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Wednesday, July 27, 2011

Beltran to Giants

@TBrownYahoo Tim Brown
Looks like Beltran is indeed going to SF, according to source. Logistics being worked out.

The newest star of The Franchise!

Gamingboy Posted: July 27, 2011 at 05:48 PM | 131 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: giants, mets

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   1. Into the Void Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:33 PM (#3886841)
Has Beltran played any LF with the Mets? At this point I'd rather have Schierholtz in the lineup instead of Ross.
   2. The District Attorney Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:42 PM (#3886845)
Beltran has one inning in LF this year. He had 18.2 in 2000. That is his LF history.

Hopefully, absence will make the average Met fan's heart grow fonder with respect to Beltran. Also hopefully, we got something decent for him ;-) Sounds like we probably did.
   3. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:42 PM (#3886846)
No. Just RF.
   4. Sam M. Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:42 PM (#3886848)
Has Beltran played any LF with the Mets?

With the mega-force that is Jason Bay??? You're joking, right?

Seriously, no. Beltran has been the everyday right-fielder this year. No left field.
   5. PreservedFish Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:48 PM (#3886850)
I don't understand the point of the question in #1. Is Beltran capable of playing left field? Of course he is, he's one of the most fluid and natural defenders of his generation. Is he going to switch positions to accommodate Nate ####### Schierholtz? Hell no. Beltran leads your team in Runs, Hits, Doubles, Triples, Homeruns, RBI, walks, OBP, SLG and WAR. And salary. And fame. He's your best player. Nate Schierholtz can move to left.
   6. Bourbon Samurai in Asia Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:50 PM (#3886853)
Glad to see him stay in the NL.
   7. Sam M. Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:51 PM (#3886854)
If it's Zack Wheeler, BA had him ranked # 55 in its Top 100 (# 2 in the Giants system) at the start of the year. In the midseason update (put out on July 7), Wheeler was up to # 35. Interestingly Brown had zoomed to # 33 after not being in the Top 100 to start the season. LINK.

Ben Badler tweeted: "I like Zack Wheeler. I do. Big upside. Just want to see him put 150 innings on that arm before going nuts."
   8. Into the Void Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:52 PM (#3886857)
I don't understand the point of the question in #1. Is Beltran capable of playing left field? Of course he is, he's one of the most fluid and natural defenders of his generation. Is he going to switch positions to accommodate Nate ####### Schierholtz? Hell no. Beltran leads your team in Runs, Hits, Doubles, Triples, Homeruns, RBI, walks, OBP, SLG and WAR. And salary. And fame. He's your best player. Nate Schierholtz can move to left.


I'm so sorry Sir! Please accept my apology. You see, since Schierholtz has been hitting well, and has never played left, I was simply curious if Beltran had any experience playing left. I'm so sorry!
   9. Mom makes botox doctors furious Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:52 PM (#3886859)
exciting stuff. is there any downside to this for the Giants???
   10. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:53 PM (#3886860)
Ben Badler tweeted: "I like Zack Wheeler. I do. Big upside. Just want to see him put 150 innings on that arm before going nuts."


He missed a large part of last season due to a finger issue, so he is still very raw.
   11. Sam M. Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:55 PM (#3886865)
is there any downside to this for the Giants???

Sure. They don't make the play-offs this year, or they do but go out in the first round and Beltran helps them not at all. Meanwhile, Zack Wheeler ends up having his number retired after winning 300 games for the Mets. As a bonus, Carlos Beltran returns to the Mets next spring after Boras gives Alderson a hometown discount, and the Mets will have gotten a HOF pitcher for 2+ months of Beltran. Voila.
   12. The Artist Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:57 PM (#3886868)
Crossposted from the other thread;


Goddamnit! I did not want to give up Wheeler to a Mets team that has no frigging leverage.


This seems like a dumb move. Beltran is a damn good player, but he's a 2 win improvement at most for a Giants team that's better than the D-backs anyway. The Mets HAD to trade Beltran in the next 4 days, and their other choices were divisional rivals who would not give up a top arm. WTF Sabean?
   13. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:58 PM (#3886869)
re [11]

I could listen to him for hours...
   14. formerly dp Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:58 PM (#3886870)
Hopefully, absence will make the average Met fan's heart grow fonder with respect to Beltran. Also hopefully, we got something decent for him ;-) Sounds like we probably did.

I am sad to see him go, especially given the awesome season he's had so far. The rock in the lineup with Wright, Reyes, and Davis out. I'm wondering if they're just going to stick Duda out there everyday, defense be damned, or give Pridie and Hairston more time. Guessing Nick Evans gets called up to take his spot.
   15. Kyle S at work Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:00 PM (#3886871)
If the Mutts get Zack Wheeler for 2 months of Beltran, IMO, that's a effin' A trade. Probably 80% chance Wheeler doesn't reach his ceiling, but his ceiling is very high.
   16. formerly dp Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:00 PM (#3886872)
Carlos Beltran returns to the Mets next spring

I know it would be an irrational move, but I'd like to see this. And, sign Reyes no matter what it costs.
   17. Sam M. Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:01 PM (#3886873)
Beltran is a damn good player, but he's a 2 win improvement at most for a Giants team that's better than the D-backs anyway. The Mets HAD to trade Beltran in the next 4 days, and their other choices were divisional rivals who would not give up a top arm. WTF Sabean?

