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Thursday, April 23, 2009

Bloggin’ baseball: The Hardball Times, for hardcore fans - USATODAY.com

First, support these guys; they do great work. Second, I think a Google search of some of our friends there might turn up some disturbing basement photos. :)

Do your contributors get paid?

We don’t pay per article or per word, but at the end of the year we take any profits we make from advertising and book sales and divide it up between the staff. In the past, that has yielded a few hundred bucks for guys who are week-in, week-out contributors.

Do any of them live in their parents’ basements?

Not that I know of, though I do know that one of our writers is a devoted Dungeons & Dragons player. I won’t name names, but a Google search of his name could turn up some interesting results.

 

Jim Furtado Posted: April 23, 2009 at 12:24 PM | 164 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: online, sabermetrics

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   1. Kid Charlemagne Posted: April 23, 2009 at 01:59 PM (#3149256)
OK, as a devoted Dungeons & Dragons player myself, I gots to know...
   2. Nineto Lezcano hits the pinata for the candy (CW) Posted: April 23, 2009 at 02:13 PM (#3149278)
It's probably THT's worst-kept secret, Kid C - it'd be me. I also do Star Trek geekery and can at least fake Star Wars and LOTR geekery upon request.

EDIT: Oh, and I protect the Lounge from the scourge of the undead. It's probably my life's most important work. GGC alone is like a full-time job here.
   3. Gamingboy Posted: April 23, 2009 at 02:17 PM (#3149287)
I also do Star Trek geekery


Dear sir, what do you think of the upcoming Abrams sort-of reboot/sort-of prequel/sort-of sequel?
   4. Kid Charlemagne Posted: April 23, 2009 at 02:21 PM (#3149291)
Cool, CW. Do you frequent any of the more popular online D&D;sites (I'm a long-time partipant and moderator over at ENWorld)?
   5. AROM Posted: April 23, 2009 at 02:29 PM (#3149303)
Is it fair to include humans and elves on career leaderboards? An elf doesn't even have to be all that good to put up counting stats that far surpass Rose, Bonds, Aaron, and Young thanks to their lifespans.
   6. Kid Charlemagne Posted: April 23, 2009 at 02:42 PM (#3149328)
Yeah, but elves are all slap hitters. Imagine forest cities full of Emmanuel Burrisses.
   7. Nineto Lezcano hits the pinata for the candy (CW) Posted: April 23, 2009 at 02:56 PM (#3149354)
The new Trek movie? I'm, uh, embarassingly excited about it. I'm trying really hard to figure out why they aren't trying to send people like me to the poorhouse with more toy and other ancilliary tie-ins. (I'd, uh, I'd settle for a few schematics. Srsly.)

I lurk at ENWorld from time to time - there were (probably still are) some fantastic RHoD maps over there I used as handouts and as battlemats when I ran that campaign. I don't do 4e, so I've scaled back some on my reading.

Concur on elves being slap hitters. And this may surprise you, but they're not even good at making contact - you apply your STR bonus to all melee attacks, and elves have a -2 STR penalty. And sure, they live longer, but you can't draft one until they're 100 years old, which offsets a lot of it.
   8. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 02:59 PM (#3149360)
Man, Elven baseball cards would have to be HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE.

Or probably just inscripted with tiny little magic runes.
   9. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:00 PM (#3149361)
Hitting a baseball would absolutely be dexterity based, melee attacks be damned. It's more of a saving throw based on reflexes. Elves would all be little Ichiros.
   10. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:00 PM (#3149365)
Btw, Kid Charlemagne would be a great boxing nickname.
   11. Kid Charlemagne Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:04 PM (#3149375)
Weapon Finesse, CW, don't leave your tastefully decorated treehouse without it...
   12. Nineto Lezcano hits the pinata for the candy (CW) Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:05 PM (#3149379)
A baseball should have an AC of 14, unless you want to try to give it a dex bonus for being in motion. Swinging a club (which is what a bat is) is a melee attack. This is not ambiguous in the least.
   13. Nineto Lezcano hits the pinata for the candy (CW) Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:06 PM (#3149381)
Weapon Finesse, CW, don't leave your tastefully decorated treehouse without it...


