Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Thursday, December 22, 2011

Baseball Prospectus | Overthinking It: Keeping Up with the Friedmans

When it feels harder to be the smartest guy in the room, it might be time to move to another room.

Small-market teams reeling from the new CBA’s draft and international spending restrictions won’t be happy to hear this, but the less variation there is among GMs, the stronger the correlation between spending and winning will become, since the effects of market and payroll size will account for an even greater percentage of the difference between teams. We can already see this happening—the Yankees were always rich, but they weren’t always smart. Now they’re rich and smart, which is very bad news for the Rays, the Jays, and the rest of the American League.

Does any of that mean that the Astros shouldn’t have hired Jeff Luhnow? That a team shouldn’t bother signing someone smart because another team will just hire someone smarter? No, of course not—as nice as it is to get ahead, there’s plenty of value in not falling behind. But as the information at teams’ disposal becomes more complete and hiring practices become more competitive, the days of GMs standing out from the pack enough to be played by Brad Pitt might seem as remote as those of the last .400 hitter.

Jim Furtado Posted: December 22, 2011 at 12:41 PM | 20 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: sabermetrics

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. fra paolo Posted: December 22, 2011 at 02:05 PM (#4021690)
The article takes the same position so many political or economic analyses do, such as we saw in the year or so before the Global Financial Crisis broke over all our heads in 2008: 'If things stay the same, then X.' But things won't stay the same, and we don't necessarily know how they will be different.
   2. bobm Posted: December 22, 2011 at 03:12 PM (#4021712)
new CBA’s draft and international spending restrictions ... the effects of market and payroll size will account for an even greater percentage of the difference between teams.

How does restricting spending for all teams in certain areas--which would seem to hinder the richest teams the most--help to increase the competitive impact of spending, ie "the effects of market and payroll size"?
   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 22, 2011 at 03:16 PM (#4021714)
How does restricting spending for all teams in certain areas--which would seem to hinder the richest teams the most--help to increase the competitive impact of spending, ie "the effects of market and payroll size"?

It doesn't, but that doesn't fit the narrative, so shhhhhh!
   4. zack Posted: December 22, 2011 at 03:58 PM (#4021763)
No, of course not—as nice as it is to get ahead, there’s plenty of value in not falling behind. But as the information at teams’ disposal becomes more complete and hiring practices become more competitive, the days of GMs standing out from the pack enough to be played by Brad Pitt might seem as remote as those of the last .400 hitter.


The Death of the GM! So pomo.
   5. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: December 22, 2011 at 04:51 PM (#4021830)
Perfect information = perfectly predictable outcomes.
God does not play dice, and all that.
   6. Bad Doctor Posted: December 22, 2011 at 06:11 PM (#4021937)
How does restricting spending for all teams in certain areas--which would seem to hinder the richest teams the most--help to increase the competitive impact of spending, ie "the effects of market and payroll size"?

I think the issue here is that a good portion of the richest teams had not yet realized the great advantage that could be realized by dumping cash into these areas. Boston had, sure, and the Yankees had some big splashes in Japan, but off the top of my head I'd name the Royals, Pirates, and Rays as the teams that have opened their wallets in the last few drafts, and the A's and Twins as the teams with the biggest non-Japan int'l signing scores.

So the cap doesn't allow the small market to gain on the big boys in this area so much ... the smaller markets with smart operations were the ones who were currently making the most of it. (Though I still think it was important for MLB to cut off this area from the big boys in the future.)
   7. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 22, 2011 at 06:19 PM (#4021945)
So the cap doesn't allow the small market to gain on the big boys in this area so much ... the smaller markets with smart operations were the ones who were currently making the most of it.

Right, but this advantage wasn't sustainable.

It's much more important that now, when the small market teams have top draft picks, they can select the very best player available, and expect to sign him.

The ability to sign top-10 picks at a reasonable cost is a huge benefit to the small markets. It helps the Yankees and Red Sox not at all, b/c they never have those picks.

The new system basically abolishes signability picks, and later round overpays. That hinders the big teams much more than the small.
   8. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 22, 2011 at 06:47 PM (#4021972)
The larger point is that a splashy GM hire doesn't necessarily mean success (remember this Cubs fans!), and its even harder for small market teams in the short-term since a new GM can't overcome their obstacles by splurging on the draft as Dayton Moore and Neal Huntington did.
   9. Randy Jones Posted: December 22, 2011 at 06:59 PM (#4021985)
The ability to sign top-10 picks at a reasonable cost is a huge benefit to the small markets.


