Since this seems like as good a place to put it as ever, after all the "Oh, Jeter is fading fast!" stuff, he's now hitting .339/.355/.419 since June 25. Assuming he maintains his current AB pace, he'll finish with with 686. He needs 206 hits to finish above .300 on the year, so 93 more hits. So he'll have to bat about .288 the rest of the way.

am I being redundant when I say "arrogant Yankee fans?

If you have to ask....

I don't think anyone, even the most arrogant of Yankee fans...thought the Yankees would be in 1st place in the AL East at the All-Star break.

I have not met a Yankee fan since the mid-90s who wouldn't predict the Yankees would be in 1st place at all critical junctures. It's expected. It's the essence of being a Yankee fan. If you ain't first, you're last.

Certainly not after losing their big stud starter Michael Pineda before the season started

This is revisionist history, I think. I recall a lot of people being skeptical about Pineda, and having questions as to whether he would make the five man. Certainly not a "big stud" view. It helps when you have the equivalent of the "Naked Gun" TV booth competing for the rotation: Sabathia, Kuroda, Nova, Garcia, Hughes, Pineda, Pettitte, and Dr. Joyce Brothers.

Certainly not after losing...Joba Chamberlain, who hasn't pitched all season.

I would have guessed that Chamberlain hadn't had a good year since his first full season, but it turns out his ERA+ was 154 last year--but in only 28 2/3 innings. Still, come on. If the Yankees want middle relief help, they can just go get someone else's closer.

Regardless of how the rest of the division has underperformed, most of the credit has to go to the Yankees.

NOW, Barra is finally understanding what it is to be a Yankee fan.

Jeter hasn't fallen off the cliff, that's for sure. If you asked people at the start of the season whether he'd post an OPS over .750, you'd have probably gotten quite a few people (maybe nearly everyone not a Yankee fan) taking the under. That said, you'd expect older players to get hurt/tail off more in the second half than the first, and he's basically been a league average shortstop (factoring in defense) so it's not like his performance has to drop off a lot before some would argue he's a liability.

Still, being a league average shortstop at his age is pretty ####### impressive. He can't catch Wagner, but if he can eke out a few more league average years at the tail end you can probably start making a very convincing argument for him over the other great shortstops in baseball history.

I would like to meet the guy who thought that the Yankees would fall apart without Mariano Rivera and with Robertson and Soriano as options. Though it would be OK to worry about the postseason closing role. Just dumb to think they would be in trouble in the regular season from that.

meanwhile, this arguably deserves its own thread:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/nyregion/pete-caldera-46-yankees-reporter-and-sinatra-crooner.html?_r=2&smid=fb-share

Alternative headline: "Yankee fans and writers are morons".

Still, being a league average shortstop at his age is pretty ####### impressive. He can't catch Wagner, but if he can eke out a few more league average years at the tail end you can probably start making a very convincing argument for him over the other great shortstops in baseball history.

Not without basically ignoring defense. He's not close to Ripken unless you say they were close to equal in the field, and that's crazytalk.

Not without basically ignoring defense.

Well, I'll admit you'd have to discount the defense to a significant degree, but you wouldn't have to ignore it. Jeter is/was the better offensive player, but your point is taken about the large gap in their statistically measured defense.

And (almost) needless to say, any really high ranking for Jeter is very much a "career" number. He has played an unusual number of games at SS, and very unusually, hasn't been moved off the position (as Ripken was, like many others). He's certainly got a great peak as well, but notably below AROD or Banks during their SS years, and it's hard to make a case for him as a peak great over Vaughan, Cronin, Appling, and perhaps Smith or Larkin or Trammell, or Yount as a SS, especially factoring in defense. Between #10 and #15 as a peak SS would be a very reasonable ranking for Jeter.

You have to be a great player to be in those comparisons, but Jeter is simply not a better ballplayer than those guys. He's a great ballplayer with unique career circumstances. If you like, the Nolan Ryan of shortstops – an amazing and definitely HOF-worthy career, but to see him as the second-best at his position ever is not really tenable.

