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1. The Essex Snead Posted: January 28, 2009 at 07:51 PM (#3062558)Seriously. How lame.
Sit through an evaluation meeting with his boss? Hell, who wants to do that?
But these were the Yankees under Joe Torre. If you believed the hype, under the calming influence of St. Joe, a bunch of multi-millionaires, who under any mortal would be unmanageable, put aside everything to do what was best for the team, which over the last seven seasons didn't include winning the World Series.
Totally agree. I guess it wasn't just a hatchet job on A-Rod, Torre's out to ruin everyone. How's Verducci going to explain this?
[/po-faced trollery]
(You have to wonder if this affects his HoF chances).
Someone needs to Photoshop an old romance comic book cover ASAP.
Here's hoping the crier is the same player that begged out of a start midgame.
Naw, just the mercenaries. Not the "true" Yankees.
Naw, just the mercenaries. Not the "true" Yankees.
you say that as a joke, but....
I'll say 2001 - that was his very disappointing season in Oakland
Yes and no. I mean, I'm trying to sound snarky because I post at BBTF, but it seems Torre's problems were with the new guys. It reminds me of the movie The Big Red One when the replacement soldiers come in to the platoon and are ostracized by the old guard.
let's face it, writing about about John Gibbons getting into fistfights with his players isn't going to move product
Yeah, that ship has definitely sailed.
If you're Matt Kemp, James Loney, and Russell Martin, how happy are you reading all of this? Not to mention that when David Wells did the same thing, Torre was livid.
I bet Jeter does.
don't tell Dumber Than Ten Dogs that
don't tell Dumber Than Ten Dogs that
If there's one thing about the Dodgers today, its that Lasorda has no power in the front office.
Uh, no, I wouldn't say so.
I think it helps more than it hurts. Presumably he's not in at this point because some of the old guard doesn't think he's a good manager. Airing all the dirty laundry after the fact shows what a good job he did of managing the team's personalities.
But that team, even with all these weird things going on, pulled it together and made the playoffs--again. That would seem to be a point in favor Torre's abilities to manage the personalities on his team. Of course, he'll have a very much harder time getting anyone to trust him from here on out, but that's another issue altogether.
I don't understand the Damon discussion. Damon's leg was hurt--he couldn't be the all out guy that he had been. I don't get it. Was Torre saying he was dogging it? Or just being a gloomy Gus? And what wasn't Damon sure he wanted to do? Have the talk? Or go out and give it his all? He told his boss he wasn't sure he wanted to give it his all? What a weird conversation, all around.
I heard Verducci on some radio show, maybe Dan Patrick. He said something about Torre being a straight shooter, and how its his opportunity to write history. Whatever. Its his opportunity to come off as classless.
No, no, no! The appropriate snark is that it sank! That ship sank!
Being a non-Yankee fan (but ticket holder) in NYC, I think you're absolutely right.
And that makes me wonder: is there any sort of official list of True Yankees? I assume it starts with O'Neill, Tino, Jeter and Rivera.
And the other list is, what, ARod and Pavano?
Add Pettite, Bernie Williams, Scott Brosius and Posada, at least.
Sham Yankees: Pavano, A-Rod, Damon, Giambi, Loaiza, Mussina, Clemens, Weaver, etc.
Basically, if you were good when the Yanks won a WS, welcome to the True Yankee club! If you were good but the Yanks had stopped winning WS, then sorry but you have to stand beyond the velvet rope line.
Not in my old Festiva!
Ha!
So you're saying that, despite never playing for them, Pete Rose was the truest Yankee of them all.
He's not in at this point because he wasn't quite good enough to make it as a player and he's not eligible to be considered as a manager until he retires.
is there any sort of official list of True Yankees?
Celerino Sanchez, Rusty Torres, Jerry Kenney, Ron Bloomberg, Steve Whitaker, Joe Verbanic, Thad Tillotson...
Clemens, on the other hand, is a mystery.
A moo moo?
What does Suzyn Waldman think, I wonder?
Not sure about Key or Cone. Mendoza maight be a True Yankee.
No, presumably he's not in at this point because he's still managing and voters would prefer to wait until he has retired.
he's not eligible to be considered as a manager until he retires.
I don't think that is correct, but that is how voters are approaching it.
When he retires, I think he gets elected right away. Unless some disaster happens with the Dodgers over the next few seasons. Then it's possible he'll have to wait a bit while that gets forgotten about.
True Yankees: Mariano, O'Neill, Tino, Jeter, Brosius, Pettite, Posada, Knoblauch, Bernie, Boomer, maybe even Boggs
Sham Yankees: Pavano, A-Rod, Damon, Giambi, Loaiza, Mussina, Clemens, Weaver, Wright, K. Brown
Damn Yankees: Ruben Rivera
Torre's pretty much got a free pass for whatever he does. If the Dodgers don't win it'll be because DePodesta drafted kids that can't play in crucial situations and whine.
