What are the HOF chances for Gary Sheffield?

Truthfully,in my mind, close to zero. At least by writers vote
He has the steroid cloud, was disliked by reporters, bounced among teams,has no hook to his story, and is most famous for saying idiot crap. Oh yeah, and he's an asshat. Not to mention that he comes up for election in 14, the backlog should be building and he'll be against Maddux and Glavine that year and e facing rough competition for years to come.

Sure, he has the numbers, but they are gonna be invalidated by a combination of era and roids. Unless the BBWAA radically shift their stance, I could see Sheff being one and done if everything falls wrong for him

And, not that it matters much, but, IIRC, wasn't he rated as the worst OF of all time by win shares are a similar system? But that one number will be used against him while the others are sloughed off to the side....

Agree. Sheffield reminds me of Dick Allen in a lot of ways. His best hope is a Vets Committee, but even then, does he have a lot of friends in baseball?

Nope. He burned bridges at every turn,often nuking them (i.e. Torre is a racist), including receiving the Allen-esque charge during his time with the Brewers of intentionally making errors in an attempt to get traded and piss off the fans.
I'm sure Harvey's could tell us more, fill in the blanks...

I love this line. Didn't care about the question that was asked to be perfectly honest(actually there wasn't a question asked, just a statement) but this little nugget from Bill is nice piece of information.

Like Roy Thomas, Adam Dunn, Rob Deer, Eddie Yost, Hal Lanier, Bill Bergen and Jim Thome, Sallee is a historical archetype, the most extreme player of a certain type. Whenever you sort players along any scale, there are a list of players who are always at one end of the scale or the other. Sallee is one of those players.

And again another point that he makes where he talks about measuring.

When I started counting stolen bases allowed by catchers, people used to tell me it was pointless because it didn't include the pitchers. When I proposed the Pythagorean method people told me it was pointless because it didn't measure a team's ability to win close games.

Every measurement starts out with naive assumptions or crude assumptions, and gradually refines them. You have to start somewhere.

I have to say that Bill still has it. He is still able to slog through the crap and point out things in a way that makes it easy to understand where he is coming from.

tora

i don't know what's meant by allen-esque

and it wasn't a charge of making errors intentionally. sheffield threw it out there (no pun intended) to show everyone how much he wanted out of milwaukee not realizing (being young and dumb) how this statement might boomerang on him. and there isn't tangible proof that he did it if you sift through his stats. it was a dumb thing said by a young player who was prone to saying really dumb things

some of sheffield's greatest hits:

--telling tom trebelhorn, the manager rickey henderson claims did the most to help his career as a young player, that he didn't know anything and to stop being nice to him because it wouldn't work
--accuse management of being racist because bill spiers got to play shortstop instead of sheffield
--tell dave parker, who was specifically signed to mentor sheffield, that he was old and washed up so he could take his advice and shut it up his fat behind
--after leaving town accuse robin young and paul molitor of being racists because they were constantly nagging him to 'run hard'

a lot of bbtfers, including those from wisconsin, are eager to give sheffield a pass because milwaukee has a long history of treating its black citizens poorly so of course sheffield was misunderstood

what a load of bs

the milwaukee fans were desperate for sheffield to succeed. anyone with half a brain could see he had the potential to be the next hank aaron. but he was young, did i mention he was young, and acted younger. sheffield wasn't actually 20 years when he was age 20. he was 14. maybe. he didn't know anything but posed as if he knew everything. and whenever anyone tried to help him understand that he didn't know everything he first mocked them, then confronted them and then ignored them. and when he ignored he sulked

and milwaukee fans only began to give sheffield a hard time when he baited them by being beyond visibly lazy on the ballfield. so if folks are going to toss out racism accusations the only thing milwaukee fans were guilty of was recognizing a player who was lollygagging.

what he needed was a firm hand. and by someone who knew how

instead sal bando, who couldn't manage a waffle house, traded him to san diego versus managing the situation.

the brewers had every reason to have gary sheffield in the major leagues at a young age because he was a major league talent as a young man. the brewers had every reason to move sheffield off shortstop because he was a terrible shortstop. the brewers had every reason to be patient because great talent with a big mouth can be managed if you have the gumption.

sal bando, and his syncophant phil garner, had no such gumption. too alleged tough guys were scared of a loudmouthed, immature, incredibly arrogant young man who didn't know sh8t from shinola

makes me want to puke

Thanks for that, HW. Always a joy to read your take on all things Brewers.