Except they had the ability to sign those guys before. Draft spending was a drop in the bucket for even the smallest revenue teams. All the draft changes in the latest CBA were for a single, simple purpose, to increase profits for the owners and take money away from the players. All the garbage about competitive balance is just propaganda.
   10. Swedish Chef Posted: December 22, 2011 at 07:03 PM (#4021989)
All the garbage about competitive balance is just propaganda.

It gives small market teams bonus picks and extra international cap room.
   11. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 22, 2011 at 07:04 PM (#4021990)
Except they had the ability to sign those guys before.

No they didn't.

Tons of top-10 talents fell the later 1st round or 2nd round, while small market teams took "signability" picks, because they could get top-10 money at #22, or 1st rd money in the 2nd.

Now that can't happen. When Hou. is drafting in the top-5 for the next six years, they can take the absolute best talent available. There is no more "signability" concern, b/c you can never get more money by falling in the draft to a rich team.

Draft spending was a drop in the bucket for even the smallest revenue teams.

Doesn't matter if the individual player thinks he can get more money being drafted by the Red Sox at #24. Now that can't happen.
   12. Randy Jones Posted: December 22, 2011 at 07:05 PM (#4021992)
It gives small market teams bonus picks and extra international cap room.


No, it doesn't.

Except they had the ability to sign those guys before.

No they didn't.


Choosing not to do something is not the same as lacking the ability to do so. Average draft spending was like ~$5m, any team could afford to go over slot on a top-10 pick, they chose not to.
   13. Bad Doctor Posted: December 22, 2011 at 08:20 PM (#4022061)
Except they had the ability to sign those guys before.

No they didn't.


From BA's recap of 2011 draft bonuses:

The biggest surprise of the night came when the Pirates signed [second rounder Josh] Bell for $5 million. Bell had written a letter to the Major League Scouting Bureau before the draft to announce that he was dead-set on attending Texas. His bonus set a record for a player drafted outside the first round, eclipsing the previous mark by $2.25 million (Jason Young in 2000). The $13 million for Cole and Bell by themselves broke the record for bonus spending by one team in a single draft ($11,927,200 by the 2010 Nationals).

Washington also blew past its old mark by giving $11 million in bonuses to its first three picks (Rendon, Alex Meyer, Brian Goodwin) and a $4.15 million major league contract to third-rounder Matt Purke, who hadn't been expected to sign. Other huge deals outside of the first round included the Nationals inking sandwich pick Goodwin and the Padres signing second-rounder Austin Hedges for $3 million each, the Cubs giving 14th-rounder Dillon Maples $2.5 million and the Blue Jays snagging second-rounder Daniel Norris for $2 million.


And here are the million dollar bonuses from 2010 outside of the 1st and supplemental rounds:
11 Stetson Allie, rhp, Pit (2nd round) $2,250,000
13 A.J. Cole, rhp, Was (4th round) $2,000,000
23 Dickie Thon, ss, Tor (5th round) $1,500,000
24 Mason Williams, of, NYY (4th round) $1,450,000
27 John Barbato, rhp, SD (6th round) $1,400,000
29 Tony Wolters, ss, Cle (3rd round) $1,350,000
31 Garin Cecchini, ss, Bos (4th round) $1,310,000
34 Sean Coyle, ss, Bos (3rd round) $1,300,000
35 Brett Eibner, of/rhp, KC (2nd round) $1,250,000
36 Yordy Cabrera, of, Oak (2nd round) $1,250,000
37 Ty Linton, of, Ari (14th round) $1,250,000
38 LeVon Washington, of, Cle (2nd round) $1,200,000
42 Drew Smyly, lhp, Det (2nd round) $1,100,000
47 Sammy Solis, lhp, Was (2nd round) $1,000,000
48 Alex Lavisky, c, Cle (8th round) $1,000,000

EDIT: Now, will the cap help the Houstons of the world? Sure, but they weren't getting killed because they were a small market, they were getting killed because ... well, they didn't have a Friedman, and they didn't appreciate the potential outsized ROI that draft spending could yield. They fell into the common fan lament of "Why should some guy who's never proven anything get millions of dollars?" rather than realizing how undervalued these picks were.
   14. Tripon Posted: December 22, 2011 at 08:20 PM (#4022062)
Ned Colletti still exists.
   15. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 22, 2011 at 08:33 PM (#4022078)

Choosing not to do something is not the same as lacking the ability to do so. Average draft spending was like ~$5m, any team could afford to go over slot on a top-10 pick, they chose not to.