Okay, fine, but it's not like an elf gets a lot of feats to begin with.
   14. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:07 PM (#3149383)
Presented without explanation:

1. CF Elf, rogue
2. 2B Half-Elf, ranger
3. 1B Half-Orc, fighter
4. LF Human, paladin
5. RF Half-Orc, cleric
6. 3B Human, ranger
7. C Dwarf, fighter
8. SS Elf, wizard
9. SP Human, rogue

CL Elf, fighter

Manager: Halfling, rogue

GM: Gnome, expert
   15. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:08 PM (#3149385)
I haven't played since 1st edition.

Thieves are now "Rogues"? Lame.
   16. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:08 PM (#3149387)
Hitting a baseball is more like fending off a sprung arrow trap. Or dragon's breath. It's a saving throw.

You get into power, sure, that's strength-based. But you're not going to convince me making contact is a strength-based skill. It's dexterity.
   17. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:15 PM (#3149398)
I mean really, if you were DMing it...

"You enter a large space. There's a box painted on the ground ahead of you. Two masked men await."

"I approach them."

"One looks at you, the other pays you no heed."

"I step into the painted box."

"A missile comes hurling at you! Roll for save!"

"Crikey!"
   18. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:21 PM (#3149415)
Btw, Kid Charlemagne would be a great boxing nickname.


Or a Steely Dan song title.
   19. Nineto Lezcano hits the pinata for the candy (CW) Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:29 PM (#3149429)
Hitting a baseball is more like fending off a sprung arrow trap. Or dragon's breath. It's a saving throw.

You get into power, sure, that's strength-based. But you're not going to convince me making contact is a strength-based skill. It's dexterity.


If you want to Rule Zero it, I have no problem with it. But rules as written, you're hitting something with a club, and that's a melee attack. I don't need to convince you of anything.
   20. Nineto Lezcano hits the pinata for the candy (CW) Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:33 PM (#3149436)
And since we're on the subject, I'd really like to point out my initial response to this article.
   21. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:34 PM (#3149439)
If some mainstream hack columnist was looking for some tidy stereotypes with which to impugn statheads, then this thread would be straight from Heaven.

Not that I'm judging. I spent an alarming percentage of my youth playing AD&D;. I could still burn an hour or two if I ran across one of those Dungeon Master's books.
   22. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:35 PM (#3149440)
I don't need to convince you of anything.


Yes you do. These are teh internetz. Check your manual.
   23. rfloh Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:36 PM (#3149442)
13. CW treats quantity like a vampire treats blood Posted: April 23, 2009 at 11:06 AM (#3149381)

Weapon Finesse, CW, don't leave your tastefully decorated treehouse without it...



Okay, fine, but it's not like an elf gets a lot of feats to begin with.


Yes, but, if you are doing melee attacks with your strength, instead of dexterity, you will likely need to wear heavy armour to protect yourself from being hit. Which results in a movement speed penalty. Lots of GIDPs and caught stealings. Whereas a dextrous elf does not need armour. Combine being able to move without a movement speed penalty, with a feat like Spring Attack, not getting attacked when moving in combat, and you get a great baserunner.

Though some would of course claim that baserunning is grossly overrated.
   24. Nineto Lezcano hits the pinata for the candy (CW) Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:41 PM (#3149451)
Yes, but, if you are doing melee attacks with your strength, instead of dexterity, you will likely need to wear heavy armour to protect yourself from being hit. Which results in a movement speed penalty. Lots of GIDPs and caught stealings. Whereas a dextrous elf does not need armour. Combine being able to move without a movement speed penalty, with a feat like Spring Attack, not getting attacked when moving in combat, and you get a great baserunner.

