BBTF's Newsblog Discussion :: Bill James Mailbag - 1/2/12

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Tuesday, January 03, 2012

Bill James Mailbag - 1/2/12 - 1/3/12

Read This All Together (See What Happens)

As Derek Jeter’s career comes to a close here in the next few years, it got me thinking, is he the best player to never win an MVP award? It seems to me that he’s had a couple of very close calls, but never finished first. Am I over-looking anyone? Who are the greatest players to never win an MVP award? Is there anyone else who will be/was a first-ballot hall of famer that never got the award?
Asked by: hansjn
Answered: 1/2/2012

... I think, if my research is good, there are nine first-ballot Hall of Famers who didn’t win an MVP Award—Puckett, Boggs, Gwynn, Ozzie, Brock, Molitor, Kaline, Winfield, Eddie Murray. Carlton Fisk was a second-ballot Hall of Famer and didn’t win, so we can make an All-Star team out of them (C—Fisk, 1B—Murray, 2B—Molitor, 3B—Boggs, SS—Ozzie, LF—Brock, CF—Puckett, RF—Gwynn, Kaline and Winfield.) Whether Dirty Rotten is the best of these players I will leave to another time.

what do you think jeters outlooks are on being in the top 3-4 shortstops of all time by the end of his career?
Asked by: bill byrd
Answered: 1/3/2012

I think he’s in the top four.

Bob Gregory and I have been arguing about which song is the best rock and roll song in history for months. I‘m trying to convince him that “Carry on Wayward Son” is the best; the one song that has everything that a true rock and roll classic needs. He isn’t buying it. Do you have a horse in this race?
Asked by: ventboys
Answered: 1/2/2012

... forced to pick, I think the best sober picks are the over-played and too-often heard Rolling Stones songs of the late sixties. ..Brown Sugar, Satisfaction, Jumpin’ Jack Flash, etc. I think the Stones are kind of the Babe Ruth of this competition; it’s cooler and sexier to argue for Musial or Mays or Ted Williams, but the Beast in the back of the room is the Bambino.

The District Attorney Posted: January 03, 2012 at 01:14 PM | 652 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: sabermetrics

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1. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:19 PM (#4027757)

I think the Stones are kind of the Babe Ruth of this competition; it’s cooler and sexier to argue for Musial or Mays or Ted Williams, but the Beast in the back of the room is the Bambino.

What's that make The Beatles?

2. Dan The Mediocre Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4027763)

What's that make The Beatles?

Derek Jeter

3. chris h. is a member of Team Keefe! Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4027764)

What's that make The Beatles?

Lou Gehrig. Pretty incredible, but not as good as the Babe. Also, a shortened career.

4. Brian C Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4027772)

I think James is on the right track with his pick of the Stones, in the sense that the "best" song in rock history would have probably come relatively early on, but not too early to be formative, and that it would be an overplayed radio hit. And the reason for those criteria would be that it's hard to argue that something was the "best" in any meaningful way if it wasn't definitional in some sense. But I think he ultimately misses - "My Generation" probably is a better pick. "Satisfaction" is a good candidate too, though, and surely more in the conversation than "Brown Sugar". That's an odd candidate.

The Kansas pick is just bizarre.

5. John DiFool2 Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4027773)

I'd take Ott over Gwynn in right.

6. Guapo Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4027779)

best rock and roll song in history

"Gloria"- Patti Smith

7. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4027780)

What's that make The Beatles?

Not as good as the Stones. Or the Who.

8. Ray (RDP)

Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:33 PM (#4027784)

... I think, if my research is good, there are nine first-ballot Hall of Famers who didn’t win an MVP Award—Puckett, Boggs, Gwynn, Ozzie, Brock, Molitor, Kaline, Winfield, Eddie Murray. Carlton Fisk was a second-ballot Hall of Famer and didn’t win, so we can make an All-Star team out of them (C—Fisk, 1B—Murray, 2B—Molitor, 3B—Boggs, SS—Ozzie, LF—Brock, CF—Puckett, RF—Gwynn, Kaline and Winfield.) Whether Dirty Rotten is the best of these players I will leave to another time.

Did any of them lead their league in WAR or oWAR or VORP in any year? Maybe Boggs? Jeter in 1999?

9. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4027789)

The Eagles = Jack Morris

Nickelback = Yuniesky Betancourt

10. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4027790)

I‘m trying to convince him that “Carry on Wayward Son” is the best; the one song that has everything that a true rock and roll classic needs. He isn’t buying it.

I mean, without even getting into the taste deficit on display, how exactly is that argument made? What are the categories? Needed: a capella break, guitar solo previous to the first verse, several minutes of outro, more guitar solos, lyrics that confuse metaphor and simile within the same expression, and guitar solos.

On a stormy sea of moving emotion
Tossed about I'm like a ship on the ocean

11. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4027793)

Whether Dirty Rotten is the best of these players I will leave to another time.

"Dirty Rotten"?

12. Anonymous Observer Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4027794)

Nickelback = Yuniesky Betancourt

Folks, we have a winner.

13. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4027795)

Boggs led the AL in WAR every year from '86-'88. Gwynn was tops in '87. Winfield led in '79.

