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Friday, April 05, 2013

Berg: Chipper Jones not done tweeting about Mike Rice

Roy White is definitely better than Mike Rice.

Which is all a convoluted way of saying that while Chipper Jones’ seemingly heated Twitter rant in defense of his own statements about fired Rutgers basketball coach Mike Rice does not make much sense to me, and in fact appears to contradict itself multiple times, I cannot say for sure that it objectively does not make much sense because Chipper Jones and I have entirely different sets of experiences impacting the way we feel feelings and tweet. Or something:

Chipper Jones  

I guess not everyone is as hyper-sensitive as some of you out there. Some of u can’t be called names or pushed out of frustration.

Chipper Jones  

If some of u thought my tweets were insensitive, I’m sorry u feel that way. I was brought up differently in the ways to be motivated.

...So, to recap as best we can: Chipper Jones thinks you have the right to your own definition of verbal and physical abuse and is sorry that you’re upset by his. If you don’t like being pushed or called names by a frustrated coach, you may be “hyper-sensitive.” Still, Mike Rice pushing and calling players names out of frustration was wrong, but whether or not he was fired should be up to Rutgers and not ESPN.

Bottom line, Chipper Jones was “brought up differently in the ways to be motivated,” thus your perspective and his perspective on Mike Rice might not necessarily jive and you’re in no way obligated to follow him on Twitter. I will continue to do so, though, because it’s super entertaining.

Repoz Posted: April 05, 2013 at 08:17 AM | 131 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: braves

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   101. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 06, 2013 at 09:09 AM (#4406062)
   102. Bruce Markusen Posted: April 06, 2013 at 09:20 AM (#4406065)
So is Chipper Jones saying that what Rice did was "not that bad?" If he is, that's laughable. I could just imagine Jones' reaction if Bobby Cox started firing baseballs, or gloves, or helmets at his players during spring training and in-season workouts. Jones and the other Braves would have been complaining to the Players' Association forthwith.

But since it's just "college boys," the Rutgers players are supposed to accept it?
   103. Suff Posted: April 06, 2013 at 06:01 PM (#4406275)
I can actually see where Chipper is coming from, somewhat. If I were a player for Rice, I wouldn't have thought it strange to be grabbed and put into position (especially) or to be screamed at and called names (though I never got it as bad as Rice gave it--the f-bomb was rarely/never used), based on other experiences when I played sports. I guess the stuff that really stood out to me was pegging his players with basketballs and the severity of the profanity he used. I'm twice as old as these guys now, roughly, so times have changed, particularly demeaning people as "fairies" or other implications that your lack of aggressiveness belied a same-sex orientation used to be common-place and are appropriately seen as abusive now.

So maybe Chipper is just fixating some things that are "not that bad" (grabbing and yelling) and really overlooking the worst of what really made Rice's behavior completely over the top.
   104. Bruce Markusen Posted: April 06, 2013 at 06:52 PM (#4406290)
Any coach in 2013 who relies on yelling gay slurs and tossing equipment at players is out of touch with current day realities. That stuff hasn't flown for the last decade, and with good reason. I can understand general yelling (without the slurs) and grabbing a player, but Rice went so far beyond that line that Jones or any reasonable person should be able to see the difference.

And it's not like Rice's methods were working; his record at Rutgers has been less than mediocre.

I will give him credit for his apology, though. There was none of this "I'm sorry if anyone was offended" nonsense, and he seemed to sincerely regret his actions. I wonder if he shocked himself by how bad he looked on tape.
   105. PerroX Posted: April 06, 2013 at 06:58 PM (#4406293)
1988: In an NBC interview with Connie Chung, says, "I think that if rape is
inevitable, relax and enjoy it."


Her question was how he dealt with stress on the job. I still quote that one from time to time.
   106. PerroX Posted: April 06, 2013 at 07:05 PM (#4406295)
I think there were clear standards of behavior that Rice violated and provided just cause for his termination. But the moral outrage is as over-the-top as Rice's antics. The athletes in question are adults who willingly signed up for Rice's program of intimidation -- I haven't read closely, but it appears that not only did no one complain, they supported the coach's actions.

I suppose Al McGuire was history's second greatest monster, behind The General.
   107. PerroX Posted: April 06, 2013 at 07:09 PM (#4406298)
Is this 'hate Larry Wayne' week at bbtf? He's your prototypical jock and plays the part appropriately. Perhaps we should re-evaluate our vicarious enjoyment of athletics, because both Mike Rice and Chipper Jones are hardly exceptional in their attitudes and actions within their chosen professions.
   108. GotowarMissAgnes Posted: April 06, 2013 at 07:11 PM (#4406300)
I think there were clear standards of behavior that Rice violated and provided just cause for his termination. But the moral outrage is as over-the-top as Rice's antics. The athletes in question are adults who willingly signed up for Rice's antics dependent on a scholarship that Rice controls-- I haven't read closely, but it appears that not only did no one complain, they supported the coach's actions.