If I were Sabean, my answer would be, "This is for the games after we dispose of the Diamondbacks." The goal isn't to win the NL West. The goal is to repeat as world champions, and Sabean might simply believe (as perhaps few of us here do) that it is NOT simply a crapshoot, that his team is likely to have to beat both the Braves and Phillies to win it all, and that they have a much better chance to do so with Beltran's bat in the Giants' line-up rather than in one of the opponents'. Flags fly forever, and back-to-back championships are rare enough to really go for.

If I'm me? I don't give up a Top 50 prospect for a rental. But that's me.
   18. Kyle S at work Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:08 PM (#3886883)
Also, i can see why the Mets took Wheeler over Minor. I would do the same things in their place.
   19. Nasty Nate Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:09 PM (#3886885)
The Mets had plenty of leverage.
   20. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:12 PM (#3886890)
Just want to see him put 150 innings on that arm before going nuts.


Dallas Green can take care of that for you, if you give him a week or so.
   21. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:13 PM (#3886892)

If the Mutts get Zack Wheeler for 2 months of Beltran, IMO, that's a effin' A trade. Probably 80% chance Wheeler doesn't reach his ceiling, but his ceiling is very high.


I posted this in the other thread, but it seems like the Mets got more for Beltran than the Royals did seven years ago.
   22. Sam M. Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:14 PM (#3886894)
According to the NY Post, Beltran "invited Mets teammates and staffers to a going-away party in Cincinnati on Tuesday night after the team’s 8-6 win over the Reds." I guess it's been pretty much in place for at least the past couple of days, huh?

Classy move by Carlos. I am very glad I went to the game in Cincinnati Monday night -- the next-to-last game in which Wright, Reyes and Beltran all played together. That is certainly the best core of players (non-pitchers, anyway) the Mets have ever had together for such a significant period. Their success has been undermined by injuries and by the inability of the FO to put together the complementary pieces for the team to be as great as they deserved, but they are still a hell of a core. I just hope Wright and Reyes have the future together as Mets that should have been the past with Beltran.
   23. Davo Dozier Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:18 PM (#3886899)
I'd never heard the name Zach Wheeler before today, but if any team can afford gamble by trading a pitching prospect right now, it's the Giants.
   24. Elvis Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:18 PM (#3886900)
There's a lot to like about Wheeler and he's more than I originally thought they would be able to get for a rental.

But I think we should take a step back and recognize that he's got a 4.81 BB/9 in the California League. J.A. Happ has a 4.81 BB/9 in the majors this year (the worst rate among qualified pitchers) and he has a 6.12 ERA...
   25. Mefisto Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:33 PM (#3886918)
I'm not at all a fan of Sabean, and it always frustrates me when the team trades a top prospect for a rental. That said, the Giants have a terrific record when it comes to betting on young pitchers over the last 5 years or so (at least since the disaster of the Nathan/Liriano deal [I refuse to mention the devil they received in return]). And Beltran certainly is a player they can use.

Didn't see any mention of this, but who will the Giants release/send down to make room for Beltran?
   26. spike Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:33 PM (#3886919)
Also, i can see why the Mets took Wheeler over Minor. I would do the same things in their place.

Why are you so sure Minor was ever offered? Every report I've read is that the Braves have made the Minor/Teheran/Delgado/Vizcaino quartet off limits so far.
   27. Zeba Zeba Eata Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:33 PM (#3886920)
As a Met fan, I'm sad to see him go, happy that he didn't go to the Braves or Phillies, and excited that we seem to have gotten a reasonable return.
   28. AJMcCringleberry Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:40 PM (#3886926)
I already miss Beltran. But Wheeler sounds pretty good.
   29. Into the Void Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:41 PM (#3886929)
Didn't see any mention of this, but who will the Giants release/send down to make room for Beltran?


Maybe they will release Bill Hall (can you release a player when he is on the DL)? Either Hall or Burriss seems the most redundant since they have Keppinger. Hopefully it's not Belt...
   30. Steve Treder Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:54 PM (#3886940)
If I were Sabean, my answer would be, "This is for the games after we dispose of the Diamondbacks." The goal isn't to win the NL West. The goal is to repeat as world champions, and Sabean might simply believe (as perhaps few of us here do) that it is NOT simply a crapshoot, that his team is likely to have to beat both the Braves and Phillies to win it all, and that they have a much better chance to do so with Beltran's bat in the Giants' line-up rather than in one of the opponents'. Flags fly forever, and back-to-back championships are rare enough to really go for.

That nails it. Acquiring Beltran is all about improving the team's chances in the post-season.

As a Giants' fan, I'm very pleased with this deal.
   31. Kyle S at work Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:57 PM (#3886943)
spike: you're right, I should have clarified that comment by saying if they were offered both, I would have taken Wheeler too. If I were the Braves, I would not have offered Minor for a two month rental of a merely incremental upgrade. If I were the Giants, same story... oh well.