As an Angel fan I remember '82 as heartbreaking, but I loved watching the Brewers.

I lived in SoCal (10 years old at the time) and my Dad was in the car business. In '83 I think the Brewers came to Anaheim in April and Charlie Moore needed a car for the weekend series. My dad rented him a dealer car (maybe comped him) and Moore gave us 4 tix to each game and hooked me up with an autographed ball from the whole team - minus Yount, I think, and including Havey Kuene (the skipper - I can't spell his name for the life of me)...

I still have it and I ALWAYS loved watching that team hit.

Thanks Harveys. I knew you would have the low down. Great details...and my memory fits with yours. The Brewers had all the reasons in the world to want Sheff to succeed and none to want him to fail.

I said Allenesque because, IIRC, there are rumors and scuttlebutt against Allen that he tanked games too...

I was always fond of Sheffield's gold teeth.

Within five years other players would be hitting home runs, and, indeed, would be hitting almost as many home runs as Ruth would.

I understand what he's saying, and I have read this exact or very similar statement from him before, but it takes a pretty liberal reading of "almost" and "5 years" to be true. It took 9 years for someone (Hack Wilson) to come truly close to Ruth's 59. In the entire decade of the 20's, there were thirteen 40+ HR seasons, and Ruth 8 of them including the top 4 and 7 of the top 8. Yeah, Hornsby hit 42 once, and Klein hit 43 once, and Ott hit 42 once, but none of those totals are almost 54 or 59, and Klein and Ott hit theirs in 1929.

Ruth's league leading margins after 1921:

12
19
28
13
27
11
8
0 (tied)

Every once in a while, you state that there’s a solid argument that a certain pitcher is the greatest pitcher of all time. I think I’ve seen you say that of Roger Clemens & Tom Seaver. Do you think that there’s a solid argument that Pedro Martinez is the greatest starter of all time? Inning for inning, the guy very well might be.

How many people can you make a legitimate case for?

Young
Johnson
Alexander
Grove
Seaver
Clemens
Maddux

Anybody else?

Not saying they're the best 6 of all time--you could make a case that Mathewson is both top 5 but cannot be #1 since he can't pass Johnson or Alexander head to head.

People (some of them) would certainly argue for Koufax.

Yeah, well some people would argue for Ryan too.

Anybody else?

Spahn?

you would have some mention bob gibson

I would actually narrow the list down to four: Johnson, Grove, Maddux, Clemens.
If he'd found control earlier, Unit would be in the discussion. As is, for me, he's closer than Seaver or Gibson.
Young straddles too many eras (Pre-mound move back,Syndicate ball, the offensive explosion, the birth of the AL, Deadball)for me to even begin to evaluate effectively. Alex is darn fine, but he pales next to Johnson, so that eliminates him for me.

I should elaborate on the prior comment, this being BBTF and all:

Gibson led the league once in ERA, twice in ERA+,once in WHIP once in strikeouts and never led in K/9.

Seaver led the NL three times in ERA, thrice in ERA+, thrice in WHIP,five times in SO, thrice in H/9, six times in K/9. and three times in K/B.

Johnson on the other hand, and despite a late start, led the league in ERA four times, ERA+ six times (Including five straight), thrice in WHIP,nine(!) times in SO,six times in H/9,nine times in K/9 and once in K/BB.

Plus, he finished in the top three of CY voting nine times (Gibson did it twice, Seaver six times), had a better winning percentage and has a neutralized ERA(4,42 RPG) of 3.24 to Seavers 3.25 and Gibby's 3.16.


Top 5 War:

Seaver: 10.3,9.7,7.5,7.1,6.7 total 41.3
Gibson: 11.1,10.3,8.4,6.8,5.9 total 42.5
Johnson:10.4,9.8,8.8,8.3,8.1 total 45.4

Compared to their era, Johnson was the more dominant pitcher. He had a comparable peak and extended it for longer.

