the Yanks system now, but he's doing very well at AA Trenton and received a rare 80 rating in the speed category. Florial may be even better, although still at low A.

I don't think the Yanks will go much higher than what they've offered, certainly not Frazier or Torres, for good-but-not-great Sonny Gray, and I'll be surprised if another team is willing to part with comparable Crown Jewels.
   26. JJ1986 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:25 AM (#5501483)
The A's would probably have to throw in Jed Lowrie instead unless they trade for Plouffe first.
   27. Darren Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:27 AM (#5501485)
Gray's a 27-year-old starter who's under control for a couple more years. Torres is BA's #3 prospect, a high price to pay. In the offseason, it's a hard no, but in the heat of a pennant race, with your rotation questionable, this is the kind of deal consider making.

Now Frazier is something like a top 50 prospect. That's a perfectly reasonable price for Gray, and might require another minor leaguer or two. Plus the Yanks OF is crowded.

The comps to who these guys were traded for in the past are interesting and enlightening. But what about other bigtime starter traded midseason recently? Compare this to the haul for Drew Pomeranz last year, an "ace" who was questionable for different reasons. He brought back Anderson Espinoza, a top 20 prospect. Quintana returned Jiminez (top 5), Cease (top 100), and more, despite being in the midst of a down year.


My guess is the Yanks are fine with Frazier and are trying to minimize what else they have to give up.
   28. Lassus Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:28 AM (#5501486)
And the Yankees should be telling them to #### off.
Absolutely. #### off and die.


Christ, people, it wasn't like they asked for Judge.
   29. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:33 AM (#5501490)
The A's would probably have to throw in Jed Lowrie instead unless they trade for Plouffe first.

Oops. Okay, make it Rajai Davis instead. He can always make the positional adjustment.
   30. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:35 AM (#5501492)
And the Yankees should be telling them to #### off.
Absolutely. #### off and die.

Christ, people, it wasn't like they asked for Judge.


I can sorta understand the response. It's like being hectored by a panhandler outside of a city-run homeless shelter, loudly demanding that you aren't putting enough of your money in his half-crumpled coffee cup. How much more do you think you deserve, you mooch?

My guess is the Yanks are fine with Frazier and are trying to minimize what else they have to give up.


My guess is Mr. Cashman is true to his word and Frazier won't be dealt. We'll know who is right soon enough.
   31. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:35 AM (#5501493)
Here's the thing, the perceived pressure is on the Yankees because they're chasing a playoff spot and a division. But the A's have an asset that can blow up as soon as his next start. Gray maybe the world's greatest pitcher, but his injury history makes him a frightening gamble. All the talk of an extra years of control is just that. They could be productive years or years spent in rehabbing from surgery or injury. No team should trade their best position prospects for a pitcher with bad injury history. Clint Frazier is producing today for his team. The team he is currently on actually needs his production on the field. Gleyber Torres has a spot in the infield as soon as next spring training. Weakening two spots on your roster for now and the forseeable future for Sonny Gray is a bad deal for the Yankees. So the Yankees should say no, and the Oakland A's should not capitulate on their stance because Sonny Gray is that valuable to the Oakland A's as a trade chip. Both sides can be right without making the other party look like they're being unreasonable.
   32. Darren Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5501497)
My guess is Mr. Cashman is true to his word and Frazier won't be dealt. We'll know who is right soon enough.


Would it help if I pointed you to about 80 times Mr. Cashman said one thing and did another? :) (And Mr. Cashman? Why?)

The Yankees are very good at evaluating their own players and very good at not making foolish trades. If they can get Gray while placing Frazier off limits, it will be very impressive. But it's a completely reasonable request.

Another funny thing about evaluating prospects/trades these days: I have no idea what numbers to look at. Strikeouts used to be the #1 consideration. Now it seems like every guy with K problems in the minors comes to the Majors and figures them out. I just don't know what is going on anymore. It really mirrors our political landscape.
   33. rconn23 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:47 AM (#5501498)
If the A's can get a better offer than Florial and Mateo and other pieces, more power to them. I don't think that's going to happen. It's been said Beane wants a high-ceiling CF prospect. Florial fits that bill.