If everybody goes over slot, then nobody is going over slot. You've just increased slot.

As a collective, "small market" teams are better off under the new system. They can draft purely for talent, and get extra supplemental picks.

A couple of small market teams at a certain point in their success cycle are hurt, yes.
   16. McCoy Posted: December 22, 2011 at 08:50 PM (#4022089)
As a collective, "small market" teams are better off under the new system. They can draft purely for talent, and get extra supplemental picks.

A couple of small market teams at a certain point in their success cycle are hurt, yes.


Well, how many small market teams are there?
   17. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 22, 2011 at 09:13 PM (#4022106)
Well, how many small market teams are there?

The way those who complain about the unfair system talk? About 15.

The key is, this avenue was not sustainable. If the Pirates and Royals start getting good returns on spending $3-5M on 2nd rounders, the Yankees and Red Sox can pay those guys $6-8M. Or other teams can stop going cheap on the draft, and pick those guys in the earlt 1st rd.
   18. Tripon Posted: December 22, 2011 at 09:26 PM (#4022121)
Small market is an ever changing term. Prior to this year, you could have said the Marlins were a small market team, but they spent the 2nd most on Free agents after the Angels. The 'small market' Rays just spent $70 million on payroll. St. Louis has been running post $100 million payrolls for years. The Houston Astros, who reside in the 4th biggest city in America are currently a 'small' market team.

Small market is whatever you want it to mean.
   19. Tripon Posted: December 22, 2011 at 10:02 PM (#4022169)
Also, looking at the list of who spent the least on the draft the last five years, the Dodgers and the White Sox would be one and two. Are they small market teams?
   20. Diamond Research Posted: December 22, 2011 at 11:12 PM (#4022280)
I think that low budget teams that do a good job of scouting the internationals will gain an advantage over the old rules.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
HowardMegdal
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogWilmoth: Nate McLouth Designated For Assignment
(9 - 10:58pm, May 25)
Last: Tripon

NewsblogMatschulat: Did I Miss The "Paul Konerko Is So Overrated OMG" Bandwagon?
(26 - 10:46pm, May 25)
Last: Der_K is feeling better now.

NewsblogTBO: Nerdy Rays head north
(17 - 10:07pm, May 25)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogHimrich’s Top Ten Target Field Foods
(6 - 9:57pm, May 25)
Last: Long John McCaine Mutiny on the Bounty (scott)

NewsblogThe Hall of Very Good: Former Cards Slugger Critical of "LaRussa's Regime"
(3 - 9:52pm, May 25)
Last: asinwreck

NewsblogT.R. Sullivan: Of Frank Robinson, Milt Pappas and Jim Palmer
(6 - 9:42pm, May 25)
Last: TR_Sullivan

NewsblogDodgers want to host NHL's Winter Classic
(22 - 9:38pm, May 25)
Last: Cris E

NewsblogBoston.com: Curt Schilling’s 38 Studios lays off all staff
(117 - 9:36pm, May 25)
Last: Teufel's Graveyard

NewsblogGreenberg: Cubs' Ricketts decries proposal
(817 - 9:08pm, May 25)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogHP: Baseball is leaving the human factor behind
(55 - 8:48pm, May 25)
Last: Squash

NewsblogBud Selig -- No need for more MLB replay for now - ESPN
(85 - 8:37pm, May 25)
Last: Harveys Wallbangers

Sox TherapyA Winning Ballclub?
(19 - 8:32pm, May 25)
Last: Jose Can You Seabiscuit

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1973 Discussion
(14 - 7:33pm, May 25)
Last: Kiko Sakata

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 5-25-2012
(48 - 7:04pm, May 25)
Last: AndrewJ

NewsblogOT: Soccer Thread—May 2012
(1164 - 6:35pm, May 25)
Last: The DA Baracus Hypothesis

Buy MLB playoff tickets, plus 2011 World Series, 2011 ALCS tickets and NLCS game tickets. We also have Texas Rangers playoff schedule, tickets to Red Sox games and Yankees game tickets. Plus, buy Phillies baseball tickets, Tigers playoff tickets and the biggies like ALDS baseball tickets and 2011 NLDS tickets.

Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats

 

 

 

AllianceTickets.com has cheap MLB Tickets. Get all your Colorado Rockies Tickets, Seattle Mariners Tickets, San Francisco Giants Tickets and all your favorite baseball tickets here. We also carry cheap Denver Broncos Tickets, Seattle Seahawks Tickets and Denver Nuggets Tickets.

Page rendered in 0.2003 seconds
56 querie(s) executed