How many people can you make a legitimate case for?

Satchel Paige. And then, since many have claimed Smokey Joe Williams was better than Satchel, by the transitive property you could make a case for Smokey too.

Sheffield to me has a weird Teflon-esque quality. I need to come up with a name for it, because it's not quite Teflon: If you asked people in baseball whether Sheff was an a-hole, I do think most of them would immediately agree that he was. But it's kind of like "Manny being Manny" before everyone turned on Manny the past couple of years and started legitimately hating him. They simultaneously dislike Sheff and don't hold it against him that they dislike him. It's relatively unique. I guess Sheff commanded respect for "at least being honest" and for being a glowering tough guy (cf. Jim Rice on the latter point), while Manny ultimately didn't command respect because the perception was that he was a man-child. Anyway, I think Sheffield may just surprise a lot of people and nudge his way into the HOF. I do think it'll hurt him, though, that his value was basically all hitting¹ and, in the writers' minds, PED only affect hitting.

¹ He actually does have 253 SB, but his "image" is certainly not that of a baserunner.

Plus, he finished in the top three of CY voting nine times (Gibson did it twice, Seaver six times)

For a good portion of Gibson's career (prior to 1969), writers could vote for only one man. Under today's voting rules, he almost certainly would have gotten support in 1963, 1965, and 1966, but as it was, he and every other pitcher not named Koufax finished in a tie for second

James is both a phenomenal pioneer and overrated in his current line of pontification. He throws so many subjective judgements about society into his crime and sociological analysis that you can't find the kernels of true value that are there.

For a good portion of Gibson's career (prior to 1969), writers could vote for only one man. Under today's voting rules, he almost certainly would have gotten support in 1963, 1965, and 1966, but as it was, he and every other pitcher not named Koufax finished in a tie for second

But isn't that more evidence that Koufax is the better pitcher, and if he doesn't make the short list, then why should Gibson?

But isn't that more evidence that Koufax is the better pitcher, and if he doesn't make the short list, then why should Gibson?

No. The only thing it's evidence of is that Koufax had 3 outstanding years.

Yes, the progression of "greatest pitcher of all time" has to be Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Tom Seaver, and Roger Clemens. (They are listed in time order not necessarily the all-time ranking.)

Of course, Koufax and Pedro had their shining moments too and deserve some consideration.

The next tier includes Mathewson, Alexander, Feller, Spahn, Gibson, Maddux, and Randy Johnson are all on the periphery.

Well. ..it’s an argument you can make if you want to. It’s a “performance relative to era norms” argument, and those kind of arguments are prone to certain characteristic flaws, as are others. People—including me—will focus on Babe Ruth’s 1920/1921 home run seasons as the greatest home run efforts ever, because Ruth hit so many home runs relative to the era norms. It’s a little misleading; no one else had really caught on to the home run thing yet. Within five years other players would be hitting home runs, and, indeed, would be hitting almost as many home runs as Ruth would. Perhaps the greatest pitching performance ever was Dazzy Vance in 1924. Vance went 28-6, and struck out 262 in a season in which only one other pitcher in the league struck out one-third as many (Burleigh Grimes struck out 135). If Pedro was the greatest American League pitcher ever, was Randy Johnson in the same years the greatest National League pitcher ever, for the same reasons? Isn’t that a little suspicious? Pedro was an extremely dominant pitcher, and if you want to argue that he was the greatest ever, well. . .don’t let me stop you.

I don't understand how the Ruth and Vance examples are relevant. It's not like pitchers following Pedro suddenly began posting 220 or 240 or 290 ERA+s. James mentions Johnson, but not even Johnson was doing that. Johnson had the K numbers (geez, what a hell of a run in his mid to late 30s) and he was leading the league in ERA+ and pitching a lot of innings, but he wasn't putting up the historic ERA+s that Pedro was.

Maddux and Clemens were doing it at the same time as him or before; it's not like they suddenly "learned" something from him.

Sheffield is a HOFer in my book. He could flat out hit.