Gray is an a pretty significant injury risk. Talented, but risky. So a proportional package is two high-ceiling prospects like Mateo and Florial, who are both top 10 in the Yankees system.
   34. Captain Supporter Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:47 AM (#5501499)
The Yankees should be playing the long game here. They are in contention as it is, but they have the makings of a core that could keep them where they belong for quite some time. And Torres and Frazier are part of that. A team like the Cubs went all in last year because they had were desperate to finally win. The Yankees are in a different situation. They should be trying to build another dynasty and that requires keeping all of their key pieces.
   35. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:56 AM (#5501504)
Would it help if I pointed you to about 80 times Mr. Cashman said one thing and did another?

Well, he didn't trade either of those guys for Quintana or Sale. And he knew Pineda was due for surgery when he said no to Quintana.
   36. The Duke Posted: July 28, 2017 at 12:00 PM (#5501509)
If this is what is being discussed for Gray, I'd like to see Cards put michael wacha out there
   37. Darren Posted: July 28, 2017 at 12:10 PM (#5501518)
Why wouldn't the Cubs have won without Chapman?

The regular season was already wrapped up long before he got there.

And if he hadn't blown a 3 run lead in game 7 in the first place, that 10th inning rally wouldn't have been necessary.

The bottom line is that he contributed no necessary value to the team that wasn't already there.


I've had this argument 100 times about the Nomar trade, the Beckett trade, you name it. Once a team wins, every move they made is unquestionable! Even if it was a terrible trade, if the players they got were any good at all, and even if they weren't, the trades had to be made!
   38. asinwreck Posted: July 28, 2017 at 12:31 PM (#5501538)
If this trade happens, the A's need to send Marcus Semien to the Cubs to complete the middle infield carousel.
   39. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: July 28, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5501560)
Chapman's playoff WPA in 2016 was 0.305 over 20 1/3 innings.

For reference, for the 2016 season that WPA per 20.1 IP would have ranked 92nd among relievers with 20 total IP.

Player WPA/20.1 IP
87. Chasen Shreve 0.320
88. Michael Mariot 0.319
89. Ross Stripling 0.318
90. Bryan Shaw 0.317
91. Pedro Baez 0.308
92. Playoffs Chapman 0.305
93. Taylor Rogers 0.288
94. Chris Withrow 0.286
95. Tony Watson 0.285
96. Richard Bleier 0.283
97. Chien-Ming Wang 0.275

   40. Rally Posted: July 28, 2017 at 01:31 PM (#5501578)
I doubt the Cubs win the WS without Chapman. His biggest moment was the 2 2/3 scoreless innings in game 5 to close out a 1 run game. He came into the 7th inning with one out and a runner on second.

They might have closed out the game without him, but that was pretty heroic pitching. His WPA for the game was +.409.
   41. Rally Posted: July 28, 2017 at 01:36 PM (#5501580)
Blame Maddon for wearing Chapman down. After that big effort in game 5, Maddon brings him in for the 7th inning of game 6 with the Cubs leading 7-2. Leaves him in for the 8th, and even starts the 9th before finally going to other relievers.
   42. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 28, 2017 at 01:58 PM (#5501593)
Maddon did not handle the staff well, in my opinion.

However, if the Cubs' needs were better met by two relievers of lesser quality then that also goes to the wisdom of acquiring Mr. Chapman at the price they paid.
   43. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2017 at 02:06 PM (#5501600)
I doubt the Cubs win the WS without Chapman. His biggest moment was the 2 2/3 scoreless innings in game 5 to close out a 1 run game. He came into the 7th inning with one out and a runner on second.

They might have closed out the game without him, but that was pretty heroic pitching. His WPA for the game was +.409.


But then he proceeded to blow what should have been a safe lead in game 7, and the Cubs were fortunate to recover.

Blame Maddon for wearing Chapman down. After that big effort in game 5, Maddon brings him in for the 7th inning of game 6 with the Cubs leading 7-2. Leaves him in for the 8th, and even starts the 9th before finally going to other relievers.

Now that part I completely agree with. OTOH if FFF / All's Well That Ends Well is the trump card that ends all arguments, then Maddon's use of Chapman was just as defensible as Theo's decision to sell the farm to rent him for 3 months.

