Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Friday, August 31, 2012

Barra: C.C.‘s No Ace And Joba Rules No More; Post-Season Looks Bleak For Yanks

You can’t spell embarrassing without Barra.

Perhaps the most disheartening thing was once again watching C.C. Sabathia look un-hittable in early innings and then all of a sudden run out of steam. It has become painfully obvious that he is not and probably never will be the big game ace the Yankees have always tried to see him as. Wednesday’s game was absolutely crucial, but Sabathia, who whizzed through the first two innings on just 18 pitches with three strikeouts, nearly lost it all in the 3rd, giving up 5 hits and surrendering the lead 3-2.

...Actually, Sabathia’s performance was the second most disheartening thing in the game. Even worse was he performance by Joba Chamberlain, who, despite all logic, was brought in by Girardi in the 9th to keep the game at 6-5, Toronto. Instead, Joba gave up a double to Escobar which made it 8-5 and then hit a batter.

But now, at age 26, he looks like a relic from Double-A ball who is working his way back into the bigs by learning to throw a knuckler. The old sinking fastball and hard breaking slider are gone. So, too, is the look of barrel-chested intimidation that he used to project. Yankee press information now lists him at 250 pounds, about 15-20 more than he carried a few years ago when Joe Torre and his staff couldn’t seem to decide instituted “the Joba rules,” limiting his work load while paradoxically trying to decide whether they wanted him to be the greatest starter or greatest reliever of all time.

This year Joba’s given up 16 hits and four walks in just 7.1 innings for a ridiculous 8.59 ERA. Why the Yankees still have him on the roster is another mystery, but one that they can no longer afford to try and solve as the Orioles come to the Bronx for the biggest series so far this season.

Repoz Posted: August 31, 2012 at 07:38 AM | 35 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: yankees

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. RollingWave Posted: August 31, 2012 at 08:23 AM (#4223332)
right, let's damn a reliever on the sample of 7 inning after comming back from two huge injury.

   2. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 31, 2012 at 08:36 AM (#4223339)
Poor Yankees, if only anything ever went well for them. Looks like it is another last place finish.
   3. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: August 31, 2012 at 08:37 AM (#4223342)
At least the Yankees will make the playoffs, unlike a certain team I could name, who just lost three straight one-run games to a team they should be able to beat in their freakin' sleep.

\bitter
\yes, very
   4. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: August 31, 2012 at 08:38 AM (#4223344)
Given that, who thinks he'll be ready for October?
   5. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: August 31, 2012 at 08:43 AM (#4223351)
Acknowledging that this year is the least attention I've paid to any one baseball season since becoming a fan in '98, but...is this the weakest playoff field ever? When I look at the Yankees I see a deeply flawed team. A good team, yes, but one with obvious holes. However, when I look at the rest of the contenders...I feel like I see the same.

TL;DR: I'm not bothered/concerned by the performance of any one Yankee because there is no juggernaut this year.
   6. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 31, 2012 at 08:48 AM (#4223356)
Ha ha ha ha stupid Yankees, they're screwed! Thank God I'm a Red Sox fan and don't have to worry about underperforming aces, young relievers falling apart and asinine media-driven drama.
   7. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 31, 2012 at 09:12 AM (#4223370)
Acknowledging that this year is the least attention I've paid to any one baseball season since becoming a fan in '98, but...is this the weakest playoff field ever?


I don't think it's necessarily weak but it lacks a "holy crap" team. Going through BBRef there is a chance that 2012 will be the first time since 1992 that no team outscored its opponents by at least 1 run per game. I think all the playoff teams do have holes (though I think Texas is pretty damned close to not having any) so there is no end result of any possible series that would surprise me at this point.