B-R shreds him on defense. Was he really that bad? Could a corner OF who looks competent possibly be costing his team that many runs? This seems the flip side of the Ichiro problem.

I'm not sure James understood the question about Pedro. The questioner seems to be arguing that Pedro has a claim on greatest starter of all-time from a quality standpoint but James turns it into an era argument -- related but not the same.

I've said before that I consider prime Pedro to be the _best_ pitcher I have ever seen (never saw Koufax). He had everything -- velocity, control, movement, guile and let you know if you were standing too close to the plate. I swear he would toy with batters -- "I know I could strike you out with a fastball but I'm gonna make you look foolsih on a changeup instead." So, "inning for inning", I think Pedro does belong in a conversation about the best ever.

Obviously once you start expanding out from peak, Pedro starts to slide down and by the time you get to career he's probably no longer in the discussion.

Who's the superior director, John Ford or Stanley Kubrick? Who's the bigger guitarist, Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton? What's the better TV show, "Arrested Development" or "The Simpsons"? Picasso or Bosch, Bill Hicks or George Carlin, James Dean or Paul Newman, THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE!

ray

gary sheffield was to defense what neville henderson was to diplomacy

he looked the part but when you got to brass tacks he stunk

gary sheffield was to defense what neville henderson was to diplomacy

No wonder Sheffield was crap in the field; I assume you're saying he always carried an umbrella.

I was all set to say, "Don't you mean Neville Chamberlain?" to HW, but then I looked up the name. Who knew there were two Nevilles behind the Munich agreement? Harvey's, obviously.

And obviously I saw "Neville" & automatically thought "Chamberlain."

*sigh*

Neville Henderson : Neville Chamberlain :: Gary Sheffield : ???

preserved

c'mon. sheffield trained with what player and said it did wonders to prolong his effectiveness of his career?

barry bonds

gary was just son of satan

//this is for laughs only.

Who's the bigger guitarist, Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton?

Clapton is six foot even, while Jimi was only five-ten.

Neville Henderson : Neville Chamberlain :: Gary Sheffield : ???

Gary Carter???

Who's the superior director, John Ford or Stanley Kubrick? Who's the bigger guitarist, Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton? What's the better TV show, "Arrested Development" or "The Simpsons"? Picasso or Bosch, Bill Hicks or George Carlin, James Dean or Paul Newman, THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE!

Ford
Hendrix and it's not even close
Simpsons
Picasso*
Carlin
Newman and it's not even close

*To be fair, I don't really know Bosch's stuff at all but that's never stopped me from choosing before!

going in that direction gary gilmore

Who's the superior director, John Ford or Stanley Kubrick? Who's the bigger guitarist, Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton? What's the better TV show, "Arrested Development" or "The Simpsons"? Picasso or Bosch, Bill Hicks or George Carlin, James Dean or Paul Newman, THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE!

Ford
Kurosawa
Hendrix and it's not even close
Segovia
Simpsons
Seinfeld
Picasso*
Diego Rivera
Carlin
I'll give you that one
Newman and it's not even close
Mifune or Gabin: Newman = Josh Gibson or Johnny Bench: Thurman Munson

going in that direction gary gilmore
That's another, er, winner

James Dean or Paul Newman

Both auditioned for East of Eden together. You can find film of them. Both were unknown actors at the time. James Dean got hired to play Cal, the role that made him a star.* Newman was turned down to play the role of the other brother, Aaron.

*Yeah, that's right. East of Eden made him a star and then came Rebel Without a Cause.

Andy, what are your favorite Kurosawa films? I've seen a bunch (all of which are supposedly Classics) and have had very mixed results. I love love love Yojimbo, loved Ran, enjoyed Seven Samurai, enjoyed Throne of Blood, disliked Hidden Fortress, hated Rashomon. Huh. I guess I've only seen samurai themed ones.

Rashoman is a great idea and an awful movie. Lots of people, self included, let the former outweigh the latter.