I have not met a Yankee fan since the mid-90s who wouldn't predict the Yankees would be in 1st place at all critical junctures.

Nice to meet you.

Can we all agree to stop saying "league average," and just cut it down to "average?"

Still, being a league average shortstop at his age is pretty ####### impressive. He can't catch Wagner, but if he can eke out a few more league average years at the tail end you can probably start making a very convincing argument for him over the other great shortstops in baseball history.

I don't see him making up any ground on anyone in this race. Being league average helps the career numbers, but isn't going to improve his standing among the greats. He's already in the middle grouping of top ten of all time, not really sure he has any chance to gain on Ripken, Wagner or Vaughan.

If you factor in games at SS, a reasonable thing to do when ranking shortstops, Jeter does much better than 10-15. Peak value is hardly the best measure of a career. Counting only contributions while playing SS - a reasonable methodology although not the only way of looking at it - easily puts Jeter in the top 5 (where Neyer put him several years ago). Jeter is on pace for 200+ hits this season, so he's still adding to his credentials.

Peak value is hardly the best measure of a career.

It's an extremely important measure of greatness though.

Rusty Staub was not close to being a Hall of Famer, Hughie Jennings is clearly a deserving HoFer. We need to balance peak and career.

I actually think the "Yes, his defense really was THAT bad" crowd--Tango, Guy, Michael Humphreys, etc--have made a pretty strong case over the last few years. If you buy those arguments--and I don't fully, but I have to admit they do seem more compelling than I would have expected--ranking him 10-15 is if anything being generous to him.

This is revisionist history, I think. I recall a lot of people being skeptical about Pineda, and having questions as to whether he would make the five man. Certainly not a "big stud" view. It helps when you have the equivalent of the "Naked Gun" TV booth competing for the rotation: Sabathia, Kuroda, Nova, Garcia, Hughes, Pineda, Pettitte, and Dr. Joyce Brothers.

No, there was no doubt that he was going to be in the rotation, if anything it was maybe the question of if it was Hughes or Garcia, but I think there was just as little doubt that Hughes would make it, both of them clearly had a leg up on Garcia, and Pettitte wasn't even in the picture at the time. I don't think people were saying that he was a "big stud," but certainly a no. 5 at the least.

I would have guessed that Chamberlain hadn't had a good year since his first full season, but it turns out his ERA+ was 154 last year--but in only 28 2/3 innings. Still, come on. If the Yankees want middle relief help, they can just go get someone else's closer.

Sorry to be "that guy," but this is an outdated view of how the Yankees do things, certainly not when Cashman is allowed to have his druthers, and when the Yankees do go on a spending binge, at any given time there are 3 or 4 other teams who are willing to do close to the same.

Sorry to be "that guy," but this is an outdated view of how the Yankees do things, certainly not when Cashman is allowed to have his druthers, and when the Yankees do go on a spending binge, at any given time there are 3 or 4 other teams who are willing to do close to the same.

I don't know, does signing the AL saves leader to be the 8th inning guy in January of last year count as "outdated?" That was the last time the Yankees went out and deliberately targeted relief help, wasn't it? I certainly didn't mean that they go get a new closer every year, but Soriano was not long ago. Maybe to a Yankees fan used to expecting immediate results, that's outdated. I've never rooted for a team with deep pockets or a perpetually short time horizon, so Soriano would still count as recent in my worldview.

I don’t think anyone, even the most arrogant of Yankee fans—am I being redundant when I say “arrogant Yankee fans? - thought the Yankees would be in 1st place in the AL East at the All-Star break. Certainly not after losing their big stud starter Michael Pineda before the season started and Mariano Rivera shortly after, not to mention the loss of Brett Gardner, who played just 9 games, and Joba Chamberlain, who hasn’t pitched all season.

I don't think these losses are anything horrifyingly unusual. Red Sox lost Ellsbury and Bailey, Evan Longoria's played in 23 games, etc.