Though some would of course claim that baserunning is grossly overrated.


Baseball uniform and pads would probably count as padded armor. All an elf gets is the ability to get out of the way of a few extra HBP.

And Spring Attack doesn't give you extra movement. You'd want a feat like Run, I guess.
   25. TFTIO just doesn't have the passion for labels Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:44 PM (#3149461)
Though some would of course claim that baserunning is grossly overrated.

Well, what's a human-sized creature's movement, anyway? The problem here is that the round is about 6 seconds; any human-sized creature will be able to go 90' in a round. So there's no way to model baserunning that I can see. A dwarf will be just as good on the bases as a wood elf.
   26. Kid Charlemagne Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:46 PM (#3149463)
Elf Monk. When he gets high enough level, he can do the flurry of blows and strike out on one pitch like Bugs Bunny. But he'd be quick to first.
   27. Nineto Lezcano hits the pinata for the candy (CW) Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:47 PM (#3149467)
Well, what's a human-sized creature's movement, anyway? The problem here is that the round is about 6 seconds; any human-sized creature will be able to go 90' in a round. So there's no way to model baserunning that I can see. A dwarf will be just as good on the bases as a wood elf.


Nothing a table couldn't solve. Throwing out a runner is a reflex saving throw against a DC set by the runner's movement speed.
   28. TFTIO just doesn't have the passion for labels Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:48 PM (#3149471)
Nothing a table couldn't solve.

As good a eulogy for Gygax as could be written.
   29. rfloh Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:48 PM (#3149473)
Baseball uniform and pads would probably count as padded armor. All an elf gets is the ability to get out of the way of a few extra HBP.

And Spring Attack doesn't give you extra movement. You'd want a feat like Run, I guess.


Spring attack allows you to move without triggering attacks of opportunity (people attempting to pick you off / throw you out). If have a dex based char with spring attack, against someone bogged down with heavy armour, with your high initiative from high dex, you can move in, attack, then move out.
   30. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:49 PM (#3149476)
Aha! A reflex saving throw and not a missile attack targeted at the first baseman's glove? ;)
   31. Nineto Lezcano hits the pinata for the candy (CW) Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:49 PM (#3149477)
So of course you'll want Boots of Striding and Springing.
   32. Nineto Lezcano hits the pinata for the candy (CW) Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:51 PM (#3149482)
Aha! A reflex saving throw and not a missile attack targeted at the first baseman's glove? ;)


It's a question of the throw being on time, not accurate. I suppose you could do it in three parts:

* Reflex to beat the timing of the runner
* Thrown object attack roll to get the throw on target
* Optional reflex save by first baseman to catch ball if the throw was off target.
   33. JGLB, God's Own Favorite Sucker Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:56 PM (#3149495)
EDIT: Oh, and I protect the Lounge from the scourge of the undead. It's probably my life's most important work. GGC alone is like a full-time job here.


I like to think I do my part in educating Loungers of the the coming Zombocalypse.
   34. TFTIO just doesn't have the passion for labels Posted: April 23, 2009 at 03:57 PM (#3149497)
I am available if needed for anti-zombie action.
   35. Craig Calcaterra Posted: April 23, 2009 at 04:07 PM (#3149511)
If some mainstream hack columnist was looking for some tidy stereotypes with which to impugn statheads, then this thread would be straight from Heaven.


Jeez, I'm a non-mainsteam hack blogger who actually knows and works with some of these people and it's all I can do not to start writing about this thread in terms that not everyone here would find flattering.

/um, yeah, I played a little D&D;once. Sue me.
   36. Kid Charlemagne Posted: April 23, 2009 at 04:10 PM (#3149518)
/um, yeah, I played a little D&D;once. Sue me.