I think the relative newness of the top teams plays into this. For some reason Texas doesn't get the "fear factor" coverage the Yankees or Red Sox got despite being two time AL champs and being damned good this year. Washington is a newcomer to the post-season and Cincinnati is pretty close to it with just one post-season appearance in the 2000s. These teams are all very very good and deserving of being favorites but the perception is different.
   8. BDC Posted: August 31, 2012 at 09:26 AM (#4223382)
There are some outstanding position players on the AL contenders, but it does seem that the big beastly stoppers are lacking. Kuroda, Harrison, and Sale are the three division leaders' aces – none of them have much of a track record in the majors or the postseason. David Price has been having an excellent year, but the Rangers have beaten him like a drum the last two Octobers. Verlander is outstanding once again, but the Tigers are on track to miss the playoffs; ditto Weaver and the Angels. The stage is not set for someone to take over and choke his opponents in the postseason (though such stage-settings have a way of not turning out the way they're scripted, of course).
   9. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: August 31, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4223387)
I think all the playoff teams do have holes (though I think Texas is pretty damned close to not having any)

Again, this might be because I just haven't paid as much attention this year, but Texas' starting pitching seems like something the Yankees, for example, would feast upon.
   10. Belfry Bob Posted: August 31, 2012 at 09:36 AM (#4223389)
as the Orioles come to the Bronx for the biggest series so far this season.


Wow.
   11. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 31, 2012 at 10:04 AM (#4223427)
Again, this might be because I just haven't paid as much attention this year, but Texas' starting pitching seems like something the Yankees, for example, would feast upon.


Well the Yankees are third in the AL in runs and second in OPS+ so they feast on most teams' pitching. The Texas pitching is weaker than it was in 2010-2011 certainly but they have an excellent bullpen so they can be a bit aggressive in the post-season.

I think you're onto something though. I suspect that this post-season, maybe more than any other in recent memory, is going to be like a series of boxing matches where the styles truly make the fights.
   12. SoSH U at work Posted: August 31, 2012 at 10:49 AM (#4223504)
Wednesday’s game was absolutely crucial


In what was this game remotely crucial? The Yankees lost, and still lead the AL East by 3 and the wild card race by 4.5.
   13. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: August 31, 2012 at 10:53 AM (#4223512)
The Cardinals look pretty good to me. Their record isn't great, but I don't see a lot of holes. The pen is bad, but they can move a starter to the pen in the postseason. If they get into the playoffs, a repeat title wouldn't surprise me. Furcal's loss won't help though.
   14. Tippecanoe Posted: August 31, 2012 at 10:53 AM (#4223515)
it lacks a "holy crap" team.


Weren't the Phillies last year's "holy crap" team?
   15. The TVerik of Lordly Might Posted: August 31, 2012 at 11:33 AM (#4223572)
I said this on Facebook. If I had told you before the season that:

Four Yankee starters would have DL stints, including CC twice.
Rivera and Gardner wouldn't play 10 games; either of them
The Yankee cleanup hitter as of August 29 is Steve Pearce
Jeter would have one less home run than Alex Rodriguez
Our catcher would hit .195 - BA is overrated, but I simply can't remember an everyday player on a pennant contender with that sort of average
Either Andruw Jones or Raul Ibanez is in the lineup every day, and they're both playing the field a lot
The team is in first place by three games at the end of August, and the Red Sox have exploded and are completely out of it

most Yankee fans would have taken it.
   16. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 31, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4223593)
Our catcher would hit .195 - BA is overrated, but I simply can't remember an everyday player on a pennant contender with that sort of average


Carlos Pena hit .196 in 2010 for the Rays and he's hitting .188 this year.

That's the only sub-.200 comp I could find since 2000 (yay BBRef!). If you stretch it out a bit to sub-.210;

Adam Dunn - .204 in 2012
Dan Uggla - .208 in 2012
Jason Varitek - .209 in 2009

Sluggers and catchers seems to be the way to go. I was eyeballing it but the lowest regular average I could find for a guy who wasn't in one of those categories on a contender was Punto at .228 in 2009.
   17. cardsfanboy Posted: August 31, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4223604)
Sluggers and catchers seems to be the way to go. I was eyeballing it but the lowest regular average I could find for a guy who wasn't in one of those categories on a contender was Punto at .228 in 2009.


