As far as I can tell, the Church has done a good job of reforming itself on this issue and rooting out predators.

Yeah, they've done a great job of holding Cardinal Brady accountable. I also like the way they snuck Cardinal Law out of Boston a few hours ahead of a subpoena and hid him in Rome, to shield him from prosecution.

They're really a stand-up organization.

There are lots and lots and lots of observent Christians, Jews and Muslims who are very good people

And too many hungry lions.

Most all pedophiles have a favored sex.

Assuming for the sake of argument that this is true -- I admit you spend a lot more time thinking about pedophilia than I do (or than the rest of the BBTF posters combined, for that matter) -- that does not mean that homosexuality and pedophilia are linked. "Man likes to have sex with small boys" does not mean "Man likes to have sex with men."

Jesus ###### Christ. Of course pedo-priests overwhelmingly target boys. They overwhelmingly have privileged access to boys, and not to girls. Namely altar- and choirboys. Trying to infer anything other than the effect opportunity has on crimes is dumb.

Jesus ###### Christ. Of course pedo-priests overwhelmingly target boys. They overwhelmingly have privileged access to boys, and not to girls. Namely altar- and choirboys. Trying to infer anything other than the effect opportunity has on crimes is dumb.

I'm not talking about the pedophiles. I agree with you on the pedophiles.

I'm talking about the ones having sex with teenagers. A straight man who's attracted to a 15 y.o. girl is not going to go after a 15 y.o. boy b/c not girls are available.

This also ignores the fact that altar-servers have been almost wholely co-ed since about 1990, and choirs, youth groups and CCD long before then.

I'm still looking for a nuke.

I think Ray knows a guy who knows a guy...

Ah, our pedophilia expert has shown up with his giggle tests, only a matter of time.


This also ignores the fact that altar-servers have been almost wholely co-ed since about 1990, and choirs, youth groups and CCD long before then.

Errrrr... I'd be curious of the percentages of altar-servers as far as co-ed.

Citing choirs doesn't do you much good for the catholics, no one gives two shits about organized choirs there; and unless I'm sorely mistaken, the ones who do care - the Espiscopals - are doing way better with the pedophilia scandals (as in, fewer) than the catholic church.

EVERYONE'S HAVING SEX BUT ME!

So the ######## forfeit, and whoever they beat to get into the championship game plays Mesa Prep in the championship. The girl gets to play baseball and the nutjobs get to not play baseball. Everyone wins.

The team should be told that if they are going to pull this kind of #### (i.e. refuse to play against teams with girls), they won't be allowed in the league. If they want to organize exhibitions against all-boy teams, let them do that on their own outside of the league context. But a team that would forfeit the championship rather than play against another team in the league, for any reason, shouldn't be allowed in the league in the first place.

This also ignores the fact that altar-servers have been almost wholely co-ed since about 1990, and choirs, youth groups and CCD long before then.

Dunno, in the US maybe. I was a choirboy until 96 (not been in a church since), and all 20+ altar boys, and the entire 120 choir was exclusively male.

Citing choirs doesn't do you much good for the catholics, no one gives two shits about organized choirs there

Dunno, in the US maybe.

EVERYONE'S HAVING SEX BUT ME!

You should take that up with your girlfriend, not us.

EVERYONE'S HAVING SEX BUT ME!

Geez Shooty, how badly did you upset your girl that she is withholding sex from you?

You should take that up with your girlfriend, not us.

I couldn't get her to Newark right now even with the offer of nuclear-powered Shooty love.

Dunno, in the US maybe. I was a choirboy until 96 (not been in a church since), and all 20+ altar boys, and the entire 120 choir was exclusively male.

I'm talking exclusively US. I know next to nothing about the scandals in other countries.

But, I started CCD in ~1978, and there were plenty of girls (from age 5 through 18) around the Church, even though altar service was all boys until later. HS CCD was predominantly girls; most of the guys (myself included) stopped going after confirmation.

Geez Shooty, how badly did you upset your girl that she is withholding sex from you?

I should probably read the fine print on the restraining order.

I couldn't get her to Newark right now even with the offer of nuclear-powered Shooty love.

They don't let you into Manhattan anymore?

Arguing about which intolerant, hierarchical, misogynistic, repressed, fanatical religion - Christian, Jewish, or Muslim-- is worse is like arguing whether or not Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pol was worse.

