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Monday, January 09, 2012

Blasts from the Past

With the Hall of Fame results being announced today, we decided to take a trip down memory lane and dig up some old scouting reports from the Baseball America archives on some of the ballot’s notable candidates. . .

8. Barry Larkin, ss, 21, 5-11, 175, R-R
Larkin looked right at home in AA, hitting .267 for Vermont. He didn’t show power (one home run in 255 at-bats), but that will come. The key for him was just getting his feet on the ground, and he was not overpowered by the high level of competition (21 strikeouts in 255 at-bats). He will have good power for a shortstop.

6. Edgar Martinez, 3b, 25, 5-11, 175, R-R
Martinez’s discipline will produce runs. He’s averaged 70 RBIs the last four years. In the field, he’s solid, with good reactions and the soft hands of a middle infielder.

Fred McGriff, Bernie Williams and Jeff Bagwell also profiled.

Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: January 09, 2012 at 04:27 PM | 28 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, blue jays, braves, hall of fame, mariners, padres, reds, yankees

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   1. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 09, 2012 at 07:03 PM (#4032578)
I love stuff like this.

In fact, he should hit enough that he could be moved to third base, a good possibility considering (Kurt) Stillwell is on the verge of making it to the big leagues.


The Reds at that time had a borderline HOFer in Dave Concepcion (granted at the end of his career), a future HOFer in Barry Larkin, a future All-Star in Kurt Stilwell, and a future serviceable major league utility player in Jeff Treadway all in the organization playing shortstop at that time. Not too shabby.

Didn't Gammons rave about Bagwell when he was a Red Sox farmhand or am I misremembering?

I had no idea Edgar was Carmelo's cousins.
   2. SG Posted: January 09, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4032582)
Didn't Gammons rave about Bagwell when he was a Red Sox farmhand or am I misremembering?


When he wasn't raving about Jeff Sellers.
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 09, 2012 at 07:16 PM (#4032589)
And Mike Crudale.
   4. Ron J Posted: January 09, 2012 at 07:38 PM (#4032611)
#1 Treadway was a big-time prospect. (Though now that I look more closely ... well serviceable was his floor)

Bagwell's minor league stats don't look awesome until you consider where he played. Perhaps the toughest place to hit in organized baseball. (I think only Pat Lennon put up stats that you could really compare to Bagwell's) The Gammons/Bagwell connection came from Gammons scanning the projections in the Stats handbook and noticing that Bagwell had the highest projected batting average in the NL (As James noted though it wasn't really a prediction of a batting title. He was after all listed in the section labeled "These Guys Can Play And Might Get A Shot")
   5. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 09, 2012 at 07:39 PM (#4032613)
This stuff is great. Fred McGriff strikes out too much and can't hit a curve, but he's a hard worker and one day he could be up there with Willie Upshaw.
   6. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 09, 2012 at 07:42 PM (#4032616)
6. Edgar Martinez, 3b, 25, 5-11, 175, R-R
He's the cousin of San Diego's power-hitting Carmelo Martinez,

mmmm--I never knew that
   7. SG Posted: January 09, 2012 at 08:03 PM (#4032639)
2. Bernie Williams, of, Albany
Williams, 22, was the No. 6 prospect in the Eastern League last year. He has all the tools, and is a switch-hitter with some power from both sides of the plate. He also covers a lot of ground in center field and has a strong arm.


Young Bernie did cover a lot of ground, but he NEVER had a strong arm, did he?
   8. Perry Posted: January 09, 2012 at 08:26 PM (#4032658)
The Reds at that time had a borderline HOFer in Dave Concepcion (granted at the end of his career), a future HOFer in Barry Larkin, a future All-Star in Kurt Stilwell, and a future serviceable major league utility player in Jeff Treadway all in the organization playing shortstop at that time. Not too shabby.


The Reds farm system in the mid 80s was ridiculous, popping out the likes of Larkin, Stillwell, Eric Davis, Paul O'Neill, Tom Browning, Kal Daniels, Chris Sabo, Tracy Jones, Joe Oliver, Rob Dibble, Norm Charlton, and Nick Esasky in a very small window of time, before Marge Schott tore it all down.
   9. Bruce Markusen Posted: January 09, 2012 at 09:55 PM (#4032721)
Williams had a strong arm his first season or two for the Yankees. Then he hurt it somehow, not sure whether it was the shoulder or the elbow, and he couldn't throw well after that. The arm just never came back.
   10. Walt Davis Posted: January 10, 2012 at 01:25 AM (#4032875)
I never knew it either ... and they're giving Carmelo short shrift there I think. No, he was no Edgar but a 112 OPS+ through age 27 -- well, better than Konerko. :-) Also 404 BB to just 528 K ain't bad at all. He K'd in only 15.7% of his PAs ... not as good as Edgar's 14% but not much worse than league average. And 8 WAR at ages 23-24 (and almost nothing else). He was a pretty promising guy.

And of course I briefly thought he was going to be a God. In his Sept callup in 83 he started 341/364/707 with 5 HR in his first 44 PA. Then somebody had the bright idea to throw him a curveball (188/220/313 with an HR on the last day of the season). He formed the basis of my pet theory that teams almost seem to help each other -- "we'll throw your rookie nothing but fastballs for his first 50-100 PA so you can tell whether he can at least handle an ML fastball." (See, possibly, Yonder Alonso.)

