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Monday, August 06, 2007

BASN: THEY STAND ALONE JOSH GIBSON & HANK AARON

The latest inside Van Patter from the BASN offices.

Do you really think the WHITE Sports media OR MLB OR the new “pretender” to the throne is going to talk about Josh Gibson .... not in this world maybe in some parallel or better non-parallel “universe” trillions of light years or is it DARK years away from Planet Earth.

When it comes to the REALITY of Baseball history White America and the White Power Structure in America is conveniently oblivious to the Truth. The problem with the TRUTH in America is the same today as it has always been in America. The TRUTH is “MESSY” for White Supremacy.

The REALITY is Gibson likely hit as many as 1000 Home Runs in his Negro League career and along with that a mind boggling career Batting Average of over .360 which means Gibson was BOTH the GREATEST Home Run Hitter and GREATEST Batter in Baseball history.

Repoz Posted: August 06, 2007 at 03:20 AM | 62 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: negro leagues

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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 06, 2007 at 03:33 AM (#2473394)
Barry Bonds and Hank Aaron are white?
   2. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 06, 2007 at 03:38 AM (#2473398)
I'm so sick of white players like Barry Bonds, Hank Aaron, and Albert Belle ignoring Josh Gibson.
   3. Guts Posted: August 06, 2007 at 03:40 AM (#2473399)
Wow - 1000 HRs?

Cobb's at .366 career, IIRC, which is also over .360.
   4. Jeff K. Posted: August 06, 2007 at 03:51 AM (#2473415)
There are a bunch of guys on this site (I'm looking at you, HoM) who are better equipped than me to respond to this, but I've done quite a bit of reading on the Negro Leagues, and I am completely comfortable in saying the following:

1) Record-keeping was extremely, extremely subpar
2) Given 1, lots of players were able to claim lots of things about their own and other's records that have no way of being substantiated
3) I have never seen anyone claim that Josh Gibson remotely approached 1000 HRs in the Negro Leagues. "Remotely" meaning within 300 homers of that.

I shouldn't respond to a BASN article in a logical manner, but still.
   5. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 06, 2007 at 03:54 AM (#2473418)
I like RANDOMLY capitalizing word in SENTENCES for no other REASON than to confuse AND frustrate those PEOPLE that are trying to read WHAT I wrote.
   6. Jeff K. Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:00 AM (#2473425)
I like RANDOMLY capitalizing word in SENTENCES for no other REASON than to confuse AND frustrate those PEOPLE that are trying to read WHAT I wrote.

It's in the BASN style manual. Seriously.
   7. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:51 AM (#2473469)
A few weeks ago, I saw a guy wearing a BASN t-shirt. Looked like a regular guy.
   8. a bebop a rebop Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:12 AM (#2473477)
That's what we need... another Josh Gibson thread. They're sucking the life out of BBTF.

Also, fixed title: "THEY STAND ALONE... TOGETHER, I GUESS."
   9. Jeff K. Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:17 AM (#2473479)
A few weeks ago, I saw a guy wearing a BASN t-shirt.

They sell t-shirts? If I thought 1% of the population would get it, I would totally wear one.
   10. Law Boy Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:24 AM (#2473483)
The problem with the TRUTH in America is the same today as it has always been in America.


Yet America faced the TRUTH and as a result, MLB INTEGRATED, so even granting the point that Gibson's achievements are not fully recognized, the achievements of those who followed him are.
   11. Iwakuma Chameleon (jonathan) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:28 AM (#2473485)

They sell t-shirts? If I thought 1% of the population would get it, I would totally wear one.



That's immediately what I thought.
   12. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 10:55 AM (#2473548)
I like RANDOMLY capitalizing word in SENTENCES for no other REASON than to confuse AND frustrate those PEOPLE that are trying to read WHAT I wrote.


It's written like that to make it easier for Chuck D to rap it on the new PE album.
   13. Chris Dial Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:11 PM (#2473561)
I am completely comfortable in saying the following:

1) Record-keeping was extremely, extremely subpar
2) Given 1, lots of players were able to claim lots of things about their own and other's records that have no way of being substantiated
3) I have never seen anyone claim that Josh Gibson remotely approached 1000 HRs in the Negro Leagues. "Remotely" meaning within 300 homers of that.