And if the Cubs hadn't come back to win that game 7, then what would that trade look like today?
   44. Rally Posted: July 28, 2017 at 02:19 PM (#5501612)
But then he proceeded to blow what should have been a safe lead in game 7, and the Cubs were fortunate to recover.


Without Chapman, there probably is no game 7 to worry about.

And if the Cubs hadn't come back to win that game 7, then what would that trade look like today?


Let's say Francisco Lindor take Aroldis deep in the 9th inning of game 7, putting himself right next to Lebron James among Cleveland folk heroes.

I think the narrative in Chicago would be divided:

1. Maddon burned out Chapman for no reason in game 6. They might argue Theo paid an acceptable price, and Chapman was good enough to justify it, but Maddon blew the series by using him when he wasn't needed and had a less than 100% Chapman when he was

2. Chapman is a bum without the intestinal fortitude to do his freaking job. In this case he gets the blame, and by extension so does Theo, because you aren't supposed to trade great prospects for a bum.

3. The team is truly cursed and nothing any of these men could have done would have made the slightest difference.
   45. T.J. Posted: July 28, 2017 at 02:25 PM (#5501622)
As a life-long Cubs fan, I thought and still think the Chapman trade was terrible, a ridiculous overpay for a short-term rental of a player with limited ability to affect games. The Cubs paid way too much for a dirt-bag human being who almost cost them the playoffs at various points. I also think that just about anything was worth it, given the result. I also think that Chapman would have been a lot more effective but for Maddon's mismanagement of him, especially in Games 6 and 7 - how he got through the ninth inning of Game 7, I'll never know. I also think Chapman's performance in Game Five was amazing.

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." - Walt Whitman
   46. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5501631)
But then he proceeded to blow what should have been a safe lead in game 7, and the Cubs were fortunate to recover.

Without Chapman, there probably is no game 7 to worry about.


Well, sure, but you don't win a World Series by winning 2 games.

Let's say Francisco Lindor take Aroldis deep in the 9th inning of game 7, putting himself right next to Lebron James among Cleveland folk heroes.

I think the narrative in Chicago would be divided:

1. Maddon burned out Chapman for no reason in game 6. They might argue Theo paid an acceptable price, and Chapman was good enough to justify it, but Maddon blew the series by using him when he wasn't needed and had a less than 100% Chapman when he was

2. Chapman is a bum without the intestinal fortitude to do his freaking job. In this case he gets the blame, and by extension so does Theo, because you aren't supposed to trade great prospects for a bum.

3. The team is truly cursed and nothing any of these men could have done would have made the slightest difference.


Well, 2 is unfair to Chapman and 3 is just silly, but I think you have to split 1 into two parts. The first part about burnout would've rung true, but if the Cubs don't win the World Series, then it'd be a baseball version of those T-shirts that say "Southeast Asia War Games, 1961-75---Second Place". You'd then be in the position of having surrendered Torres and 2 other prospects (plus Warren**) and getting nothing in return but a pennant you would've won anyway.

** Who I realize stunk up the joint in Chicago, though he's a major part of this year's Yankees bullpen
   47. Ithaca2323 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 03:02 PM (#5501646)
Well, if Cubs fans are satisfied with that deal, that's all that really matters. Any more prospects you don't think you need?

You seem stuck on this "What if history had turned out different?" thing, which is just stupid.

That's relevant for informing future trades, but not meaningful when it comes to caring about past results
   48. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 28, 2017 at 03:30 PM (#5501661)
And the Yankees should be telling them to #### off.
Absolutely. #### off and die.
For some people, there are the Yankees, and 29 other MLB-level farm clubs.
   49. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2017 at 03:34 PM (#5501663)
You seem stuck on this "What if history had turned out different?" thing, which is just stupid.

That's relevant for informing future trades, but not meaningful when it comes to caring about past results


The only result I care about is that the Yankees robbed the Cubs blind going forward from the end of 2016. I'm perfectly okay with the Cubs getting to fly that "W" flag over Wrigley for 5 months,** even if it's kind of a shame that there's now one less billy goat to talk about.

** And even over houses in Kensington, MD
   50. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5501669)
For some people, there are the Yankees, and 29 other MLB-level farm clubs.