14. JRVJ Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4027797)

Some 20+ years ago, Rolling Stone did an issue on this, and I'm pretty sure Satisfaction came out ahead. I'm a huge Stones fan, but I prefer Honky Tonk Woman, Sympathy for the Devil or even Start me Up as their most iconic song (though I'm a bit of an odd duck in that I treasure their later works more than most people do).

15. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4027803)

The best player never to win an MVP is Manny Ramirez, probably. He will not be a first ballot Hall of Famer, definitely.

Trying to downgrade the Beatles is like standing on the shore and yelling at the water to get lost.

16. Bob Dernier Cri

Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4027806)

The Beatles were wonderful, but their best stuff is various pop ballads: how many true rock songs did they write? "Can't Buy Me Love" was in the idiom, but was covered by Ella Fitzgerald – that should be a disqualifier right there. Of the rockier Beatles songs, I like "Old Brown Shoe," but wouldn't claim it for #1. "Instant Karma," among individual later songs, is still wonderful.

I am betraying a Texas bias here, but "La Grange" by ZZ Top seems to me a concentrated bit of excellence. It's got energy, attitude, and guitar licks that have made many a garage interior happy :)

17. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4027807)

The best player never to win an MVP is Manny Ramirez, probably.

Boggs was better - a lot better.

18. Brian C Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4027810)

Some 20+ years ago, Rolling Stone did an issue on this, and I'm pretty sure Satisfaction came out ahead. I'm a huge Stones fan, but I prefer Honky Tonk Woman, Sympathy for the Devil or even Start me Up as their most iconic song (though I'm a bit of an odd duck in that I treasure their later works more than most people do).

"Satisfaction" isn't my favorite song of theirs either, not by a long shot, and I even agree that some of their others are more representative of the Stones as a band.

But to me, the question of "best" in this context means something closer to "archetypical" than any kind of aesthetic judgment. So we're not looking for the most representative of the Stones' work, but the most representative of rock as a musical genre. It's a subtle but important difference.

19. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader

Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4027812)

Wouldn't the quintessential rock song be Johnny B. Goode or something?

Folks, we have a winner.

Hey hey hey. At least Yuni is an actual baseball player.

20. SteveF Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4027813)

There are just so many good Beatles songs, enough for 3-4 great bands. Though most of their songs are just too refined for my taste.

As for the Stones, I've always preferred Paint it, Black. Not a particularly iconic song for them, though. I suspect it is the song most people like best who don't much care for the Stones.

21. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4027817)

I read the headline as an obituary.

22. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4027826)

To my mind, the quintessential rock song (not rock'n'roll) would be "Won't Get Fooled Again". The Beatles were the best rock group of all time, but their music was so multi-faceted and stylistically diverse that no one song sums them up. If they have a horse in this race it would probably be one of the early hits, "She Loves You" or "I Want to Hold Your Hand"...

23. Textbook Editor Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4027828)

"Summer Babe (Winter Version)" has to be in the mix here, but I suppose I'm hopelessly biased.

24. Bob Evans Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:59 PM (#4027833)

I read the headline as an obituary.

Worst obituary ever.

how many true rock songs did they write

Best song: "Paperback Writer".

Carry on Wayward Son

A great song...when I was 15.

quintessential rock song

"96 Tears".

25. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader

Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4027835)

"Summer Babe (Winter Version)" has to be in the mix here, but I suppose I'm hopelessly biased.

I resisted the temptation! These discussions are always about Boomer music, anyway.

26. TerpNats Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4027838)

The Beatles were wonderful, but their best stuff is various pop ballads: how many true rock songs did they write? "Can't Buy Me Love" was in the idiom, but was covered by Ella Fitzgerald -– that should be a disqualifier right there.

Then "Sunshine Of Your Love" is disqualified for the same reason.

Of the rockier Beatles songs, I like "Old Brown Shoe," but wouldn't claim it for #1. "Instant Karma," among individual later songs, is still wonderful.

"Instant Karma" is great, but it's a John Lennon recording. The Beatles' best rocker may be either "I'm Down," where Paul McCartney fully unleashes his inner Little Richard, or "Day Tripper."

If we're going to choose a song from the late '70s, then it should be some early Elvis Costello -- "Mystery Dance" or "Pump It Up."

From the earlier Elvis, "All Shook Up" ("Blue Suede Shoes," too, although I prefer Carl Perkins' original).

27. AROM Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4027839)

Boggs was better - a lot better.

Kaline would be my choice among those listed. Surprising that Mel Ott never won the MVP, despite leading the league in OPS+ 5 times and being a good defensive outfielder.

Honus Wagner is the best to never win the award though. If the award were around in it's present format during his career, he probably would have won about 12 of them. Or at least deserved to. As it is, there were a few MVP awards given during his playing time and his best finish was #2 in 1912.

28. Bob Dernier Cri

Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:06 PM (#4027848)

One of the Beatles' best rock songs was Twist and Shout, also one of the few covers they did that got a lot of play. The other marvelous Beatles cover, that exemplifies their range, is Till There Was You. From the sublime to another sort of the sublime.

I will also nominate the Talking Heads' Life During Wartime (a late-Boomer entry :)

29. Dan The Mediocre Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:08 PM (#4027852)

I resisted the temptation! These discussions are always about Boomer music, anyway.

Not just Rock and Roll Music...