I don't know what books you are reading, but the claims that Gibson hit over 800 HRs is common. And the HOMers are going to tell you that the record-keeping wasn't *that* subpar, and in fact, pretty good (for the NeL games, during which Gibson hit about 225 HRs). The HOMers (and others) fully support Gibson as being so great as to be one of the top 5 greatest hitters of all time.
   14. CrosbyBird Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:17 PM (#2473565)
I like to imagine the writer talking like this in real life, randomly screaming a word and returning to a normal tone of voice.

HONEY, can you please PASS the butter and THE salt?

Young MAN, that is not an ACCEPTABLE way to speak TO your mother.

What SEEMS to be the problem, OFFICER?
   15. TVerik, who wonders what the hell is "Ansky" Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:20 PM (#2473569)
#14 feels like an SNL skit that is kind of funny at first, but goes on for like eighteen minutes.
   16. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:24 PM (#2473571)
Sadaharu Oh is tired of the omnipotent black American media hiding the TRUTH about his accomplishments.
   17. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:42 PM (#2473584)
Perhaps BASN is the work of Paul Mooney, working at two levels.
   18. Dr Love Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:52 PM (#2473591)
#14 feels like an SNL skit that is kind of funny at first, but goes on for like eighteen minutes.


I feel that way about the ESPN Deportes segment of Sports Center.
   19. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:52 PM (#2473592)
I agree with Dial's assessment.
-Gibson is typically noted as having over 800 career HR (but that number is way pumped up with his play against all competition, not just against NgL competition).
-He's the consesus best hitter in NgL history.
-Lots of folks think he, not Foxx is the right-handed Ruth.
   20. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:52 PM (#2473593)
I wonder if this guy also uses a lot of EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!! when he takes down a phone message announcing the birth of a baby. I sure hope so, at least if the baby's black.
   21. I Left Tim Raines Down In Africa Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:58 PM (#2473598)
There's a The Dark Side with Nat X skit somewhere in this article, I can feel it...
   22. Rally Posted: August 06, 2007 at 01:08 PM (#2473604)
In my opinion Gibson was one of the top 10 hitters of all time. If you put him in the top 5, I won't argue, he might have been. I would not put him in the top 3 though. Baseball is a discriminating sport, and Gibson was unfortunate enough to have been born right handed. Its no coincidence that the top 4 hitters in OPS+ are all lefthanded. If you take the 5-10 best hitters ever, people who have absolutely maxed out the ability to hit a baseball, the ones who hit lefty are going to have the best stats simply because of the platoon advantage.
   23. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 06, 2007 at 01:56 PM (#2473648)
I agree with Dial's assessment.
-Gibson is typically noted as having over 800 career HR (but that number is way pumped up with his play against all competition, not just against NgL competition).
-He's the consesus best hitter in NgL history.
-Lots of folks think he, not Foxx is the right-handed Ruth.


Except that Chris is inferring that we (the Hall of Merit) think he may have been able to hit 1,000 homers, which none of us have even hinted at. Half of that is more in the ballpark (which I know Chris thinks is about 500 homers too much, but I'm not getting involved in that debate again :-)
   24. Chris Dial Posted: August 06, 2007 at 02:02 PM (#2473655)
Except that Chris is inferring that we (the Hall of Merit) think he may have been able to hit 1,000 homers, which none of us have even hinted at.

No I am doing nothing of the sort. I'm saying you think 800 is a realistic number (or at least 87% of that).
   25. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 06, 2007 at 03:16 PM (#2473745)
No I am doing nothing of the sort. I'm saying you think 800 is a realistic number (or at least 87% of that).


No, I don't think 800 is a realistic number. In fact, I'm positive you wont find a post that states that (or 700, for that matter), Chris.

I've stated that I thought he would be somewhere in the 500's, that's it. But you can prove me wrong, if you can.
   26. Dan Szymborski Posted: August 06, 2007 at 03:42 PM (#2473781)
When I make rankings, I tend to put Gibson to the side with a note "Gibson was an awesome player and he's somewhere on this list, but I'll be damned if I know hwere."
   27. Rally Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:02 PM (#2473800)
I've stated that I thought he would be somewhere in the 500's, that's it. But you can prove me wrong, if you can.

Sounds about right. 800/900/1000 or whatever is trying to count year-round games against all levels of competition. Ruth did a lot of barnstorming and played exhibitions against Negro leaguers. Maybe he hit 1000 homers too.

