It's also interesting to note here how few people have hats here, in direct contrast to when his Grandfather threw out a first pitch.

Although I do note he's throwing from the seats. Is this typical? For some reason I thought presidents took the mound, obviously under heavy detail.

So when did Presidents start taking to the mound? JFK is throwing from the stands here, obviously, and here is Ford doing the same.

Meanwhile, by the time we get to Reagan, he's out on the mound, where Presidents have been ever since. So was Reagan, the old baseball announcer, the first guy to do it, or did Carter start the tradition?

Although I do note he's throwing from the seats. Is this typical?

Traditionally the first pitch was always thrown from the seats. I don't know when they started doing it from the mound.

What a different time...seeing the president throw out the first ball from his seat location, not the pitcher's mound...wearing his regular work attire, not a Senators jacket. (And at D.C. Stadium, a place that before decade's end would be renamed for his brother.)

Hard to believe 46 years have passed since that awful day in Dallas. I just did an entry on my classic Hollywood blog about the Texas Theatre in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, where Lee Harvey Oswald was apprehended. The Texas Theatre, at "Carole & Co."

Incidentally, today at 1:30 (Central), the Texas will show "Cry Of Battle," part of a double feature playing the theater that day.

It's also interesting to note here how few people have hats here, in direct contrast to when his Grandfather threw out a first pitch.

Interesting as well in that the prevailing theory is that is was JFK himself, whose vanity about his hair and his good looks (and his political acumen to find an extra way to stand out) led him to eschew wearing a hat though the 1950s, that was a major cause in the sudden and dramatic reduction in American men wearing hats between the '50s and '60s.

This would have been the first All-Star Game that year (July 10, 1962); the second occurring approximately three weeks later, July 30, at Wrigley Field. 1962 would be the last year of the practice (begun in 1959) of having two All-Star Games per season.

Maury Wills, a DC native, would be voted the game's MVP. Wills entered the game as a pinch-runner for Stan Musial, stayed in at shortstop, and scored two runs.

You can see LBJ in the photo, to Jack's right (directly underneath his hand). The photo's connection to today is (of course) that it was 46 years ago that LBJ became U.S. President, upon the assassination of JFK.

The "24" leading off for the National League was Dick Groat, then with the Pirates. My first guess would have been Willie Mays, the subject of yesterday's photo, but Willie batted third that day.

DB

Hmmm, I wonder if that's why they call it throwing out the first pitch, instead of just throwing the first pitch. Originally, you through the ball that was to pitched out to the mound, so that it could be pitched by a pitcher?

Aside from today's date, the picture is somewhat timely for me, as I am currently reading The Best and the Brightest.

that was a major cause in the sudden and dramatic reduction in American men wearing hats between the '50s and '60s.

Thank heavens President Draper got elected!

I wuz there, in the last row of the upper deck in center field! And then after the game I snuck into the press box and stole an armful of stat sheets. I was a very low grade thief.

Interesting as well in that the prevailing theory is that is was JFK himself, whose vanity about his hair and his good looks (and his political acumen to find an extra way to stand out) led him to eschew wearing a hat though the 1950s, that was a major cause in the sudden and dramatic reduction in American men wearing hats between the '50s and '60s.

I've heard this all the time and it seems to have a lot of truth to it. And just imagine what might have happened to the memorabilia industry (which didn't exist then, but we can pretend that it did) if Kennedy had worn a baseball cap.

The "24" leading off for the National League was Dick Groat, then with the Pirates. My first guess would have been Willie Mays, the subject of yesterday's photo, but Willie batted third that day.

IIRC, Mays led off the 1965 All-Star game at Minnesota.

Did Rich Ashburn, then with the Mets, get to play in this game? Just curious; we know Stan Musial did, and his career dated back to 1941. Perhaps some rookie who played at RFK in 2007 (Jesus Flores?) will have a long career. (I was going to note that Ashburn might have been back at RFK in '87 for a Phillies-Mets exhibition game, but I believe his daughter had just died in an automobile accident and he was attending to her funeral.)

Did Rich Ashburn, then with the Mets, get to play in this game?

No

DB

Interesting as well in that the prevailing theory is that is was JFK himself, whose vanity about his hair and his good looks (and his political acumen to find an extra way to stand out) led him to eschew wearing a hat though the 1950s, that was a major cause in the sudden and dramatic reduction in American men wearing hats between the '50s and '60s.

You can see that there still are some people with hats, not many, but a few.

It's also said that Kennedy, with his bad back (which was always a problem for him, and was further worsened during PT109's ill-fated accident), popularized the rocking chair. An interesting note is that Kennedy very well may have been the most physically troubled president since FDR. At times he wore a brace. In fact, he was wearing it in Dallas, and it's believed that he might have survived had he not been wearing it, as he would have slumped, causing the final shot to miss (instead, it hit him in the head).
--

Oh, the two young boys in front are members of a Washington Boys' Club.

