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Tuesday, May 08, 2018

Blue Jays closer Roberto Osuna charged with assault by Toronto police

Toronto Blue Jays closer Roberto Osuna was arrested early Tuesday and charged with assaulting a woman, according to Toronto police.

Details of the alleged incident weren’t immediately known.
...
The Blue Jays didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.

Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 08, 2018 at 02:19 PM | 59 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays, domestic abuse, roberto osuna

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   1. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: May 08, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5668580)
I eagerly await the inevitable argument over whether or not a player should have his profession affected by his employer for personal, off-the-field allegations.
   2. CheersUnusualPlays Posted: May 08, 2018 at 02:40 PM (#5668587)
Details of the alleged incident weren’t immediately known.
...
The Blue Jays didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment


This seems like a sane response
   3. Rusty Priske Posted: May 08, 2018 at 02:57 PM (#5668609)
#1. The answer is YES.

The question of 'how much', will vary as facts come to light.
   4. Batman Posted: May 08, 2018 at 03:24 PM (#5668646)
There's a link under the article to Vlad Guerrero Jr. hitting a home run off a tee.
   5. Lars6788 Posted: May 08, 2018 at 03:25 PM (#5668648)
Allegations are a serious thing - the branding may already have started but hopefully in real life, Osuna gets the help he needs.

Wasn’t he dealing with anxiety problems a year ago?
   6. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:10 PM (#5668695)
Allegations are a serious thing - the branding may already have started but hopefully in real life, Osuna gets the help he needs.

Assuming the allegations are true, why does an ####### who assaults women deserve help, rather than punishment?

Because he can throw a baseball really hard?
   7. Greg K Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:11 PM (#5668696)
This is unwelcome news.
   8. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:12 PM (#5668701)
why does an ####### who assaults women deserve help


yeah my initial reaction was, I hope his girlfriend gets help and gets away from that relationship!
   9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:13 PM (#5668702)
yeah my initial reaction was, I hope his girlfriend gets help and gets away from that relationship!

If it's true, they should lock him up.
   10. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:13 PM (#5668703)

Assuming the allegations are true, why does an ####### who assaults women deserve help, rather than punishment?

Why can't it be both?
   11. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:18 PM (#5668706)
Why can't it be both?


It can be both. Just peculiar that sympathy would exclusively go to the alleged perpetrator.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:31 PM (#5668726)
It can be both. Just peculiar that sympathy would exclusively go to the alleged perpetrator.

Exactly, it can be both, but punishment should be the priority of the rest of society. He can seek all the help he wants, and he should. But the onus of that is on him, not anyone else.
   13. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5668732)
Assuming the allegations are true, why does an ####### who assaults women deserve help, rather than punishment?


If the abuser is a combat vet suffering from severe PTSD, does he deserve help, punishment, or both?
   14. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:55 PM (#5668744)
I'm not gung ho on the punishment aspect of this, I just think the lion's share of the sympathy in cases like this should go to the victim rather than the abuser. Whatever he is suffering from that would cause him to abuse another human should be dealt with as well.
   15. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:57 PM (#5668746)
If the abuser is a combat vet suffering from severe PTSD, does he deserve help, punishment, or both?

He deserves help for his PTSD because of his service. It has nothing to do with his assaulting anyone; he deserves it either way. The assault does nothing to make him more deserving of help, but it makes him deserving of punishment.

Of course, what that has to do with a millionaire athlete who has been playing baseball continuously since he was 16, is beyond me.



   16. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:58 PM (#5668747)
You're crazy, snapper.
   17. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:59 PM (#5668748)
Whatever he is suffering from that would cause him to abuse another human should be dealt with as well.

Lot's of people are just violent ########. When they don't get what they want, they resort to violence.
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:59 PM (#5668749)
You're crazy, snapper.

How? In thinking that people who violently assault others should be punished?

I don't have sympathy for a guy who beats people up to get his jollies, or to work out his frustrations. It's barbarous behavior and should be condemned and punished.
   19. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 08, 2018 at 04:59 PM (#5668750)
If it's true, they should lock him up.

I would say that would depend on the severity of the assault, which appears to be unclear at the moment (unless there was more info in TFA). If he seriously harmed, beat, or injured someone, then absolutely. But usually that would be charged as aggravated assault (I assume having no insight of the law in Canadia). If he slapped a girl once, that is plenty shitty. But I would think jail time for a one-off slap or similar would be a serious overreach. If it is somewhere in between... well it all depends.
   20. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 05:03 PM (#5668751)
I would say that would depend on the severity of the assault, which appears to be unclear at the moment (unless there was more info in TFA). If he seriously harmed, beat, or injured someone, then absolutely. But usually that would be charged as aggravated assault (I assume having no insight of the law in Canadia). If he slapped a girl once, that is plenty shitty. But I would think jail time for a one-off slap or similar would be a serious overreach. If it is somewhere in between... well it all depends.

Yes. Agree.
   21. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 08, 2018 at 05:03 PM (#5668752)
We've had this conversation more than enough times, so I'm content to leave it at, "You're crazy."
   22. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 08, 2018 at 05:11 PM (#5668754)
Of course, what that has to do with a millionaire athlete who has been playing baseball continuously since he was 16, is beyond me.