Had Gibson had the opportunity to play a 140 game MLB schedule, its hard to see him hitting much more than 500, considering he wasn't around after age 36 to pad the numbers.
   28. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:13 PM (#2473804)
When I make rankings, I tend to put Gibson to the side with a note "Gibson was an awesome player and he's somewhere on this list, but I'll be damned if I know hwere."


That's totally understandable, Dan, and that was my position before I saw his MLEs and learned more about him as a player and his era.

BTW, let me be perfectly clear here: while I feel Gibson is the greatest catcher of all-time, it's only my opinion and is only a guess. Mind you, it's an educated guess based on creditable analysis, but still a guess. No different than my stating that Ruth would still be the greatest hitter of all-time today - it can't be 100% proven. Maybe 99%, though. ;-)

Sounds about right. 800/900/1000 or whatever is trying to count year-round games against all levels of competition.


Those numbers are nuts and not based on anything approaching as scientific.
   29. GGC Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:29 PM (#2473819)
How many home runs did Ruth hit if you include exhibition games?
   30. CrosbyBird Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:30 PM (#2473820)
I feel that way about the ESPN Deportes segment of Sports Center.

That segment always reminds me of the old bit with Jimmy Smits where all the white broadcasters use obnoxiously heavy accents on the one or two Spanish words in a sentence. Dana Carvey was particularly over the top.

That, or Alex Trebek.
   31. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:33 PM (#2473825)
I was hanging out with a buddy of mine this weekend who is an obsessive collector of Latin baseball stuff. Part of what he owns are books chronicling the stats of the Cuban and Venezuelan leagues and I spent some time poring over them. What strikes me about Gibson (yes, I know I'm about to repeat myself) is that he was always the best hitter in whatver league he played in. Mexico, Cuba, Venezuela, Puerto Rico...the guy just showed up and raked. He never seemed to struggle as a hitter and in a few stadiums he would sometimes be the ONLY player to hit a ball over the fence. Of course he didn't hit anywhere near 800 homeruns because in the context he operated in that would be impossible. Short seasons, mushy balls, huge parks. Babe Ruth wouldn't have hit 300 official home runs in those conditions. The BASN article is obviously stupid, but Gibson was legit.

Anyway, here we go again. Maybe we should just link to the Ichiro thread.
   32. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:45 PM (#2473844)
Does anyone have a link to Gibson's stats or MLE's or any reasoned discussion on his merits as a player? I've heard of him and they make the tour guides here mention that he is one of only two people to come close to hitting a homer out of the Stadium (or actually doing it, I dont't remember, it's something about a long HR), but I've never actually looked into him. Instead, I just kind of dismissed the need to mention Gibson in the tour as a way of saying "we love Blacks, no really" prior to mentioning the segregation thing. Anyway, if one of you could help make me a little more educated on the topic, it would be much appreciated, thanks.
   33. aberg Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:50 PM (#2473854)
If you take the 5-10 best hitters ever, people who have absolutely maxed out the ability to hit a baseball, the ones who hit lefty are going to have the best stats simply because of the platoon advantage.


I see where you're going, but you're only taking 1/2 of the genetic probability into effect. If right-handed pitchers are more common, then so are right-handed hitters, so there should be more uniquely talented righties than lefties at the plate, too. If you were somehow able to rate everyone on a scale of 0-100 with 0 being no hitting talent and 100 being perfect, there has never been a 0 or a 100 in human history. The best hitters were closer to perfect, but only in degrees. Babe Ruth may have been an 85 or 90 or something, but there was some component of hitting that he could have improved to be better overall- footspeed for example. In the same sense, since there are more right handed people in the population, the probability of having a 92 or a 93 in terms of natural talent would more likely come from the north-paw selection. This has to make up for the platoon effect to some extent. Since the proportions are equal, i think it would be pretty close to even. History seems to disagree, though, maybe because left-handed swings look so much prettier.

Also, shooty, hiphopopotamus > rhymenocerous
   34. Jeff K. Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:01 PM (#2473865)
Chris, you missed a key part of my statement. I've never seen anyone claim Gibson hit 1000 HRs *in the Negro Leagues*. As someone else points out, even the claims of 800 include barnstorming and the like, which you absolutely cannot count in any meaningful way.
   35. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:05 PM (#2473871)
Chris, you missed a key part of my statement. I've never seen anyone claim Gibson hit 1000 HRs *in the Negro Leagues*.