Not always. I wouldn't want to see Machado or Schoop leave the Orioles, or Harper jump ship from the Nats, or Altuve or Correa jilt the Astros. But the Cubs have had their fun, and it's time for them to return to their natural habitat.
   51. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 28, 2017 at 03:54 PM (#5501684)
For some people, there are the Yankees, and 29 other MLB-level farm clubs.

I don't see any other clubs offering prospects like Torres or Frazier for Sonny Gray, and I don't think any will. Maybe the A's will be offered something they like better than Florial & Mateo, but I doubt it will be objectively better, just an eye-of-the-beholder preference. The Yanks aren't obligated to do a bad deal just because some other team did so last year.
   52. Khrushin it bro Posted: July 28, 2017 at 04:58 PM (#5501751)
Florial Mateo and Adams would be about right. If not just keep Gray and hope he posts a 1.00 WHIP and < 2.00 ERA the rest of the year.
   53. drdr Posted: July 28, 2017 at 06:02 PM (#5501804)
If teams wanted to include players that Oakland wants in deal for Quintana, Quintana wouldn't be Cub now. It's always possible that one of the GMs panics, but if they didn't deal top prospects for iron man who is signed through 2020, why would they trade them for pitcher who had arm injuries last two years and has one less year of control? Gray may be better when fully healthy, but he wasn't fully healthy since 2015.
Also, I think Gray will be traded no matter what return. If he gets injured again, next year he will be considered lottery ticked, and not potential ace. Too much risk for Oakland.
   54. Captain Supporter Posted: July 28, 2017 at 06:03 PM (#5501805)
Florial Mateo and Adams would be about right


No effing way. Keep Gray and let him break down.
   55. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 28, 2017 at 06:42 PM (#5501829)
The Yanks aren't obligated to do a bad deal just because some other team did so last year.
I don't think it's a bad deal at all. A high-grade prospect is a perfectly legitimate asking price for a 27-year-old arm in the middle of his third very good season in four years. The Yanks can choose to stick with their prospects and that's all well and fine — those are good prospects, and Gray is not without his issues — but Yankee fans on the thread are acting like the As are trying to trade donuts for diamonds. I guess it's good that, every once in a while, we're reintroduced to the natural arrogance of Yankee Nation.
   56. Khrushin it bro Posted: July 28, 2017 at 06:47 PM (#5501831)
Florial Mateo and Adams would be about right


No effing way. Keep Gray and let him break down.


I agree. I would rather keep him for anything less than that. Good luck in the playoffs with Tanaka's sliver of a UCL and fat ass Sabathia.
   57. cmd600 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 07:01 PM (#5501846)
but Yankee fans on the thread are acting like the As are trying to trade donuts for diamonds.


Right. Miller and Chapman are fantastic relievers, but even great relievers are still not worth as much as a starter of Gray's caliber. Frazier plus more got 2.5 years of a great reliever. Torres plus more got half a year of Chapman. Now, the two youngsters are worth more than they were a year ago, but it should be take a prospect worth more than what Frazier or Torres were a year ago to get Gray.
   58. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 07:11 PM (#5501852)
I agree. I would rather keep him for anything less than that. Good luck in the playoffs with Tanaka's sliver of a UCL and fat ass Sabathia


I'm impressed the fans of such a woebegone welfare team even know the playoffs are a thing. Good luck in the cellar. Again.
   59. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 28, 2017 at 07:42 PM (#5501876)
I'm impressed the fans of such a woebegone welfare team even know the playoffs are a thing. Good luck in the cellar. Again.
Yeah! The A's should be grateful the Yankees even deign to steal from them!
   60. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:01 PM (#5501889)
I'm just not sure the fans of routinely-terrible last-place teams living off welfare are the appropriate people to dispense advice on how to be successful in the postseason.

When I need advice on where to purchase a barrel-and-suspenders outfit however, I'd be more deferential.

   61. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:06 PM (#5501895)
I imagine this is how Jim Dolan and Jim Irsay sound when they explain to people how hard they worked to become owners of sports franchises.
   62. rconn23 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:08 PM (#5501899)
Florial Mateo and Adams would be about right.

I think that's a fair deal. Florial and Mateo are high ceiling players, but could also be busts. Gray could fall apart tomorrow.