As for Wheeler and his walk rate, he supposedly has an electric arm. Clayton Kershaw walked a lot of people in the minors when he was 19. As Keith Law says, improving command is all about learning to repeat your delivery. You can teach that, but you largely can't teach a 95+ MPH fastball. I don't think Wheeler is as good a prospect as Kershaw was a few years back, but he's a very impressive young arm. I'm actually surprised he's as old as he is already, considering he was a high school pick; i guess he was 19 when he graduated.
   32. billyshears Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:59 PM (#3886946)
If the Mets end up getting Wheeler, I think that will be a great trade. Wheeler was the guy I was hoping the Mets would get all along. He's a high ceiling arm that has a chance to be a frontline starter. While there is risk associated with Wheeler, the Mets are in dire need of prospects in their system who can be difference makers, and Wheeler has that kind of ability. Those players are rare. I don't think any of the other prospects in play met that criteria. Add Wheeler to Matt Harvey, and the Mets now have 2 power arms who could front a rotation (it's a shame Meija got hurt, or they would have a real nice group of pitching prospects with ace potential). The Mets still have a lot of work to do (if there's an above average major league hitter in their system, I have no idea who it is), but at least you can start to envision a pitching staff with Wheeler, Harvey and Niese that has a chance to be pretty good.
   33. Elvis Posted: July 27, 2011 at 09:09 PM (#3886952)
pretty cool item from MetsBlog - just the pitches from a Wheeler start

http://www.metsblog.com/2011/07/27/video-zack-wheeler-condensed-start/

FWIW - Kershaw's minor league walk rate was 3.82 BB/9
   34. Banta Posted: July 27, 2011 at 09:17 PM (#3886957)
I just wish the Mets could have gotten a hitter. You gotta take the best player, but I refuse to get that excited over a pitching prospect.

I know they made the right move, I guess in the end I wasn't ready to Beltran to go yet. Farewell Piss Tits. I hope SF appreciates you more than NY did.
   35. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 27, 2011 at 09:32 PM (#3886970)
I just wish the Mets could have gotten a hitter. You gotta take the best player, but I refuse to get that excited over a pitching prospect.


Which is why you want a lot of pitching prospects. It increases your odds that one of them will develop.
   36. The Artist Posted: July 27, 2011 at 09:35 PM (#3886973)
30. Steve Treder Posted: July 27, 2011 at 04:54 PM (#3886940)
If I were Sabean, my answer would be, "This is for the games after we dispose of the Diamondbacks." The goal isn't to win the NL West. The goal is to repeat as world champions, and Sabean might simply believe (as perhaps few of us here do) that it is NOT simply a crapshoot, that his team is likely to have to beat both the Braves and Phillies to win it all, and that they have a much better chance to do so with Beltran's bat in the Giants' line-up rather than in one of the opponents'. Flags fly forever, and back-to-back championships are rare enough to really go for.

That nails it. Acquiring Beltran is all about improving the team's chances in the post-season.

As a Giants' fan, I'm very pleased with this deal.


I disagree - the question isn't even getting Beltran - the question is the price they paid. Is there any evidence to suggest the Braves were going to come close (especially when they would not deal their top 4 arms - Minor, Julio, Vizcaino, or Delgado)? Sabean had leverage, and did not use it. Again, Beltran makes this team better - what is not clear is whether he's the type of marginal improvement (ie, Reyes) that would make it worth it, especially since the Mets had to deal him in the next 4 days or get nothing.
   37. Benji Posted: July 27, 2011 at 09:38 PM (#3886975)
Very depressing to know what's coming. A team that was busting its balls to win, against all odds, sees it's front office just dumping and dumping money, benefiting only their bottom line. Bye Jose. Please don't become a Phillie or Yankee. The only consolation is they didn't get stuck with Domonic Brown.
   38. villageidiom Posted: July 27, 2011 at 09:41 PM (#3886978)
Maybe they will release Bill Hall (can you release a player when he is on the DL)?
I believe they can, but they're probably better off just moving him to the 60-day DL.
   39. depletion Posted: July 27, 2011 at 09:41 PM (#3886979)
Where are your legs that used to run, hurroo, hurroo
Where are your legs that used to run, hurroo, hurroo
Where are your legs that used to run
When you went to carry a gun
Indeed your dancing days are done
Oh Carlos, we hardly knew ye.
   40. PreservedFish Posted: July 27, 2011 at 09:41 PM (#3886980)
Dammit Benji, you need to knock off this poisonous pessimism of yours.
   41. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 27, 2011 at 09:42 PM (#3886981)
I disagree - the question isn't even getting Beltran - the question is the price they paid. Is there any evidence to suggest the Braves were going to come close (especially when they would not deal their top 4 arms - Minor, Julio, Vizcaino, or Delgado)? Sabean had leverage, and did not use it. Again, Beltran makes this team better - what is not clear is whether he's the type of marginal improvement (ie, Reyes) that would make it worth it, especially since the Mets had to deal him in the next 4 days or get nothing


The question (from the Giants POV). If they refused the Mets price, then the Mets might have been forced to lower their demands. By lowering their demands, would that make it more likely that the Phillies or Braves get Beltran? Since the teams the Giants have to defeat are also in the hunt for the same player, this becomes somewhat of a game theory situation. You want to minimize your cost, while improving your team and stopping your opponents from improving theirs.
   42. Steve Treder Posted: July 27, 2011 at 09:46 PM (#3886987)
The question (from the Giants POV). If they refused the Mets price, then the Mets might have been forced to lower their demands. By lowering their demands, would that make it more likely that the Phillies or Braves get Beltran? Since the teams the Giants have to defeat are also in the hunt for the same player, this becomes somewhat of a game theory situation. You want to minimize your cost, while improving your team and stopping your opponents from improving theirs.