Obviously. The only distinction in this case would be which of these organizations is more likely to demand that the offender be brought to justice, either through cooperation with the secular authorities or by a meeting with the offender in a dark alley. If anything, the Catholic Church comes out a bit better here, since at least AFAIK they haven't yet descended to the point of trying to bring local prosecutors into their conspiracy of silence. That article about what's been going on in Brooklyn describes a culture that's scarcely different in many respects from the Mafia, and even the Mafia wouldn't likely put up with child molestation.

They don't let you into Manhattan anymore?

Of course not! Not since the incident with the Halal cart and the police horse...

As far as I can tell, the Church has done a good job of reforming itself on this issue and rooting out predators.

Only AFTER their hand was forced by dozens of lawsuits and some courageous prosecutors willing to take on the church hierarchy.

There is absolutely nothing to indicated any change in church policy of playing musical-parishes with pedophiles until after their hand was forced by outside agencies.

I'm talking about the ones having sex with teenagers. A straight man who's attracted to a 15 y.o. girl is not going to go after a 15 y.o. boy b/c not girls are available.

A fair chunk of the prison population might disagree with this.

Snapper is right. Hasidic Jews are insane lunatics.

They don't let you into Manhattan anymore?

Not once any part of you makes contact with anything in Newark, no. At that point, there are a lot of medical procedures and spiritual reprogrammings that have to take place before you're let back in.

There is absolutely nothing to indicated any change in church policy of playing musical-parishes with pedophiles until after their hand was forced by outside agencies.

Well sure, but no one is claiming that. The actions were terrible, but the cover-ups were almost worse inasmuch as they were coldly calculated after the fact rather than acts that had some basis in in-the-moment lust. None of it was defensible at all, but I think the only claim made was that a lot of progress has been made in the past thirty years. It wasn't easy, fast or even voluntary, but it's clearly better. And that's true in a lot of other communities as well. Schools, Scouting and youth sports, to name a few that my kids are involved in, are all quite up front about checking out volunteers and telling kids what's out of bounds. The whole world is different from when I grew up, and with regard to this it's a lot better.

None of it was defensible at all, but I think the only claim made was that a lot of progress has been made in the past thirty years. It wasn't easy, fast or even voluntary, but it's clearly better. And that's true in a lot of other communities as well.

The claim being made is that the Church deserves credit for changing its ways. That change was forced on them by the threat of bankruptcy and by criminal prosecutions. No credit should be given for doing something that was forced on them.

Meanwhile the Church has now decided to target the Girl Scouts as an evil organization, based on lies promulgated by the right wing.

As far as the co-ed altar servers, I'm not really buying it.

Oh yes, as of 2004, neither was the Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum. (Which, it should be noted, is quite a bit after snapper's 1990 figure. Of course, that was even wrong as it was only decided in 1994 that it was even possible and allowed.) However, who cares, because:

"Therefore the Holy See's recommendation is to retain as far as possible the custom of having only boys as servers. But it leaves to the bishop the choice of permitting women and girls for a good reason and to the pastor of each parish the decision as to whether to act on the bishop's permission."

Yes indeedy, just SWARMING with girls, the altar is.

In other words, bullshitt, snapper.

The "media" prints stories that gets it the most advertising dollars. Full Stop.

Yes indeedy, just SWARMING with girls, the altar is.

In other words, bullshitt, snapper.

And lots of American parishes were using altar girls long before Rome OK'd. In my experience at probably 30 different parishes across the country over the last 20 years, at least half of altar servers are girls. Only very traditional parishes don't have them.

You might as well quote Humanae Vitae as showing that no Catholics use contraception.

Well, this seems particularly timely and relevant:

Girl Scouts under scrutiny from Catholic bishops

The new inquiry will be conducted by the bishops' Committee on Laity, Marriage, Family Life and Youth. It will look into the Scouts' "possible problematic relationships with other organizations" and various "problematic" program materials, according to a letter sent by the committee chairman, Bishop Kevin Rhoades of Fort Wayne, Ind., to his fellow bishops.
...
To the Girl Scouts, some of the attacks seem to be a form of guilt by association. Critics contend that Girl Scouts materials shouldn't contain links to groups such as Doctors without Borders, the Sierra Club and Oxfam because they support family planning or emergency contraception.

Who better to determine what organizations a bunch of young girls should be associating themselves with than a bunch of old men who've never had sex. The Bishops devolve further into self-parody.

In my experience at probably 30 different parishes across the country over the last 20 years, at least half of altar servers are girls.

I haven't had a chance to look for a good source, but I'm reasonably confident your view of a 50/50 split for altar boys/girls nationwide is fantasy.