ZiPS for one, just thought Pineda would be *OK* in Yankee Stadium, had already cut his innings way down, and the final projection for the Yankees going into the season was 93-69, with a 48% chance to win the division. Maybe ZiPS was too optimistic about the Yankees going in and the Yankees have just been more fortunate, but is thinking they'd be in first actually *crazy*.

i think this community sounds stupid when we claim that jeter was a horrible defensive shortstop given that:

--flies in the face of how he has been perceived by his peers/other baseball people his entire career
--that in his career he was and is one of the smartest players in baseball
--he was in the center of the action of what could easily be argued was the best team in baseball over the past 15 years
--he's still playing an every day ss at age 38 and he's not embarrassing himself by any stretch. there are no willie mays moments here

i want to believe in the metrics. and i understand the origins of how jeter is assessed

but i think jeter and the metrics clash and we are missing something

If you factor in games at SS, a reasonable thing to do when ranking shortstops, Jeter does much better than 10-15. Peak value is hardly the best measure of a career. Counting only contributions while playing SS - a reasonable methodology although not the only way of looking at it - easily puts Jeter in the top 5 (where Neyer put him several years ago). Jeter is on pace for 200+ hits this season, so he's still adding to his credentials.

Peak value matters. No one knows this better than Jeter. To get a full measure of his career, I think you also have to look at the number of women that Jeter dated when they were at peak value: Carey, Lima, Guerra, Alba, Biel, Brewster, Kelly. That seems to me to be prima facie evidence of his range and good hands. Combine that with the World Series rings, the 3200 hits and the 5 gold gloves, and you're talking inner circle HOF.

I do think that the non-Sabermetric consensus will have Jeter as the 2nd best shortstop of all time. The signature plays (The Flip, The Dive), the Gold Gloves, and all the long throws from deep in the hole are what most people will take note of with respect to his defense, not defensive statistics that are regarded as esoteric by all but the baseball statistics cognoscenti. I guess we'll see in 7 or 8 years, when the HOF vote comes in. While percentages have fluctuated over time, Ripken falls into the loftier percentages some more recent first-year inductees have received. I think Jeter will eclipse Ripken's 98.5%, and I would argue that's a reasonable way to judge where Jeter is perceived to rank among shortstops.

The headline reads like he has been cribbing notes from Replacement Level Yankee Weblog game chatters.

HW - I think a big part of it is that Jeter "looks" like a great defensive player. In fairness I would love to have him as a teacher on how to play shortstop. He is incredibly smart out there and rarely makes errors. If he gets to a ball, he makes the play full stop.

The problem is that his range is not good. I think people who say the metrics are wrong are interpreting "sucks" as being Gary Sheffield at shortstop, kicking the ball around, airmailing throws to first base, etc...The inability to get a ground ball that is more than a few steps away is a big part of being a shortstop. It doesn't look bad when it just bounces into centerfield "it's a clean single for Ortiz" but it is as important as booting a ground ball.

If Derek Jeter's defense were an offensive player it would be Jeff Francoeur. He looks great out there, every movement looks practiced and smooth and the swing is beautiful. If he gets a pitch in the middle of the strike zone he hits it 450 feet. The problem is pitches are often in the dirt or at his eyes and swinging at those leaves him hitting .230. Jeter's defense is the equivalent of a hitter who looks good but hits .230.

All that said, the variance between a great defender and a poor one is smaller than the variance in hitters. Jeter is unquestionably (in my opinion) a top five shortstop all time. His contributions certainly put him there. I don't think it's any more unreasonable to say Derek Jeter is a highly valuable shortstop who happens to be bad at defense any more than it is to say that Ozzie Smith was a highly valuable shortstop who had no power (Tom Niedenfeur pitches notwithstanding).

I don't know, does signing the AL saves leader to be the 8th inning guy in January of last year count as "outdated?" That was the last time the Yankees went out and deliberately targeted relief help, wasn't it? I certainly didn't mean that they go get a new closer every year, but Soriano was not long ago. Maybe to a Yankees fan used to expecting immediate results, that's outdated. I've never rooted for a team with deep pockets or a perpetually short time horizon, so Soriano would still count as recent in my worldview.

Yes, but that move was actively opposed by Cashman, Randy Levine kind of forced it on him.