Have to say that to me James Dean and Marlon Brando would be two far more probable hatlessness trailblazers than JFK.

John Kennedy and the great hat decline.

In short, hatlessness was already trendy when Kennedy became President. Eisenhower was often without hat. And Kennedy did wear a hat for special occasions, including the entirety of his inauguration except his speech.

In short, hatlessness was already trendy when Kennedy became President.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that JFK's typical hatlessness through the 1950s hadn't already been a signficant contributor to the change in fashion that had taken place by 1961. JFK was an extremely famous figure before he ran for President.

An interesting note is that Kennedy very well may have been the most physically troubled president since FDR.

There's no "may have been" about it. Kennedy was a physical wreck in about ten different ways, constantly in and out hospitals throughout his life, narrowly escaping death several times.

Of the 19 MLB ballparks in existence when JFK died -- the Dodgers and Angels shared a stadium in 1963 -- only three are still in use (Fenway, Wrigley and Dodger). No fewer than 37 new MLB stadiums have opened in the last 46 years.

Jamie Moyer was four days past his first birthday on November 22, 1963. Randy Johnson was two months old. And Roger Clemens' wife as a baby was taken by her parents to watch the Dallas motorcade.

There's no "may have been" about it. Kennedy was a physical wreck in about ten different ways, constantly in and out hospitals throughout his life, narrowly escaping death several times.

And yet he remains in the popular perception the epitome of youth and vitality, while President Ford- undisputably the most athletic president of the second half of the 20th century (Number retired at Michigan! The Secret Service had to hire world-class skiers in order to keep up with him on the slopes! Had hle-in-one during a pro-am!)- is considered a bumbling klutz in the Zeitgeist.

Also in the photo are Speaker of the House John McCormack (two to the left of LBJ, mouth open) & Larry O'Brien (second from right edge of photo, with sunglasses) who later became NBA Commissioner but was then Postmaster General.

There's no "may have been" about it. Kennedy was a physical wreck in about ten different ways, constantly in and out hospitals throughout his life, narrowly escaping death several times.

It's entirely conceivable that even if JFK hasn't been assassinated in 1963, he may have died of natural causes while in office from any number of ailments.

It's entirely conceivable that even if JFK hasn't been assassinated in 1963, he may have died of natural causes while in office from any number of ailments.

And in that alternate reality, there are even more conspiracy theories.

In short, hatlessness was already trendy when Kennedy became President. Eisenhower was often without hat. And Kennedy did wear a hat for special occasions, including the entirety of his inauguration except his speech.

I grew up in the 50's and 60's, and it was only in the early 60's that the homburg began to disappear from public life. It certainly wasn't "trendy" to go hatless before that. Whether that had much to do with Kennedy, who knows, although it was certainly mentioned at the time. But then I was in Washington, where if Kennedy sneezed the entire city caught cold.

That said, those pictures on that snopes link don't really tell the story of why that "urban myth" (if it was a myth) originated. If you look at all the photos, it's true that only during the speech was JFK hatless.

But what snopes doesn't mention (or didn't realize) are three key facts:

1. It was witches-tit cold in DC that day.

2. The vast majority of people who saw Kennedy that day on TV saw him during the speech. During the parade, the cameras were mostly focusing on the marchers

3. And right before Kennedy's speech, Robert Frost delivered a poem and appeared to be visibly affected by the windy cold, a point noticed by the TV commentators

Put those three facts together, and it's not surprising that JFK's hatlessness on the podium stood out in many people's minds as a symbol of youthful vigor. And you know how youthful vigor is never really out of season among the fashion-aware.

And besides, JFK was wearing a top hat, not a homburg. Old man Ike frequently was seen in a homburg, but nobody ever saw JFK wear one. And it was the homburg that disappeared in the 60's. Top hats were only ever worn on special occasions.

it was the homburg that disappeared in the 60's

The homburg and the fedora. And the disappearance took place roughly between 1955 and 1965.

Well, if it's any consolation, I wear a hat these days. So if anyone wants to join with me in bringing them back, I'm behind it.

And yet he remains in the popular perception the epitome of youth and vitality, while President Ford- undisputably the most athletic president of the second half of the 20th century (Number retired at Michigan! The Secret Service had to hire world-class skiers in order to keep up with him on the slopes! Had hle-in-one during a pro-am!)- is considered a bumbling klutz in the Zeitgeist.

Hopefully, a lesson on the distinction between image and reality.

And as for Ford -- the most athletic president of the second half of the 20th century? Who in the first half compares? Who in the history of the office? Washington, maybe?

President Ford ... is considered a bumbling klutz in the Zeitgeist.

Falling down in public on numerous occasions will do that for you.

I've read that although Kennedy rarely wore a hat, he often carried one. Don't know if that's BS or not, but I find the hats on the railing in the photo interesting for this reason.

