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Burns went to Hampshire. I'm not sure of the rest of his bio, but it's not shocking that this crusty hippie is a Sox fan.
Because they secretly hate themselves.
For ####'s sake, Allan, really?
There are only two teams in baseball, right?
Next thing ya know, someone will declare that Doris Kearns Goodwin was a Brooklyn Dodger fan.
This is what I thought as well, but something about the way this was written, while trying to seem humorously clever, just ended up incredibly grating. Maybe it's just me.
Well they do pay for most of the others.
Eh. He's a fan, he's entitled to his opinions, even if they're strong ones. If it infects his work as a historian/documentarian that's another story, but I rather like that he has some passion as a fan.
What the hell.
Well, this was before the internet.
What the hell.
You wanted him to be a Mets fan? That's just mean.
FYP
He grew up in Michigan, I suppose the better question is why is he not a Tigers fan? 1968 would have been right up his alley, yet he didn't even mention it in the original series.
What if you just really hated Jimmy Fallon?
I can't blame the Yankees for hating themselves.
That's funny, because that's how I characterize Red Sox Nation.
Attempts at being humorously clever that miss the mark often end up incredibly grating.
Who else would have hired a shady gambler to follow one of his players around just to get dirt on them?
Sadly, I think we all know of any number of alleged humans who would do something along these lines.
All of whom are Yankee fans.
OK, maybe not.
Really? I don't see it that way at all. The Red Sox are a team that more resembles the coach's pet player, coddled and protected by management, and who managed to complain so loudly and vociferously to their sugar daddy that the superior player blocking their playing time was eventually forced to hit with a cracked bat and run with their shoelaces tied together. Finally entering the game, the umpires called Ball 4 on Strike 5 and then called a series of balks to put the pet on third base, where THEN they claim to have hit a triple.
Underdogs? The Bosox are "underdogs" about as often as Yale is. One needs the Yankees, the other needs Harvard.
Because he's entirely pretentious. He couldn't just go to a few games as a kid, listen to a few games on the radio as a kid, gain an affinity for the team, and have that carry him through life. No. He had to adopt a team that he fancies has the kind of people as fans that he thinks he is, a team with a "tortured" history of struggle against an unfair and random world -- in other words, the type of suffering that people like him, Ken Burns, have had to endure.
Being phony to its core, his fandom is likely quite recent; he probably thinks Sonny Siebert is a Native American tribal leader from frontier days and Danny Cater is either an accompanying course at a fancy restaurant or a sous-chef at the kind of place that has Danny Cater on the menu.
And people wonder why people despise the Red Sox.
His father was a college professor, academics move all over the place-- I'm assuming he grew up in Michigan because dad happened to be teaching there. Maybe his family has New England roots. He attended college in Massachusetts, lives in New Hampshire, and for all I know, has lived in New England for the entire last 40 years or so, so it's not surprising at all that he's a Red Sox fan.
He was born in Brooklyn and graduated from public school in Ann Arbor in 1971. His father was likely a professor at Michigan. Burns was 15 when the Tigers won the World Series, and of course that victory has itself become -- though not of course to the degree of the Red Sox -- one for the poets,(**) what with it "uniting" a city convulsed by riots and strife and Jose Feliciano's stirring intrepretation of The Star Spangled Banner.
Unless he didn't live in Ann Arbor in 1968, he should be a Tiger fan if he's a baseball fan and his adoption of the Red Sox is the fussy choice of a pretentious twit.
(**) If not, as reported upthread, Burns's Baseball.
Or maybe he was just like the tens of thousands of New England college students who get caught up in Red Sox mania and never lose it. What's the big deal? Especially back in the 70's when there were plenty of good cheap seats for day games (which then accounted for nearly half of the home schedule), Fenway Park alone could account for his Red Sox love.