Yes, there are both defensive and offensive issues involved. Given the inherent unreliability of pitching prospects, if indeed the price was apparently just Wheeler plus some possible cash, I think it's a fair price and a good deal.
   43. billyshears Posted: July 27, 2011 at 09:47 PM (#3886988)
I disagree - the question isn't even getting Beltran - the question is the price they paid. Is there any evidence to suggest the Braves were going to come close (especially when they would not deal their top 4 arms - Minor, Julio, Vizcaino, or Delgado)? Sabean had leverage, and did not use it. Again, Beltran makes this team better - what is not clear is whether he's the type of marginal improvement (ie, Reyes) that would make it worth it, especially since the Mets had to deal him in the next 4 days or get nothing.


I think the issue was that the Mets were strongly inclined to take the deal with the best single prospect in it. Maybe Atlanta doesn't put Teheran, Vizcaino, Delgado or Minor in the deal (and I don't get the fuss about Minor), but my understanding is that they could put a secondary prospect package together that would be better than the Giants. Same with the Rangers and possibly the Phillies. The Giants were in a position where if they didn't put Wheeler in the deal (my uninformed guess is that the Mets were never too high on Brown), Beltran would be traded somewhere else. That was all the leverage the Mets needed over the Giants. Time wasn't on the Giants side because the Mets had other offers on the table.
   44. zack Posted: July 27, 2011 at 09:49 PM (#3886992)
Very depressing to know what's coming. A team that was busting its balls to win, against all odds, sees it's front office just dumping and dumping money, benefiting only their bottom line. Bye Jose. Please don't become a Phillie or Yankee. The only consolation is they didn't get stuck with Domonic Brown.


All indications are that the Mets will be picking up most of Beltran's tab, to make sure they get a good prospect in return. You might have missed that news in your sad-hole, though.

I also don't think they'll move Reyes, though who knows. It's not about the money, though.
   45. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 27, 2011 at 09:53 PM (#3886995)
Very depressing to know what's coming. A team that was busting its balls to win, against all odds, sees it's front office just dumping and dumping money, benefiting only their bottom line. Bye Jose. Please don't become a Phillie or Yankee. The only consolation is they didn't get stuck with Domonic Brown.


The Mets are 7.5 games out of the wild card (and double that to the division lead) with 4 teams ahead of them. The Mets are playing mediocre baseball (6-6 since the All-Star break). Nothing the Mets have done this year should make anyone believe that they will be able to make the playoffs this year. Beltran was gone after this year, so the Mets made the (very rational) decision to get the best deal they could for him (remembering that they could not offer him arbitration to get compensation picks).
   46. depletion Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:01 PM (#3887007)
The Giants were in a position where if they didn't put Wheeler in the deal (my uninformed guess is that the Mets were never too high on Brown), Beltran would be traded somewhere else. That was all the leverage the Mets needed over the Giants. Time wasn't on the Giants side because the Mets had other offers on the table.

Or the Mets would decide not to trade him if no suitable offer was made. I'm not positing that that was almost the case, but a team must hold out the possibility of making no trade if the offers are not good.
   47. Benji Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:03 PM (#3887009)
It's not about the money??????? You give away your closer and #3 hitter for three guys who may never play a major league game and it's not about money? What is it about then?
   48. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:07 PM (#3887012)
I don't think the Mets had to trade him, like everyone is saying. They are still sort of in the race. Wheeler seems like more than enough to make the trade worth making, but the Mets did have some leverage here.

I'll miss Carlos, would've preferred he went to the Red Sox, but I'm glad he's not staying in the NL East. Sam's hypothetical has no chance of happening, but I'd love it if they somehow brought him back next year. I wanted them to trade Reyes and go after him this offseason too. That actually seemed more reasonable to me, given that all the Mets fans love Reyes and hate Beltran.
   49. billyshears Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:08 PM (#3887014)
Or the Mets would decide not to trade him if no suitable offer was made. I'm not positing that that was almost the case, but a team must hold out the possibility of making no trade if the offers are not good.


Agreed. My guess is that if all the teams held the line on their top prospects : (a) the offers still would have been good enough for the Mets to do the deal and (b) Beltran wouldn't have been traded to the Giants.
   50. spike Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:13 PM (#3887018)
I don't get the fuss about Minor

MLB ready lefty starters with a mid rotation talent ceiling are pretty valuable. He may never be filet mignon, but he will never be chopped liver either.
   51. Sam M. Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:14 PM (#3887021)
It's not about the money???????