I immediately went to Yadier's 2006 when he hit .216 (it's pretty cool that a guy top five in average this year, was that bad at one point in time...drawback of being brought up to soon before his bat reached his glove quality)

I do think it's funny that the article is implying the Yankees are in trouble because CC "isn't an Ace".... not really sure how much having an Ace or three helped out the Phillies. I think writers focus on pitching ace to much in a mistaken belief that they are as important to a teams post season success as a quarterback is to football.
   18. Tippecanoe Posted: August 31, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4223639)
By "Ace" I think the author means someone more like Chris Carpenter, or Orlando Hernandez, or Don Larsen, or maybe Howard Ehmke. Now if C.C. can upgrade to a more hall-of-fame caliber mustache...
   19. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: August 31, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4223641)
it lacks a "holy crap" team.


Weren't the Phillies last year's "holy crap" team?


Yes and they are "wholly crap" this year!
   20. cardsfanboy Posted: August 31, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4223655)
Hasn't CC been the number two pitcher on the Yankees this year? What is wrong with Kuroda being that guy?
   21. Tippecanoe Posted: August 31, 2012 at 12:27 PM (#4223675)
See my post above -- no mustache.
   22. Bob Meta-Meusel Posted: August 31, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4223680)
Well, if you're willing to go back to the '68 Tigers, you get Ray Oyler playing 111 games at SS with a lovely .135/.213/.186 line and playing twice as almost twice as many innings there as Tommy Matchik (.203/.248/.286) or Dick Tracewski (.156/.239/.236). (687.1/.369/339.1 Innings respectively). Admittedly it was 1968, but that's still some impressively poor offense, with OPS+ numbers of 20, 60, and 43.
   23. valuearbitrageur Posted: August 31, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4223691)
Maybe the Yanks can put CC on waivers and see if they can kick in enough money so someone to take him.

According to Barra, a 124 ERA+ while dealing with injuries no ace, especially when he's killing the bullpen by averaging only 7 innings per start and killing the bullpen.

A real ace are guys like Hernandez or Verlander, who don't get hurt so they pile up innings pitching less than 6.5 per game.
   24. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: August 31, 2012 at 12:48 PM (#4223695)
Adam Dunn - .204 in 2012
Dunn has 188 Ks! Tied for 13th most ever! And there's still another game to go in August! I love this!
   25. Tippecanoe Posted: August 31, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4223701)
I love this!

It's better when you just check the BB-Ref page and don't actually have to watch him flail away.
   26. Big fan Posted: August 31, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4223717)
"Instead, Joba gave up a double to Escobar which made it 8-5 and then hit a batter."

I wonder if the author even watched the game. The "Double" was a bloop fly ball to RF that in my opnion any RF except the one out there would have caught. (And darned if I can figure out why Ichiro is in LF and Jones in RF when for the past few years they have been playing the opposite.)

He got a foul pop up behind the plate and one K. So, NO hard hit balls and one can even argue that it bordered on dominant. At least for one game.

Has anyone done a study on whether or not a team with an "ace" does better in the post season? And by ace I mean someone who was an ace before the post-season, not an average guy who turned in an ace performance (e.g., Kenny Rogers). Obviously, having one of those guys is very correlated to winning. is it possible that there really is no real truth and that Koufax tainted everyone's view?




   27. HowardMegdal Posted: August 31, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4223739)
Is anyone actually worried about CC Sabathia? He's been 17/1 K/BB in his two starts since returning.
   28. cardsfanboy Posted: August 31, 2012 at 01:21 PM (#4223745)
Has anyone done a study on whether or not a team with an "ace" does better in the post season? And by ace I mean someone who was an ace before the post-season, not an average guy who turned in an ace performance (e.g., Kenny Rogers). Obviously, having one of those guys is very correlated to winning. is it possible that there really is no real truth and that Koufax tainted everyone's view?


The problem is that most teams do have an ace, so it's going to roughly equal out. In today's game the pen is arguably as important as the starting pitcher for a short series. Baseball is not football, even with an ace performance, you are talking about a guy who figures into 50% of one game out of a minimum of three games, and of course he will usually be facing off against the other teams 'ace equivalent'.