There's no indication at all that this is what happened or that he became a fan in college. And, more to the point, he grew up in an area with a compelling major league team that was very good that played in an interesting stadium (though not Fenway Park). There was plenty of raw material there for a kid, even a precious swan like Burns, to have an affinity for the Tigers -- if he was really a baseball fan.(**)
For your scenario to pan out, he would have changed allegiances to another competitive team in the same division the second he went off to college. Which means he wasn't really a Tiger fan to begin with, which is precisely the point. The equivalent would be me going to school at Georgetown in 1981 and adopting -- of all teams -- the detested Baltimore Orioles. As Taylor Nichols' character notes about the internal inconsistencies of Fourierism in Metropolitan, "It's ... untenable."(***)
(**) Even without the great theme song of 1968: "We're all behind our baseball team // Go Get 'Em Tigers // World Series bound and pickin' up steam // Go Get Em Tigers.... They'll be joy in Tigertown [yadda yadda] // When the Tigers bring the pennant home // Where it belongs." Reprised in the summer of 2006, that song alone was enough to make a local 15-year-old with an ounce of normalcy a committed and loyal fan.
(***) There actually is a narrative arc for even the pretentious, New England wannabes of Burns's age and Michigan roots to adopt, revolving around New England native son Mark Fidrych, arguably the most compelling baseball player-cum-personality of Burns's life, whose life and career was the stuff of actual, not phony, baseball tragedy. Of course Burns, being nothing if not mainstream, goes nowhere near this one.
If The Simpsons ever showed a Red Sox/Yankees game, the server here would explode.
That's funny, because that's how I characterize Red Sox Nation.
No. Red Sox fans either were moved over to third base or were born on third base, depending on when they hopped on board, and think they're still on first base.
There's no indication at all that this is what happened or that he became a fan in college. And, more to the point, he grew up in an area with a compelling major league team that was very good that played in an interesting stadium (though not Fenway Park). There was plenty of raw material there for a kid, even a precious swan like Burns, to have an affinity for the Tigers -- if he was really a baseball fan.(**)
For your scenario to pan out, he would have changed allegiances to another competitive team in the same division the second he went off to college. Which means he wasn't really a Tiger fan to begin with, which is precisely the point. The equivalent would be me going to school at Georgetown in 1981 and adopting -- of all teams -- the detested Baltimore Orioles. As Taylor Nichols' character notes about the internal inconsistencies of Fourierism in Metropolitan, "It's ... untenable."
No offense, SugarBear, but this attempt to conflate the name of the team you root for with some deep character flaw is getting past the point of absurdity. I'm a Yankee fan. You may be a Tigers fan. Lassus is a Mets fan. Lisa is an Astros fan. Nieporent is an Orioles fan. Harvey is a Brewers fan.
And Burns is a Red Sox fan. So what? I mean Jeez, it's like you're rummaging around Ann Arbor looking for his missing birth certificate, looking for some reason to deny him the right to watch any more Tigers games. What's the point?
Unless his parents were Red Sox fans. Lots of people stick with the parents' team even if they themselves grow up somewhere else. You think Bill Simmons's kids will be Dodger fans?
Or maybe he didn't care about baseball then; I know fans, rabid fans, who didn't care about baseball as kids. My brother is one. I was a baseball geek from about age 8, but he didn't care a bit; he got turned onto the game in his mid-30s when he spent a summer restoring an old car in his garage and started tuning into Indians games on the radio to help pass the time. Heck, I know a woman, a passionate Rockies fan, who was born in Hungary during WW2, made her way to the US via South America in the early 1960s, and didn't get into baseball until a few years ago, when she was over 60. Stuff happens.
Or maybe he was a Tigers fan growing up, but when he decided to make his permanent home in New England he switched teams. I know that's frowned upon in some quarters, but it's perfectly understandable to want to root for the team where you live.
I think Red Sox=Stalin. I don't think Stalin's moustache would have been acceptable to the Yankees. Hitler always seemed to keep his moustache well groomed though neither seemed to have much in the way of sideburns in pictures I've seen.
I think we need another megalomaniacal dictator in order to make the soul patch unfashionable. Is that unreasonable of me?
Well, good morning sunshine!
FTR *I* became a Red Sox fan in the winter of 1986 cause I figured a team like that needed my support. They haven't lost a World Series game since!
And i know who Sonny Siebert and Danny Cater are cause
(1)I had their 1973 cards.
(2)Cater had been acquired in the Sparky Lyle trade
(2)Baseball Mogul (they sucked)
Depends work much better.
Red Sox fan from birth in suburban New York. My Lowell, Mass-born but New York-raised dad hauled me home from the hospital in a Red Sox T-shirt in April 1967 (he kept his fandom through quite a few lean years). The idea that you must root for the same team as neighbors do has always perplexed me.