30. phredbird

Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4027857)

The Beatles were the best rock group of all time, but their music was so multi-faceted and stylistically diverse that no one song sums them up.

i agree with this, but i think of the stones as being more about rock and roll as a way of life and less about music vs. the beatles.

'can't you hear me knocking?' is just about the most perfect rock and roll song ever, just for the opening riff, but there are a lot of other stones songs that are just about as good. honky tonk women, midnight rambler, etc.

31. What did Billy Ripken have against Elroy Face? Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4027858)

To my mind, the quintessential rock song (not rock'n'roll) would be "Won't Get Fooled Again". The Beatles were the best rock group of all time, but their music was so multi-faceted and stylistically diverse that no one song sums them up.

This. And Born to Run.

32. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4027861)

"I Heard Her Call My Name."
If the Boomers didn't buy it, does it still count as Boomer music?

33. bookbook Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4027862)

Funny, I was certain Bill James would have been one of those guys who just doesn't believe in the Fed and the positive influence it's had for the past 100 years. I'm not sure why I thought this given that he's the supreme rational person. Maybe it's his stated and detailed disdain for "professionals."

34. Babe Adams Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4027863)

Runaround Sue, Dion.

Chuck Berry has half a dozen songs as good as anything that's been mentioned.

35. chris h. is a member of Team Keefe! Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:21 PM (#4027871)

Well it may not be my favorite Stones song, but the song that seems most "archetypal" to me has to be Gimme Shelter (and I'm amazed it hasn't been mentioned yet).

36. Morty Causa Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4027873)

I'd go with Dylan's "Like A Rolling Stone" or Steppenwolf's "Born to Be Wild" or The Animals' "House of the Rising Sun" to be signature songs of the classic rock era. They come closest to encapsulating a zeitgeist.

But the Beatles have to be the best when it comes to varied excellence and have the best, most complex vocals--hell, four lead singers covering the entirety of the scales with three guys who could do back up with the best of the doo-wops. Can't beat that.

37. Voros McCracken, Human Shield Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4027875)

"96 Tears"

I actually saw ? and the Mysterians at the Empty Bottle in the late 90s. They actually put on quite a show.

38. Voros McCracken, Human Shield Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4027881)

Oh and the greatest rock song of all time is the "Ballad of Jerry Curlan" a song with a bunch of good stories about it, but the best is that it's actually about this guy:

He has lots of friends in Washington.

I do wonder if any of the folks he works with knows...

39. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4027890)

Oh and the greatest rock song of all time is the "Ballad of Jerry Curlan"

I have a friend who insists that Back from Samoa is the greatest album ever made.

40. Blastin Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4027894)

I'd go with Dylan's "Like A Rolling Stone"

That's what Rolling Stone picked as the best song - period - about 8 or 9 years ago.

Though that's sort of like Entertainment Weekly picking "That's Entertainment." (A joke EW itself made.)

41. OsunaSakata Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:43 PM (#4027895)

My favorite rockin' Beatles song is probably "I Saw Her Standing There". But what would you call "Get Back"? A dance song?

42. Walt Davis Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:45 PM (#4027899)

Eh, don't care really ... endless discussion and, even putting the chimera of "objective aesthetics" to the side, it will largely boil down to how you define "rock 'n' roll" which is the way most folks are disqualifying the Beatles (with which I would generally agree).

But we can probably all agree that carry on my wayward son is an awful choice. Although I suppose that too reflects how you view "rock 'n' roll" -- the 70s were big on long, pointless "story" songs of mysterious "meaning". Stairway to Heaven, Hotel California, Love Reign o'er me (a personal fave), just about anything by Rush, Styx or even Steely Dan; and sure you can add some of Springsteen's stuff although at least most of those are pretty clearly about a guy and a girl running away from it all. Anyway, if your rock virginity was taken by those 70s "classics" I can see how you'd consider those sorts of songs to be iconic examples of rock. Still not sure how you get to Carry on my Wayward Son though ... it's half-baked Jethro Tull.

Oops, I forgot, Tull were heavy metal. :-)

Meanwhile ...

Jeter vs. Fisk -- draw
Jeter > Puckett
Jeter < Boggs
Jeter vs. Gwynn -- think I may have to go Jeter on position and durability
Jeter > Winfield
Jeter < Kaline
(Jeter < Ott obviously)
Jeter > Murray -- see Gwynn
Jeter > Molitor
Jeter vs. Ozzie -- impossible; matter vs. anti-matter

43. Voros McCracken, Human Shield Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4027903)

I have a friend who insists that Back from Samoa is the greatest album ever made.

Probably, in its own reprehensible way, it is. I saw liner notes on a comp one time that said if the PMRC had gotten a whiff of this thing...

44. SugarBear Blanks

Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:50 PM (#4027908)

The 20th century canon remains the following:

Rubber Soul
Revolver
Velvet Underground & Nico
Exile on Main Street
Born to Run
London Calling
Murmur
Reckoning
Let it Be
Tim
Fear of a Black Planet
Nevermind
Odelay

All better than Jeter.

45. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4027912)

Wouldn't the best rock song ever be a song that nearly 100% of the population could identify the band that sung it? Carry on Wayward Son could garner about a 40%. Too many Styx and Supertramp and Steve Miller guesses.