This is such ########. Way to create news, Verducci. Wow, the media likes Joe Torre and not A-Rod? Never would've guess that.
Cone definitely is. Haven't seen Mattingly listed and I think he's the inspiration for the damn phrase.
Key can't be. He's a true Jay.
Joe Pesci.
Was that because he was loved, or just because A-Rod was hated. After all, the Yankees were A-Rod's second choice, after the Boston negotiations.
Classy Joe.
Ruben RiveraTed Nugent, Tommy Shaw, Jack Blades, Michael Cartellone.link
Of course, there's also this:
So while the VC is free to consider his managing career when deciding whether to vote for him on the players' ballot, it makes all the sense in the world that they seem to be choosing not to given the existence of a separate process for managers.
this guy
Not Knoblauch.
you're missing the truest True Yankee of them all - that's right ... Luis Sojo
Not true, as I discovered while researching this post, George Steinbrenner stated the following about Rod Carew in 1979, "If a man doesn’t understand the privilege of playing for the New York Yankees, in the greatest baseball city in the world . . . then I don’t think [acquiring him] would be fair to our fans in New York, or our other ballplayers, who have won two world championships in a row."
If that's not True Yankee talk, I don't know what is.
The test of the Torre/Verducci book is how good it is, not whether everyone depicted in it is depicted as they would wish to be. Now, the book may well suck. Most books suck. But I think that Torre's telling stories in which certain players are not depicted as heroes is hardly grounds for dismissing the book.
???
Is the Pope Catholic? do bears #### in the woods?
First, I'd suggest you look at some of the quotes in the other thread. Torre runs down players who he didn't even manage. Second, you could argue that Ball Four was classless but still be glad it was published. Third, don't you think it's different coming from a manager than a player?
I'd also argue that the question isn't whether people like how they are depicted. It's whether Joe Torre should be sharing this information with the public and doing so in such a way as to make himself look good and others look bad. I'm sure a number of celebrity psychologists could write books that would fascinating to many people, but that wouldn't make the writing of the book any less of a betrayal.
I dunno. I get that people have responsibilities to their colleagues and the people they manage. I don't think that a manager needs to hold back in the same way a teacher needs to hold back in talking about students - the relationship is much less strictly hierarchical, and the players are grown-ass men.
There's something about calling the telling of stories "classless" that seems to risk cutting off the sources for the telling of histories. Certainly there are modes of storytelling that are typically classless - the self-serving mode, for instance - but I think there are important distinctions to make here.
(Note: Ball Four is awesomeness, and I'm not putting this book in that category in any way. Just using it as a comp for ease of argument.)
Jim Brosnan had written a couple of books before Bouton, as well. They weren't "tell alls" but they had stuff about the clubhouse in them. Good books, by the way. Brosnan could freakin write.
You also have to remember that the word "classy" is in this context defined as "makes NY sports fans happy". I've not seen any sports town rush to call their heroes "classy" - often despite contrary evidence based on the normal definition - nearly as much as in NYC. Reggie Jackson classy? Paul O'Neill classy? And it's been this way pretty much my whole life. It's like the "true Yankee" thing of late.
NY sports fans on this site are a lot smarter than that, and it's not that often that I find comments here about one of the Yankees being "classy". But now we're subjected to thread after thread on articles and blogs written by people who were making that distinction, and are now hurting their brains trying to undo those thoughts. Take it for the noise it is.
I like The Pennant Race, too. He seems as surprised as anyone the Reds won it! (The NL was damn good in those years.)
They knew he was writing a book, but I suspect that most if not all (this was almost 40 years ago) probably never guessed that Bouton would actually put things like beaver hunting in print.
Right. They probably expected something like The Long Season.
Indeed--I have talked about this before. TLS and PR are both PG whereas Ball Four is PG-13 or R. Bouton is fine, but Brosnan has wit and an eye for detail that is way above Bouton. I think TLS is better than PR but both are good. PR is a little naughtier--Brosnan was a minor star by '61, both on and off the field. One interesting element of the books is Brosnan's comments on race.
.
I have. It is OK if you are an NFL/Packers fan, but it's squeaky clean and a Lombardi hagiography. Dave Meggysey's book from the same era, Out of Their League, is just the opposite but it is not a "tell-all" in the salacious sense.
As reputations are tarnished at the top, Tanana moves up three notches on the waiting list to become a True Yankee, from #38,912 to #38,909.
I know you have to adjust for era, but the stuff that Torre is saying about these guys is way worse than what Bouton said about his teammates and coaches in Ball Four. Ball Four really went out of its way to humanize a lot of the people who were handled the worst in the book (Maglie, e.g.). A lot of these excerpts just seem mean and a meant to de-humanize the players.
Maybe, but we've only seen the salacious excerpts. We should probably hold off on judging the book until it comes out. We may find there are 10 provocative pages and 490 pages of sticky, encrusted Yankee love making the pages stick together.
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