Nice try, Calcaterra! But I made my INT check to remember you're a lawyer. Tricksy.
   37. kthejoker Posted: April 23, 2009 at 04:12 PM (#3149521)
This is why we invented the Internet.
   38. RJ in TO Posted: April 23, 2009 at 04:33 PM (#3149546)
This is why we invented the Internet.

Strange. I always thought that Rule 34 indicated that the Internet was created for pron.
   39. OsunaSakata Posted: April 23, 2009 at 04:35 PM (#3149548)
Your 2018 Champion Isengard Raiders

Solonor's Groovy Computer Baseball League
   40. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: April 23, 2009 at 04:35 PM (#3149551)
Calling porn pron? Now that's geeky.
   41. RJ in TO Posted: April 23, 2009 at 04:49 PM (#3149569)
Calling porn pron? Now that's geeky.

I spend most of my waking hours logged into this site, at least when I'm not on Fark.

Geeky is probably an extremely fair (and accurate) description.
   42. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 23, 2009 at 04:55 PM (#3149581)
So who is going to take this to its logical conclusion and start producing character sheets for their favourite baseball players.
You know, STR/WIS/INT/DEX/CON/CHR values, skills, feats, powers, weapons (Puljos' +3 Club of Striking)?
Come on, people! Someone killing time at home has got to get on this!
   43. Chris Dial Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:00 PM (#3149589)
I'd have to say that hitting a baseball would be THAC-4 or so. Saving throws wouldn't work - not granualar enough. You'd have to use percentiles. More like Magic Resistance than a d20.

And obviously, the required uniform is *leather*. Flash it.
   44. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:05 PM (#3149596)
THAC? Hey Chris, forever ago called, they want their complicated combat system back.
   45. RJ in TO Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:10 PM (#3149599)
THAC? Hey Chris, forever ago called, they want their complicated combat system back.

I was raised on that complicated system (and recently discovered a box in my basement filled with books detailing that complicated system). You shall not badmouth the complicated system.

EDIT: An exception shall be made to allow the badmouthing of the 1st edition handling of psionics.
   46. zenbitz Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:19 PM (#3149611)
No, this is complicated:


http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showbook&bookid=2973
   47. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:25 PM (#3149618)
EDIT: An exception shall be made to allow the badmouthing of the 1st edition handling of psionics.

Did anyone ever use psionics? It seemed like it was an afterthought of Gary Gygax's, or something he threw out there and never really developed.
   48. Nineto Lezcano hits the pinata for the candy (CW) Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:25 PM (#3149619)
An exception shall be made to allow the badmouthing of the 1st edition handling of psionics.


Players were never meant to HAVE psionics. It was supposed to be a fun little toy for the DM to pull out when he wanted to screw over his players without having to resort to actual fiat. There was no reason to make it a coherent, workable system. In 3E it just became an alternate magic system based on MP.
   49. RJ in TO Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:28 PM (#3149621)
Did anyone ever use psionics? It seemed like it was an afterthought of Gary Gygax's, or something he threw out there and never really developed.

I tried on a couple occasions. In addition of seeming like an afterthought, it played like an afterthought, and (even by the standards of AD&D;) added far too much in the way of complication, while adding very little in terms of entertainment value.

Basically, it was mostly good for creating a source of endless arguments.

Players were never meant to HAVE psionics. It was supposed to be a fun little toy for the DM to pull out when he wanted to screw over his players without having to resort to actual fiat.

Suddenly, the system makes sense, and was apparently a massive success.
   50. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:29 PM (#3149622)
I still remember the little sketch in the 1st Edition dungeon master's guide of a Mind Flayer attacking a little group of adventurers.