(And at D.C. Stadium, a place that before decade's end would be renamed for his brother.)

It's widely agreed that RFK was a horrible ballpark for baseball. (I never attended a game there. My question to those who've read about it or perhaps some (Andy?) went to ballgames at it is: Was Griffith Stadium, which was replaced by RFK in 1962, a good baseball park? I would imagine, because it was quite small, Griffith was good for fans to see the game. I know it was very old by 1961. I think Griffith was built in the 19th Century. Was it so run down that it had to be replaced for that reason?

History of the office? Bush the Elder was pretty athletic, and seems to still be for a guy in his late eighties.

First half of the twentieth century? I dunno, maybe TR?

Look at that brand new park! Let's go and build a whole bunch of those, gentlemen!

Having grown up in DC, I heard many folks talk about Griffith Stadium. The most universal comment was about the smell. The pleasant smell. There was a Wonder Bread factory just up the street.

Bush the Elder was pretty athletic, and seems to still be for a guy in his late eighties.

Good call, but I don't think Bush's status as a college baseball player compares with Ford's as a college football player. Ford was a serious star.


I dunno, maybe TR?

Obviously it's hard to compare riding-and-roping athleticsm with ball-sports athleticsm ... but I don't know how accurate this is, but my sense of TR is that he was an eager participant in physical stuff, but not an especially accomplished one.

It's widely agreed that RFK was a horrible ballpark for baseball.

It is?

It's widely agreed that RFK was a horrible ballpark for baseball.

I think the largest ridicule was for the absurdly short left field porch that was used in some exhibition games. The stadium was designed so that the seating sections in left field would pivot and telescope under the seats on the third base side for baseball games and back out for football. After years of mechanical disuse through the 70s, those seats were rusted in place when the Cracker Jack Old Timers games were played. I believe even some exhibitions in the 90s were played with the short porch. It allowed Luke Appling to hit a homer in his 70s, though.

Other than that, RFK was the most pleasant of the cookie-cutter parks that I attended. That maybe buoyed by it being vacant for the turf era, and so, always having natural turf (that could be ripped up with two-outs in the 9th whenever the fans desired).

Did Rich Ashburn, then with the Mets, get to play in this game? Just curious; we know Stan Musial did, and his career dated back to 1941.

Two days before this AS game, Musial hit homers in three consecutive ABs vs. the Mets at the Polo Grounds. With a homer in his final at-bat on Saturday, it gave him a record-tying four homers in four ABs. At age 41.

Before the AS game, Kennedy summoned Musial over for a visit. Musial had supported Kennedy*, and Kennedy wanted to remind him of their only other meeting, in the spring of 1960 when Kennedy was running for office and told Musial, "They tell me you're told old to play baseball and I'm too young to be president. Maybe we can fool them."

* - possibly a Catholic connection, since Musial, AFAIK, tended to range between apolitical and conservative.

I dunno, maybe TR?

His poor eyesight would not have served him well in athletics. He was also sickly (severe asthma) as a boy, but overcame that to be a vigorous, robust adult.

Let's face it, TR, Ford, Bush, they were all good, but none of them could ball like the current POTUS

Well, if it's any consolation, I wear a hat these days.

Other than baseball caps, 99% of the people I've ever seen wear a hat in the last 50 years are bald. What's funny is that they never take them off indoors, kind of like the old school junkies who always wore long sleeved shirts in the middle of the Summer.

--------------------

It's widely agreed that RFK was a horrible ballpark for baseball. (I never attended a game there. My question to those who've read about it or perhaps some (Andy?) went to ballgames at it is: Was Griffith Stadium, which was replaced by RFK in 1962, a good baseball park? I would imagine, because it was quite small, Griffith was good for fans to see the game. I know it was very old by 1961. I think Griffith was built in the 19th Century. Was it so run down that it had to be replaced for that reason?

I went to about 100-150 games at Griffith Stadium from 1952 to 1961, both football and baseball. The three worst things about it were its primitive facilities (in 30 seconds you were permeated with the smell of piss and cigars), its godawful food (one part coke to ten parts ice), and its near-barren playing field, which consisted of a few patches of outfield grass amidst a general field of dirt. And in its last years, it was one block north of DC's biggest shooting gallery, even though I never had any problem coming or going to night games.

All that said, it was a great place for a kid to go to a lot of games, not just a few a year. The seats were dirt cheap (75 cents for the ninth row of reserved seats behind the plate, and you could move up after the first few innings), the sightlines were excellent (the foul territory was tiny, and those poles only were in play on Opening Day, since that was always the only sellout of the year), it was no more than 30 minutes from anywhere in the DC area (and with good and cheap public transportation), and the crowds consisted mostly of real fans (who else would ever want to see the Senators?), rather than pseudo-fans on expense accounts. And without the sort of crime paranoia you have today, it was commonplace for kids like us to go to games alone as soon as we got to be about 9 or 10 years old.

