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Wednesday, May 23, 2018

Bautista must be last over-the-hill vet the Mets take a chance on

Is this really the best the Mets can do to fill out their roster?

Jim Furtado Posted: May 23, 2018 at 06:59 AM | 53 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: jose bautista, mets

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   1. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 23, 2018 at 09:37 AM (#5677963)
It certainly betrays a lack of imagination.
   2. karlmagnus Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:14 AM (#5677987)
Bautista's current .624 OPS+ is a lot better than his batting average, and is actually quite respectable for the bottom end of a 25-man roster. He has always batted for a low average, but made up for it with walks and power, and is only three years off a .913 OPS. I would certainly have signed him as an isolated decision; the problem is that the Mets also have A-Gon, whose skills are pretty similar, and probably slightly better, since he's younger. But for the Marlins or Tampa Bay, a young lousy team with no money, Bautista would be a great pickup. Even for the Mets, he could well work out OK.
   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5677990)
Bautista's current .624 OPS+ is a lot better than his batting average,

He's got a 71 wRC+. That's awful. It was 80 last season. He's over 700 PAs of being dreadful at the plate.

His defense is also awful.

and is actually quite respectable for the bottom end of a 25-man roster.

Only if you're a backup catcher, or slick fielding SS. For a -10 corner OF, it's total unacceptable.
   4. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:23 AM (#5677994)
We had this conversation in Braves-land when Anthopoulos took this year's initial flyer on Joey. I'll ask the same question of Mets fans that I asked of my fellow Braves fans. Who does this move off of the field? In Atlanta's case, Bats took away playing time from the absurdly over-his-head start of Ryan Flaherty, and would have likely pushed Charlie Culberson off the roster and down to AAA (had Dansby Swanson not hurt his wrist and created the room for Culberson to stay in Atlanta while he was on the DL.)

In the end, Atlanta decided that Joey's limited offensive profile, and his even more limited defense on the infield (where we were playing him at 3B), didn't improve on the alternate option of Swanson at SS and Johan Camargo/Flaherty platooning at third. They basically decided that Culberson's speed and defense were more valuable as the 25th man on the roster than Bats' bat.

The Mets at least have him back in LF, where he's less of an obvious defensive drain than at 3B. But I honestly don't know who he's displacing in the lineup and field, so I don't know if it's particularly right or wrong, in either case.
   5. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:26 AM (#5677995)
But I honestly don't know who he's displacing in the lineup and field, so I don't know if it's particularly right or wrong, in either case.

He's below replacement level and 37 y.o. It really doesn't matter.

A random AAAA OF should produce around the same.
   6. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:29 AM (#5677998)
Looks like he moved Jay Bruce out of the lineup last night. Bruce is struggling this year, but I don't know that Bats is a better bet than 31 year old Bruce to regain form. And clearly Cespedes is better when he gets healthy again.
   7. PreservedFish Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:32 AM (#5678001)
Who does this move off of the field?


Tebow? I think the Mets organization is down to about 3 OFers.
   8. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:34 AM (#5678002)
Well, they seem to have all of the AAAA resources deployed already. Brandon Nimmo is their starting RF. They're playing Wilmer friggin' Flores at FIRST. Their catching situation is abysmal. Their OF is decimated by injuries to Lagares and Cespedes. I have no faith in Bats recovering much (he didn't show anything at all in his tryout in ATL), but desperately seeking a real platoon partner for Gonzalez at 1B and someone other than Wilmer Flores to be your #1 stick off the bench isn't a bad idea, no matter where you look for miracles.
   9. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5678007)
only three years off a .913 OPS.
Come on, three years in baseball is a very long time, especially three years age 34-37.
   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5678008)
but desperately seeking a real platoon partner for Gonzalez at 1B and someone other than Wilmer Flores to be your #1 stick off the bench isn't a bad idea, no matter where you look for miracles.

Sure, but as I said in [1], looking for that miracle in Bautista certainly shows no imagination.
   11. bfan Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:46 AM (#5678012)
That the Braves dumped Bautista and kept Ryan Flaherty says a lot here.
   12. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5678013)
Of all the things in my life that I like, I hate the Mets the most.
   13. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5678014)
Sure, but as I said in [1], looking for that miracle in Bautista certainly shows no imagination.


It's a desperation move, certainly. The guys that would be getting called up instead - Victor Robles and Alejandro de Aza notably - are on the DL at AAA. Maybe it's "smarter" to give Moses Sierra a shot, but dude's a 29 journeyman repeater at AAA.
   14. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:50 AM (#5678015)
That the Braves dumped Bautista and kept Ryan Flaherty says a lot here.