Nobody from the Hall of Merit has ever claimed that, either.
   36. Chris Dial Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:20 PM (#2473889)
Nobody from the Hall of Merit has ever claimed that, either.

You should review the last thread where I asked how many HRs he hit and that I see his line as 225 HRs, and I was repeatedly told he hit way more than that.

Pick-up games don't count.
   37. Jeff K. Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:34 PM (#2473908)
Does anyone have a link to Gibson's stats or MLE's or any reasoned discussion on his merits as a player?

To learn more about Josh Gibson, please visit your local library.

Doo doo dah

The more you know.
   38. Juan V Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:41 PM (#2473915)
Does anyone have a link to Gibson's stats or MLE's or any reasoned discussion on his merits as a player? I've heard of him and they make the tour guides here mention that he is one of only two people to come close to hitting a homer out of the Stadium (or actually doing it, I dont't remember, it's something about a long HR), but I've never actually looked into him. Instead, I just kind of dismissed the need to mention Gibson in the tour as a way of saying "we love Blacks, no really" prior to mentioning the segregation thing. Anyway, if one of you could help make me a little more educated on the topic, it would be much appreciated, thanks.


Hall of Merit thread on Josh Gibson
   39. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:41 PM (#2473916)
You should review the last thread where I asked how many HRs he hit and that I see his line as 225 HRs, and I was repeatedly told he hit way more than that.

Pick-up games don't count.


Who is counting pick-up games?!

Again, in the NeL, he hit 225 homers (or whatever that number is, since I don't have it memorized).
   40. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:41 PM (#2473917)
Does anyone have a link to Gibson's stats or MLE's or any reasoned discussion on his merits as a player?

Here's the HOM discussion.
   41. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:50 PM (#2473929)
Also, shooty, hiphopopotamus > rhymenocerous

Yes, I agree, dammit. Why didn't I think of that?
   42. Bourbon Samurai, what price fettucine? Posted: August 06, 2007 at 08:57 PM (#2474166)
Also, shooty, hiphopopotamus > rhymenocerous


Where did you get that preposterous hypothesis? Did Steve tell you that, perchance?
   43. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:07 PM (#2474178)
How many HRs would Ichiro have hit in the Negro Leagues?
   44. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:09 PM (#2474182)
How many HRs would Sadaharu Oh have hit in the Negro Leagues?

How many HRs would Babe Ruth have hit if he had played in Japan?

How many HRs would Barry Bonds have hit if he were born in Cuba?
   45. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili (TeddyF.Ballgame) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:13 PM (#2474185)
In batting practice or in games?
   46. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:17 PM (#2474192)
If David Beckham were an American, how many HRs would he have hit?
   47. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:18 PM (#2474195)
3) I have never seen anyone claim that Josh Gibson remotely approached 1000 HRs in the Negro Leagues. "Remotely" meaning within 300 homers of that.


I once did a fair bit of research of the old Negro Leagues with help from the HOF and David Pinto (and some others were amazingly helpful).

Highest estimate I came across was 970-something (might have been 977--it's been 11 years since I did the research). Quite a few mentioned "at least 900," the vast majority "800+ easy" FWIW.

Bottom line--he hit the living crap out of the baseball.

Best Regards

John
   48. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:24 PM (#2474198)
How many Premier League goals would Allen Iverson have scored if he were born in Liberia?
   49. McCoy Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:29 PM (#2474206)
How many home runs did Ruth hit if you include exhibition games?

322 exhibition homers
15 World Series Homers
1 All star homer
714 Regular Season Homers
1 Regular Season homer taken away
1053 Total Homers

Then of course you got the fair foul problem in which at least 78 of Ruths hits land foul past the fence with Jenkinson believing that at least 50 of them should have been ruled a homer.

So when it is all said and done Ruth probably hit over 1100 homers in his professional career.
   50. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:31 PM (#2474207)
How many home runs would Babe Ruth have hit if he'd gone running boarding with Pete Gray? And also he was a chicken? But not one of those Foster Farms one, a steroided-up one? And what if they'd had the DH so he'd never shown how good of a hitter he was? And Prohibition hadn't happened? And what of hot dogs?
   51. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:31 PM (#2474210)
1 Regulat Season homer taken away


I tawt I taw a regulat!