Andy, what are your favorite Kurosawa films? I've seen a bunch (all of which are supposedly Classics) and have had very mixed results. I love love love Yojimbo, loved Ran, enjoyed Seven Samurai, enjoyed Throne of Blood, disliked Hidden Fortress, hated Rashomon. Huh. I guess I've only seen samurai themed ones.

I've yet to see a Kurosawa I didn't like, but my particular favorites are High and Low, The Bad Sleep Well, Drunken Angel, Stray Dog, Red Beard, Throne of Blood, and The Seven Samurai. In fact I'd almost put every one of those films in my all-time top 50 list, and three of them (High and Low, The Bad Sleep Well and Red Beard) might make it into my top 10. There's no more amazing combination of movie talents than Kurosawa and Mifune, no matter what Morty might say about Jimmy Stewart and Frank Capra.

You'll notice that that above list has only two Samurai titles, plus two noirs (Stray Dog and Drunken Angel), two thrillers (High and Low and The Bad Sleep Well) and one general drama (Red Beard). I'm much more attuned to films set in the present, but that's also because I have to watch the Samurais more than once or twice before I can begin to appreciate them fully. I'm sure that once I watch them again a few times I'll like them even more than I do now.

If you want to start on the non-Samurais, you should begin with High and Low and The Bad Sleep Well. They're better than any crime drama Hitchcock ever did, which to me is saying a lot.

Rashoman is a great idea and an awful movie.

That's not how I remember it.

Zing!

FWIW my list matches Andy's almost exactly, with the exception that I couldn't get into The Bad Sleep Well at all when I rented it. I'd take that out and put in Yojimbo, which I also love love love.

Ikiru is also very good but a bit overrated - it would be towards the bottom of my personal top 10.

Great call on High and Low - one of my favorite Kurosawas, but it often gets overlooked. Favorite five - The Hidden Fortress, Ikiru, High and Low, Yojimbo, Seven Samurai. My favorite director, BTW...

Ford
Kurosawa

Did GB ask an open-ended question? No he did not.

Both auditioned for East of Eden together. You can find film of them. Both were unknown actors at the time. James Dean got hired to play Cal, the role that made him a star.* Newman was turned down to play the role of the other brother, Aaron.

And Shawn Estes once struck out Albert Pujols.


Actually I don't care about any of this but this is not an age for waffling. GB wanted choices made and, by gum, I made choices without any of this going off and making my own choices nonsense.

GB wanted choices made and, by gum, I made choices without any of this going off and making my own choices nonsense.

Best pitcher ever: Jack Morris or Catfish Hunter?

Catfish Hunter

James Dean was Pete Reiser, not Shawn Estes.

Best world leader ever: Hitler or Stalin?

Hendrix by far. The only guy I'd put up there with him is early Gilmour, or maybe Eddie Hazel. Certainly not Clapton.

the milwaukee fans were desperate for sheffield to succeed. anyone with half a brain could see he had the potential to be the next hank aaron. but he was young, did i mention he was young, and acted younger. sheffield wasn't actually 20 years when he was age 20. he was 14. maybe. he didn't know anything but posed as if he knew everything. and whenever anyone tried to help him understand that he didn't know everything he first mocked them, then confronted them and then ignored them. and when he ignored he sulked

The amazing thing is that he never changed. He remained a loudmouthed imbecile his whole career; and is still one, I'm sure. I would vote for Jack Morris before Sheffield for the hall of fame.....funny how every team that had him couldn't wait to get rid of him, for all his ability to hit. (and that was it. Horrible fielder, horrible person, horrible teammate.)

BTW Clapton never really wanted the guitar hero rep. He came out with 461 Ocean Boulevard after the Dominoes specifically to back off the 12 minute solo deal that was big in the early 70s..(ie, Alvin Lee, etc..)

Hendrix by far. The only guy I'd put up there with him is early Gilmour, or maybe Eddie Hazel. Certainly not Clapton.

Billy Gibbons.

Who's the bigger guitarist, Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton?

Howlin' Wolf was way bigger than those dudes.

Danny Tartabull: Sheffield-lite.

Leslie West was the biggest guitarist.

Best world leader ever: Hitler or Stalin?

Both ... which gives you the right answer in Steve Garvey.