EDIT: The 1st Edition dungeon master's guide was a fun read. It was more a rambling dissertation on medieval role playing than anything else.
   51. Chris Dial Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:30 PM (#3149625)
Really? "Complicated" in a game like AD&D;? No, THAC charts weren't complicated. try solving encumbrance.
   52. Chris Dial Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:31 PM (#3149627)
Did anyone ever use psionics? It seemed like it was an afterthought of Gary Gygax's, or something he threw out there and never really developed.
We rolled for them. Soemtimes someone had them, but you dare not use them due to the holy crap the DM could unleash on you. I regularly use "Tower of Iron Will" these days. IRL.
   53. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:34 PM (#3149630)
My group did the same as Dial. No full-time psionics, but we rolled for wild powers. Occasionally someone came up with a doozy.
   54. Chris Dial Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:41 PM (#3149642)
Right. And as DM, I had an artifact once. It made the guy crazy.

Seriously, portable hole and a bag of holding - that's all you need, quite frankly.
   55. phredbird Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:42 PM (#3149643)
seriously, this whole thread is a put-on, right?
   56. RJ in TO Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:43 PM (#3149645)
Seriously, portable hole and a bag of holding - that's all you need, quite frankly.

It's either that, or just ignore the encumberance rules, which is usually what we did.
   57. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:43 PM (#3149647)
I never thought that THAC0 was that complicated. You roll the dice, apply modifiers, and look up the result on a table.

I always made for a terrible DM - I continually got bogged down in details ("when's the last time your character ate something?","How can I reflect the possibility of broken or damaged weapons or armor, and what are the effects of using them?","Why are there six orcs hanging around in a room, doing nothing?"), that players didn't care about.
   58. RJ in TO Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:43 PM (#3149648)
seriously, this whole thread is a put-on, right?

Apparently you've massively underestimated the nerdly potential and leanings of the average BTF attendee.
   59. Chris Dial Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:45 PM (#3149653)
It's either that, or just ignore the encumberance rules, which is usually what we did.
Of course. Can you imagine carrying that much gold back from teh dungeon? Sometimes we'd make characters leave the gold or make a handful of trips.

My joke about portable hole and bag f holding was something else entirely though.
   60. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:45 PM (#3149654)
Seriously, portable hole and a bag of holding - that's all you need, quite frankly.

That's another reason I was an unpopular DM - I was really, really stingy with magic items. My thinking was that they should be extraordinarily rare, like two per party.
   61. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:45 PM (#3149655)
No, THAC0 is not that complicated in a quantum mechanics sense. It is that complicated when compared to the elegant and imminently more sensible approach developed in the third edition.

I've played more games with THAC0 than without. I even like saying "Tha-koh" outloud. But it's a goofy system that shouldn't have made it into the most popular RPG system on the Urth.
   62. Chris Dial Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:45 PM (#3149656)
I never thought that THAC0 was that complicated. You roll the dice, apply modifiers, and look up the result on a table.
Today's kids don't hae the attention sp
   63. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:47 PM (#3149660)
Strat-o-Matic/Diamond Player to D&D player: Nerd!

D&D player: Um.
   64. RJ in TO Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:47 PM (#3149661)
My joke about portable hole and bag f holding was something else entirely though.

Ah. You're referencing the placement of one into the other, to cause a hole between whatever realm the players are currently in and the Astral Plain (thus bypassing the whole psionics mess)?
   65. Chris Dial Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:47 PM (#3149662)
It is that complicated when compared to the elegant and imminently more sensible approach developed in the third edition.
I'll disagree, Peter.
   66. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:47 PM (#3149663)
It is that complicated when compared to the elegant and imminently more sensible approach developed in the third edition.

What do they do now? I admit I've never even seen a third edition book.
   67. rfloh Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:47 PM (#3149664)
Dewey, Local Boy and Hero Posted: April 23, 2009 at 01:43 PM (#3149647)
I never thought that THAC0 was that complicated. You roll the dice, apply modifiers, and look up the result on a table.


My problem with THAC0 was never that it was complicated. Rather, that it was too simplistic, too unrealistic.
   68. Chris Dial Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:49 PM (#3149669)
Ah. You're referencing the placement of one into the other, to cause a hole between whatever realm the players are currently in and the Astral Plain?
Yes. It's a terrific trap. A portable hole appears as a 10' pit. As the player falls in, a bag of holding is dropped in. They have a segment to dimension door or teleport, but otherwise are completely ######.