46. Morty Causa Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4027913)

Eh, don't care really ... endless discussion and, even putting the chimera of "objective aesthetics" to the side, it will largely boil down to how you define "rock 'n' roll" which is the way most folks are disqualifying the Beatles (with which I would generally agree).

But the thing about The Beatles, when it came to definition, they were essentially l'etat c'est moi

47. Voros McCracken, Human Shield Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4027918)

The closest the Beatles ever came to the proto-punk that was swirling about at the time was probably "You Can't Do That."

48. JPWF1313 Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:03 PM (#4027923)

I'd go with Dylan's "Like A Rolling Stone" or Steppenwolf's "Born to Be Wild" or The Animals' "House of the Rising Sun" to be signature songs of the classic rock era. They come closest to encapsulating a zeitgeist.

Born to be Wild is a GREAT GREAT GREAT rock and roll song, as good as anything the Stones did, come to thk of it, so was Magic Carpet Ride... unfortunately The Stones cranked out quite few more songs at ro near that level than Steppenwolf did.

The Real Me would have been a contender with a differnet bass mix (sound/tuning)

Also back in the 70s/80s just about ever AOR station said the answer to this question was Stairway to Heaven...

Plus this is the "problem" with the Beatles- A Day in the Life is a great work of music, but I'm not sure it is Rock n Roll. Yesterday is a great song- but I am sure it is not Rock n Roll.

Also, Purple Haze
and how about outliers, great songs from bands/people who actually weren't all that good- Hot Blooded was a great Rock song, but Foreigner was just kind of meh... Jessie's Girl was actually kind of good, Rick Springfield most definately sucked.

49. Bob Dernier Cri

Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4027930)

The Beatles were kind of like Shakespeare – when you look at Elizabethan/Jacobean drama, there were a lot of good writers, each of whom did something in one subgenre or another that was as good as it got (Volpone or The White Devil or Perkin Warbeck or what have you). And Shakespeare did work as good in all the genres. I mean, the Beatles never wrote anything a whole lot better than "Well-Respected Man" or "As Tears Go By" or "I'm a Believer"; but they wrote about 50 songs as good.

My favorite example of the kind of creative decade they had came a couple of years ago when Gordon of Peter & Gordon died, and there were major obituaries citing "A World without Love," which is indeed a lovely song and deserved to have been a #1 hit. And come to find that Paul McCartney wrote the song as a way of showing that he could write something that could succeed without being attached to Beatlemania. It's like finding out that Albert Pujols is throwing nohitters as a winter-ball pitcher.

50. Voros McCracken, Human Shield Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:12 PM (#4027931)

The 20th century canon remains the following:

Rubber Soul
Revolver
Velvet Underground & Nico
Exile on Main Street
Born to Run
London Calling
Murmur
Reckoning
Let it Be
Tim
Fear of a Black Planet
Nevermind
Odelay

All better than Jeter.

Vortex, I don't see Back From Samoa on there. I also don't see The Romantics on there and that's just inexcusable. Pink Leather Suits on the cover of their debut album playing music that was either 15 years too late or 15 years too early. Though there's no defending what happened to them after that I'm afraid.

51. Dale Sams Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4027938)

Let's not overlook the Skynyrd in this convo or even an outlier like Van Halen..

52. gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4027939)

Oh and the greatest rock song of all time is the "Ballad of Jerry Curlan"

Great band (after whom I named my first ever fantasy baseball team back in '88, plus of course Metal Mike gets bonus points for being from Little Rock), but I'll take "Inside My Brain" or "Right Side of My Mind," if you please.

53. Perry Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:17 PM (#4027941)

But the thing about The Beatles, when it came to definition, they were essentially l'etat c'est moi

They could have been the greatest rock-and-roll band ever, if they had wanted to be.

54. gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4027947)

London Calling over the debut? No Bollocks? No Dylan or CCR or Joy Division or Stiff Little Fingers or Killing Joke or Cramps or Gun Club or Wire or Fall or Mekons or about 100 other LPs over anything other than Fear of a Black Planet on that list?

Twaddle!

55. Dale Sams Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4027953)

Still not sure how you get to Carry on my Wayward Son though ... it's half-baked Jethro Tull.

Play too much Guitar Hero...oh, and Queen shits out songs better than COMWS.

56. JRVJ Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4027954)

20th century cannon with only Exile is way too limited on the Stones side. And the Police is missing from that list (it shouldn't be). Don't think REM should have 2 albums there, and I was REALLY into Reckoning when I was young.

As to the Beatles, I don't think the Beatles can objectively be called a Rock band. Yes, they were far ranging, but they weren't (say) a country band, or a heavy metal band and they really didn't ply their craft in the Rock waters enough IMO (I'm not dissing what they did, just saying that it's not really Rock).

Using the Stones as a frame of reference, Ithe Stones are not a Country band because of Country Honk and Far Away Eyes (or even Factory Girl) or a Reggae band because of CHerry Oh Baby or even an Arab band because of Continental Drift.

57. Morty Causa Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:28 PM (#4027955)

The Beatles are sui generis, yes. There are elements that the other big groups of the sixties share, and sounds that are quite similar. You don't mistake The Beatles for any other group. Plus, there's just the variety at an incomparable level of excellence. Of course much of their stuff is not R&R, especially the late period stuff, but a lot is, much of it smooth but still elemental. Plus they could cover a great song by a great group and make it theirs, like Twist & Shout, Slow Down, Rock 'n' Roll Music, etc. That's audacity.