So maybe it's just misplaced nostalgia, but overall I'd take it in a blink over any park today. All it needed was a Major League ballclub to have made it a perfect experience---but that was what the Yankees and Indians were for.

For football it was even better, because the crowds were far bigger and the atmosphere was much more electric, even though the Redskins were usually as bad or worse as the Nats. And a midfield season ticket was all of $25.20. They tore it down because of its small size (31,000-36,000 capacity), age and location, and understandably so, but at least for baseball, it was a big comedown.

-------------------

It's widely agreed that RFK was a horrible ballpark for baseball.

It is?

It was. Too symmetrical; the ball didn't carry well; its enclosed nature made it a super sweatbox during Summer day games; and its light colored seats made for a terrible fielding background during day games with its typically small crowds.

OTOH it was ridiculously easy to sneak into, since the stadium police were nowhere to be seen until the gates actually opened. It was even true for Redskins games prior to the Lombardi and Allen eras, and IMO that was its saving grace until the Redskins finally came of age in the 70's.

Athletic accomplishments of presidents that come to mind:

Dwight Eisenhower: MIGHT have played some semi-pro ball under a assumed name before he went to West Point. Played Football at the Academy and once tackled Jim Thorpe. Avid golfer during time in Office.

Abe Lincoln (seriously!): Was quite the wrestler in his youth, Champion Handball player.

Teddy Roosevelt: Born a sickly child, his athletic manliness as an adult are well known.

H.W. Bush: Captain of the Yale baseball team (and some believe he might have had the skills to go pro), Youngest Naval Aviator in the US Navy in WWII, survived crash in Pacific and was rescued by a submarine. Still goes skydiving.

George W. Bush: Mediocre Baseball player, better Rugby player, Head cheerleader. Greatest first pitch of all time.

Obama: Reasonably good Basketball player, but smokes. So-so first pitch.

Andrew Jackson: Duelist. Soldier.

Re: hats...maybe the Anthem just played and most still have them off.

And as for Ford -- the most athletic president of the second half of the 20th century? Who in the first half compares? Who in the history of the office? Washington, maybe?

Come now, Steve--William Howard Taft was an entire offensive line by himself...and his trip to Japan in 1905, while usually parsed in political terms (the Russo-Japanese Wsr), had a simply massive effect on revitalizing the art of sumo wrestling.

And yet he remains in the popular perception the epitome of youth and vitality, while President Ford- undisputably the most athletic president of the second half of the 20th century (Number retired at Michigan! The Secret Service had to hire world-class skiers in order to keep up with him on the slopes! Had hle-in-one during a pro-am!)- is considered a bumbling klutz in the Zeitgeist.

The point of those stories was that Ford had a drinking problem.

Moving to the question of most athletic congressmen in history: Bill Bradley, Jim Bunning, the late Jack Kemp and Steve Largent all come to mind.

Whizzer White is undisputed Supreme Court most athletic.

First half of the twentieth century? I dunno, maybe TR?

He was a bit of a runt, and athletic activity was, for him, more of a palliative for physical ailments than something he was especially good at. He did do reasonably well at boxing while in college, though I leave it to you how stiff the competition was at Harvard in the late 19th Century.

Several Presidents, notably Washington and Jackson, have been exceptional horsemen. Lincoln was enormously tall for his time -- I'm having trouble finding a source, but the average man of the mid-19th century would be something of a shortarse by today's standards, and Lincoln is still the tallest President in American history -- and though he's thought of today as gentle, ugly, and benign old philosopher, he was a rough man of the west in his youth, and there are famous (though possibly apocryphal) stories of him mixing it up with unsavory sorts who harrassed his supporters early in his political career; he may be the country's most pugilistic President.

Governor wise, we'll have to have Ventura and Ah-nold fight it out.

Moving to the question of most athletic congressmen in history: Bill Bradley, Jim Bunning, the late Jack Kemp and Steve Largent all come to mind.

Don't forget Wilmer Mizell.

There's no "may have been" about it. Kennedy was a physical wreck in about ten different ways, constantly in and out hospitals throughout his life, narrowly escaping death several times.

He was also on serious prescription meds that may or may not have affected his judgment and led to his risk-taking behaviors.

Well, if it's any consolation, I wear a hat these days. So if anyone wants to join with me in bringing them back, I'm behind it.

...


Other than baseball caps, 99% of the people I've ever seen wear a hat in the last 50 years are bald. What's funny is that they never take them off indoors, kind of like the old school junkies who always wore long sleeved shirts in the middle of the Summer.

The young people especially, they do not know to take the hats off indoors. It's a small thing, but when I see a kid in a porkpie hat (or whatever) take it off as he comes inside, at least I know he has some clue about how the hat thing is supposed to work.

It's a small thing, but when I see a kid in a porkpie hat (or whatever) take it off as he comes inside, at least I know he has some clue about how the hat thing is supposed to work.