Meanwhile the Church has now decided to target the Girl Scouts as an evil organization, based on lies promulgated by the right wing.

Perhaps the Bishops were inspired by those brave Illinois American Legionnaires of the 1950's. Like our modern day valiant defenders of The One and True Faith, they also knew subversion when they saw it.

I haven't had a chance to look for a good source, but I'm reasonably confident your view of a 50/50 split for altar boys/girls nationwide is fantasy.

My own parish does not use altar servers at all, but it's definitely 50/50 in the other parishes in my area of Virginia, as well as in the suburban NY parishes where my nieces and nephews serve.

My own parish does not use altar servers at all, but it's definitely 50/50 in the other parishes in my area of Virginia, as well as in the suburban NY parishes where my nieces and nephews serve.

You should look at my first link in #125. It's Virginia that's moving away from co-ed servers, and one woman was having a hard time finding a parish within a 45-minute drive for a place her daughters could serve.

I mean, cite the Washington Post's war on religion or liberal bias all you want, but that was one 3-second google search for issues regarding co-ed servers.

You should look at my first link in #125. It's Virginia that's moving away from co-ed servers, and one woman was having a hard time finding a parish within a 45-minute drive for a place her daughters could serve.

That's a very recent trend.

You should look at my first link in #125. It's Virginia that's moving away from co-ed servers, and one woman was having a hard time finding a parish within a 45-minute drive for a place her daughters could serve.

That's a very recent trend.

Wait, what? The inclusion of girls in alter services was the recent trend, not the other way around.

Wait, what? The inclusion of girls in alter services was the recent trend, not the other way around.

The inclusion started in the 1980's (against official policy) was granted Papal permission in the early 1990's, and became universal soon thereafter.

In the last 5-10 years, traditionalist Catholics have started rolling it back, but only in a very few places to date (Nebraska, Traditional Latin Masses, and isolated parishes).

I mean, cite the Washington Post's war on religion or liberal bias all you want, but that was one 3-second google search for issues regarding co-ed servers.

In Minnesota there have been altar girls since the 90s. Places with lots of Catholics can hold to those high standards, but the real world has to get the work done. You cite an article addressing the next to last diocese in the nation to accept girls on the altar, but even there 40% of parishes in the diocese have girls. The local bishops have the latitude and they all allow it.

The Catholic church is a huge, sprawling organization. Claiming that it acts as a single, coordinated organism is very often ridiculous. The US Conference of Catholic Bishops has been far to the left and far to the right of Rome at various points in the past. Official doctrine's hold on the average Catholic is frequently tenuous. The conservatism that's emerged in the past couple decades was once Vatican II's radical lurch to the left. It's easy to speak about "The Church", but it's really an organization constituted of millions of people from the whole spectrum of humanity and often contains contradictions and inconsistencies. As a Catholic that thought is what keeps me from banging my head on the desk some days.

The inclusion started in the 1980's (against official policy) was granted Papal permission in the early 1990's, and became universal soon thereafter.

Given the very long history of the church, the 1990s seem pretty recent. That's barely a generation.

Errrrr... I'd be curious of the percentages of altar-servers as far as co-ed.

The population of altar servers in my parish break down as follows:

75% are girls
20% are brothers of some of those girls
5% are other boys

The parish also has a teen "youth group" that does bible study, community service, etc. I'd estimate the youth group membership is 60-70% female.

The youth choir there has maybe a dozen teens in it; last year they celebrated for finally having *one* male join.

You should look at my first link in #125. It's Virginia that's moving away from co-ed servers, and one woman was having a hard time finding a parish within a 45-minute drive for a place her daughters could serve.

If I understand the timeline from the article:

1994 - Pope says it's OK to have female altar servers.

2006 - The Arlington Diocese becomes the next-to-last diocese in America to approve of it, but left it up to individual priests to decide rather than force it.

2011 - 40% of the parishes in the Arlington Diocese have adopted the policy of allowing female altar servers. (Up from 0% five years earlier.)

late 2011 - One of those parishes changed its mind regarding new altar servers. They still allow their existing female altar servers to continue in that role.

2012 - Lassus declares that last data point is a statewide trend, and calls "bullshitt" on snapper for suggesting otherwise.

My experiences in various Indiana parishes match snapper's and others. Frankly, I wasn't even aware that some churches were moving away from having girls serve, though knowing how some old priests/bishops think (such as my dad's cousin), I'm not terribly surprised there are a few places where this has cropped up. Now our family's ratio is 2:1 B to G, but that's only because we've got twice as many Unacceptable male offspring than female.