Risk vs. risk
   63. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:14 PM (#5501905)
Eh, Adams is the oversell there, I'd go with Mitchell.
   64. rconn23 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:17 PM (#5501909)
I'll see your Mitchell and raise you a Zach Littell. That seems more reasonable.
   65. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:27 PM (#5501918)
Brady Lail.
   66. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:30 PM (#5501926)
Ok.

I was thinking Mitchell because I think he's going to have some sort of decent ML career (assuming health), and that seems fair to give up, but I'm ok with Littell.
   67. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:39 PM (#5501941)
Florial Mateo and Adams would be about right.

Oh God no. You're giving up the 3rd, 5th, and 8th best prospects in a consensus top-3 farm system for Sonny freaking Gray?

Just put Adams in the rotation now.
   68. APNY Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:43 PM (#5501946)
Mateo is hitting 179/238/333 his last ten games. I get that Florial/Mateo is the supposed offer, but Mateo is a guy who had spent a year and a half as one of the most disappointing prospects in the game and he's suddenly a centerpiece again based on a hot two weeks?

Adams is a weird prospect. His K and BB rates since reaching the upper minors are unimpressive for a top prospect, but his BAA is insane. How does that translate?
   69. rconn23 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:47 PM (#5501949)
Yeah, something is off with Adams. I've heard his FB doesn't have a lot of movement. You'd think he'd be up already instead of Cessa and Caleb freakin Smith. I think Adams is the third best pitching prospect in the org. behind Sheffield and Kaep.
   70. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:54 PM (#5501952)
I think Adams is the third best pitching prospect in the org. behind Sheffield and Kaep.


Kap just had TJ surgery in April.

Which brings up something I just thought of ... recently, some pitchers have be opting for PRPT (I think that's what it's called, plasma-rich-platelet therapy) instead of TJ surgery, with some success.

My question ... why not do try at once, if surgery is required and there's been some success with the PRPT treatment by itself ... I mean, it couldn't *hurt* could it?
   71. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 28, 2017 at 08:58 PM (#5501956)
Which brings up something I just thought of ... recently, some pitchers have be opting for PRPT (I think that's what it's called, plasma-rich-platelet therapy) instead of TJ surgery, with some success.

My question ... why not do try at once, if surgery is required and there's been some success with the PRPT treatment by itself ... I mean, it couldn't *hurt* could it?
You could lose an entire season without the benefit of actually getting healthier. Just ask Garrett Richards.
   72. Khrushin it bro Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:04 PM (#5501958)
Gray is pretty good.
   73. Khrushin it bro Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:05 PM (#5501959)
I'm just not sure the fans of routinely-terrible last-place teams living off welfare are the appropriate people to dispense advice on how to be successful in the postseason. 


Wow I wish I was the one trying to break up the Yankees dynasty with shrewd trades. Keep preaching the Reagonomics.
   74. Khrushin it bro Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:05 PM (#5501960)
Double post
   75. drdr Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:05 PM (#5501962)
Which brings up something I just thought of ... recently, some pitchers have be opting for PRPT (I think that's what it's called, plasma-rich-platelet therapy) instead of TJ surgery, with some success.

My question ... why not do try at once, if surgery is required and there's been some success with the PRPT treatment by itself ... I mean, it couldn't *hurt* could it?


There is very specific set of injuries where PRPT can be successful - it has to be partial tear, not complete, and it has to be near one end of the ligament, I forgot which. I would expect to see PRPT used in prevention - do MRs at least at the end of each season, and if there are signs that there might be slight tears, use PRPT so that ligament may heal before the next season.
   76. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:07 PM (#5501963)
You could lose an entire season without the benefit of actually getting healthier. Just ask Garrett Richards.


Sorry, I didn't realize I'd ###### up what I wanted to ask.

I realize the dangers of just doing the PRPT instead of TJ surgery, but what I was trying to ask is *if* you commit to TJ surgery, why not also try the PRPT as well afterwards, wouldn't that seem like it would help with the recovery?
   77. Captain Supporter Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:20 PM (#5501973)
Yeah, something is off with Adams. I've heard his FB doesn't have a lot of movement. You'd think he'd be up already instead of Cessa and Caleb freakin Smith.