Sure. But the fit with the Mets is a little better, in that they need a live body in the OF and maybe 1B, not Joey pretending he still knows how to play 3B.
   15. Adam Starblind Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:53 AM (#5678018)

He's below replacement level and 37 y.o. It really doesn't matter.

A random AAAA OF should produce around the same.


Frankly I'd expect den Dekker to be better, maybe on both sides of the ball.
   16. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:55 AM (#5678020)
Joey bats RH which is something the Mets desperately lack with Lagares Cespedes and Frazier out of the lineup and Wilmer not really mashing LHP in the manner to which we've become accustomed. Probably just a short term accommodation, not going to kill them. They really can't hit LHP right now though.
   17. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:57 AM (#5678024)
Frankly I'd expect den Dekker to be better, maybe on both sides of the ball.

Yes.
   18. Adam Starblind Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:58 AM (#5678025)



Well, they seem to have all of the AAAA resources deployed already. Brandon Nimmo is their starting RF.


Calling Nimmo AAAA is stupid. He's hitting .244 .410 .423 with average defense, which is perfectly consistent with his career so far (he doesn't hit lefties, but hasn't been shielded from them either). In a full season's worth of ABs, he'd be on track for more than 4 bWAR.
   19. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 23, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5678037)
The thing that disappoints me about the Mets is Alderson's and his management team. We can blame payroll all we want but he the Braves and the Phillies are likely better than the Mets right now and look to have brighter futures despite the fact they have had smaller payrolls recently than the Mets.

It seems like the Braves, Phillies, and Nationals have their run of dominance in the NL East and the Mets and Marlins never get their turn. The Marlins haven't really made winning a priority. It speaks poorly of Alderson and his team that the Mets don't appear able to build a consistent winner anymore than the Marlins are.
   20. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5678046)
The Marlins haven't really made winning a priority.
Much like Trump hasn't placed full emphasis on truth and decorum.
   21. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 23, 2018 at 11:18 AM (#5678047)
The thing that disappoints me about the Mets is Alderson's and his management team.

He's 70 years old, and has had cancer surgery. It would be no surprise if he no longer had the energy, and single mindedness needed to run a team.

How many executives are still at the top of their game at 70?
   22. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 23, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5678050)
I'm not going to avoid criticizing Sandy, but I do think it starts at the top. The Wilpons hired Sandy because they know he is good at making chicken salad out of chicken ####. That has always been his strength. It is really stupid that McNeil and Alonso are raking in the minors (not in Vegas either which everyone knows is a joke) and they are signing Jose Bautista instead of seeing what your 26 year old minor leaguers can do.
   23. PreservedFish Posted: May 23, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5678055)
He's 70 years old, and has had cancer surgery. It would be no surprise if he no longer had the energy, and single mindedness needed to run a team.


I think his boss has told him "we're not spending big and we're not rebuilding, good luck."
   24. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 23, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5678056)
Calling Nimmo AAAA is stupid. He's hitting .244 .410 .423 with average defense, which is perfectly consistent with his career so far (he doesn't hit lefties, but hasn't been shielded from them either). In a full season's worth of ABs, he'd be on track for more than 4 bWAR.


What WAS stupid was signing Jay Bruce considering Nimmo is a cromulent baseball player who can play all 3 OF positions. Then bringing in Adrian Gonzalez to play 1B instead of using the money they used to get Bruce to get someone actually good. Of course 2/5 of the OF are currently not in the lineup so I suppose Bruce is necessary now. But wait...here comes Joey Bats! It's like they are collecting players from 2011. Reyes needs to be gone too.
   25. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 23, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5678085)
FREE BRANDON NIMMO
   26. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 23, 2018 at 12:12 PM (#5678102)
I think his boss has told him "we're not spending big and we're not rebuilding, good luck."

Agreed.

And if you're 70 y.o., and on your last rodeo, you're not going to scour the world to find a 1 WAR guy, rather than 0 (or -1 WAR) jose Bautista.
   27. formerly dp Posted: May 23, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5678104)
What WAS stupid was signing Jay Bruce considering Nimmo is a cromulent baseball player who can play all 3 OF positions. Then bringing in Adrian Gonzalez to play 1B instead of using the money they used to get Bruce to get someone actually good. Of course 2/5 of the OF are currently not in the lineup so I suppose Bruce is necessary now. But wait...here comes Joey Bats! It's like they are collecting players from 2011. Reyes needs to be gone too.