And to respond to 18, Jeter may well be a very lousy defender, and it may not necessarily be that the metrics aren't that misleading, but more importantly - who cares? Is he not still a great player? To say that he has 3,200 hits and counting as a continuously productive shortstop and that yet that doesn't rank him as at least the top 10 or 15 shortstops of all time is just stupid - I love sabermetrics, love them to death, but when you start to talk about "greatest," if you're choosing to use vague words like that, I think it's a huge mistake to add up WAR totals and leave it at that. As an influential player, as a famous player, as the center of famous teams, as an era-defining player, and as a damn good hitter, Jeter deserves 10-15 at least. I don't think you should be afraid of legends, even when the stats show some blemishes. The blemishes are interesting and should be pointed out, but a player's place in a history - how they're viewed by baseball culture - shouldn't be tarnished because it turns out that according to how we often now rank players, they aren't as good as history thought they were.

jose

i agree that jeter has had his defensive limitations. i would assess him over the course of his career as below average because of the range.

but that isn't horrible

and i reiterate you cannot underestimate intelligence in the middle of the field.

betancourt is my idea of a guy who is a horrible shortstop and it's unfathomable to me why major league clubs keep running him out there. not to mention he is a head case and doesn't give consistent effort. and that is being kind.

Also, for the record, I think Jeter's flip is possibly the greatest defensive play of all time.

I would like to meet the guy who thought that the Yankees would fall apart without Mariano Rivera and with Robertson and Soriano as options.

Or who thought that Eppley and Rapada would have any problem filling those innings

I do think that the non-Sabermetric consensus will have Jeter as the 2nd best shortstop of all time.

Depends what you mean by "non-Sabermetric consensus". If you mean Jon Heyman-esque baseball writers who are skeptical of sabermetrics but aware of it, then yeah, that group of baseball lifers will hopefully at least know enough to have Wagner 1st. But if by "non-Sabermetric consensus" you mean "the world at large"... I would say Jeter will be the best ever according to that group. Honus Wagner, who for whatever reason has come to be remembered more as a baseball card than as a top-10 all-time player, would have no chance to win a popular ballot. Heck, I don't think Honus beat Clemente as the greatest Pirate when MLB did that exercise a couple years back. If anything, Ozzie Smith might be the guy challenging Jeter if you did a nationwide poll.

And even the few fans who thought the Yankees would survive those catastrophes and contend for the top spot certainly didn’t think they would be in front by a whopping 7 games.

Fans tend to be optimistic until given a reason to change their minds. This is not limited to Yankee fans. Look at the pre-season predictions/posts. Or the Johnny Spreadsheet types consistently suggesting their team is actually better than its poor record.

I think the surprise isn't the Yanks record but that the other AL East contenders have played below expectations.

Depends what you mean by "non-Sabermetric consensus".

By this, I am thinking reasonably informed fans/media who care enough to at least think about baseball history. The kind of thinking that leads to the MLB All-Century Team, or the 1976 Topps Sporting News All-Time All-Stars (connected to pro baseball's centennial, I believe). It will be Wagner first, then Jeter.

Seriously, anyone who is fighting the notion that Jeter is a top five all-time shortstop is missing the big picture. He's a guy you want to be sure your kids see play baseball, so they can tell their kids. He may well be THE guy like that right now. And I'm saying this as someone who has never been annoyed by anything more, in baseball, than Jeter's "move my penis out of the way" thing on any pitch that is at all inside.

the MLB All-Century Team

The voting on this, BTW, was:

1. Cal Ripken Jr., 669,033
2. Ernie Banks, 598,168
3. Ozzie Smith, 589,025
4. Honus Wagner, 526,740

He's a guy you want to be sure your kids see play baseball, so they can tell their kids. He may well be THE guy like that right now.

Guh? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this, but I'm telling my kids how Albert Pujols made me a fan of baseball, literally overnight.

#30 Is that true? I'd like to hear that story.

He's a guy you want to be sure your kids see play baseball, so they can tell their kids. He may well be THE guy like that right now.

Guh? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this, but I'm telling my kids how Albert Pujols made me a fan of baseball, literally overnight.