I think this warrants a "whatever".

Other than baseball caps, 99% of the people I've ever seen wear a hat in the last 50 years are bald. What's funny is that they never take them off indoors, kind of like the old school junkies who always wore long sleeved shirts in the middle of the Summer.


The young people especially, they do not know to take the hats off indoors. It's a small thing, but when I see a kid in a porkpie hat (or whatever) take it off as he comes inside, at least I know he has some clue about

I am not bald, of course, but I do know to take my hat off indoors. I will sometimes wait until I actually arrive at my office proper, but it always comes off sooner than later.

Also, I was kind of fond of RFK when I saw games there--it had a certain battered charm--but the outfield upper deck was miles, just miles from home plate. I don't know it if was really that much farther than other parks or just an illusion or what, but when you were up there, it was like watching a baseball game from the Goodyear blimp.

Hatless Jack

I remember hearing the author of this book on NPR a few years ago talk about the subject of the disappearance of the wearing of the hat. Informative and tantalizing he was, especially about the associated industries and services that revolved around men's dress hats (like hat check services) that you wouldn't normally think about.

JFK definitely had very little to do with it, he held. He more or less followed the trend rather than instigating anything. For some men, of course, that someone like the President didn't wear it made them stop, I guess, but some also kept on for a few more years, too. Cary Grant didn't wear a hat in North By Northwest. Indeed, I don't think he wore any in any of his mid to late 50's stuff, although he did in his forties movies. OTOH, James Stewart in Vertigo was rarely without one. There was a history of the decline of the use of the chapeau.It started years before Kennedy and was in full, in the early twentieth century, and by the time of JFK's bursting on the scene in 1960, it was definitely already moribund. My father, I remember, born the same year as JFK, had a fedora, but I have few memories of him wearing it, and none by the time of the late fifties. To me, it was no longer derigeur by the fifties but entirely optional and greatly dependent on mere individual taste rather than societal mores--how you looked with or without one. Grant/JFK looked better without one, so they didn't wear it much when it no longer mattered that you do.

Eisenhower was not only a fine football player at the point, he also loved to play baseball. Indeed, he wanted to be a pro baseball player.

When I was a small boy in Kansas, a friend of mine and I went fishing and as we sat there in the warmth of the summer afternoon on a river bank, we talked about what we wanted to do when we grew up. I told him that I wanted to be a real major league baseball player, a genuine professional like Honus Wagner. My friend said that he'd like to be President of the United States. Neither of us got our wish.

Ike and baseball

At West Point, Eisenhower tried out for the baseball team but did not make it. He would later be quoted as saying, "Not making the baseball team at West Point was one of the greatest disappointments of my life, maybe my greatest."[3]

Same source as preceding.

I remember hearing the author of this book on NPR a few years ago talk about the subject of the disappearance of the wearing of the hat. Informative and tantalizing he was, especially about the associated industries and services that revolved around men's dress hats (like hat check services) that you wouldn't normally think about.

There's a longish section in Phillip Roth's I Married A Communist about the decline of the woman's glove. I think Jacqueline Kennedy may even played a bit part in the discussion. The whole glove industry discussion in that novel turned out to be much more interesting than I would have suspected.

Moving to the question of most athletic congressmen in history: Bill Bradley, Jim Bunning, the late Jack Kemp and Steve Largent all come to mind.

Bob Matthias says hi.

Re post 54

Those things can be fascinationg, yes. Something seemingly trivial with untold reverberating social effects that don't readily come to mind, that one takes for granted.

Along these lines, and what brought the comparison to Grant and JFK to mind, was a rather arch but amusing segment on NPR yesterday that I only caught midway through by someone whose name I didn't catch. It was all about how North By Northwest was really all about Cary Grant's suit. Really a detailed analysis along those lines, if laying on the "drab, '50's conformity" label a little too thick.

It was all about how North By Northwest was really all about Cary Grant's suit.

That's insane. North by Northwest was all about cunninlingus.

Similar to the JFK/hat sales theory is the one saying that Clark Gable caused undershirt sales to plummet in the 1930s after not wearing one in It Happened One Night.

And I believe that's another urban legend that does not withstand even cursory scrutiny.

That's insane. North by Northwest was all about cunninlingus.

I'm disappointed--no homosexual subtext? Landau and Mason just left dangling. Need to somehow bring Cary into it to make the cosmic harpstrings hum. Again it's suit--cunnilingus, maybe; fellatio and sodomy in that suit--nevah!

Moving to the question of most athletic congressmen in history: Bill Bradley, Jim Bunning, the late Jack Kemp and Steve Largent all come to mind.

Don't forget Wilmer Mizell.

JC Watts was quite good. Jim Ryun could kick Nancy Pelosi's just about anyone's butt in the Mile.