I don't know when Ken Burns or (anyone else for that matter) really got hooked on baseball or why they latch themselves to a particular team. More important, I don't think it generally says a damn thing about them.
Not at all, that's pretty much my story. I was born and grew up in southern Ohio as a Reds fan. Loved them, although they were 3 hours away. Listened on radio, watched on TV, they were all I knew. But growing up in a small town in the middle of nowhere, I'd always wanted to live in a city, and I finally got the chance when I moved to St. Louis for college. Quickly fell in love with the city and everything about it. Got a summer job there so I could stay, went to Cardinals games all summer, and pretty soon I was a fan. (And this wasn't front-running -- this was 1976, the height of the Big Red Machine.) Been a Cardinals fan ever since. When my first post-college move was to a place where I could get KMOX radio but not WLW that cemented it (this was long before the internet, it was pretty hard to follow a distant team). Now 35 years later the Reds are just another team to me. Have lived in Rockies territory since they were formed, so I root for them too. Big deal. People adopt teams for all sorts of reasons, there's nothing wrong with it, and it doesn't mean you weren't a genuine fan of your old team.
My baseball fandom began with the 50s/early 60s Yanks, and especially Mickey (no surprise there!) We (wife, son and I) moved to New England and I was captured as a Red Sox fan by 1975. By the above reasoning, I'm not really a fan, but a fussy pretentious twit.
Oh well, I've been called worse.
The trauma of having a Jersey guy rooting for my beloved Red Sox is almost too much to bear.
Hey! Easy on the Jersey guys. That's where I lived until heading north (hence the Yankee fandom.)
Anyone who seriously doubts that Red Sox = Stalin should take a close look at the flags flying over the Massachusetts State Capitol. If that isn't conclusive proof, I don't know what is.
Yeah, I figured the Yankees for Hitler anyway.
Easy. Yankees are Stalin. The evil empire is a term used to describe both the Yankees and Soviet Union. That makes the Red Sox = Hitler, which fits since he was a nationalist and the Red Sox call themselves a nation.
Then how do you explain those hammer and sickle flags over the Massachusetts statehouse? What more evidence do you need? The closest you might get to linking the Yankees to Hitler is a Nazi youth camp in Long Island, and that's a long way from the Bronx.
C'mon, it was *ANN ARBOR* so I would have to imagine that a good portion of the folks who lived there in 1968 were (a) transplants, or (b) not exactly focusing on pedantic (non-political) topics such as baseball. Winning doesn't always mean anything, anyway...I know enough people who are from the Detroit area who lived through '84 and STILL aren't Tiger fans (oddly enough, many of them ARE Lions fans...must be some brain damage they experienced).
Cubs=Salazar
Marlins=Mugabe
Angels=Mao
So in today's parlance, Burns is a fan of the Braves - a team once owned by an egotistical billionaire who made himself manager. Yep, makes sense.
And it's hard to imagine a whiter/conservative/uptight group than Stanley and Kaline*. And Mclain? Embezzelment? Racketeering? Hell, even his crimes are square. ####, I'll bet even Willie Horton voted for Nixon.
*j/k
Could be. I just know of his work for the Bush I campaign.
It depends on if they are real fans, or bandwagon fans. Now, it is good for a team to have bandwagon fans to boost attendance etc. when things are good. But they are still bandwagon fans.
And Burns is a Red Sox fan. So what? I mean Jeez, it's like you're rummaging around Ann Arbor looking for his missing birth certificate, looking for some reason to deny him the right to watch any more Tigers games. What's the point?
The one I made above, which is that I don't believe Burns really is a Red Sox fan, by any real definition of that term, but rather claims to be to align himself with other "intellectuals" -- which in truth make up about 1/10th of one percent of the Red Sox fanbase.(**) It's a fussy affectation and Burns is a poseur for affecting it.
(**) I'm sure you noted the Times article about Updike and "Hub Fans Bid Kid Adieu" over the weekend. Included in the story were the following words: "Updike’s connection to Williams went back to his childhood in small-town Pennsylvania, where he was unable, he later wrote, to bond with the Phillies and the A’s, which seemed unworthy of his ambitions both for them and for his fannish self." He's John Updike and Ken Burns is ... well, Ken Burns but let's not pretend that there isn't a degree of would-be social climbing in protestations of Red Sox loyalty by the toffs among us. Burns didn't even have the excuse of growing up in a small town, which often alights the imagination to search parts distant for loyalties to grasp.