Adams has been outstanding at every level. The only reason he is not up is that he is on an innings limit and can't pitch much more this year.
   78. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:21 PM (#5501974)
what I was trying to ask is *if* you commit to TJ surgery, why not also try the PRPT as well afterwards, wouldn't that seem like it would help with the recovery?
Oh! Well, in that case...

I actually looked into this before the season, researching Richards' procedure. There's just not enough research into PRP use; no one wants to claim any sort of result, and the preliminary findings aren't even enough to just be inconclusive. One paper even worried about how PRP may actually fool doctors by making them think an injury has healed better than it actually has.

TJ surgery's tough and even though recoveries are the norm, they're not a guarantee. PRP and orthopedic stem cell treatments sound like a great, safe alternative, but at this rate Richards is going to miss nearly two years off his career, and no one can say what the impact PRPT had on his arm health. At this point, if I were a major league team, I'd want my pitcher to go through the tried-and-true surgery, and let some other organization break new ground. That's a lot easier to say when it's not your elbow.
   79. rconn23 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:22 PM (#5501975)
Gray is pretty good.

Indeed he is. And if 2016 hadn't happened with the injuries, the Yankees might be ok with giving up Frazier or Torres. But it did happen, so they shouldn't. And it's understandable if Beane doesn't accept that.
   80. cmd600 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:22 PM (#5501976)
Oh God no. You're giving up the 3rd, 5th, and 8th best prospects in a consensus top-3 farm system for Sonny freaking Gray?


None are in the top 50 on the midseason BA or MLB lists. You'll have to give up an elite prospect to get a top of the rotation pitcher with two more years of control after this.
   81. drdr Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:22 PM (#5501978)
I realize the dangers of just doing the PRPT instead of TJ surgery, but what I was trying to ask is *if* you commit to TJ surgery, why not also try the PRPT as well afterwards, wouldn't that seem like it would help with the recovery?


As far as I know, PRPT may be able to help heal tissue, muscles and ligaments. TJ surgery replaces the ligament, so new ligament does not need to heal.
   82. drdr Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:29 PM (#5501982)
None are in the top 50 on the midseason BA or MLB lists. You'll have to give up an elite prospect to get a top of the rotation pitcher with two more years of control after this.


Top of the rotation is upside. He had arm injuries in 2016 and 2017, so downside is Gray spends two seasons on DL. Any offer for Gray, and other starters on the market, that is bigger than the offer for Quintana is pure desperation.
   83. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:29 PM (#5501983)
Interesting.

How does the new ligament attach? Would that be helped?
   84. rconn23 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:31 PM (#5501984)
"top of the rotation pitcher with two more years of control after this."

Not an elite pitcher and with significant injury concerns. He's worth two or three really good prospects, but not the very best ones in your system. Cashman will walk away from that request and not think twice.
   85. Khrushin it bro Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:31 PM (#5501986)
Gray is pretty good.

Indeed he is. And if 2016 hadn't happened with the injuries, the Yankees might be ok with giving up Frazier or Torres. But it did happen, so they shouldn't. And it's understandable if Beane doesn't accept


Not sure there is a good trade here. The Yankees rotation is a question mark, might not need Gray. The next two years he would be pretty valuable if his arm doesn't fall off.
   86. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:38 PM (#5501990)
Not sure there is a good trade here. The Yankees rotation is a question mark, might not need Gray. The next two years he would be pretty valuable if his arm doesn't fall off.
Right. Gray's anywhere from a #2 starter to an All-Star. If he stays healthy, he'll likely be much more valuable to the Yankees than the prospects mentioned; Gray would immediately be the second-best starter in the entire Yankee organization. The worries about his health are legitimate, but Oakland's not being unreasonable.
   87. rconn23 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 09:53 PM (#5501995)
Any Sonny Gray trade is an "if" trade. No prospects are sure things, obviously, but Torres and Frazier are as close as they get. The prospects coming back should be "if" guys and Florial and Mateo fit that bill. Very high ceiling, but low floors.

I like Gray and would like to see the Yankees get him, but this isn't 2015 Gray.
   88. cmd600 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 10:00 PM (#5502001)
Top of the rotation is upside


Top of the rotation is his present state.

Pretty much every pitcher is a health risk.