Also, you can stuff one over a person (like an assassin from behind) and then tear it with a dagger or something.

That is assuming you don't want a sphere of annhilation in the game giving off static pops.

Also, they are just gone. I don't believe they go to the Astral Plane, but I could be wrong about that.
   69. Chris Dial Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:50 PM (#3149672)
My thinking was that they should be extraordinarily rare, like two per party.
Per level? Because two per party is too low.
   70. RJ in TO Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:54 PM (#3149677)
Also, they are just gone. I don't believe they go to the Astral Plane, but I could be wrong about that.

Based on Wikipedia (the ultimate source for all things nerdy), it apparently works in the following manner:

In the physics of Dungeons & Dragons, putting a bag of holding inside a portable hole will result in a rift to be opened to the Astral Plane, and both items will be lost forever. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it instead opens a gate to the Astral Plane, sucking in every creature in a ten foot radius, and destroying both the bag and hole. The contents of the bags are either scattered throughout the Astral Plane or destroyed.


It scares me that I still at least partially remembered this.
   71. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: April 23, 2009 at 05:55 PM (#3149678)
Per level? Because two per party is too low.

Total, and my players agreed with you.

EDIT: My thinking was that I wanted magic items to be really special, something that players would treasure, rather than an item on their Batman utility belt, to be pulled out when they needed it. The idea was that just acquiring a magic item would be an adventure in itself, and the stories associated with that item would be remembered.

Like I said, though, my players disagreed, and I soon stopped being DM.
   72. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: April 23, 2009 at 06:14 PM (#3149703)
Of course, if you're playing Hackmaster, you'd wind up in Bagworld.
   73. Craig Calcaterra Posted: April 23, 2009 at 06:23 PM (#3149721)
In the physics of Dungeons & Dragons, putting a bag of holding inside a portable hole will result in a rift to be opened to the Astral Plane, and both items will be lost forever. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it instead opens a gate to the Astral Plane, sucking in every creature in a ten foot radius, and destroying both the bag and hole. The contents of the bags are either scattered throughout the Astral Plane or destroyed.


That's exactly what happens when you put Minute Rice in a microwave.
   74. Kid Charlemagne Posted: April 23, 2009 at 06:24 PM (#3149729)
What do they do now? I admit I've never even seen a third edition book.

Basically, everything is redone so that a high roll is always good. In 1st edition, you might roll a d20 and add your modifiers, with (let's say) a result of "10." You'd compare that to your THAC0 (to hit AC 0), which maybe is 17 - meaning you need to roll a 17 to hit someone with an AC of 0 (AC 0, for those not in the know is pretty good; the range went from 10 (bad) down to -10 (very good)). By a nifty feat of subtraction you'd know your result of a ten would hit someone with an AC of 7. For really early versions, there was a chart.

In 3rd edition, everything goes up (which is a benefit in itself). So you roll your d20, add your modifiers, and the total that you get is the armor class that you hit. AC starts, roughly speaking, at 10 and goes up, with not theoretical upper limit. You basically cut out half the math, as you only need to add your numbers up and don't have to then subtract them from another score.

4th edition (which is about a year old) keeps this basic mechanic and refines a few others (and then tacks on a new power system that may or may not appeal to someone).
   75. Chris Dial Posted: April 23, 2009 at 06:25 PM (#3149732)
In the physics of Dungeons & Dragons, putting a bag of holding inside a portable hole will result in a rift to be opened to the Astral Plane, and both items will be lost forever. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it instead opens a gate to the Astral Plane, sucking in every creature in a ten foot radius, and destroying both the bag and hole. The contents of the bags are either scattered throughout the Astral Plane or destroyed.
It could have been updated to that, but I'll have to check my original DM Guide.
   76. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: April 23, 2009 at 06:29 PM (#3149747)
For really early versions, there was a chart.