I suppose Al McGuire was history's second greatest monster, behind The General.


Fixed that.
   109. PerroX Posted: April 06, 2013 at 07:29 PM (#4406312)
I'm dependent on a job my boss controls, too. Still, he'd get the axe if he behaved like Rice. But, again, I'd point out that Rice, his boss, and the students were all jocks, not the most civilized members of the human tribe.
   110. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 06, 2013 at 09:31 PM (#4406378)
bruce

the tapes were made last November. rice saw the tapes months ago. by all accounts he didn't change his behavior one iota

   111. GotowarMissAgnes Posted: April 06, 2013 at 09:32 PM (#4406379)
People who are in dependent situations are willing to tolerate lots of intolerable situations--especially if they've been conditioned for a long time to see such abusive behavior as normal. Sometimes, they even support it and identify with those who abuse them. This "job" of scholarship basketball athlete is one of only a few thousand in the country, quite a bit different even from someone who can find employment in thousands of thousands of companies.

The fact that the abused tolerates it doesn't make the behavior any less intolerable or unacceptable. Does mean moral outrage by others is often needed to end it and end the conditioning that leads to its continuation.
   112. Bruce Markusen Posted: April 06, 2013 at 10:28 PM (#4406436)
If I had a son and he was on the receiving end of having Rice fire a basketball in the direction of his groin, you can be damn sure that I'd be expressing more than "moral outrage."

For crying out loud, I hope that someone would express "outrage" toward Rice's behavior. I never knew basketball had to involve hand-to-hand combat. Rice is supposed to be a coach, not a savage.

As for McGuire, who coached Marquette 40 years ago, that is irrelevant to what goes on in 2013.
   113. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: April 06, 2013 at 10:44 PM (#4406450)
People who are in dependent situations are willing to tolerate lots of intolerable situations--especially if they've been conditioned for a long time to see such abusive behavior as normal

yes--the "Rutgers Syndrome"
   114. PerroX Posted: April 06, 2013 at 10:56 PM (#4406455)
"Rutgers men's basketball player" is one of the more privileged, least dependent positions in life. You can't save the world.
   115. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: April 06, 2013 at 11:03 PM (#4406464)
Looks like someone's let the inmates out of the Lounge again ...
   116. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 06, 2013 at 11:41 PM (#4406490)
To believe that this individual was not physically assaulting student athletes--and others--on a regular basis requires an amazing and willful capacity to ignore what is staring you in the face. He has a long, long, long history of physical violence.


I enjoy a good brawl as much as the next man (well, probably more than the next man), but a teacher or coach like Knight in a position of authority vis a vis students who hits or otherwise abuses those students is a punk and a coward, and deserves a serious asskicking for getting physical with kids who are automatically at several disadvantages.

It's sickening that while teaching and coaching often draw people who genuinely care about young people, they also draw some sickos who thrive on the power imbalance and the opportunities through that to mete out abuse. It's no secret Knight was that particular kind of filth.

   117. PerroX Posted: April 07, 2013 at 12:28 AM (#4406501)
Looks like someone's let the inmates out of the Lounge again ...


The Punishment Begins
   118. PerroX Posted: April 07, 2013 at 12:30 AM (#4406502)
The more successful you are, the more you can get away with. Especially in college athletics.
   119. spike Posted: April 08, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4407695)
Tim Pernetti got a 1.2M (3 years pay) severance plus car allowance and health care. I can't decide if it's because he was successful or because he couldn't get away with much.
   120. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 08, 2013 at 03:32 PM (#4407699)
Tim Pernetti got a 1.2M (3 years pay) severance plus car allowance and health care. I can't decide if it's because he was successful or because he couldn't get away with much.

And an Ipad. AN IPAD!
   121. WillYoung Posted: April 08, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4407811)
Can someone tie this back to the first couple of comments and explain how Phil Martelli is involved? I would love to see that ###### ruined.
   122. GotowarMissAgnes Posted: April 08, 2013 at 08:22 PM (#4408013)
Martelli's son was Rice's assistant. He was also on the videotaped and was fired.
   123. bigglou115 Posted: April 08, 2013 at 10:09 PM (#4408078)
Is this 'hate Larry Wayne' week at bbtf? He's your prototypical jock and plays the part appropriately. Perhaps we should re-evaluate our vicarious enjoyment of athletics, because both Mike Rice and Chipper Jones are hardly exceptional in their attitudes and actions within their chosen professions


That was my thought as well. I'd imagine any number of 40 year old athletes would feel the same way, because they probably got their butts kicked in practice on a regular basis. One of the first things Chipper tweeted about this was that he remembered being drug across the dirt by his face mask in high school football practice. I'd imagine that Chipper probably just sees this kind of coaching behavior as a part of sports, and the kind of thing that comes with the territory if you want to be a high level athlete. As to the "if Bobby Cox threw baseballs at him..." thing, keep in mind that we're only a generation removed from the Major League franchise, where a fictional coach was the icon of old school grittiness for making his 3rd baseman take grounder after grounder until he was covered in bruises. This isn't so much a matter of, "it isn't happening to me so here's my opinion," as it is a matter of "I went through the same stuff, made me a HOFer. These kids should be thankful they have a coach who wants to make them better."