Rock and Roll: A Hard Day's Night; Help; Revolution; Helter Skelter; I Feel Fine; Ticket to Ride; She Loves You; Tell Me Why; You Can't Do That; Yer Blues; You're Gonna Lose That Girl; Day Tripper; Eight Days A Week; I Am the Walrus (yes, the epitome of fonky); I Should Have Known Better.

58. Morty Causa Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4027958)

As to the Beatles, I don't think the Beatles can objectively be called a Rock band. Yes, they were far ranging, but they weren't (say) a country band, or a heavy metal band and they really didn't ply their craft in the Rock waters enough IMO (I'm not dissing what they did, just saying that it's not really Rock).

I was going to say--they cover their tracks well. They assimilated their influences so completely that it's hard to trace and detect, unlike the other great bands, especially hard rock bands. They're just frigging original.

59. Voros McCracken, Human Shield Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:32 PM (#4027960)

Todd Homer's vocal performance in the studio of the lone take he was capable of doing of "Jerry Curlan" was apparently the stuff of legend. Those are authentic gasps for air at the end. Apparently they recorded it at the studio of a famous rock guy (I forget who) and the guy's daughter witnessed the whole debacle and left crying. Too bad there was no video...

60. simon bedford Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:38 PM (#4027964)

The cover issue presents some of the weaknesses in some of the other bands listed , the stones have some horrendous covers on their resume one of the worst is their version of "my girl" showing a band who's reach far extended their grasp many times.
Hearing The Who destroying "Dancing in the Sreets" is another howling bad cover , the Beatles closest rival to either of these two would be "Mister Moonlight" and Lennons vocal just about saves it.

61. JPWF1313 Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4027965)

Go for Soda by Kim Mitchell

She Sells Sanctuary by The Cult

Anarchy in the UK

No Time

More than a Feeling

Smells like Teen Spirit

Young Lust

Fortunate Son

Staying Alive (ok I'm kidding, I was watching Staurday Night Fever a few nights ago, and I can't say that any "good" movie has aged as badly as that one, the music, the clothes the hair, the accents, it all combines into one massively hideous parody- and yet it was meant as- and at the time perceived as- a gritty drama) Staying Alive is a great song, or a great riff in search of a song- but now halfway through you think, why no drummer? (lierally there wasn't one, they used a perpetually looped 3 beat drum track) and why have a grown man sing in that chipmonky falsetto? (Because they did it once as a joke and got a hit out of it, and so went back to that well time and again...)

62. Dale Sams Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4027966)

23 bands better than Kansas

Asia
Beatles
Cars
Divinyls
ELO
Frankie Goes to Hollywood
Genesis
Heart (old)
INXS
The Jam
Lynyrd Skynyrd
Motorhead
Nirvana
Oingo Boingo
Pink Floyd
Queen
Rush
Split Enz
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers
Ultravox
Van Halen
Wall of Voodoo
XTC

63. Random Transaction Generator Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4027968)

My choice all-time-greatest rock song is "Sympathy for the Devil".

The song has all the pieces you need to be a great rock song.

- big name band (possibly the best rock band of all time)
- long song, but not unbearably (too long and it's tedious, too short and it's over too soon to really enjoy)
- guitar solo of note
- emphatic vocals (with the prerequisite "yell/scream" part)
- interesting lyrics that demand numerous playbacks to get it all
- the song evolves from start to finish (minimal at the beginning, wall of sound at the end)
- unforgettable "hook" ("WOO-WOO!")
- controversial topic
- historical interest (supposedly "that song" from Altamount, not played for years)
- iconic enough that everyone wants to cover it

64. JRVJ Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4027969)

Morty, I don't deny that the Beatles had some rockers. But in your estimation, how much of their work is undeniably Rock & Roll and neither a ballad nor a Pop song? (mind you, "8 days a week" sounds way too much like Pop to me and I would hesitate to include "I am the Walrus" as a Rock song).

65. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader

Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4027971)

I was watching Staurday Night Fever a few nights ago, and I can't say that any "good" movie has aged as badly as that one, the music, the clothes the hair, the accents, it all combines into one massively hideous parody- and yet it was meant as- and at the time perceived as- a gritty drama)

I actually think it's a very good movie. I don't think it's supposed to be gritty in the way Taxi Driver is gritty, but it holds up well as a coming of age story. My boss at my old firm was actually from Bay Ridge and lived through the Disco era. He used to say the movie brought back a lot of memories.

66. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader

Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4027974)

My choice all-time-greatest rock song is "Sympathy for the Devil".

The book that inspired it is pretty good, too. The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov. Highly recommended.

67. The elusive Robert Denby Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4027975)

"Surrender" by Cheap Trick.

I had a friend who thought that Kansas was just awesome. My ticket into heaven is that although he would play them constantly, I refrained from killing him.

68. Swedish Chef Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4027976)

My choice all-time-greatest rock song is "Sympathy for the Devil".

But can a rock song be a samba?