Yeah, Bruce was a guy they were trying without success to deal going into 2017--and then, a year later and a year older, they committed 3 years to him. Of course, at the time, they assumed that Conforto would still be out well into May, and I think that informed their thinking, but still...don't sign a guy for 3 years to fill a 3-month hole.

The Indians just called up Melky Cabrera and someone just signed Michael Saunders, so it's not like there's a ton of OF talent just sitting around waiting for the call. I agree that DD would be better on both sides, but he's lefty and the Mets needs someone who can hit RHP right now, with Lagares *and* Cespedes *and* Frazier all out.

FFS Cecchini's on the Vegas DL right now. They have Asche on the roster there, but he's a lefty too, and IIRC has pretty severe platoon splits.
   28. Lassus Posted: May 23, 2018 at 12:22 PM (#5678107)
I picked a fine time to not start sniffing glue.
   29. formerly dp Posted: May 23, 2018 at 12:33 PM (#5678116)
"This offense would be lost without Asdrubal Cabrera" is not a phrase you want to have to utter often. But 1/3 of their starting lineup is on the DL right now, along with 2 of their first-line backups.

Matt Harvey in 3 starts with the Reds: WHIP under 1.00, 12 strikeouts in 14 innings. I don't necessarily think he would have done the same with the Mets, but it's encouraging. Mesoraco has a .900 OPS, so looking like a win-win early on.
   30. Adam Starblind Posted: May 23, 2018 at 04:08 PM (#5678381)
I don't necessarily think he would have done the same with the Mets


This. Harvey is a player with "makeup" issues (I don't mean he wears lipstick). Psychologically, I don't think he could have succeeded anymore in NY. In any case, even if he's cromulent from now on, he's a FA after the season; not a hugely valuable piece to trade away.
   31. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: May 23, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5678397)
They have Asche on the roster there, but he's a lefty too, and IIRC has pretty severe platoon splits.


Nah, he sucks against righties and sucks against lefties.

Vs. RH .234 .292 .381
Vs. LH .237 .295 .352

And he's a better hitter than fielder.
   32. TVerik, who wonders what the hell is "Ansky" Posted: May 23, 2018 at 04:54 PM (#5678408)
Bautista's current .624 OPS+ is a lot better than his batting average


I mean, I don't love BA as an indicator. But I'd say that if Joey Bats was hitting .624, he would be an MVP candidate.
   33. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 23, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5678475)
This Jose Bautista signing would have fit in very neatly with the 2008 Mets' left field fill-in parade of Marlon Anderson, Trot Nixon, Nick Evans, Damian Easley and the other seven volunteers who grabbed a glove after Moises Alou got hurt, and after Alou got hurt again.
   34. Adam Starblind Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5678854)
It is really stupid that McNeil and Alonso are raking in the minors (not in Vegas either which everyone knows is a joke) and they are signing Jose Bautista instead of seeing what your 26 year old minor leaguers can do.


Alonso is 23. But what's gotten into McNeil? Steroids? He's never hit for power before.
   35. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5678880)
It's absolutely crazy to me that they wouldn't use this opportunity to take a look at Bryce Brentz.

Oh well. Not my team, not my problem.
   36. JJ1986 Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:36 AM (#5678899)
Brentz is on the DL at Las Vegas.
   37. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5678961)
OK, that makes a bit more sense.
   38. KronicFatigue Posted: May 24, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5678962)
What WAS stupid was signing Jay Bruce considering Nimmo is a cromulent baseball player who can play all 3 OF positions. Then bringing in Adrian Gonzalez to play 1B instead of using the money they used to get Bruce to get someone actually good.


This was the key moment where the 2018 lineup got messed up. I've always been a fan of the 4th OF being good defensively, so I would have been happy with an OF of: Cespedes, Conforto, Nimmo, & Lagares. Nimmo feels more like a solid 4th than starting RF, but the Mets had enough holes elsewhere to justify being content with this group of OF. And leaning into defense, especially early in the season, helps ease the burden on pitching, which had its own set of question marks.

Frazier was a solid pickup and middle infield was set. Flores is a decent backup. I guess I was just presuming Smith would slot in at first base, and I don't follow enough to know why that wasn't the plan.

Old guys like Gonzalez and Bautista have such unbreakable ceiling, and roster inflexibility, that they don't seem worth the effort. Take a flyer on a generic replacement level AAAA, heck take a flyer on 4 of them. A young guy hitting poorly will still be more exciting for a fanbase than an old guy with the same numbers. It's easier for fans to squint and delude themselves into thinking the team has a future.