Reds = Pinochet. Both rely on Cubans for additional firepower.
Twins = Duvaliers. Country boys; second generation less stingy than the first.
Pinochet? Do you mean Allende? Either way it doesn't work. Pinochet wasn't with the Cubans and Allende was elected into office.
Cubs: Mao. Amazingly incompetent but with a considerable population base.
As = Enver Hoxha (obscure but high quality)
Giants = Mussolini (somewhat effective in spite of management)
I'll start the bidding with the Kims of North Korea. The old man there just passed power to his undeserving son, too, which can't be coincidence.
Joe, I admit doing a Depends joke is lame, but it was not a non sequitur
As = Enver Hoxha (obscure but high quality)
Giants = Mussolini (somewhat effective in spite of management)
Steve Garvey = Lenin (responsible for the deaths of my relatives)
"He earned his Bachelor of Arts degree from Hampshire College in Amherst, Massachusetts in 1975,"
So he wasn't there in High School. BFD. Apparently N.E. scholars and pseudo-intellectuals. have to have their fanhood run through the BBTF scanner before gaining admittance. Now I know why Stephen King stuck to horror schlock.
Why the EFF doesn't Spike Brooklyn Dodgers Hat Lee have to pass this muster? ####...I had an Ex-GF who when I met her was a Mets fan, but secretly a Brooklyn Dodgers fan cause she was born in Brooklyn, favored the Braves a little cause she lived in Atlanta, became a Twins fan when she moved to Minnesota and LOANDFUCKINGBEHOLD was a die-hard Yankees fan last year because "That's her city".
"In 1986, security forces discovered 80 tons of weapons at the tiny fishing harbor of Carrizal Bajo, smuggled into the country by the Manuel Rodríguez Patriotic Front (FPMR), the armed branch of the outlawed Communist Party, created in 1983. The shipment of Carrizal Bajo included C-4 plastic explosives, RPG-7 and M72 LAW rocket launchers as well as more than three thousand M-16 rifles.[33] The operation was overseen by Cuban intelligence, and also involved East Germany and the Soviet Union."
While there might -- might -- be today, there was nothing about the Fenway Park atmosphere, circa 1972, that would lead someone to say, "Oh, yes, I've heard about this Base Ball but this ... this is its essence." The park then was barely older than Dodger Stadium is now, and the Red Sox filled it up about what, halfway?
And Burns was plenty old enough to latch on in 1967, when many others did.(**) Nothing about his "fandom" rings true, other than his obvious efforts to affiliate himself with particular people or archetypes.
(**) And as I did with the Knicks and Rangers as a youngster in the 1970s, from afar, when it was plain as day that the fans and the atmosphere were different there than at most/all arenas, particularly ones in the Midwest. In one broadcast, the awful Red Wings scored three softies on Ranger goalie John Davidson in the first period and upon making a simple save on the shot after the third goal, the fans reacted with an ear-piercing sarcastic cheer aimed entirely at poor JD -- the type heard only in New York. In those days of purely spontaneous fan reaction, it wasn't hard for impressionable people with an eye for such things to conclude, "That is how sports fans should react, those are the demands that should be placed on pro athletes" and feel an affinity.
A sure sign that communism was on its last legs when they couldn't even provide an ideologically correct SMG. Kalashnikov would have rotated in his grave if he had been dead then.
One can only assume that the FPMR was trying to overthrow Pinochet, not support him.
What team is Generalissmo Francisco Franco??
The Royals? Hmmm.. they died in 1986, not 1975. That would make them Chernenko or Andropov, not Franco.
Maybe the Washington Senators?
While there might -- might -- be today, there was nothing about the Fenway Park atmosphere, circa 1972, that would lead someone to say, "Oh, yes, I've heard about this Base Ball but this ... this is its essence." The park then was barely older than Dodger Stadium is now, and the Red Sox filled it up about what, halfway?