The Mets are picking up most of the remaining money on Beltran's salary. Basically, they spent $4M to buy one of the top 40 prospects in the minor leagues. Isn't that we want, Benji? The Mets to be willing to spend money to improve? If they had insisted on the team acquiring Beltran picking up the whole tab, they would have gotten a C prospect or two. The willingness to spend here got them a guy who is at least as good as any prospect in their system -- Wheeler is basically another Matt Harvey. The Mets weren't going to win this year with Beltran, hard as that is to accept. They significantly improved their farm system today. By NOT making money the priority.

You give away your closer and #3 hitter for three guys who may never play a major league game and it's not about money? What is it about then?


As far as K-Rod is concerned, that trade was about the money -- but you know what? It is 100% justified and smart not to want to spend $17.5M on a pitcher like K-Rod in 2012. If you disagree, then fine -- but not every decision to avoid spending money is evidence the Mets are cheap and/or stupid. I have almost as many problems with the Mets owners and the situation they've put the franchise in as you do, but it would have been felonious mismanagement to let that option vest. If that's an example of it being "about the money," here's to money-based decision-making.
   52. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:23 PM (#3887027)
The Mets are picking up most of the remaining money on Beltran's salary. Basically, they spent $4M to buy one of the top 40 prospects in the minor leagues.


This. Wheeler signed in 2009 for $3.3M. The Mets got him for $4M plus two months of Beltran.
   53. Tom (and his broom) Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:24 PM (#3887029)
I don't understand the point of the question in #1. Is Beltran capable of playing left field? Of course he is, he's one of the most fluid and natural defenders of his generation. Is he going to switch positions to accommodate Nate ####### Schierholtz? Hell no. Beltran leads your team in Runs, Hits, Doubles, Triples, Homeruns, RBI, walks, OBP, SLG and WAR. And salary. And fame. He's your best player. Nate Schierholtz can move to left.


Excuse me? WTF does his hitting ability have to do with whether he plays left or right? On this team he will be the starting LF, there isn't even a discussion. This isn't in the F'n Mets, this is a team where Beltran will be at best the 4th best defensive OF'er on the roster.

Schierholtz provides gold glove quality defense in right, if he is on the field he plays right.
   54. BWV 1129 Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:33 PM (#3887039)
FWIW - Kershaw's minor league walk rate was 3.82 BB/9

Which is substantially better than Wheeler's walk rate.

It seems to me a good trade for both sides, if it's just these two. The Giants want to win now and have tons of pitching, Wheeler's far away and is far from polished, and the Mets get a nice payout in an intriguing prospect. Trading at its best. Hooray for everybody.
   55. Walt Davis Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:37 PM (#3887044)
To the extent there's a "problem" here for the Giants, it's that it fails to address their main problems in SS and C (where Whiteside has been fine so far). Obviously Beltran is an upgrade over their other OF pieces and I suppose it gives them even more flexibility at 1B (I see Belt is back too). But Huff, Belt, Beltran, Burrell, Ross, Torres, Schierholz (and Rowand) is a lot of guys for 4 spots when you stink at 1-2 spots. Some decent DH options if they make the WS though.
   56. Sam M. Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:40 PM (#3887046)
FWIW - Kershaw's minor league walk rate was 3.82 BB/9

Welllllll . . . that includes what he did when he was older than Wheeler, when he figured everything out in 2008 and dramatically lowered his walk rate at Jacksonville (AA). In 2007, when he was the same age and pitching at the same level where Wheeler is now (before being promoted to AA for a few innings late in the year), Kershaw was pretty comparably wild: 4.9 BB/9 that season overall, 4.6 in A ball. The Mets obviously will be thrilled if Wheeler finds his command at age 20 the way Kershaw did.
   57. thetailor Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:40 PM (#3887047)
I am very confused as to why Wheeler is so highly regarded. Can someone with more knowledge of the Giants system and Wheeler in particular explain it to me?

He was ranked #55 by BA in the preseason, he was an early first round draft pick, and Keith Law had him ranked I believe #33 mid-season this year. So I understand people like him. But why? (also, someone condensed a lot of the BA comments on Wheeler here: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638055)

He doesn't seem to be one of those guys who kills it with "stuff" ... looks like the FB is 91-94. I've read that he's a pretty smart pitcher already, so that doesn't portend well for his ability to improve as he goes up the ladder (Amazin Avenue has a blurb about him already). Most importantly, he's struggling so far in High-A. That 4.81 BB/9 is actually getting worse ... he's walked 34 batters in his last 56 innings. So if he's not a stuff OR a finesse guy -- what is he?
   58. PreservedFish Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:41 PM (#3887048)
Carlos Beltran expected to start in right field, bat third for Giants on Thursday...


I’m told Beltran will hit third and Pablo Sandoval will bat cleanup. Expect Nate Schierholtz to go to left field, where he’d get the bulk of platoon at-bats with Cody Ross.



Mercury News
   59. spike Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:45 PM (#3887052)
Walt, that sums up the Braves position nicely as well (changing C to CF)
   60. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:45 PM (#3887053)

Schierholtz provides gold glove quality defense in right, if he is on the field he plays right.