Re: Teddy Roosevelt's athleticism -- I recommend reading David McCullough's bio of young TR called Mornings on Horseback. You'll get a sense of how he was physically. (My favorite recollection from that book was that McCullough* counted the actual days when TR had bouts of asthma as a child. He found that TR was asthmatic something like 2/3rds of the time on Sundays, 1/3rd on all the other days combined. His father's reaction to his asthma was to give him a cigar and make him do vigorous physical exercise, like climb a mountain or ride long-distance on a horse. As a result of Sunday asthma, TR did not have to go to church. Psychosomatic illness?)

I've read a dozen TR bios. My take is that he shouldn't be mistaken for any kind of great athlete. However, he had incredible physical endurance and willpower. He had no trouble starting out on a morning hike and completing a 30 mile trip on foot in a day.

*Perhaps McCullough was reporting someone else's research on the days of the week. I read that book 20 years ago, so forgive me if my recollection is a bit off on that point.

That's insane. North by Northwest was all about cunninlingus.

When in the climactic scene Cary Grant's train pentrates the Eva Marie Saint's tunnel, Hitch was not thinking about third base. That was the metaphoric grand slam home run in the berth.

There's a longish section in Phillip Roth's I Married A Communist about the decline of the woman's glove.

I think you mean American Pastoral. I Married a Communist is on-topic, though, since it features a professional Abe Lincoln impersonator.

Bob Mathias was a pretty fair athlete.

I think you mean American Pastoral. I Married a Communist is on-topic, though, since it features a professional Abe Lincoln impersonator.

Quite right. I read them back-to-back. Swde Lvov was in the glove business.

Also, I was kind of fond of RFK when I saw games there--it had a certain battered charm--but the outfield upper deck was miles, just miles from home plate. I don't know it if was really that much farther than other parks or just an illusion or what, but when you were up there, it was like watching a baseball game from the Goodyear blimp.

The first clue about what Bob Short was all about came in the first year (1969) he owned the Senators. In 1968, a $1.50 general admission ticket let you sit nine rows back in the grandstand seats, anywhere in the lower deck. When Short bought the team, he raised the general admission price to $2.25 and moved it to those very seats you're talking about---the upper deck in centerfield. The lower deck became exclusively reserved, and now cost $3.50, a 133% increase in just one year. That was the last time I ever walked into that stadium for anything but football. From that point I realized that it was a much better deal to drive up to Baltimore and see a real team for half the price.

more of a palliative for physical ailments than something he was especially good at. He did do reasonably well at boxing while in college, though I leave it to you how stiff the competition was at Harvard in the late 19th Century.

That seems a curious assessment given that President Roosevelt wore out his protective detail with his constant activity including hikes hither and yon, diving into whatever river was handy no matter the time of season and pretty much going nonstop 15 hours a day.

I don't know how folks necessarily term "athletic", but serious dollars to donuts Roosevelt had the stamina and endurance like few others. And by most accounts he was a pretty strong grown man where only the near disaster in South America finally sapping him.

I don't know how folks necessarily term "athletic"

I don't, either, and there have been more than a few BTF threads that have argued which sport requires the most "athleticism" or "skill," and we've never come up with an agreement on definitions. But I've never heard it argued that an ability to walk 50 miles is in and of itself a sign of being "athletic."

In terms of congressmen, bobblehead came up with the winner in Bob Mathias. It's hard to compete with a two time Olympics decathlon winner, especially one who didn't even know the rules of several of the events at the time of the first one he entered, and who won the event on raw talent.

That seems a curious assessment given that President Roosevelt wore out his protective detail with his constant activity including hikes hither and yon, diving into whatever river was handy no matter the time of season and pretty much going nonstop 15 hours a day.

I don't dispute that he was exceptionally energetic. I just don't think he was very athletically gifted in the sense of being able to run fast or jump high. He was short and squat. Find a sport that requires less agility or raw speed and more endurance -- the ultra-marathon comes to mind -- and he would probably excel. But competing against larger, quicker men like Ford, Bush, Lincoln or Washington, he would be outclassed in most of what we today call athletics.

I just had one of those moments where I took a step back, thought about what I was talking about, and could hardly believe it. *shakes head vigrously*

EDIT: For instance, take Roosevelt's boxing career. He finished second in a tournament at Harvard, despite being of just average height and probably less-than-average weight. This would take extraordinary tenacity and probaby a great deal of training. But he finished second in a boxing tournament at Harvard. An extraordinary achievement for a boy who had been sickly for almost the entirety of his youth; not an extraordinary achievement in absolute athletic terms. That Roosevelt pushed himself far with a limited body cannot be questioned; that he was limited by size and illness is also pretty much unquestionable.

In the end, and I can't believe I'm about to say this, I think that Lincoln could have licked TR good, given a square go in the primes of their respective youths.

Roosevelt was also a heckuva horseman and if anyone here has the gall to suggest that doesn't require athleticism then I know the crew here is dumber than a box of rocks.