69. JPWF1313 Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4027977)

Frankie Goes to Hollywood

Relax

totally forgot that band existed

more:
The Logical Song
Don't Bring me Down
Another One Bites the Dust
Lump
Straight to Hell
Operation Spirit (The Tyranny of Tradition)
Movin Out (1st rock song I learned all the lyrics to, why? I know longer know but figure there must have been a reason)

70. JRVJ Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4027979)

Certainly not a HoF band, but Asia does get mentioned in 62, and I wanted to point out that their songs are just wonderful from a technical standpoint (mind you, I like prog rock, so I like their work too).

71. Dag Nabbit apealing [sic] his own check swing Posted: January 03, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4027982)

Rock and Roll: A Hard Day's Night; Help; Revolution; Helter Skelter; I Feel Fine; Ticket to Ride; She Loves You; Tell Me Why; You Can't Do That; Yer Blues; You're Gonna Lose That Girl; Day Tripper; Eight Days A Week; I Am the Walrus (yes, the epitome of fonky); I Should Have Known Better.

Plus: I Want to Hold Your Hand, From Me to You, Twist and Shout, Please Please Me, Boys, It Won't Be Long, Roll Over Beethoven, Money, Please Mr. Postman, Hold Me Tight, I Wanna Be Your Man, A Hard Day's Night, Can't Buy Me Love, Any Time at All, Long Tall Sally, Dizzie Miss Lizzie, I'm Down, I've Just Seen a Face, Bad Boy, Rain, Paperback Writer, And Your Bird Can Sing, Taxman, Getting Better, Good Morning Good Morning, Sgt Pepper (Reprise), Hey Bulldog, Everybody's Got Somethign to Hide Except for Me and My Monkey, While My Guitar Gently Weeps, Birthday.

They had a lot of rock in their earlier years. In 1963-64, it was pop but they also rocked harder than anyone else at that time. Compare "She Loves You" to "Walk Like a Man." Both 1963. Early Beatles were the perfect fusion of pop and rock. No one has ever replicated it. Well, maybe the Undertones for a few songs.

72. Crispix Attacks Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4027987)

Since Dave Parker isn't on the HoF ballot anymore, I'll switch to nominating West, Bruce and Laing for the Classic Rock Song HoF. Jack Bruce's "Pollution Woman" is fantastic.

73. JPWF1313 Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4027992)

Split Enz
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers
Ultravox
Van Halen
Wall of Voodoo
XTC

Ultravox- One Small Day
Split Enz- I Got You
Tom Petty- A Woman in Love (what you thought I was gonna say Refugee)
Wall of Voodoo- I have no recollection of any song other than Mexican Radio
XTC- ??? Dear God was ok but overrated, Senses Working Overtime was simply hideous, I've been told the have good songs, but I've never heard them - maybe they do/did, but I heard the same thing about The Smiths- and having been subjected to several of their (and Morriesey's) albums due to a sibling being a big fan I knwo that wasn't quite true.
Van Halen- Ain't Talking About Love

and Would by Alice in Chains

74. gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4027993)

Well, maybe the Undertones for a few songs.

And the Buzzcocks for more than a few, I'd say.

75. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4027995)

The book that inspired it is pretty good, too. The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov. Highly recommended.

I'll second that recommendation. I read this last year. Great story.

76. Crispix Attacks Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4027996)

If the Rolling Stones are the Babe Ruth of rock, who are Babe Ruth?

(album containing linked song is great, by the way)

77. gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4027998)

XTC- ??? Dear God was ok but overrated, Senses Working Overtime was simply hideous, I've been told the have good songs, but I've never heard them - maybe they do/did,

"Making Plans for Nigel." Alao a fair amount of the 2nd LP, "Go 2."

but I heard the same thing about The Smiths- and having been subjected to several of their (and Morriesey's) albums due to a sibling being a big fan I knwo that wasn't quite true.

Other than "Suedehead" & "Every Day is Like Sunday," pretty much all the Morrissey anyone needs is Your Arsenal.

78. Morty Causa Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4028002)

Morty, I don't deny that the Beatles had some rockers. But in your estimation, how much of their work is undeniably Rock & Roll and neither a ballad nor a Pop song? (mind you, "8 days a week" sounds way too much like Pop to me and I would hesitate to include "I am the Walrus" as a Rock song).

About 50%.

I can certainly see where you coming from, though. "Pop" to me covers a lot. Just because a song is a pop song doesn't mean to me that can't be assigned to a more telling genre. Pop is whatever is popular.

However I would also point out that a lot of the Beatles stuff is hybrid--they were particular good at cross breeding ballads and rock and roll. Take the fast ballad, The Ballad of John and Yoko. Almost folk, sort of like Dylan's Tangled in Blue, except distinctly Lennon. If Stairway to Heaven is Rock and Roll, then so is A Day in the Life. If some punk is rock and roll, then so is Walrus and, for that matter, Come Together (and speaking of original--this is Lewis Carroll with a Blues beat and R&R fringes).

But, I might agree. It's easy to see the blues influences in Clapton, or even the Bill Haley and Carl Perkins influence in Elvis, but the Beatles just seem to do songs that are classified as Beatles song. Their very early songs, I Wanna Hold Your Hand, etc., may be pop, or even bubble gum, but it's still excellent elemental rock and roll, Beatles style.

79. JPWF1313 Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:11 PM (#4028003)

"Surrender" by Cheap Trick.

Dream Police

Certainly not a HoF band, but Asia does get mentioned in 62, and I wanted to point out that their songs are just wonderful from a technical standpoint (mind you, I like prog rock, so I like their work too).