Not according to Fangraphs UZR. Schierholtz has a -1.0 (-1.8/150) while Beltran has 0.0 (-0.3/150).
   61. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:46 PM (#3887054)
Double post
   62. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:46 PM (#3887056)
Triple Post
   63. PreservedFish Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:47 PM (#3887057)
Nate Schierholtz, who has never played left field in his major league career, will be moved to left field to make space in right field for new acquisition Carlos Beltran, Schierholtz told CSNBayArea.com Wednesday.


link
   64. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:49 PM (#3887059)
Damn server.
   65. Tom (and his broom) Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:51 PM (#3887061)
Thats nice preserved fish, but also wrong. Beltran will be batting 4th and playing LF.
   66. AJMcCringleberry Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:54 PM (#3887062)
Someone broke Mark S.
   67. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: July 27, 2011 at 10:55 PM (#3887063)
[56] I'm confused. Bb-ref lists Wheeler's birthday as May 30, 1990. That means that he's already 21. When Kershaw was his age, he was already in the majors.
   68. Elvis Posted: July 27, 2011 at 11:01 PM (#3887070)
I'm not sure we can say that Kershaw figured it out, though. His first exposure to pro ball he had a 1.22 BB/9. This is a small sample size, but all of his minor league work added together adds up to just over 200 IP, so I think it's best to look at it all together.

Meanwhile, Wheeler has allowed 85 BB in 138.2 IP. He's made improvements in his walks this year, but he still has a long way to go.
   69. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 27, 2011 at 11:01 PM (#3887071)
Someone broke Mark S.


When the server hiccups, it cause my work firewall to resend. It's very annoying.


He doesn't seem to be one of those guys who kills it with "stuff" ... looks like the FB is 91-94. I've read that he's a pretty smart pitcher already, so that doesn't portend well for his ability to improve as he goes up the ladder (Amazin Avenue has a blurb about him already). Most importantly, he's struggling so far in High-A. That 4.81 BB/9 is actually getting worse ... he's walked 34 batters in his last 56 innings. So if he's not a stuff OR a finesse guy -- what is he?


He's definitely a stuff guy, but he's still raw. From Keith Law's mid-season report:

"There's some thought he could end up in the 'pen because the fastball command isn't there, but he barely pitched last year, and the lack of repetitions may be a reason. It's No. 1 or 2 starter stuff."
   70. Sam M. Posted: July 27, 2011 at 11:01 PM (#3887072)
Bb-ref lists Wheeler's birthday as May 30, 1990. That means that he's already 21. When Kershaw was his age, he was already in the majors.


Yup. You're right. I thought I'd read he's 19, but either I read that wrong, or the article was wrong. Either way, he's 21. My bad. He's at the same level of experience Kershaw had in dealing with the control issues, but not the age.

EDIT:

I'm not sure we can say that Kershaw figured it out, though. His first exposure to pro ball he had a 1.22 BB/9. This is a small sample size, but all of his minor league work added together adds up to just over 200 IP, so I think it's best to look at it all together.

I don't see it that way. That 1.22 BB/9 you cite was in a really small sample size, 37 IP, in the rookie league, where I would argue that he could just throw a bunch of fastballs against overmatched hitters. IMHO, you have to just throw that out completely. It's his first full, A-ball season that is really comparable to Wheeler -- and where he had the control issues that are similar. The second season was just completely different.

Now, there's no guarantee (or even likelihood, frankly) that Wheeler will have the same sort of "Aha!" breakthrough with his command. All I'd say Kershaw shows is that this sort of dramatic improvement is achievable for a pitcher, and that it's possible to read too much into first-season control issues for a young pitcher with a lot of stuff.
   71. Banta Posted: July 27, 2011 at 11:05 PM (#3887078)
A team that wasn't supposed to contend but was within sniffing distance of the playoffs? For anyone who wants to complain about this deal needs to remember the last time the Mets were in a similar position and thank the gods that it's them who are getting a top pitching prospect in return this time.
   72. Tom (and his broom) Posted: July 27, 2011 at 11:08 PM (#3887079)
Mark S.

Sample size...

over his career Schierholtz has a UZR/150 in RF (the only place he has played in the majors) of 12.8

Beltran is at -0.3
   73. Banta Posted: July 27, 2011 at 11:08 PM (#3887080)
Benji does have a point in that if the Mets were in the financial situation they SHOULD be, trading Beltran wouldn't have been the talk of the last few weeks. It would have been talking about signing him to a reasonable extension.
   74. Walt Davis Posted: July 27, 2011 at 11:39 PM (#3887114)
what is he?

young.

Seriously, he's striking out more than 10/9 in the minors. Even with the terrible walk rate, this year his K/BB is a smidgen over 2. He's given up less than 8 hits per 9 and less than 1 HR per 9. If he was doing all that while walking only 3/9 he'd already be up in the majors.

People are excited not because he's a sure thing, lights out prospect but because getting somebody this good for 2 months of Beltran is pretty good return.
   75. thetailor Posted: July 27, 2011 at 11:40 PM (#3887115)
From Project Prospect:

Wheeler's 72-78 MPH curveball has elite, two-plane break and is a no-doubt swing-and-miss offering. The gif to the right is of him buckling Jose Altuve on an 0-1 count. He went on to strike Altuve out with another curveball -- this time in the dirt -- the very next pitch.