Best Regards

John
   52. Ray (CTL) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:47 PM (#2474225)
If David Beckham were an American, how many HRs would he have hit?

While these are jokes, they're unfortunately not far removed from an ESPN segment currently rucurring on SportsCenter, called "Who's Now?" (I don't watch SportsCenter but I happened to catch a discussion of this on a local radio show.) Apparently, ESPN has three analysts discussing who is more "Now" (whatever that means) where the typical comparison is something like Shaquille O'Neal vs. Roger Federer.

Not a joke.
   53. Jeff K. Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:49 PM (#2474226)
I once did a fair bit of research of the old Negro Leagues with help from the HOF and David Pinto (and some others were amazingly helpful).

Highest estimate I came across was 970-something (might have been 977--it's been 11 years since I did the research). Quite a few mentioned "at least 900," the vast majority "800+ easy" FWIW.


John, I'm fairly positive that I'm not misunderstanding you, and that the 977, or 800, or whatever, are all counting all of his homers against all competition. Not homers in the Negro Leagues, which is what my statement originally was, because that's what BASN's statement was. He did not hit 970 homers in Negro League play. He hit some number of homers in Negro League play (I know more research has been done since the last time I read much) and a bunch, bunch more in barnstorming and exhibitions. Claiming these homers on his "Negro League" record is wrong, claiming them as proof he hit more homers than anyone else is intellectually dishonest, unless one has tabulated Babe Ruth's exhibition homers and added them to 714.

I'm not trying to say Gibson couldn't hit the #### out of the ball. I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of their statement.
   54. vortex of dissipation Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:50 PM (#2474227)
How many home runs did Ruth hit if you include exhibition games?

322 exhibition homers
15 World Series Homers
1 All star homer
714 Regular Season Homers
1 Regular Season homer taken away
1053 Total Homers


Plus one minor league home run.
   55. Rodder Posted: August 06, 2007 at 10:13 PM (#2474237)
How many home runs did Ruth hit if you include exhibition games?

322 exhibition homers
15 World Series Homers
1 All star homer
714 Regular Season Homers
1 Regular Season homer taken away
1053 Total Homers

Plus one minor league home run.


Plus one in The Pride of the Yankees. I don't believe William Bendix or John Goodman's homers should be included, though.
   56. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: August 06, 2007 at 10:17 PM (#2474240)
Does The Whammer's strikeout against Roy Hobbs count?
   57. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:11 PM (#2474269)
Claiming these homers on his "Negro League" record is wrong, claiming them as proof he hit more homers than anyone else is intellectually dishonest, unless one has tabulated Babe Ruth's exhibition homers and added them to 714.


Exactly.

BTW, there was a Baseball Research Journal issue a few years back that estimated Oh with numbers similar to Willie McCovey if he had played in the US instead of Japan. That sounds plausible.
   58. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili (TeddyF.Ballgame) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:36 PM (#2474282)
Prospectus likewise put Oh somewhere a bit north of 500 dingers in a neutralized MLB context.
   59. PerroX Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:47 PM (#2474290)
800 is a realistic number...

Of posts on a Josh Gibson thread.

To save bandwidth, just go here for your Josh Gibson fix.

As for BASN, I'm beginning to suspect it's run by white supremacists.
   60. PerroX Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:59 PM (#2474296)
Fuel for my theory (scroll to bottom of this link ):

BASN POLL

Do you consider BlackAthlete.com a racist site?

* Yes
* No

Also, these links are a dead givaway:


Focus On History

Entertainment
   61. McCoy Posted: August 07, 2007 at 12:29 AM (#2474321)
BTW, there was a Baseball Research Journal issue a few years back that estimated Oh with numbers similar to Willie McCovey if he had played in the US instead of Japan. That sounds plausible.

That would be Jim Albright's projection which has Oh at 527 homers. He has him hitting about 30 homers a year.
   62. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: August 07, 2007 at 12:55 AM (#2474358)
Just finished reading the Gibson HOM thread. Awesome stuff, thanks for the links. I think I'm going to try and pick up a Negro League book or a Gibson book. Any recommendations?

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