My assumption is that you are being intentionally dense (in order to be contrary) in your ability to read "a guy" and "may well be THE guy" and think I mean that excludes Pujols. But I'll play along. Pujols is another person that comes to mind, of course. There is also a chance that Pujols is Jimmie Foxx--which is a pretty great thing to be, but it's not what we hope for from him. If he is Jimmie Foxx and more or less done building a HOF resume before 35, congratulations on seeing him earlier and becoming a baseball fan. Welcome, and I hope the game brings you great joy.

I want my sons to see Aroldis Chapman, R.A. Dickey, Billy Hamilton, etc. But I think the "must take your kids to see list," the checklist is:
- Future Hall of Famer
- Is the guy that the other dads are pointing out to their sons
- Will likely be talked about and revered for many years to come
- Plays the game "the way it's meant to be played"...
- ...yet plays the game with signature aplomb

I think bonus points for handling self with dignity (which would kick Babe Ruth out, so that's probably a bad criterion), and being primarily identified with one team. I would say that Pujols has tarnished his legacy with the move to the Angels, but I don't blame him for it. Legacies don't buy private jets.

So who will people really boast about seeing play live? Could someday be Verlander, Trout, Harper, Ellsbury, but if you look at HOF eligibles, will significant numbers of people really brag 30-40 years from now about having the chance to see A-Rod, or Roy Halladay, or Jim Thome play? I think the short list is Ichiro, Jeter, and Pujols. It's hard to say how we'll view steroids in years to come-maybe I am wrong about A-Rod.

Jeter is essentially a durable Larkin. Jeter's actually the better hitter but I think we all agree gives at least some of that back on defense. But fairly similar players -- high BA, solid BB rates, decent power for a SS, lots of steals and good baserunners. Larkin was still playing SS at 40 to boot (and not embarrassing himself at 39). WAR rates Jeter's defense as so bad that, despite 2500 more PA and 160 more Rbat, he has only 1 more WAR than Larkin and Larkin beats him easily in WAA (42 to 33).

Of course we don't know how much the injuries sapped Larkin's talent and performance. From ages 24-35 (12 seasons but only about 10 seasons worth of PA), Larkin had 61 WAR. But he added very little outside of that window (which could be normal decline or could be faster than normal due to the accumulative effects of injury). Anyway, a truly durable Larkin is probably substantially better than Jeter.

Can we all agree to stop saying "league average," and just cut it down to "average?"

I can support this but it's a funny thing for me. When I hear "average SS" I immediately think we're talking defense; when I hear "league average" I immediately think we're talking overall.

Walt's post has me firmly believing that when Jeter's eligibility for the HOF comes up, there'll be a huge contingent of fans and pundits who'll claim he was simply a very good hitter who benefitted greatly from the city and circumstances he played in and not really deserving of a plaque.

I keep meaning to trademark my longtime description of Jeter as "gracefully slow."

He LOOKS like he's a pretty good defensive player, even though he generally hasn't been.
If the same ball is hit to five MLB SSs, the other four are liable to reaction a fraction of a second (or a whole second?) quicker toward the ball. That's why they get to the same ball that goes pastadivingJeter.

I think Harvey's list reasonably states the case as to why it's difficult to believe Jeter is a bad defensive SS. I would say that it's possible that the Yankees have had such good starting pitching over that span - many of them with good K ability and/or fly ball tendencies that lessens Jeter damage - and enough good, expensive bats that this overcomes Jeter's shortcomings.

As to where Jeter ranks overall, I'm still shrugging. It's a tough call.

By this, I am thinking reasonably informed fans/media who care enough to at least think about baseball history. The kind of thinking that leads to the MLB All-Century Team, or the 1976 Topps Sporting News All-Time All-Stars (connected to pro baseball's centennial, I believe). It will be Wagner first, then Jeter.

That wouldn't surprise me at all. I'd bet about half that group won't even have heard of Arky Vaughan.

I'd bet about half that group won't even have heard of Arky Vaughan.