(link)

In these clips he looks good, but I'd feel better if he threw harder or was getting better results in High-A.
   76. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 27, 2011 at 11:40 PM (#3887117)
As a Royals fan I find high comedy in a Mets fan crying about his team trading away a good play for money reasons. I have a tiny violin for you if you want to borrow it.
   77. PreservedFish Posted: July 28, 2011 at 12:18 AM (#3887159)
Benji does have a point in that if the Mets were in the financial situation they SHOULD be, trading Beltran wouldn't have been the talk of the last few weeks. It would have been talking about signing him to a reasonable extension.


Boras might be another reason why this was impossible.
   78. bumpis hound Posted: July 28, 2011 at 12:46 AM (#3887192)
Someone needs to check with Mat Latos, get his take on this trade.
   79. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: July 28, 2011 at 12:47 AM (#3887193)
It's not about the money??????? You give away your closer and #3 hitter for three guys who may never play a major league game and it's not about money? What is it about then?


Maybe I'm confusing you with Banta and billyshears, Benji, but aren't you usually not this big an idiot?
   80. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 28, 2011 at 12:52 AM (#3887204)
In these clips he looks good, but I'd feel better if he threw harder or was getting better results in High-A.


If he were throwing harder or getting better results, then the Mets wouldn't have gotten him for Beltran.
   81. Benji Posted: July 28, 2011 at 12:56 AM (#3887208)
I laughed at MLB's films of Wheeler. The angle they had made it look like he was pitching from 40 feet away. It reminded me of the 12 year old that decides to humiliate the littler kids in wiffle ball. So this deal is a fait accompli. We have to hope this kid is the real deal. But I can't apologize for fearing the worst. 49 years of rooting for this team robs you of any Pollyannaish optimism. But if the Wilpons are forced to sell....
   82. formerly dp Posted: July 28, 2011 at 01:06 AM (#3887224)
Benji, I don't think I'd be alone in saying if the deal was Brown straight up for Beltran, I'd be thrilled right now. Wheeler's a lot better than I thought they'd get going into the season, but Beltran's surge the last month, after a brief slump, helped some. Brown would have been a steal.

Wright is hitting HRs again...that's good to see.
   83. Shibal Posted: July 28, 2011 at 01:15 AM (#3887235)
A team that wasn't supposed to contend but was within sniffing distance of the playoffs? For anyone who wants to complain about this deal needs to remember the last time the Mets were in a similar position and thank the gods that it's them who are getting a top pitching prospect in return this time.


Better to have a bird in hand than two in the bush. Wheeler has a lot of developing to do.

By the way, I was going through that old thread and laughed when saw this:

Okay, the point with Huber is this: the Royals basically traded Jose Batista for Huber. That's an amazing steal. Can anyone give me a logical explanation as to why the Royals were in on the deal? The Pirates obviously would have done better had they kept KC out of it.
   84. Benji Posted: July 28, 2011 at 01:18 AM (#3887237)
And slightly off topic, what the hell is up with the Reds? I was intrigued by Brown too. A good all around CF always piques my interest. So what's the plan from here? Will Martinez come up? Will they move Capuano (I hope not)? Because 2012 is really muddled right now. I'm not expecting Reyes back, but if he does leadoff and SS are covered. Wright is safe, as is Davis. We're stuck with Bay but will they upgrade in CF and 2B? I like the catching platoon. SP and the bullpen are crapshoots. And obviously the manager is an asset.
   85. Sam M. Posted: July 28, 2011 at 01:19 AM (#3887240)
I am befuddled that anyone could read that scouting report (and much of the rest of the info out there on Wheeler) and not be thrilled that the Mets got a prospect like him for a rental. I love Carlos Beltran, and will miss him, but this was a trade a team in the Mets' position had to make. I literally cannot remember the last time a team trading away a player who is assured to be nothing but a rental got a prospect of Wheeler's quality. Throw in the fact that the Giants won't even be able to get draft picks if Beltran leaves? Are you kidding?

You can (and I do) lament that the Mets are in the position they're in. The Wilpons have mismanaged the franchise and their own finances to the point of farce. But that is different from opposing this trade, once you accept that you can't rewind the tape and change the position we're in. From this particular starting point, this trade is absolutely as good as you could hope for, and it was the right thing to do.
   86. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: July 28, 2011 at 01:22 AM (#3887243)
Before the season even started, there was a ton of talk about trading Beltran for a C prospect and getting rid of his salary. Instead, they held onto him, got 3 months of all-star production, and traded him for a top 50 prospect. Benji, we all wish the Wilpons were gone and that the salary constraints weren't what they are. But given the situation, I feel like Alderson handled Beltran as well as anyone could have hoped. That's all most of us are really looking for at this particular moment.

EDIT: Sam beat me to it, as usual.
   87. Benji Posted: July 28, 2011 at 01:29 AM (#3887257)
I don't like being a crank and maybe I should have waited a day to comment on this deal. I'm still reeling from my 49ers throwing another season away. I doubt even Jeff Wilpon would have brought Alex Smith back. And for 5 million dollars! And immediately they push Takeo Spikes out the door. 5 mil for a useless piece of #### and oo-gotz for a productive player that busted his hump for them.
   88. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 28, 2011 at 01:32 AM (#3887260)
Ollie P. walked 5 per 9 in 2002 and he figured it out, so there's that.
   89. CrosbyBird Posted: July 28, 2011 at 01:33 AM (#3887263)
Yeah, I also don't see how any Met fan can dislike this trade.