But he finished second in a boxing tournament at Harvard.

He could have kicked any of our asses

PF:

Thanks for stating it. Figured it had to come from someone closer to BBTF's demographic.

Though I will suggest that given the commonalities between the President's favorite pasttimes and my own I believe we would have scrapped to a draw. That and thanks to years getting in fights I have a few tricks.........

But he finished second in a boxing tournament at Harvard.

He could have kicked any of our asses

You're only saying that because Kevin's not around any more.

H.W. Bush: Captain of the Yale baseball team (and some believe he might have had the skills to go pro),

I've heard Bush described as a good-field, no-hit first baseman. He'd have to be the bastard son of Hal Chase and Keith Hernandez to make the minors if he couldn't hit at Yale.

But he finished second in a boxing tournament at Harvard.

That was before T. S. Eliot boxed for Harvard,though.

Regarding D.C. Stadium aka RFK: The seats that caused the short left-field porch were up through the 1980s. They were removed by 1991, when the park hosted two exhibition games between Boston and Baltimore (and Washington was a candidate for an NL expansion team).:

I mistrust all frank and simple people, especially when their stories hold together, and I always had a suspicion that perhaps Robert Cohn had never been middleweight boxing champion, and that perhaps a horse had stepped on his face...

North by Northwest was all about cunninlingus.


I'm disappointed--no homosexual subtext?

Well now, that's depends, doesn't it?

the first clue about what Bob Short was all about came in the first year (1969) he owned the Senators.

Really? It wasn't that he bought and moved the Lakers in 3 years, and then sold them at a profit?

I've heard Bush described as a good-field, no-hit first baseman. He'd have to be the bastard son of Hal Chase and Keith Hernandez to make the minors if he couldn't hit at Yale.

He was a good-field, no-hit first baseman, all right, but in Bush's junior and senior years, when he was captain of the team, Yale was the runnerup in the College World Series. (Even in football, the Ivy League was quite competitive on a national level, believe it or not, until the mid-50's. Princeton was in the top 10 as late as 1951.) He may well have been Ford's equal as an athlete, considering that Ford was a center and not at one of the skill positions.

--------------------------

the first clue about what Bob Short was all about came in the first year (1969) he owned the Senators.

Really? It wasn't that he bought and moved the Lakers in 3 years, and then sold them at a profit?

I guess I should have added "for most Washington baseball fans," few of whom had followed the Minneapolis Lakers, and even fewer of whom would have held it against any owner if he'd screwed Minneapolis for any reason, given what happened to the first Washington baseball franchise.

Looking at the photograph atop this page: Is there anyone else in it besides JFK who is recognizable? I'm not sure if it's LBJ, but the guy one row back with his hands folded together at his waist looks like Vice President Johnson. Is that David Doyle (of Charlie's Angels fame) with his hand holding his hat on? Is that Ford Frick on Kennedy's left (hat in hand)?

In this shot you can clearly see HHH right behind JFK with hand arms folded across his chest. The Little Leaguers, of course, are Kevin Bacon and William Jonathan Drayton Jr.

That's insane. North by Northwest was all about cunninlingus.

No debate there. Who gives better head than Mt. Rushmore?

But he finished second in a boxing tournament at Harvard.


He could have kicked any of our asses

He'd have to find his way into our mothers' basements first!

to suggest that doesn't require athleticism then I know the crew here is dumber than a box of rocks

Having ridden a few horses, I won't contest that.

Is there anyone else in it besides JFK who is recognizable?

That's defiinitely Johnson in the black suit under Jack's right arm, as I think was noted upthread. It's a characteristic pose and expression, and the hairline matches. Given the whiteyness and the flannel suityness of the surrounding people, I'd be willing to bet you've got a couple of politicians and/or Cabinet members there. The picture is notable, to me, for its lack of Secret Service -- I see only four likely candidates: Sunglasses, one row behind and two men to Kennedy's left (stage right), though he has his hands in his pockets, so I'm a little skeptical; white shirt, face partially obscured, between Kennedy and Johnson (stage left); the man in sunglasses whose head protrudes at the bottom of the frame, stage left; and, most obviously, the man in the black or blue jacket who is directly above the head at the bottom of the frame. My guess, as the first two men I described are both facing the field and not the crowd, is that we've got a maximum of two Secret Service officers in this picture. I wonder what gate security was like that day.

Isn't that (Baseball Commissioner) Warren Giles immediately to JFK's left, holding the hat in his hand?

And that is clearly LBJ.

Though I will suggest that given the commonalities between the President's favorite pasttimes and my own I believe we would have scrapped to a draw. That and thanks to years getting in fights I have a few tricks.........

I had simply assumed you were the champion of that Harvard tournament in which TR finished second, Harvey.