The Arky Vaughan who never played 100 games at shortstop after age 28? There is a reason that his name doesn't come up in those conversations.

i want to believe in the metrics. and i understand the origins of how jeter is assessed

but i think jeter and the metrics clash and we are missing something

Click here, all star first inning highlight. Not Ms Albright

Go to the 42 second mark and watch the "phenomenal" play by Jeter. It's literally 4 baby steps to his right that he barely gets to, makes his stupid ass hop throw... and they act like it could have been a great play. It was a play a 12 year old makes that Jeter couldn't get his reaction time to the point to field the ball without ranging deep in the hole.

I'm sorry, but anyone who watches Jeter in the field and is being honest, knows his defense is horrendous. It doesn't require advanced metrics to see what is right in front of you.

Jeter is the worst player of all time. He should be flogged. He ranks behind Orlando Cabrera and a bag of wheat. Happy? Now we don't need any more threads about what a blight on the game he is.

First of all, I appreciate some poetic license, but 12 year olds can't make that play. But that's irrelevant - that's just you trying to make it seem worse than it is, but yes, most major league shortstops do make that play better. As I said before, I think that Jeter's defense IS probably about as bad as most sabermetricians say it is - but that doesn't mean he's not intelligent in the field. One example doesn't make a rule, but like I said before, Jeter's flip, I think, is probably the greatest combination of drama, athleticism, quick-thinking, and intelligence ever seen in a defensive play. More to the point, just because Jeter's a lousy defender doesn't mean that suddenly he's not in the top 10, let alone 15 shortstops of all time.

, but 12 year olds can't make that play.

I was going to say a 12 year old with a strong arm but decided against it. I know at 12 years old I would have had that ball, because unlike Jeter, I was taught you don't range backwards to field a ball....and my reaction time would have been measured using the decimal on the stop watch, instead of just raw seconds like Jeters. Of course growing up, I would have probably needlessly dived for the ball and I didn't have the arm to make it in that case. :)

It's baffling how people can watch a play like that and still think that Jeter is a capable major league defensive shortstop. Of course Joe Buck watched it and called it phenomenal....let's hope he was just juicing the talk up for excitement and not that he actually thought that was a good play or an example of range. (I know New Yorkers don't have a good comp to use as a comparison for range, as even Rey Ordonez range was slightly above average, but massively overrated by the New York media)


I'll give you the brains part, he's a baseball general and is aware of the diamond, but his reactions and range is non-existent.

I would like to meet the guy who thought that the Yankees would fall apart without Mariano Rivera and with Robertson and Soriano as options.

My bar opens tomorrow at the regular time.

"12 year olds can't make that play"?
When I coached Little League, I had a 9 year old on one of my teams who made that play.
I'll admit I was shocked, but I did see him range to his right, grab the ball in the hole, and get a jump-throw off to nip the runner at 1b.
Don't know what happened to that kid, but I've always assumed he played enough other sports to never really get good at any one of them, and probably doesn't play at all now.

More to the point, just because Jeter's a lousy defender doesn't mean that suddenly he's not in the top 10, let alone 15 shortstops of all time.

This is my take on the issue.

If we didn't have Yankee Clapper and SteveF putting forward the argument that he was the best shortstop OF ALL TIME, there would be a lot less harping on Jeter's poor defense.** I know that fans of Jeter like rconn in #41 get pissed off that every discussion of Jeter has to include so many comments on the only thing in baseball that Jeter wasn't really great at. If I were a Jeter fan, I'd want to make lots of ocmments about all the things he was great at to even it out. It's understandable. I just think it's also understandable that when YC and his ilk start making the argument that Jeter was better than Cal Ripken and Arky Vaughan, Jeter's defense becomes a central topic of conversation.

**To be fair, yeah, there would still be some harping anyway.

makes his stupid ass hop throw

I really wish people would stop with this already. Jeter did not invent the jump throw, and he is not the only major league SS, past, present, or future, who uses it. He might like it a little too much for his own good, but that's another matter. OTOH, he made a play in the hole the other night by planting his right foot and throwing in the more conventional manner.

