No. Seriously. No. 3 or 4 potential games are being affected according to Blair. So what? Having the DH doesn't protect pitchers. Having the DH would also take a potential bench spot for NL teams. Having the DH would force teams to spend even more then they do on veteran talent as they are unlikely use a young player for the role until he is established.

I'm glad there is yet another thread on the dh. If only there could be a thread on the propensity of dh's to use steroids.

If only there could be a thread on the propensity of dh's to use steroids.

A Jim Rice DH getting his steroids from the national health.

A Jim Rice DH getting his steroids from the national health.

...and then selling them to Ichiro

You don’t like it? Go watch hockey, I hear it needs fans.

I already am. And I don't get why a Toronto Globe and Mail writer is noting that the sport needs fans when the local team is absolutely terrible and managed to sell out every game with absurd ticket prices.

Oh, and I can't watch hockey if July, dumbass.

Well, he's from Canada - maybe they have hockey in July. Somehow I don't think baseball is hurting for fans, even if they let the AL play by college rules.

DH stands for desginated I ####### hate it.

No. Never. Ever. Hell no.

How about this? Baseball is played for the benefit of us, the fans (well, technically, it most greatly benefits those who own baseball teams - but the fact remains that it is supported by a deep and widespread fanbase that likes to spend money and free time watching or talking about baseball). If most NL fans don't want to see the DH - and the impression I've always had is that they don't, unscientific yes - then there really is no other argument. No trump card for the AL imperialists to play. It's entertainment, and if NL fans think the game should look a certain way - we're a stubborn bunch - that's pretty much all she wrote.

Only if it means we can exterminate all the players who DH that first game and then change the rules back.

Collective bargaining will eventually get the players union this concession. The players union wants the NL DH. It will cost NL owners more, but the owners could use it to get concessions to bring down the cost of signing players picked in the amateur draft.

Will it? There's already not enough good old fat guys to DH in the AL and it would be a highly unpopular move in NL cities. I can't think of any NL fan who wants the DH.

NL fans can't just switch to hockey, the action would be far too exciting for them.

Collective bargaining will eventually get the players union this concession. The players union wants the NL DH. It will cost NL owners more, but the owners could use it to get concessions to bring down the cost of signing players picked in the amateur draft.

Well it's not like it adds a roster spot, so is the MLBPA really that concerned? Sure it makes gives a few players like done increased market value, but it's just taking a way a roster spot from another union member.

If most NL fans don't want to see the DH - and the impression I've always had is that they don't, unscientific yes - then there really is no other argument.

Of course there is another argument. Your's is frozen in time. A year after the NL adopts the DH, half of NL fans will realize how stupid they were to not want the DH. Five years after the crappy-hitting pitchers and the silly double-switch are gone, only a small minority of old crusty farts will insist that the DH was a bad idea for the NL.

And FWIW, Jeff Blair is right that having the DH does not increase game times. The AL has more run-scoring, but its games don't take any longer.

we can end this charade of its use/non-use in the World Series.

I actually agree with Blair on this point. But you don't solve that problem by forcing the National League to adopt the ####### DH. You solve it by making a rule that says the American League can enact all the silly rules it wants to, but when the two leagues face each other, the rules of real baseball will be used. All the time. No DH in interleague play, in the World Series, or in the All-Star Game. If the AL can live with those stipulations and they still want to keep the DH, then let them keep it.

Sure. And then over the next 50 years we can expand active rosters to 40 and introduce designated fielders and designated base runners. If I don't want to see pitchers hit, I sure as hell don't want to see Victor Martinez behind the plate or Yadier Molina limping around the bases.

NL fans can't just switch to hockey, the action would be far too exciting for them.

Hockey's OK, but nowhere near as fun as watching a decrepit fat man try to run without injuring himself.

Of course there is another argument. Yours is frozen in time. A year after the AL eliminates the DH, half of AL fans will realize how stupid they were to want the DH. Five years after the feeble old fat men and roster incentives promoting a 17-man bullpen are gone, only a small minority of young crusty farts will insist that the DH was a good idea for the AL.

Fixed That For You.

Hockey's OK, but nowhere near as fun as watching a decrepit fat man try to run without injuring himself.

I guess you'll just have to watch Carlos Lee, Dunn, Thome, Huff, Hinske, Delgado, Glaus, Helton, McCann, Howard, Fielder, Manny, LaRoche, Sandoval and Bengie Molina run the bases instead, now that Sean Casey, Mo Vaughn, Nevin, Baylor, Piazza, Kruk, Galarraga, Johnny Estrada, and Daryle Ward are retired.

What struck me most about the above excerpt was that the author could have been writing about any hot-button issue (DH, steroids, healthcare, war on terror, etc.), because his line of reasoning is just what you expect to find from so many in a discussion regarding any of these topics. He begins by stating:

So I’m going on the record right now as saying the DH not only ought to stay, the National League should be forced to adopt it.

Free choice is meaningless and discussion is futile. This is the way the writer wants it to be; therefore, all should be forced to live according to his rules whether they like it or not.

But what about those who don't agree and refuse to go along? Well, then:

You don’t like it? Go watch hockey, I hear it needs fans.

Love it or leave it, baby. The writer has decreed that this is the way it aughtta be, and all who disagree can go get lost.