They were a band you just wished wrote/worked with better songs

also
Jefferson Airplane- Somebody to Love/Volunteers of America
Jefferson Starship- Jane/Find Your Way Back
Starship- absolutely nothing of redeeming value

80. Brian

Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4028004)

Sweet Home Alabama

81. Baldrick Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4028005)

It depends what you mean by rock. The Stones were clearly much better at some certain kinds of rock - bluesy, heavy, sludgy, etc.

And for some people that is what rock is. If you are one of those people, then it's clearly silly to put The Beatles at the top. If you ascribe to a more broad theory of rock then it's hard to argue for anyone but The Beatles.

For precisely the Babe Ruth argument - they weren't just the best (or at least one of the best) at one thing. They were also really good at something completely different. The versatility is what really sets them apart.

82. Ned Garvin: Male Prostitute Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:13 PM (#4028006)

I won't jump into this discussion in any real way, but even though I think the Beatles are the best band of all time (not best *rock* band, and not my favorite band, but the best for reasons explained previously), the worst part of the Christmas season is hearing that awful Beatles Christmas song at the mall. It makes me want to wretch.

83. Morty Causa Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:14 PM (#4028011)

Plus: I Want to Hold Your Hand, From Me to You, Twist and Shout, Please Please Me, Boys, It Won't Be Long, Roll Over Beethoven, Money, Please Mr. Postman, Hold Me Tight, I Wanna Be Your Man, A Hard Day's Night, Can't Buy Me Love, Any Time at All, Long Tall Sally, Dizzie Miss Lizzie, I'm Down, I've Just Seen a Face, Bad Boy, Rain, Paperback Writer, And Your Bird Can Sing, Taxman, Getting Better, Good Morning Good Morning, Sgt Pepper (Reprise), Hey Bulldog, Everybody's Got Somethign to Hide Except for Me and My Monkey, While My Guitar Gently Weeps, Birthday.

Ex-cellent!

Yeah.

And the Beatles could cover someone else's big hit and make it sound like it's all theirs--and that includes Chuck Berry and Little Richard. In songs like Twist & Shout and Slow Down, they shave off that R&B fat and made it pile-driving carnality (especially with Lennon arrangements and lead vocals--his lead in say Twist & Shout takes it to verge of incoherence, yet he never breaks form).

84. Morty Causa Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4028012)

81:

Exactly.

85. gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4028013)

the worst part of the Christmas season is hearing that awful Beatles Christmas song at the mall. It makes me want to wretch.

I'm not sure I knew they had one. Perhaps I've blocked it out of my memory.

86. Crispix Attacks Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4028015)

XTC- ??? Dear God was ok but overrated, Senses Working Overtime was simply hideous, I've been told the have good songs, but I've never heard them - maybe they do/did, but I heard the same thing about The Smiths- and having been subjected to several of their (and Morriesey's) albums due to a sibling being a big fan I knwo that wasn't quite true.

I love XTC, but they have a lot of great songs and a lot of over-written songs with overly complicated melodies and overly clever lyrics. And most of their hit singles are in the latter category (exceptions: "Respectable Street", "Ballad of Peter Pumpkinhead", "Mayor of Simpleton"). I think a collection of their 12 biggest hits would be less enjoyable than any of their actual albums except maybe their debut and "Apple Venus". Meanwhile the odds-and-ends collection "Rag and Bone Buffet" is fantastic.

87. JRVJ Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4028017)

They had a lot of rock in their earlier years. In 1963-64, it was pop but they also rocked harder than anyone else at that time. Compare "She Loves You" to "Walk Like a Man." Both 1963. Early Beatles were the perfect fusion of pop and rock. No one has ever replicated it. Well, maybe the Undertones for a few songs.

88. gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4028018)

Wall of Voodoo- I have no recollection of any song other than Mexican Radio

"Back in Flesh" is great. Neat cover of "Ring of Fire," too. They even survived Stan Ridgway's departure in fine style, IMHO -- speaking of covers, check out their version of the Beach Boys' "Do It Again."

Ultravox- One Small Day

The original version of the band, with John Foxx on vocals, was far better, IMO -- see "Satday Night in the City of the Dead," "My Sex" or "Hiroshima Mon Amour," among others.

89. Guapo Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4028019)

You guys forgot "Back in the USSR" (maybe their best rocker).

Also, whatever the best Rock and Roll song of all time is- it needs to be about #######. Hence "Gloria" by Patti Smith. Or maybe "Teenage Kicks."

90. Crispix Attacks Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4028020)

the worst part of the Christmas season is hearing that awful Beatles Christmas song at the mall. It makes me want to wretch.

Do you mean the awful John and Yoko Christmas song, or the awful Paul McCartney Christmas song?

91. Swedish Chef Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4028023)

Also, whatever the best Rock and Roll song of all time is- it needs to be about #######. Hence "Gloria" by Patti Smith. Or maybe "Teenage Kicks."

Has anybody deciphered "Louie Louie" yet?