The guy with the glasses, without the hat, second from our right, in the second row, isn't that Larry O'Brien, JFK's strategist and future NBA commissoner?

Larry O'Brien

The guy with the glasses, without the hat, second from our right, in the second row, isn't that Larry O'Brien, JFK's strategist and future NBA commissoner?

Yep, as pointed out in #20.

Re: hats, I'm sure everyone has noticed the rail in front of the first row. Apparently, in 1962 men still had hats but didn't wear them.

You mean National League President Warren Giles, right Steve? He was never commissioner.

It does look like him.

[87] see [27]

North by Northwest: "A Little Trouty But Quite Good"

Eve Kendall: I tipped the steward five dollars to seat you here if you should come in.
Roger Thornhill: Is that a proposition?
Eve Kendall: I never discuss love on an empty stomach.
Roger Thornhill: You've already eaten!
Eve Kendall: But you haven't.

------------------------------------

Take a shot for every reference to that particular sex act. You will be drunk before the climax!

i thought men stopped wearing hats when everybody started buying cars after WWII and they got progressively more low slung. hat wearing got progressively more cumbersome.

You mean National League President Warren Giles, right Steve? He was never commissioner.

D'oh! Of course.

Several Presidents, notably Washington and Jackson, have been exceptional horsemen. Lincoln was enormously tall for his time -- I'm having trouble finding a source, but the average man of the mid-19th century would be something of a shortarse by today's standards, and Lincoln is still the tallest President in American history -- and though he's thought of today as gentle, ugly, and benign old philosopher, he was a rough man of the west in his youth, and there are famous (though possibly apocryphal) stories of him mixing it up with unsavory sorts who harrassed his supporters early in his political career; he may be the country's most pugilistic President.

I'm reading Lincoln's biography right now, and he claims to have wielded and axe pretty much continuously (clearing farmland) from age seven until he left home. That would be a very transferable skill for baseball.

Take a shot for every reference to that particular sex act. You will be drunk before the climax!

Of the movie, or the sex act?

Why wasn't this discussion of the athleticism of Presidents held in the thread with the big-headed Tom Jefferson and Teddy Roosevelt?

Ironic that this picture in a stadium that in less than seven years, would be named after his younger brother after both of them had been assassinated.

I heard, Mickey Vernon I think, say that both teams would stand near the President's box, hoping to catch the ball, then fight each other for it. Kind of like the stereotype of fighting for the bouquet at the wedding. Vernon said he avoided the scrum to keep from getting injured.

In about five years from the mid 1980s to the early 1990s, the ordinary first pitch ceremony changed. I'm talking about the head of a big group attending that gets to throw out the pitch on an ordinary day. In that short period of time, I saw the first pitch go from the stands to the mound.

The first sign that Bob Short wanted to move the Senators was when their last exhibition of 1969 was played in the same stadium in Arlington, TX that would be their home in 1972.

All born-in-DC team:

C - Vic Correll
1B - Lu Blue
2B - Don Money
3B - Art Devlin
SS - Maury Wills
OF - Bubba Morton, Milt Thompson, Danny Sothern
SP - Doc White, Johnny Klippstein, Clay Kirby, Fred Talbot
RP - Brendan Donnelly

I'm reading Lincoln's biography right now, and he claims to have wielded and axe pretty much continuously (clearing farmland) from age seven until he left home. That would be a very transferable skill for baseball.

Yep.

from #44:

I'm having trouble finding a source, but the average man of the mid-19th century would be something of a shortarse by today's standards,

This actually isn't exactly true. The average native born white American male is today only something like an inch taller than he was in 1776. Europeans were generally very short (in 1789 the average French male was, IIRC, something like 5-4), but Americans, thanks to the colonial farmer's diet of 5,000 calories a day, grew. Lower average heights in the past were usually the result of a larger percentage of immigrants, and also first generation Americans, because it takes a couple of generations for height to catch up with the locals -- bigger women have bigger babies, bigger babies become bigger adults, repeat.

#56

Along these lines, and what brought the comparison to Grant and JFK to mind, was a rather arch but amusing segment on NPR yesterday that I only caught midway through by someone whose name I didn't catch. It was all about how North By Northwest was really all about Cary Grant's suit. Really a detailed analysis along those lines, if laying on the "drab, '50's conformity" label a little too thick.

I didn't hear this, but I'm sure this was a reading of "Cary Grant's Suit" by Todd McEwen, originally published in Granta in 2006. It's great.

The average native born white American male is today only something like an inch taller than he was in 1776.

Source?

Lower average heights in the past were usually the result of a larger percentage of immigrants, and also first generation Americans, because it takes a couple of generations for height to catch up with the locals -- bigger women have bigger babies, bigger babies become bigger adults, repeat.

The average height of the modern American male is significantly impacted by those same influences. Also, according to this, your data is wrong -- by 1970, the average American male was nearly 3 inches taller than his counterpart in 1860, not 1.