Finally, what if expert opinion is against the writer's viewpoint? From the article:

At any rate, I take it as a good sign that Selig is comfortable examining the guts of the game ahead of the next round of collective bargaining. His critics get hung up on style -- the infamous All-Star Game tie, the whole weather thing in the World Series in Philadelphia two years ago -- but when it comes to the working of the game, he has usually erred on the proper side. Here's hoping he listens to what the committee says.

And if they ask for the DH to be pushed aside, here's hoping he thanks them for their time and declines.

See, Selig should do exactly what the committee suggests; providing, of course, the committee suggests what the writer wants them to suggest. Expert opinion is great and wonderful if it agrees with the writer's pre-set stance on the issue being discussed (in this case, the DH). However, should expert opinion disagree, then it obviously must be ignored.

So there you have it. Substitute any hot-button topic for DH and follow the above formula:

1) Insist that your position must be followed by all, whether they agree or not.

2) State that all who are opposed should just go live somewhere else.

3) Ignore all evidence that contradicts your viewpoint.

The only thing missing are the ad hominen attacks.

DB

I already am. And I don't get why a Toronto Globe and Mail writer is noting that the sport needs fans when the local team is absolutely terrible and managed to sell out every game with absurd ticket prices.

Toronto's a funny place. They have an awful, terrible, worthless hockey team, in a league that is struggling...but probably the strongest fan base in the league.
And a mediocre baseball team in a very strong league with a fan shortage.

I guess that doesn't make Toronto a "funny" place so much as it makes it a "Canadian" place.

By the way, I was looking up hockey memories on youtube, the NHL is far less vigilant than MLB in taking its clips down off of youtube. You can pretty much find any memorable play of the past 20 years on there. I'm still working through the long list of "Leaf _________ scores overtime OT goal to beat Ottawa" videos.

Of course there is another argument. Your's is frozen in time. A year after the NL adopts the DH, half of NL fans will realize how stupid they were to not want the DH.

5 years of living in an American League city and following them did not make me like the DH, cool as Chili Davis was.
"Ya hafta play the field if ya wanna hit*" is ingrained in my soul.

*OK, pinch-hitting allows you 1 plate appearance without playing in the field. That's a reasonable compromise -- you pay a price for not playing the field.

Maybe if we begin savagely beating DHs this whole experiment will fade away. We'll have to start young, with the children. So get down to your local high school, little league, legion, etc., and begin flogging DHs. It's for their own good. We do it because we love them.

you pay a price for not playing the field.

How about the DH is allowed, but the opposing team gets to pick a fan from the crowd who gets one shot, to punch the DH as hard as he can.

Let's compromise. How about both leagues get a DH and make the pitcher bat. We can get the worst of both worlds!

Or how about, have a DH, but he must hit for the 1B.

1B would be about as useful as elephants in xiangqi!

1B would be about as useful as elephants in xiangqi!

Hilarious.

As an aside - I don't recall Blair spouting this before? Has this been a crusade for him or is he just going for the attention?

I don't recall this from Blair before either. I'm just going to assume that this is a matter of a columnist needing to churn out something to meet a deadline, and deliberately picking a topic that'll be sure to get attention.

I think everyone knows that fans are split on the issue and it doesn't matter what sportswriters think (unless they agree with you). What I really want to know is what GM's think about the DH rule? Would AL GM's vote to eliminate it, if given the chance? Would NL GM's vote to add it, if given the chance? But I wouldn't be surprised if either league would vote to switch, but there is no way anyone makes such a major change without getting the teams onboard. Having Bud or some committee dictate it is stupid. What I want is a poll of GMs. It might actually be fairly easy for a connected baseball writer or two to do in Spring training....they probably end up talking to a fair portion of the GMs anyway. Hopefully that either puts the issue behind us for a while or gives a reasonable basis to actually talk about making a change.

Would AL GM's vote to eliminate it, if given the chance?

Based on how they've treated it in Seattle since Edgar's retirement, I'm pretty sure that collective believes that it was already eliminated.

I think both leagues should switch.

I think both leagues should switch.

That would be fantastic, if just to see how the fanatics on both sides of the issue responded.

I guess you'll just have to watch Carlos Lee, Dunn, Thome, Huff, Hinske, Delgado, Glaus, Helton, McCann, Howard, Fielder, Manny, LaRoche, Sandoval and Bengie Molina run the bases instead, now that Sean Casey, Mo Vaughn, Nevin, Baylor, Piazza, Kruk, Galarraga, Johnny Estrada, and Daryle Ward are retired.

Carlos Lee, while terrible with the glove and fat as a bear in August, is capable of running the bases without injuring himself. And any gains that his team accrues through the strength of his hitting are counterbalanced by his lack of merits in other areas, which is as it should be. No free lunch.

As opposed to, say, late-career Edgar Martinez, the Greatest DH Ever, who was so fragile that the Mariners routinely benched him in interleague games like a pretty pretty princess, since the alternative was to have him shatter like glass when a throw struck his glove.

That would be fantastic, if just to see how the fanatics on both sides of the issue responded.

Can't speak for any other fanatics, but if both switched, I'd pick an AL team (probably the closest non-Cleveland franchise) and start rooting for them instead.

I don't like DH ball. It holds no appeal for me, and is a poor substitute for real baseball.

AL and NL baseball is like regular and HD TV to me.

I recognize there's a difference, but I'm not nearly as perceptive as others to the difference. To me it's just TV/Baseball with superficial differences that don't really touch on the main reasons I watch either of them.

Hey, the Cardinals need somewhere to rotate in Mark McGwire and Jim Edmonds.