Knowing the Cubs, Carmelo probably told them how good his cousin was but they didn't listen.
   11. Walt Davis Posted: January 10, 2012 at 01:27 AM (#4032878)
So, best cousins in baseball?

Bondseses -- father and son
Aarons -- brothers ... OK, you can use the DiMaggios or something :-)
Gooden/Sheffield -- uncle/nephew

EDIT:
Kekich/Peterson -- wife swappers
Piazza/Leiter -- partners
   12. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: January 10, 2012 at 02:05 AM (#4032899)
Carl and Joe Mays, with their 84-year age difference, are my favorite MLB cousin duo.
   13. KT's Pot Arb Posted: January 10, 2012 at 12:00 PM (#4033112)
written by Tracy Ringolsby


Tracy put in some yeoman work back in the day...
   14. Nasty Nate Posted: January 10, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4033132)
So, best cousins in baseball?


Mariano and Ruben Rivera?
   15. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: January 10, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4033168)
I don't know if they still have it but in the concourses at Turner Field the Braves had the scouting reports for some of their prominent players of recent/semi-recent vintage. I remember seeing Murphy and Glavine specifically.
   16. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 10, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4033222)
So, best cousins in baseball?


Aaron Rowand-James Shields
   17. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 10, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4033230)
Larry Bowa and Nick Johnson
   18. kthejoker Posted: January 10, 2012 at 01:29 PM (#4033232)
If we allow for cousins-in-law, Babe Ruth and Johnny Mize.

For cousins, I think it's Jesse Burkett and Jack Glasscock.
   19. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 10, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4033236)
Kal Daniels was a GREAT hitter. I saw him as a 20 year old in the Eastern League and he led the league in OBP/Slugging. Paul O'Neill was a year older teammate of Daniels and Paul didn't come CLOSE to Daniels output.

I am pretty sure Daniels was the youngest guy in the league.

His knees were sh*t so he was out of baseball before he was 30.
   20. flournoy Posted: January 10, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4033245)
I think Fred McGriff / Charles Johnson / Terry McGriff wins the cousin battle.
   21. Rants Mulliniks Posted: January 10, 2012 at 02:06 PM (#4033274)
Kal Daniels was a GREAT hitter. I saw him as a 20 year old in the Eastern League and he led the league in OBP/Slugging. Paul O'Neill was a year older teammate of Daniels and Paul didn't come CLOSE to Daniels output.

I am pretty sure Daniels was the youngest guy in the league.


....and he stole 43 bases with only 11 CS that year. Hard to imagine what he would have turned out to be without the bad knees, he could hit in his sleep.
   22. rlc Posted: January 10, 2012 at 03:43 PM (#4033388)
they're giving Carmelo short shrift there I think. No, he was no Edgar but [...] He was a pretty promising guy.


Plus, he was one third of the referent of my favorite baseball nickname of the past 30 years - The Three Gorditos.
   23. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: January 10, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4033448)
Daniels could hit righties in his sleep, at least. Huge splits. Still, was my favorite player in baseball for a while.

Who were the other Gorditos (I like that, btw)?

ballfan: In his day? Has that ended?

   24. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 10, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4033468)
Who were the other Gorditos (I like that, btw)?

you'd never guess
   25. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: January 10, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4033486)
Carl and Joe Mays, with their 84-year age difference, are my favorite MLB cousin duo.


Does anyone know the genealogy involved here?

I'm fascinated by extreme generational gaps (like how President John Tyler, born 1790, has two living grandsons) and would love to know the details. Wikipedia calls Joe a "distant cousin", but only cites the BBRef statement that they're cousins, which I usually take to mean first cousins unless there's some form of qualification.

If they're first cousins -- If Joe's father was 60 when he Joe was born in 1975, and Joe's father's sibling was 18 when Carl was born in 1891, that's still a 42 year difference between the two siblings. That happens, but it's unusual, and even more unusual that those two siblings would then crank out kids at extremely young and old ages, respectively. Did something like this happen? Or are Joe and Carl simply second cousins, or cousins twice removed, or something equally uninteresting?
   26. Randy Jones Posted: January 10, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4033524)
It only says "distant cousin" though. It could be like how Queen Elizabeth II is the first cousin seven times removed(or something like that) of George Washington.
   27. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: January 10, 2012 at 06:32 PM (#4033602)
It only says "distant cousin" though. It could be like how Queen Elizabeth II is the first cousin seven times removed(or something like that) of George Washington.


Well, that's my question. Joe Mays' BBRef page just says "cousin". His Wikipedia page says "distant cousin", but cites the BBRef page as evidence. That looks like a Wikipedia contributor made a guess that they had to be distant cousins based on the age difference, without actually knowing anything.

So I'd like to know if they are actually first cousins. Like I mentioned in #25, the guy who was President from 1841-1845 (and who was born during George Washington's first term) has two living grandchildren, so this sort of thing is possible.
   28. Walt Davis Posted: January 11, 2012 at 12:34 AM (#4033851)
Aaron Rowand-James Shields

C'mon man, the opening bid was Edgar and Carmelo Martinez. :-)

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