I think my books have the charts - pages and pages of them.

So you roll your d20, add your modifiers, and the total that you get is the armor class that you hit. AC starts, roughly speaking, at 10 and goes up, with not theoretical upper limit. You basically cut out half the math, as you only need to add your numbers up and don't have to then subtract them from another score.

Makes sense.
   77. Kyle S at work Posted: April 23, 2009 at 06:32 PM (#3149759)
Two comments:

1) I had the exact same initial reaction as Dayn - let's make sure that Murray Chass never finds out about this thread.

2) Where were all of you when I talked about booster drafting Revised and got roundly mocked on a thread here this winter? Too chicken to get my back, or what? Surely there is some overlap between D&Ders; and ex-MTGers.
   78. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: April 23, 2009 at 06:35 PM (#3149770)
I've played a couple games of M:TG, and had some fun. But it was back when I was in college, and dead broke, so I wasn't about to drop cash on leisure activities not related to alcohol.
   79. RJ in TO Posted: April 23, 2009 at 06:36 PM (#3149772)
2) Where were all of you when I talked about booster drafting Revised and got roundly mocked on a thread here this winter? Too chicken to get my back, or what? Surely there is some overlap between D&Ders;and ex-MTGers.

Regrettably, I suspect that I was one of the people mocking you. You see, idiotic pursuits which I like are cool, whereas idiotic pursuits I don't like are nerdy.
   80. Greg (U)K Posted: April 23, 2009 at 07:01 PM (#3149877)
I never got into M:TG just because I didn't like the idea of deck construction.
I always had in my mind that it would be cool to have like....9 different nations, each with their own deck of about 1400 cards or so...at any point you could draw totally weak or totally strong creatures. Maybe each deck would be slanted to a colour or something but no real plan beyond that.

I guess that's why I never really got into any nerd games. Building a really effective deck and winning didn't really hold much appeal for me. I like the games where you can sit back and just watch things develop. I had to stop playing AD&D;for similar reasons. I would get really annoyed with my friends who played it as if it was a competition to see whose character could develop the best. Although also I had to stop because AD&D;is far too social a game for me. Committing 6-8 hours in one day to hanging out with people is a bit more than I can handle most days.
   81. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 07:31 PM (#3149944)
Magic is for nerds.
   82. Kyle S at work Posted: April 23, 2009 at 07:38 PM (#3149955)
Alright, that does it. Screw all of you. I'm going to go send Murray Chass a telegram.
   83. RJ in TO Posted: April 23, 2009 at 07:42 PM (#3149962)
Murray Chase has access to telegrams? I just assumed that he was working with carrier pigeons, or perhaps smoke signals.
   84. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 07:57 PM (#3149987)
He's a rather articulate commentator when you consider that he eschews the written word as a newfangled mechanic thought up by people too dumb to grunt and wave their hands suggestively.
   85. Nineto Lezcano hits the pinata for the candy (CW) Posted: April 23, 2009 at 09:41 PM (#3150196)
First, no offense meant to JGLB, TFTIO, or the other Lounge forces arrayed against the undead. Together - Yes! We! Can!

As for Magic. I played, not at tournament level but frequently, through... I want to say 2-3 expansions after Ice Age? I could be wrong here, it's been awhile. I ran a mostly red burn deck focused on instants and a black (and maybe green?) deck based on reanimating units. Oh, and I was into artifacts as well. But they depreciated a lot of cards, it got hard to keep up and I got into FFXI.
   86. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 23, 2009 at 09:57 PM (#3150211)
it got hard to keep up and I got into FFXI.

Final Fantasy?