Red Sox attendance ranks:
1970: 1st of 12
1971: 1st of 12
1972: 2nd of 12
1973: 2nd of 12
1974: 1st of 12
1975: 1st of 12
The overall attendance figures were much lower than those of today, of course, but even drawing 18500 people a game was enough to lead the league in attendance that year. So maybe, compared to some other ballparks of the day, yes there really was something about going to a game at Fenway even in 1972 that might have impressed a guy. Or maybe, like a lot of people, Burns came into his fandom as an adult and fell for the team.
Your efforts to paint Burns as some sort of desperate snobby intellectual due to his rooting choice of team come across, ironically enough, as snobby intellectualism. More importantly, who gives a damn?
The early-70s Sox were annually 1st/2nd in attendance in the AL. That Fenway was not filled every night was a sign of the times more than anything else. It was still more full than the great majority of other ballparks.
I wonder if Burns had gone to Villanova in 1973 and was a Phillies* fan if you'd be ranting about this.**
* - My recollection is you are a Phillies fan, if I'm wrong, insert whatever team you support.
** - My guess is "no."
EDIT: Coke to Smilin' Joe and I added an asterisk I had previously left off
Seriously. We explore some pretty ridiculous stuff here, but running a tracer to unearth the genesis of some nerdy documentarian's baseball rooting interest - and the disdain that is accompanying that search - is really going off the deep end.
I think he's a fan of the team Burnsy spurned.
Growing up in Toronto in the late 80s I was a Chicago Cubs, Houston Astros, Denver Broncos and Hartford Whalers fan. What does that make me? (Besides terrible at picking a winner)
EDIT: Though I guess Denver eventually won. At which time I ditched them for the heroic Jim Harbaugh and his Colts.
1970: 1st of 12
1971: 1st of 12
1972: 2nd of 12
1973: 2nd of 12
1974: 1st of 12
1975: 1st of 12
The overall attendance figures were much lower than those of today, of course, but even drawing 18500 people a game was enough to lead the league in attendance that year. So maybe, compared to some other ballparks of the day, yes there really was something about going to a game at Fenway even in 1972 that might have impressed a guy. Or maybe, like a lot of people, Burns came into his fandom as an adult and fell for the team.
In precisely zero of those years did the Red Sox come within 400,000 of the 2.05 million fans the Tigers -- Burns's hometown team -- drew in 1968. There's no way of knowing other than through anecdote and intuition, but it's likely that the average Tiger crowd was more racially diverse, which should appeal to someone like Burns. There was essentially nothing not to like about the Tiger team and experience for a kid of Burns's age, background and smarts, so either he didn't experience it (unlikely) or he abjured it because he thought professing himself a Red Sox fan would sound better to God Knows Who. It's nothing to really give a damn about, other than we're baseball fans here and it's about baseball. And it does tell us something about a certain type of public "intellectual."
Seriously. We explore some pretty ridiculous stuff here, but running a tracer to unearth the genesis of some nerdy documentarian's baseball rooting interest - and the disdain that is accompanying that search - is really going off the deep end.
I think the "Yankees and Red Sox are the center of the baseball solar system" meme is fair game in whatever guise it appears and a topic of understandable current interest. I certainly enjoy tweaking its most affected manifestations, and The Burns Situation falls safely and snugly into that box.
I have no idea what point you're getting at here, which might be a blessing.
I think it was a reaction against my brother who liked the Athletics and Dallas Cowboys.
Though I do actually love sports pain. My greatest fantasy when I played Little League was to be the greatest pitcher ever, but lose 7 of the World Series 1-0 in the 11th inning or something.
I emigrated to the US from England with my family in 1966, when I was eight years old. I know that both countries share a common language, but believe me, the culture is different, especially if you're eight - and especially if no-one tells your mother that American boys don't wear short pants to school. I shall remember that day the rest of my life.
One of the first things that I really connected with in this country was baseball. I had never played it before, but the other kids seemed willing to give me a chance, perhaps because I was an outsider. I played Little League for two years - right field, of course, because no-one ever hit the ball there. Eventually I learned the rules, and got drawn into the history, and the glamour of the game. It became the first thing about this country that I related to, and loved, on a gut level. I could quote Ted Williams' batting stats when I was in 8th grade- and he retired long before I came here.
Did I mention I live in Seattle? In 1969, when I was 11, the Seattle Pilots played their one and only season in the American League, and what had been an interest turned into a passion. I can remember listening in bed on the radio to an extra-inning game, hoping that my parents wouldn't be able to hear...