You cite an article addressing the next to last diocese in the nation to accept girls on the altar, but even there 40% of parishes in the diocese have girls.

Understood. I do know that know people are going to take issue with this, but if people see 6 girls and 12 boys over a month of masses, to them, in their head, that's a 50/50 split because just the fact that there are any girls there at all inflates the numbers in the eyes of someone witnessing.

Having lived in this world and been in a LOT of churches over the last 35 years, I think snapper's ORIGINAL point about co-ed servers, which is getting lost in this cite and that cite and blah blah, (equally my fault, perhaps moreso) as some kind of allay for scandal's more insidious properties is simply not what exists. Neither as numerical fact nor any manner of qualifying aspect of the scandal.

2011 - 40% of the parishes in the Arlington Diocese have adopted the policy of allowing female altar servers. (Up from 0% five years earlier.)

2012 - Lassus declares that last data point is a statewide trend, and calls "bullshitt" on snapper for suggesting otherwise.

I called ######## on a 50/50 nationwide split. You do see that "40% allow girls" is not the same as "a 50% split exists between boys and girls", right?


As far as villageidiom's parish, I'll gladly admit I'm wrong on that parish, apparently.

You do see that "40% allow girls" is not the same as "a 50% split exists between boys and girls", right?

40% in the 2nd to last diocese (over over 200) to allow them. In the other ~250 diocese 99% of parishes allow girls.

I think snapper's ORIGINAL point about co-ed servers, which is getting lost in this cite and that cite and blah blah, (equally my fault, perhaps moreso) as some kind of allay for scandal's more insidious properties is simply not what exists. Neither as numerical fact nor any manner of qualifying aspect of the scandal.

I mean it to "allay" nothing. Describing the facts of the scandal does not mitigate any of the evil that occured. I'm simply pointing out that it's been decades upon decades since any would-be abuser priest didn't have ample access to girls ages 5-17 in his parish. Not to mention the ability to go outside the parish; these are not cloistered monks.

Just like it is ridiculous to blame homosexuals for the pedophile aspects of the scandal, it is ridiculous to say homosexuality played no part in the relations of priest with teenagers, the vast majority of whom turned out to be male. Two different sets of offenses, with different causes.

I called ######## on a 50/50 nationwide split. You do see that "40% allow girls" is not the same as "a 50% split exists between boys and girls", right?

Yes. You do see that the diocese that gave all other parishes (save one) in America a 16-year head start might lag the nationwide numbers, right?

I have - as I've worked - been unable to find any figures for nationwide percentages of alter boys and altar girls. Hence, I'm willing to concede I may be incorrect that a 50/50 split in the catholic church nationwide is "fantasy", as I originally said. I certainly rather strongly suspect that 50/50 split is not the case, nor has it been the case, ever. But it's not fair for me to yammer on about it - with only personal experience and no figures - as if it is fact.

http://voices.yahoo.com/altar-girls-outnumber-altar-boys-6543820.html

This article cites a 60:40 Female:Male ratio at the "International Pilgrimage of Altar Servers" in Rome in August, 2010.

I don't think the numbers are going to be easy to find or very accurate, and I think they'll vary by region pretty substantially. There is a pretty wide spectrum in Catholic conservatism across the country and person anecdotes will reflect that. One point Snapper made regarding CCD is worth echoing across the broader Catholic experience: girls and women do seem to stay with it longer than boys and are often more active. At my parish we have more girls as altar servers and much higher rates of youth group participation as well. Again, anecdotal, but you put it all together and make a mosaic I guess.

For full disclosure, I was never an altar boy, but have become an "altar man" in my late-30's and 40's, serving Mass for my brother-in-law when he's visiting. We do both Novus Ordo (in English or Latin) and the Tridentine Latin Mass. Only 2 of the Masses I've served have been in Church, the other several dozen were private Masses.

I actually think having both adult laymen and boys serve at the altar would be a good reform. Get a kind of father-son thing going.

As it is particpation in the other parish roles (lector, CCD teachers, Parish council) skews very heavily female, so it would be good to get adult men more involved.

It would also be a nice check on any predator priests still lurking to have more adult men around the Church.

I actually think having both adult laymen and boys serve at the altar would be a good reform. Get a kind of father-son thing going

This is pretty common in the Orthodox church. We've got married priests, so the priest's sons basically grow up serving in the altar. Career deacons are very common, especially in slavic parishes. There are also lots parishoners holding minor orders, who you can find serving, chanting, and singing in various capacities.