The only reason Chipper gets any press for this is he's become a minor twitter celebrity, and certainly one of the most entertaining baseball twitterers around.
   124. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 09, 2013 at 12:17 AM (#4408154)
This isn't so much a matter of, "it isn't happening to me so here's my opinion," as it is a matter of "I went through the same stuff, made me a HOFer. These kids should be thankful they have a coach who wants to make them better."


Which doesn't mean it's not a ridiculous opinion to hold.

There are little things called reason and empathy that ideally keeps us from thinking that sort of silliness is necessary.
   125. Squash Posted: April 09, 2013 at 02:25 AM (#4408178)
I think most of the time the proverbial 40 year old athlete is thinking of the one or two times a coach was crappy to him and misremembering it into his entire athletic experience. You haven't really been able to beat on your athletes outside the realm of an actual sport activity for quite a while now - up until very recently (and mostly still today) you could make them do bullring drills until they couldn't see straight, or make them run miles in the heat without water, but you haven't been able to throw things at them, shove them/hit them repeatedly to the degree this guy was doing it, etc., outside the context of the sport for quite a while now. Chipper was drafted as an 18 year old in 1990. They weren't taking the strap to him at the private college preparatory school he went to when he was tardy or didn't turn in his homework on time.
   126. PerroX Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:25 AM (#4408254)
Which doesn't mean it's not a ridiculous opinion to hold.

There are little things called reason and empathy that ideally keeps us from thinking that sort of silliness is necessary.


If before the extortion attempt and media brouhaha Rutgers found Rice's behavior unacceptable -- and that is the published word of the investigator they hired -- that's they're prerogative.

The problem with the statement above is the word "ideally", which is where these lectures on reason and empathy always begin, off in the ether. A thousand and one internet pundits with no qualification or experience to make a judgement want to tell the whole world how it should behave and hold it to their own sense of morality across situation and circumstance. We give the religious a hard time at bbtf for the same moral and philosophical position while holding a similar anachronistic foundation for our own more fashionable beliefs. It's a head-swelling power trip is what it is.

Now get off of my lawn.
   127. JL Posted: April 09, 2013 at 10:54 AM (#4408345)
I'm dependent on a job my boss controls, too. Still, he'd get the axe if he behaved like Rice. But, again, I'd point out that Rice, his boss, and the students were all jocks, not the most civilized members of the human tribe.


The initial reaction and suspension certainly could explain why none of the players said anything. They complain, the coach gets a suspension, then they have to play for him again (assume their scholarship is re-upped). Pretty sure that is going to cut down on the complaints.
   128. PerroX Posted: April 09, 2013 at 11:09 AM (#4408364)
The initial reaction and suspension certainly could explain why none of the players said anything. They complain, the coach gets a suspension, then they have to play for him again (assume their scholarship is re-upped). Pretty sure that is going to cut down on the complaints.


They could transfer. A few years back Matt Doherty pretty much got the axe at UNC because of a player mutiny, though that was possible because he had alienated everyone else around him as well.... I am content to let these things play out as they will, and obviously don't buy into the argument that the players were next to indentured servants. Maybe it's not fair that college players don't get paid while those above them roll in the dough, but they are a privileged lot and have been since they started playing prep ball, even earlier now. I pretty much agree with Larry, you put up with some #### to get to a better place down the road.
   129. JL Posted: April 09, 2013 at 04:42 PM (#4408729)
They could transfer. A few years back Matt Doherty pretty much got the axe at UNC because of a player mutiny, though that was possible because he had alienated everyone else around him as well.... I am content to let these things play out as they will, and obviously don't buy into the argument that the players were next to indentured servants. Maybe it's not fair that college players don't get paid while those above them roll in the dough, but they are a privileged lot and have been since they started playing prep ball, even earlier now. I pretty much agree with Larry, you put up with some #### to get to a better place down the road.


Sure. Of course, they lose at least a year of eligibility, if not two if Rice decides to be vindictive. Not much of an option.

I am not saying they are not privileged, only that a player not reporting does not mean much. If we really want to let it play out, give the players the same ability to leave a school as a coach does.
   130. yb125 Posted: April 09, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4408753)
To be fair I believe five students have transferred out of the program over the last year. However we do not know the reason for the transfers.
   131. JL Posted: April 09, 2013 at 05:56 PM (#4408804)
To be fair I believe five students have transferred out of the program over the last year. However we do not know the reason for the transfers.


That seems high, but it could be for a lot of reasons. Illinois, which had a good year and no issues with its coach, had three students transfer this year due to playing time. If students could transfer with no restrictions, that would tell us a bit more about what they think of a coaches tactics.
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