I went to only four Pilots' games, but probably listened to 90% of them on the radio. I lived and died with Jerry McNertney, Don Mincher, Tommy Harper, Steve Hovley...and Jim Bouton. When the Pilots left for Milwaukee I was heartbroken. There was no way I was going to root for the thieving Brewers! The only thing to do was pick another team. Ray Washburn, a major-league pitcher of the time, grew up in the next street over from us, and though I had never met him, I decided to root for his team. Washburn had pitched his entire career for the Cardinals, but was traded over the winter of 1969-70 to the Cincinnati Reds, so that became my new team. The first year I rooted for them, they went to the Series, losing to Baltimore in five. (I can remember sneaking off to the gym at school to listen to the radio broadcast of the WS games, where the athletic coaches would let us listen to it.) Having the Reds go to a World Series that first year probably cemented my affection - I've been a die-hard (and that's understating it) Reds fan ever since. I cannot conceive of rooting for another team. Though I follow the Mariners, I'm first and foremost a Reds fan.
The main point remains that I don't believe Burns. The secondary point is his professed Red Sox fandom is based solely on the fact that he sees them as the team he should be a fan of and that being a fan of them means something about him. Both secondary points show him to be bizarre.
This shouldn't take long...
Mets = Rufus T. Firefly
Don't believe him about what? Being a fan of the Red Sox? You're criticizing him for the reason he decided to become a Red Sox fan, doesn't that imply he IS a Red Sox fan?
I don't have a Premiership team, and I'm kind of mulling over who to cheer for. If I were to choose Arsenal because I enjoyed Fever Pitch and was inspired by Colin Firth's character and wanted to pick a team that I felt said something similar about me...then that means I wouldn't REALLY be a fan of Arsenal? Even after twenty years of following them?
(I should note, I am not making my decision based on something as a silly as this...I am leaning towards Wolves because they have a cool sounding name)
Or maybe something just "clicked" in his baseball fandom when he was in college. My brother grew up in this area and he never really became a baseball fan of any sort until college.
Or maybe his roommate was a huge fan.
Or maybe he had access to the games on TV/radio in 1972 in a way that he didn't in 1968.
Or maybe he was focused on other things in 1968, a year that had some other stuff going on in this country.
But of course you are right, the only possible explanaition is that Burns is some sort of weak-minded, pitiful human being.
Like Vaux, I have abandoned teams from cities I moved away from. (I've been with the Rangers for 21 years now :) But my history has certainly left me with preferences if the Rangers aren't playing that day (for the Cubs, Phillies, Yankees, and to a lesser extent the Tigers and Brewers; against the Red Sox, Mets, Cardinals, Orioles, Dodgers). If the Rockies were playing the Royals or something like that I think I might achieve perfect indifference, but that would be rare. I don't think I've ever been indifferent to the World Series, even if it's just to favor one team by a sliver over another.
Edit: Coke or Pepsi, Seabiscuit?
No. The difference is Burns adopting the Red Sox (a) because he thinks it says something about him if he does; and (b) because he thinks it will impress people he wants to impress. The Red Sox likely have more "fans" motivated by these things than every other sports franchise in the world put together.
These are ridiculous reasons, and fundamentally different than, say, me becoming a Spurs fan because I went to one of their games post-18 years old and enjoyed it (and because Arsenal sucks, of course) or becoming a Knicks fan because of Miracle on 33rd Street or because of the myriad of totally understandable and genuine reasons written by others in the thread. I had a very short spell in Pittsburgh as the Bonds teams were getting rolling, became a fan, and three years after moving away found sleep after Game 7 in ATL tougher to come by than perhaps any sporting event in my life.
Your mindreading skills may very well exceed DiPerna's. Congratulations. I didn't think that was possible.
We're talkin' 'bout the 70s, so how about a Tab?
Maybe he enjoyed a trip to Fenway with some college buddies more than he enjoyed a trip to Tiger Stadium with his dad?
Your insistence that you know why he is a Red Sox fan, your desire to condemn him for this reason and your apparent unwillingness to accept any other possible reasons for his fandom is much more elitist than anything Burns has ever said on the topic. At least anything I've seen attributed to him.
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