In the US, part of the "altar man" thing is because parishes are small and many just do whatever they have to in order to get by. But adults serving in the altar is pretty common even in places like Russia.

But it's not fair for me to yammer on about it - with only personal experience and no figures - as if it is fact.

That's all I'm asking.

I don't know if any of the female altar servers in our parish play baseball, but if they did my son would play against them. And strike them out. Because he's a good pitcher. And because his level of little league is dominated by two true outcomes.

EDIT: And because, if he's anything like me, he's got an excellent chance of striking out with the ladies.

Well, this seems particularly timely and relevant:

I guess this means Shredder has me on ignore.

You should look at my first link in #125. It's Virginia that's moving away from co-ed servers...

The Arlington Diocese is not the only one in Virginia. The Richmond Diocese has always been much more liberal, although we did get a much more conservative bishop a few years ago. He has not, however, kicked out the female altar servers AFAIK.

I enjoyed 35 very much, even if she "missed the joke". So did I. But 35 was very funny.

Mama
Where's your little daughter?
She's there
right there on the altar.
You should never have opened that door.

1. The Hasid scandal should get more coverage, but with the Hasids you are talking about a crazy extreme fringe (a mainstream Jew feels a much greater degree of kinship with a Catholic than with an ultra-orthodox). The Catholic Church coverup was massive and permeated the Hierarchy of one of the world's great religions, and showed how ingrained horrific judgement can become even in those who dedicate their lives to morality. Evil flourished.

2. For me, the scandal in most need of far greater attention is the amount of rape and abuse endured by the brave women training to join America's military. And the steadfast refusal by our leaders to do enough to stop it and/or to prosecute the perpetrators and/or protect victims coming forward.

Priests raping children is one thing, the Church looking the other way and allowing it to continue, from fellow priests all the way up to the Archbishop and beyond, that's unforgivable. Then again, I would argue that a hierarchical culture that places priests above laymen, men above women, adults above children, and splits the body off as insignifcant in relation to the soul lays the foundation for such abuses.

It's inconceivable that anyone who gives a damn about the RCC would continue to minimize this worldwide atrocity.

2. For me, the scandal in most need of far greater attention is the amount of rape and abuse endured by the brave women training to join America's military. And the steadfast refusal by our leaders to do enough to stop it and/or to prosecute the perpetrators and/or protect victims coming forward.

It's been argued that the anthropological purpose of warfare is rape.

Your god sucks.

It's inconceivable that anyone who gives a damn about the RCC would continue to minimize this worldwide atrocity.

Please cite the posters who are minimizing the atrocity.

Your god sucks.

And that's why I love her.

Please cite the posters who are minimizing the atrocity.

The naked shouldn't lead the blind.

154. bookbook Posted: May 11, 2012 at 07:32 PM (#4129675)
1. The Hasid scandal should get more coverage, but with the Hasids you are talking about a crazy extreme fringe (a mainstream Jew feels a much greater degree of kinship with a Catholic than with an ultra-orthodox).

- mainstream jews, at least american ones, have incredibly more in common with other american mainstream atheists, christians, moslems, than they do with any other fringe "fundamentalist" group.

The Catholic Church coverup was massive and permeated the Hierarchy of one of the world's great religions, and showed how ingrained horrific judgement can become even in those who dedicate their lives to morality. Evil flourished.

- or they took John saying "love the little children" too literally, you know what i'm sayin...
trouble is that part of catholicism is "forgiveness of sin" which is understandable, but putting rapist priests where they can just go and sin some more without any real worry about mortal punishment - now THAT is what is unforgiveable.

but as we have clearly seen from, say, the sandusky scandal, or the hasid non-scandal (and why exactly is it that that partiocular group isn't getting any well deserved criticism about its racist attitudes) any group with power does what it needs to to keep that power and shut up or pay off the complainers.

2. For me, the scandal in most need of far greater attention is the amount of rape and abuse endured by the brave women training to join America's military. And the steadfast refusal by our leaders to do enough to stop it and/or to prosecute the perpetrators and/or protect victims coming forward

- some shtt different century/millenium

wasn't that long ago that rich men paid off parents of females they raped and/or impregnated
the old testament mandated that an unmarried female who was raped was punished by being forced to marry her rapist

look at all the modern "cultures" that kill or try to kill any female who is raped because SHE "disgraced" the family

The naked shouldn't lead the blind.