Also, on a LL field, that ASG ball isn't even hit to the shortstop -- it's past the third baseman before any fielder moves a muscle.

Now I'm going to be part of the "harping" problem, though I'm going to try to bring it back around...

The jump throw is a perfectly normal and useful baseball play. The issue is that the jump throw is a play you only should use when you're not able to range behind the ball before you play it. Jeter's use of the jump throw, especially during the bad years earlier in the last decade, demonstrated his relative lack of range.

It is kind of amazing how Jeter re-made himself into a better defensive player in his 30s. There were a lot of stories about his new workouts and his recognition that he needed to improve his defense. I think it's pretty cool that he pulled it off - speaks both to his work ethic and to his baseball intelligence.

Jeter did not invent the jump throw, and he is not the only major league SS, past, present, or future, who uses it

Larry Bowa was very fond of that throw on Astroturf fields, where ground balls accelerated into the hole in a hurry. Bowa didn't do the full leap into the air like Brad Pitt as Achilles, but he would spring back on the balls of his feet and sort of hop forward with both feet, while heaving the ball to first base. Didn't always work, but it was his best chance at a play.

Jumpin' Joe Sheehan Tweets...

By basically every viable metric we have, Alex Rodriguez is having a better year than Derek Jeter.

Is "Gift Baskets Distributed" a viable metric?

If we didn't have Yankee Clapper and SteveF putting forward the argument that he was the best shortstop OF ALL TIME, there would be a lot less harping on Jeter's poor defense.

I'm not aware of anyone claiming Jeter should be ranked higher than Wagner, and I haven't made that claim, although I probably remarked that Jeter was likely to end up with more hits. The fact is that the folks low balling Jeter's performance now have (mostly) done so from the days of Olde Primer, saying he wasn't that good, didn't deserve to be an All-Star, wasn't really a full-fledged member of the "Holy Trinity" of AL shortstops, wouldn't be a Hall of Famer, wouldn't be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer - retreating hill by hill as Jeter's performance proved them wrong. There are plenty of folks outside of BBTF that rank Jeter in the top 5 shortstops of all time, some have him ahead of Ripken & Vaughan (who had an awfully short career to be ranked that high). Most of the folks carping about Jeter would not be doing so if he wore another team's uniform, IMHO.

By basically every viable metric we have, Alex Rodriguez is having a better year than Derek Jeter.

His point is? A-rod is two years younger and paid twice as much and we're supposed to be give him credit for outpacing an old SS by half a win?

i am really glad about sheehan career path since he tied himself to an organization that is on the downslope and therefore his articles are becoming more irrelevant with each passing day.

a baseball world where joe sheehan is marginalized and eventually ignored is a better place

The fact is that the folks low balling Jeter's performance now have (mostly) done so from the days of Olde Primer, saying he wasn't that good, didn't deserve to be an All-Star, wasn't really a full-fledged member of the "Holy Trinity" of AL shortstops, wouldn't be a Hall of Famer, wouldn't be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer - retreating hill by hill as Jeter's performance proved them wrong.

Who are these folks? I can't say I've ever met them, either at Ye Olde Primer or the modernized production facility of baseball thinking it became.

There are plenty of folks outside of BBTF that rank Jeter in the top 5 shortstops of all time, some have him ahead of Ripken & Vaughan (who had an awfully short career to be ranked that high). Most of the folks carping about Jeter would not be doing so if he wore another team's uniform, IMHO.

The "some have him ahead of Ripken and Vaughan" is precisely why there's always pushback. Unless you ignore at least one of defense or peak, the case for Jeter over Ripken or Vaughan is exceptionally weak.

I think Jeter's a top 10 shortstop all time. I wish that were enough for his fans.

The "some have him ahead of Ripken and Vaughan" is precisely why there's always pushback.

Vaughan didn't play 100 games at SS after age 28 and his career was essentially over after his age 31 season. Ripken had a 97 OPS+ after age 30. Reason enough that their rankings are not unassailable if measuring careers at SS. It is hardly "settled science" that Ripken and Vaughan will rank above Jeter, who may not be done putting up 200+ hit seasons.