Quintana went for a top five prospect and another top 100. If the Yankees give up another top 100 on top of Torres, I'll say they overpaid. But anything short of that is a fair asking price.
   89. rconn23 Posted: July 28, 2017 at 10:15 PM (#5502014)
Quintana has been as durable as any pitcher in the league. Gray is not even close to that. At his best and without the health concerns Gray is better than Quintana, but those health concerns linger. I don't believe this trade gets done.
   90. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 28, 2017 at 10:27 PM (#5502021)
It doesn't get done if the A's insist on Torres or Frazier. Absent that, I think lots of things are in play. Maybe the deal grows to include Yonder Alonso or Jed Lowrie and their salaries, and the A's get some more talent in return. Maybe then adding Chance Adams is a more palatable option.

Honestly, nobody expected the Yankees to have such a young, exciting, crowd-pleasing team this year. They have a legitimate chance to go deep in the playoffs this season and they're likely to get better in subsequent years. With a deep farm system this is actually a pretty ideal situation to cull some depth and make the team better in 2017 and 2018.
   91. Khrushin it bro Posted: July 28, 2017 at 10:30 PM (#5502025)
I'm with you guys, Gray is worth a top 20 prospect plus filler or a top 50 and another top 100.
   92. Khrushin it bro Posted: July 28, 2017 at 10:31 PM (#5502027)
Gray is definitely a step down in value from Quintana.
   93. Howie Menckel Posted: July 28, 2017 at 10:33 PM (#5502031)
credit to the Yankees in the past year for having either killed, or at least on paper, with multiple major deals.

but nobody gets a lifetime pass on that, and passing on Gray and missing the playoffs in that market with those expensive boxes and club seats and Gray is not a lame duck?

the Yanks ain't driving this bus
   94. Cargo Cultist Posted: July 28, 2017 at 10:41 PM (#5502034)
For some people, there are the Yankees, and 29 other MLB-level farm clubs.


Given that the sentence you were commenting on was written by lifelong Yankee-hating Dodger fan, you seriously need to revisit your assumptions.
   95. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 28, 2017 at 11:21 PM (#5502060)
Given the tone and tenor of comments from many of the Yankee fans in this thread, I don't think I need to. Thanks anyways.
   96. GGIAS (aka Poster Nutbag) Posted: July 29, 2017 at 12:31 AM (#5502076)
I'm just not sure the fans of routinely-terrible last-place teams living off welfare are the appropriate people to dispense advice on how to be successful in the postseason.


They've been in last place 3 times since 1999...and in 1st or 2nd 12 times. Sure, the last 2-3 seasons have been a lull, but you're overselling it quite a bit there. Or just doing your best at proving the point many are making about arrogant Yankee fans in general. They may not be The Yankees, but there is a tier below the A's that includes such teams as The Padres, The Reds, etc. that fit your comment much more appropriately.
   97. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: July 29, 2017 at 12:48 AM (#5502080)
Eh, forget it, it's YR, it's his schtick.

Have you been following any of this Baker's Dozen MSG run?

   98. GGIAS (aka Poster Nutbag) Posted: July 29, 2017 at 01:26 AM (#5502086)
#97

I know, but ever since I shot him in the ass I feel like I have the right to poke him occasionally.

As for the Baker's Dozen run, I have been trying not to click that button giving me all the MP3's from the run and it's been VERY hard. I am almost glad I am so busy these days and don't really get the chance to watch them via livestream. I heard Icculus (and a Peaches too!!!!) made an appearance, which always makes me smile. My children are old enough to read Icculus. How about yourself?
   99. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: July 29, 2017 at 01:40 AM (#5502089)
Slowly making my way through things. Some pretty great stuff so far. Only trouble is that they seem to be cracking down a lot harder on uploads to YouTube, so it's hard to casually check out shows than it was before. I went ahead and signed up for the streaming service, it's not live, but they have the shows available within an hour or so after the encore, which is fine.

They are also uploading video of the first songs from each set, which is nice, when it works out.

7/25 was pretty ridiculous ... a 30+ minute Lawn Boy? A five song 1st set?

Yes, please.
   100. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: July 29, 2017 at 07:31 AM (#5502106)
.pilF
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