Let the record show that you could not* cite anyone in this thread doing what you suggest. That's fine, earlier I was going to rip into your asshattery, but then it occurred to me you might just be standing on a soapbox railing against people who aren't in this thread. If that's what you were doing, well, good for you. I'm glad this site could provide a platform for your rant you're aiming at the silent lurkers who do what you're complaining about. That's not asshattery, but it might not be what you were going for.

Good thing we cleared that up.

* I was going to say "would not", but I didn't want to accuse you of cowardice. If you are a coward, and refuse to defend yourself against my frightening request for specifics, you can take comfort in the benefit of the doubt. For whatever that's worth.

and why exactly is it that that partiocular group isn't getting any well deserved criticism about its racist attitudes

Partly because they are a small group of people who very largely keep to themselves, and nobody is really clamoring to open their community to become part of it.

Partly because their views only become public when there is friction with the larger world which causes them to interact. They are not going around broadcasting their view to non-believers because they don't seek converts and they really don't care what anyone else anywhere thinks about anything.

Partly because they are so obviously strange and alien -- even to the vast majority of Jews -- that nobody really cares about them or really wants to get to know them.

Think of it this way: The Amish could be the most virulently racist people on earth (I have no reason to believe they are at all bigoted), and nobody would really care because they are isolated, don't deal with outsiders if they can avoid it, and there are not large numbers (or small numbers or any numbers) of minorities pushing to become Amish or to develop commercial ties with the Amish community.

The difference is that the orthodox are in an urban setting and deal with the outside community much more than the Amish do, including at the voting booth and by seeking whatever government money they can for their schools and such. In Israel, they are a real problem in terms of taking large subsidies for themselves while contributing very little to society (since they all want to study Talmud and be above it all), while also being very disruptive at times because of their views. Of course, in Israel, they constitute a significantly larger portion of the population than they do here.

I do not see them changing, ever. They have held on to their ways and beliefs under the most astonishing pressure. If they weren't nutters, it would be a very astonishing and admirable accomplishment. The best we can hope for is to isolate them and their extremism, and keep them out of the public purse as much as possible.

Among my little group growing up, the refrain was "Hasidim? Yeah, ah see dem but I don't believe dem."

srul

so why do they tolerate child rapists? i mean, i understand it is against their beliefs to ?interact? with other people who don't belong to their sect, but why then don't they have their own system of policing rapists? i guess if it is a female child who gets raped it is her own fault, but what if it is a male?

i guess it's like us christians with the nutcase fundamentalists who want science removed from the schools and womens rights removed from the laws

In Israel, [the Hasidim] are a real problem in terms of taking large subsidies for themselves while contributing very little to society (since they all want to study Talmud and be above it all), while also being very disruptive at times because of their views. Of course, in Israel, they constitute a significantly larger portion of the population than they do here.

Funny you should mention that. This article just got posted online this evening:

Culture war looms as Israel pledges to end ultra-Orthodox military exemptions

Here's what taking "go forth and multiply" to heart can accomplish over half a century:

Israel’s first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, granted military exemptions to what was then a group of a few hundred Haredi students, in part because it was assumed that their lifestyle would fade over time. Today, the ultra-Orthodox comprise one-tenth of Israel’s 7.8 million citizens, and 63,000 received exemptions for religious study in 2010.

so why do they tolerate child rapists? i mean, i understand it is against their beliefs to ?interact? with other people who don't belong to their sect, but why then don't they have their own system of policing rapists? i guess if it is a female child who gets raped it is her own fault, but what if it is a male?

i guess it's like us christians with the nutcase fundamentalists who want science removed from the schools and womens rights removed from the laws

That's pretty much it. Jesus creeps are hardly the only creeps out there.

so why do they tolerate child rapists? i mean, i understand it is against their beliefs to ?interact? with other people who don't belong to their sect, but why then don't they have their own system of policing rapists?

That's a very good question.

Why is there no vigilantism? If you're going to act like the Mafia, act like the Mafia.

Or at the very least, why don't they shun the abusers, like they do the victims?

That's a very good question.

Why is there no vigilantism? If you're going to act like the Mafia, act like the Mafia.

Or at the very least, why don't they shun the abusers, like they do the victims?

From the first article linked, apparently its a pretty big sin to falsely accuse somebody due to how insular the community is. Of course the community doesn't seem to see the cognitive dissonance of not expelling one who does such harm to individuals also hurts the community.

Secondly, some of the abusers are the very rabbis who hold significant power. You try to accuse a made man of diddling your kid, a made man that has money and influence in your gang, and see how far that gets you?