There were really only two options that were reasonable given Beltran's contract situation:

1) Trade him before the deadline.
2) Sign him to a (very) short extension.

I think it's highly unlikely that Beltran would have accepted #2 given his strong performance this season. The alternatives are all terrible: have Beltran leave at the end of the season and get nothing because they can't offer arbitration; trade Beltran and the whole contract and get crappy prospects; sign Beltran to a long-term deal.
   90. Bhaakon Posted: July 28, 2011 at 01:41 AM (#3887271)
To the extent there's a "problem" here for the Giants, it's that it fails to address their main problems in SS and C (where Whiteside has been fine so far). Obviously Beltran is an upgrade over their other OF pieces and I suppose it gives them even more flexibility at 1B (I see Belt is back too). But Huff, Belt, Beltran, Burrell, Ross, Torres, Schierholz (and Rowand) is a lot of guys for 4 spots when you stink at 1-2 spots. Some decent DH options if they make the WS though.


I don't really see that as a plus. Actually, I see the almost inevitable benching of Belt as a major downside to this deal. Bochy's history of player use suggests that Huff is going to continue getting the lion's share of the time at first base, even with his epic struggles at the plate. Belt's best hope for playing time was his ability to play an outfield corner, and now that avenue is closed.
   91. Sam M. Posted: July 28, 2011 at 02:00 AM (#3887292)
So bear with me. I know this isn't going to happen, but let's just say . . . the Braves just lost McCann, right? They didn't get Beltran, and their line-up doesn't scare anybody. They have pretty much lost touch with the Phillies, so maybe they start to drift a bit. The Mets have suddenly looked like world-beaters the last three nights in Cincinnati, and didn't look like they missed Carlos in Game 1 of the post-Beltran Era.

So let's just say (somehow) that the Mets rally for an improbable capture of the wild card. We know the Phillies are going to finish with the best record in the NL, but they can't play the wild card if it's the Mets. So whom would the Mets face in the NLDS???

Yes . . . Carlos Beltran, Tim Lincecum, and the San Francisco Giants.

Ain't baseball grand?
   92. The Ghost's Tryin' to Reason with Hurricane Season Posted: July 28, 2011 at 02:26 AM (#3887313)
Before today, I knew as much about Beltran's dog as I knew about Wheeler, but a 21-yo in High A is a long way from 1 MLB win, never mind 300. TNSTAAPP.
   93. Steve Treder Posted: July 28, 2011 at 02:43 AM (#3887325)
Yes . . . Carlos Beltran, Tim Lincecum, and the San Francisco Giants.

Ain't baseball grand?


:-)
   94. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: July 28, 2011 at 02:43 AM (#3887326)
TNSTAAPP.

I hate that saying so much.
   95. billyshears Posted: July 28, 2011 at 03:14 AM (#3887336)
Maybe I'm confusing you with Banta and billyshears, Benji, but aren't you usually not this big an idiot?


I'm not quite sure how I should take this.
   96. billyshears Posted: July 28, 2011 at 03:14 AM (#3887337)
Maybe I'm confusing you with Banta and billyshears, Benji, but aren't you usually not this big an idiot?


I'm not quite sure how I should take this.
   97. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 28, 2011 at 03:23 AM (#3887341)
From the ESPN Stats & Info blog:

Besides the boost Beltran will provide offensively -- his .904 OPS would be tops on the Giants –- his skills in right field will strengthen the team’s defense. Beltran has saved eight runs this season in right field, the fourth-most in the majors among right fielders.

Giants right fielders have cost the team 10 runs this season, which is last in the majors. It’s unclear how the Giants outfield will shake out in the Beltran deal, but his defense will be a boon in the cavernous AT&T Park.
   98. Banta Posted: July 28, 2011 at 03:26 AM (#3887343)
I'm not quite sure how I should take this.


I took it as a compliment and somewhat of a delusion, as I am in fact an idiot. Some might say, to borrow a phrase, the biggest idiot ever.

And now, after discussing my qualifications, I will put forth some opinions!

Beltran's defense has greatly improved over the course of the year, but I'm still not convinced he's covering a lot of ground out there. And his arm is not particularly special for a right fielder (plus for a center fielder, sure).

He certainly won't hurt a team out there, however.
   99. PreservedFish Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:00 AM (#3887351)
I literally cannot remember the last time a team trading away a player who is assured to be nothing but a rental got a prospect of Wheeler's quality.


This is an exaggeration. Matt LaPorta and Justin Smoak went in deadline deals in the last few years. Andy LaRoche. All were top 30 prospects. Must be some bigger ones in years past. Does the Bartolo Colon trade count (Brandon Phillips)?
   100. PreservedFish Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:07 AM (#3887356)
TNSTAAPP.


I hate that saying so much.


Me too. It's nonsense.
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