Nerd!
   87. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 10:05 PM (#3150220)
Well, we're all just the 733t3st of h4x0rz, aren't w3?
   88. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: April 23, 2009 at 10:08 PM (#3150223)
   89. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: April 23, 2009 at 10:17 PM (#3150229)
To add my voice to the minority dissent in this thread - even speaking as someone who spent a lot of time on D&D;growing up - THT getting a profile in USA Today of all things is a pretty cool event, baseball-community wise. I think it's sort of sad the direction the thread has taken.
   90. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: April 23, 2009 at 10:18 PM (#3150232)
Sorry guys can't talk. AC/DC is about to salute me.

How did they know of my intent to ROCK?!
   91. rfloh Posted: April 23, 2009 at 10:28 PM (#3150239)

2) Where were all of you when I talked about booster drafting Revised and got roundly mocked on a thread here this winter? Too chicken to get my back, or what? Surely there is some overlap between D&Ders;and ex-MTGers.


I just could never get into the collecting aspect of MtG.
   92. zenbitz Posted: April 23, 2009 at 10:50 PM (#3150256)
Sorry guys can't talk. AC/DC is about to salute me.

How did they know of my intent to ROCK?!


Brian Johnson actually expert in Bayesian statistics.

Bonn Scott more of a philosopher

"I know that it's evil. I know that it's got to be"
   93. Flopamatic Posted: April 23, 2009 at 11:05 PM (#3150266)
This thread is funnier than a troll getting pissed on by a Dragon Turtle!!!
   94. McCoy Posted: April 23, 2009 at 11:25 PM (#3150272)
MtG killed role-playing in my area. Before MtG the big game for us was Rifts with I guess AD&D;coming in second. I got involved in MtG with the revised edition set and left that game forever at the Fallen Empire set. I was a big green fan that loved the killer bees and thicket basilisks. Red was probably my next favorite grouping, powerful dragon, lightning, fireballs, and orcs.
   95. JGLB, God's Own Favorite Sucker Posted: April 23, 2009 at 11:57 PM (#3150289)
Nine Companions in the Fellowship of the ring, nine players on the field of baseball. Coincidence? I think not.
   96. McCoy Posted: April 24, 2009 at 12:02 AM (#3150293)
Yeah but they are all Eddie Gaedels
   97. Flopamatic Posted: April 24, 2009 at 12:23 AM (#3150299)
A recommendation from Akbar The Evil includes setting a trap with a false ceiling, a portable hole, another thin layer of a false ceiling, a bag of holding, covered by another false ceiling, all wrapped up in a reverse gravity spell. Take one false step into the reverse gravity zone, you are thrown upwards (no saving spell) where the character in question crashes into the bag of holding then immediately into the portable hole. A particularly devious DM would initially inform the player their player walked into a reverse gravity spell and was cast 10 feet upwards and crashed into the ceiling. Give the player some time to react as to what his character "might have done" in that split seconds fall upwards. When it is certain they did not take immediate evasive action to teleport, etc., before hitting ceiling, inform them of the bad news of being destroyed and lost forever.

Also, using a Horn Of Blasting in conjunction with a Sphere Of Annihilation also is pretty nasty -- just ask Fum The Mad (except he too is gone forever) ...
   98. Athletic Supporter gangnam style Posted: April 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM (#3150301)
Where's Admiral Ackbar and Randal when you need them?
   99. McCoy Posted: April 24, 2009 at 12:39 AM (#3150303)
Or you could go the Foxtrot route. Which is have your players spend hours putting together their character and then when you start the campaign you kill them off immediately in a rock slide.
   100. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: April 24, 2009 at 12:55 AM (#3150314)
2) Where were all of you when I talked about booster drafting Revised and got roundly mocked on a thread here this winter? Too chicken to get my back, or what? Surely there is some overlap between D&Ders;and ex-MTGers.

Man, I never catch the topics that unexpectedly turn to MTG. I play MTG competitively. I'm not amazing, but I have played two Pro Tours, cashed two GPs, and I have 9 lifetime Pro Points.
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