Bautistia feels like desperation.
   39. PreservedFish Posted: May 24, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5678965)
Of course it's desperation. They're desperate.
   40. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5678966)
This Jose Bautista signing would have fit in very neatly with the 2008 Mets' left field fill-in parade of Marlon Anderson, Trot Nixon, Nick Evans, Damian Easley and the other seven volunteers who grabbed a glove after Moises Alou got hurt, and after Alou got hurt again.


Too bad there wasn't an OF available who had led the league in OPS+ the year before and willing to play for the league minimum.
   41. Adam Starblind Posted: May 24, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5679000)
[40] Grrr...
   42. manchestermets Posted: May 24, 2018 at 06:50 PM (#5679208)
Of course he must be the last one. But he won't, will he?
   43. Walt Davis Posted: May 24, 2018 at 07:18 PM (#5679217)
it's not like there's a ton of OF talent just sitting around waiting for the call.

This. Granted, Bautista is still a desperate move. But the DBacks have been playing Daniel Descalso in LF, Owings in RF, lots of Dyson and now Pollock is on the DL. As mentioned, the Indians have 3 OF on the DL and grabbed Melky Cabrera. The O's are very happy to have the mediocre Mancini in LF and Jones in CF but are back to giving Joey Rickard another chance in RF. The Ms are already giving time to Ben Gamel and Dee Gordon has hit the DL. The A's have Mark Canha playing CF (and apparently doing OK) while Piscotty has a 76 OPS+ and Dustin Fowler hasn't hit. The Rox regret bringing back CarGo (61 OPS+), are giving plenty of time to Parra (82 OPS+), Dahl (83) and Noel Cuevas (79). And speaking of CarGo, the other one has a 66 OPS+ and is on the DL and Kiermaier is already out for a long while.

With some obvious exceptions, OF may be at an all-time low. Whenever I despair over a Heyward PA or a Happ cold streak or Zobrist's age I try to remind myself how the other half lives.
   44. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:54 PM (#5679257)
The thing that disappoints me about the Mets is Alderson's and his management team. We can blame payroll all we want but he the Braves and the Phillies are likely better than the Mets right now and look to have brighter futures despite the fact they have had smaller payrolls recently than the Mets.
This Sandy hate is beyond ridiculous. Not only did the Amazins win the pennant with a slightly above-median payroll, when did the Braves and Phillies last have winning seasons? 2013 and 2011?
   45. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:33 PM (#5679394)
Then bringing in Adrian Gonzalez to play 1B instead of using the money they used to get Bruce to get someone actually good.
Have you got a name of a free agent who was ready to play 1B at $13M per annum? Maybe Duda? Who else?
   46. Howie Menckel Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:40 PM (#5679402)
might be a dead cat bounce in May, but AdGonz got his OPS+ up to 113 entering today. that's not going to make or break your team.
   47. Adam Starblind Posted: May 25, 2018 at 06:58 AM (#5679427)
Nimmo is now hitting .294/.450/.541. He's an everyday player.
   48. Greg K Posted: May 25, 2018 at 08:12 AM (#5679431)
Bautista's current .624 OPS+ is a lot better than his batting average


I mean, I don't love BA as an indicator. But I'd say that if Joey Bats was hitting .624, he would be an MVP candidate.

Although if his OPS+ was under 1, it would be a pretty hollow average. Must be bunting a lot.
   49. Greg K Posted: May 25, 2018 at 08:14 AM (#5679432)
Have you got a name of a free agent who was ready to play 1B at $13M per annum? Maybe Duda? Who else?

I'm sure the Jays could have been convinced to part with Kendrys Morales for nothing. That's like signing a free agent! A steal at just 11m a year.
   50. Swoboda is freedom Posted: May 25, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5679583)
Have you got a name of a free agent who was ready to play 1B at $13M per annum? Maybe Duda? Who else?

Hanley Ramirez just got DFA'd by the Red Sox. Maybe the Mets will have another chance to sign an over the hill player.
   51. Howie Menckel Posted: May 25, 2018 at 07:59 PM (#5679754)
but the Mets must not do it - says it in the headline
   52. Adam Starblind Posted: May 27, 2018 at 07:54 PM (#5680434)
They need to swap Gsellman and Lugo into the rotation for Vargas and Wheeler.
   53. Howie Menckel Posted: May 27, 2018 at 08:21 PM (#5680440)
Lugo replacing Vargas is imminent.

Wheeler - who K'd 6 in his last 3 IP today - won't be leaving the rotation soon, and especially not for Gsellman given that horro-pen

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