92. beefshower Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4028025)

I am pretty late on this but I saw somebody above mentioned Question Mark and the Mysterians and I thought I would write a comment to say that Question Mark, a/k/a Rudy Martinez, is a client of mine. When I first opened my office here in Flint a few years ago he was one of my first clients. He is an awesome guy, really friendly and a great story teller. He's a little out there though and he still wears nothing but leather pants, leather jacket and sunglasses and acts and talks like a rock star still. He breeds Yorkies now and he fell on some hard times recently when his house burned down and he lost all of his memorabilia and stuff from when his band was really famous. Also every time he comes into my office he cleans out my candy dish. I know this has nothing to do with baseball but I spend about half my workday lurking around this site and seeing his name on here was kind of surprising. It also reminded me I need to get back to work.

93. Morty Causa Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4028026)

"Back inthe USSR: and "Get Back" and some others bring to mind Lennon's stricture about songs that I first read in that last interview he gave: they don't go anywhere. There's some great jammin' there, but that's all. For him, a truly great song had to also incorporate an emotional movement. If you notice, as great as McCartney's early ballads are, they tend to be descriptive, emotionally static, making an ideal romantic statement, while Lennon's tend to have a worm in the apple. Something tends to happen in his songs. There's an emotional complexity.

94. Baldrick Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4028027)

Do you mean the awful John and Yoko Christmas song, or the awful Paul McCartney Christmas song?

I think he's talking about "My Sweet Lord."

95. Dag Nabbit apealing [sic] his own check swing Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4028028)

71, the Beatles are not seen as the best band ever because of their early work - it's what they did AFTER their early period that turned them into Gods (depending on your tastes, they started changing into a sui generis entity with Rubber Soul or Revolver).

I know that, but I think their early stuff has been underrated by and large. Revolver is their best album, though.

For No One - not a rocker, but the most underrated Beatles song of all. A pure gem.

96. Dale Sams Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:27 PM (#4028031)

XTC- ??? Dear God was ok but overrated, Senses Working Overtime was simply hideous, I've been told the have good songs, but I've never heard them

What Gef said, and here's the second track after 'Making Plans for Nigel' on Drums and Wires.

I agree about the later stuff being overproduced (Hello (it's me) Todd Rundgren!!)

97. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4028032)

I'm not sure I knew they had one. Perhaps I've blocked it out of my memory.

"Christmas Time (Is Here Again)". A little ditty written and recorded (in a couple of hours) in 1967 as part of their annual Christmas single for their fan club. Never meant to be commercially released, and it wasn't during their heyday, but it came out as a b-side of "Free As a Bird" during the 1990s.

98. zonk Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4028033)

But to me, the question of "best" in this context means something closer to "archetypical" than any kind of aesthetic judgment. So we're not looking for the most representative of the Stones' work, but the most representative of rock as a musical genre. It's a subtle but important difference.

I think this is about right -- and I think it's also why "Satisfaction" should probably get the nod. It's got everything you need -- broad popularity and accessibility, enough anti-authority double-entendre, memorable guitar licks, anthemic, etc.

I think the Beatles were better musicians - and you could pick any number of Beatles tunes as better aesthetically... The Who may have encapsulated rock's soul a bit better at their height -- but "Satisfaction" is probably the consensus Ruth of rock music.

Interesting also-rans in the Ted Williams sense of not anything to be ashamed about would probably include:

Born to Run - probably the best of the US-born set
Johnny B Goode - if you're a bit older/more historically appreciative
I'm sure there's an Elvis song or two

I'd agree with Born to be Wild as archetypal - but that's sort of like including Jim Rice in the discussion based solely on 1978 (bear with me, I know if you normalize it per era and park it's just a very, very good season - but best I could think of off the top of my head).

Also -- props to the group for not just one, but two Cheap Trick mentions... Criminally underrated band, IMO.

"Satisfaction" may be the Ruth -- but I think "Surrender" is the Johnny Mize of rock.

I would have a hard time coming up with a better American rock band (doing this to intentionally exclude Springsteen) album than either the self-titled debut or maybe In Color. The debut in particular -- the fact that it's the same band on the same album that's able to do both the almost punkish rock of "He's a Whore", while also the words-don't-fit-the-music beauty of "Oh, Candy".... good stuff.

99. JRVJ Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4028034)

78 & 81, I see your points, and see where we disagree, which is fine.

One thing I will say is that it seems to me that what I define as Rock & Roll, which was epitomized by the Stones better than anybody else and which had a tradition that ran together with or down from the Stones is in moribund condition.

The Beatles, having painted with a broader canvas to paint with, are certainly more influential than the Stones (*)

(*) One proviso: I think the Stones have been hurt by their longevity, in the sense that they've always been there. Even periods which are not particularly seen as great Stones periods produced great work, but the general media culture is not enamoured by the Stones as it used to be (since they are old men by now).

Though you do have to wonder if McCarney or Lennon would have been seen as the keeper of the Pirate code and the Pirate all others emulate look up to at 64 (when they were supposed to be, you know, dead), without actually knowing how to act.

100. theboyqueen Posted: January 03, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4028035)

They had a lot of rock in their earlier years. In 1963-64, it was pop but they also rocked harder than anyone else at that time. Compare "She Loves You" to "Walk Like a Man."

"She Loves You" sounds like Vivaldi compared with "Surfin Bird" or the Wailers, and then "The Witch"/"Keep A'Knockin" was 1964.

And then there is stuff like this and this, both of which are from 1956. The guitars on those Rock and Roll Trio records are absolutely filthy.

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