I think when going into the post season, to evaluate the pitching, you have to look at the top three starting pitchers on the team, and the top 4 relievers. Those are the guys that are going to figure into the game when the score is still being contested.
   29. The TVerik of Lordly Might Posted: August 31, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4223748)
This Orioles team is playing the biggest games in this century for the franchise; the biggest games in most of their careers. If the Yankees sweep them (and I've been watching - this Yankee team ain't sweeping anyone), they're six back in September; they're done. If they sweep the Yankees, they're tied for the division lead.
   30. DKDC Posted: August 31, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4223763)
If the Yankees sweep them (and I've been watching - this Yankee team ain't sweeping anyone), they're six back in September; they're done.


If the Os get swept this weekend, their changes at the division go from long shot to no shot. But they'd be, at worst, 1.5 games out of the wild card spot, so their season wouldn't be over.
   31. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: August 31, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4223806)
I'm going to throw my two cents in here and say the playoffs this year will be like they are every year: pretty much a coin flip.
   32. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 31, 2012 at 04:35 PM (#4223993)
If the Yankees need an ace for the postseason, they could always sign Clemens. He still counts, right?
   33. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 31, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4224003)
Weren't the Phillies last year's "holy crap" team?

They were the most dominant team for years and built especially for success in the playoffs, if that's what you mean.
   34. Joey B. Posted: August 31, 2012 at 09:49 PM (#4224174)
And suddenly the lead is down to just 2 games. How are all those little Yankee sphincters feeling right now?
   35. Bruce Markusen Posted: August 31, 2012 at 10:33 PM (#4224196)
Awful performance for the Yankees tonight. Once again, they did nothing against a pitcher they're unfamiliar with, went o-for-4 with runners in scoring position, and received a mediocre game from Kuroda.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
1k5v3L
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOC Register | Former Angels prospect Ryan Bolden shot to death
(2 - 12:06am, Dec 20)
Last: Gonfalon Bubble

NewsblogThe 2015 HOF Ballot Collecting Gizmo!
(120 - 12:03am, Dec 20)
Last: Gonfalon Bubble

NewsblogOT: NBC.news: Valve isn’t making one gaming console, but multiple ‘Steam machines’
(1356 - 11:43pm, Dec 19)
Last: Greg K

NewsblogTrading Justin Upton means the Braves are in full rebuilding mode | Mark Bradley blog
(78 - 11:40pm, Dec 19)
Last: shoewizard

NewsblogJerry Crasnick on Twitter: "Jake Peavy has agreed on 2 yr deal with
(12 - 11:36pm, Dec 19)
Last: 6 - 4 - 3

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - December 2014
(743 - 11:33pm, Dec 19)
Last: King Mekong

NewsblogOT: Politics - December 2014: Baseball & Politics Collide in New Thriller
(5060 - 11:28pm, Dec 19)
Last: Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip

NewsblogAmazin' Avenue - Cohen: Mets and Rockies discussing Troy Tulowitzki deal with Noah Syndergaard as the centerpiece
(34 - 11:22pm, Dec 19)
Last: Banta

NewsblogMax Scherzer not a realistic option, New York Yankees' Randy Levine says - ESPN New York
(68 - 11:20pm, Dec 19)
Last: The TVerik of Lordly Might

NewsblogFull Count » Source: Red Sox close to deal sending Will Middlebrooks to Padres for Ryan Hanigan
(10 - 11:13pm, Dec 19)
Last: The TVerik of Lordly Might

NewsblogThe 4 surprisingly quiet teams of the MLB offseason
(28 - 10:07pm, Dec 19)
Last: SoSHially Unacceptable

NewsblogRoyals sign Kris Medlen to two-year deal - MLB Daily Dish
(32 - 8:20pm, Dec 19)
Last: WSPanic

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 12-19-2014
(10 - 7:47pm, Dec 19)
Last: bobm

NewsblogHow the Rays lost the City Council vote - DRaysBay
(4 - 6:55pm, Dec 19)
Last: RMc is a fine piece of cheese

NewsblogOT: NFL/NHL thread
(9173 - 5:25pm, Dec 19)
Last: Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor

Page rendered in 0.3404 seconds
48 querie(s) executed