If we acknowledge that PTSD can create broken souls capable of violence that needs treatment, then we can assume that other sorts of trauma might lead to such conditions.
   23. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 05:11 PM (#5668755)
We've had this conversation more than enough times, so I'm content to leave it at, "You're crazy."

Sympathy for criminals rather than victims is far crazier than anything I've ever said.
   24. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 05:17 PM (#5668759)
If we acknowledge that PTSD can create broken souls capable of violence that needs treatment, then we can assume that other sorts of trauma might lead to such conditions.

Maybe trauma can create those souls, but that doesn't excuse the behavior. The military PTSD victim should get the punishment the crime merits, he just is entitled to treatment afterwards.

You don't get to beat up people just because you had a hard life.
   25. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 08, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5668761)
The military PTSD victim should get the punishment the crime merits, he just is entitled to treatment afterwards.


Afterwards?
   26. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5668764)
Lot's of people are just violent ########. When they don't get what they want, they resort to violence.


I agree that some people are violent. There is a court system to determine the severity of situations on a case by case basis and assault and battery is a crime that should be punishable by law.
   27. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 08, 2018 at 05:30 PM (#5668765)
Sympathy for criminals rather than victims is far crazier than anything I've ever said.


It's possible to empathize with victims and criminals who were victims of other things previously. Your world is too simplistic too often.
   28. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 08, 2018 at 05:44 PM (#5668769)
Sympathy for criminals rather than victims is far crazier than anything I've ever said.

Glad to know you're in sympathy with these victims, too.
   29. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 08, 2018 at 06:41 PM (#5668792)
If the abuser is a combat vet suffering from severe PTSD


Then get that treated. I'm with Snapper on this, the victim here should be our sole focus for sympathy initially.

And now I'm going to wade into a minefield here and state that I have no sympathy for anyone who voluntarily signs up for military service then has issues later because their political masters decided to send them off to some sh*thole country to shoot the other guys whilst getting their arses blown to bits by the angry natives.

When you sign up for the military you must know that the possibility of going off somewhere and seeing combat is a possibility? What are people thinking otherwise? I actually like the idea of the military forces; the camaraderie, the discipline, the order, etc. however it was never an option for me simply because I didn't like the possibility that someone in Washington could just send me anywhere to see action and that I might get my arse blown to bits.

I know CFB was in the military, I'd be curious as to his thoughts on what people are thinking when they enlist. Do they not think going to "backwater, 3rd world dump" and getting shot at is not a possibility?
   30. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 08, 2018 at 06:53 PM (#5668798)
The question has never been "should we sympathize with the abused woman more?" Everyone has stipulated that from the start, and any conversation that doesn't acknowledge that is simply trolling and virtue signalling about how big and bad of a "against crime" big dick you are.

Someone suggested that both the accused abuser might need "help." Snapper, being a kneejerk ####### sometimes, flinched at the idea that abusers might actually need help rather than a good old fashioned stoning. The conversation went from there, showing explicitly that there are situations where Snapper recognizes that abusers may be themselves abused (which no one suggests absolves them of their crimes) and thus may need "help."

Now he is claiming that post-military service trauma is a special case trauma and the only PTSD that should count, I think. Not really sure there. I would push back if so, because trauma is trauma, and the condition is not post-military-service-induced-traumatic-stress-syndrome.
   31. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5668808)

Afterwards?


After he fulfills his punishment for the crime.
   32. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 07:15 PM (#5668811)
Snapper, being a kneejerk ####### sometimes, flinched at the idea that abusers might actually need help rather than a good old fashioned stoning. The conversation went from there, showing explicitly that there are situations where Snapper recognizes that abusers may be themselves abused (which no one suggests absolves them of their crimes) and thus may need "help."

No. I flinched at the idea that we (and society) owe the offender any help. Of course they need help. But they get that after they face their punishment.

Now he is claiming that post-military service trauma is a special case trauma and the only PTSD that should count, I think. Not really sure there. I would push back if so, because trauma is trauma, and the condition is not post-military-service-induced-traumatic-stress-syndrome.

No special case. The military PTSD sufferer should face the same criminal punishment as anyone else. It's just that he's entitled to treatment for his condition from the VA as a condition of his service, and honorable discharge. He doesn't lose that right because of his crime.
   33. Snowboy Posted: May 08, 2018 at 07:21 PM (#5668816)
This thread's going no where, and that's the way it should be.

I appreciate El Hombre posting it, it's important news. But without any details, we have to reserve judgement. Osuna was charged with assault, so there is some smoke here. But we need more information before we start yelling *FIRE* and casting him down.
   34. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 08, 2018 at 08:24 PM (#5668872)

And now I'm going to wade into a minefield here and state that I have no sympathy for anyone who voluntarily signs up for military service then has issues later because their political masters decided to send them off to some sh*thole country to shoot the other guys whilst getting their arses blown to bits by the angry natives.

Plenty of soldiers suffered from PTSD after fighting in places like France and Germany so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

And why does being aware of the risks going in make one less sympathetic? In a way, that sacrifice makes them more sympathetic IMO. I mean, someone has to serve, and it isn't you (or me). Unless you're saying that any military action is by definition immoral.

I'm also skeptical that anyone, let alone an 18-year-old, can be said to really understand what it's like to live with a psychological illness like PTSD without having gone through it or something similar. They may know it's a possibility, but beyond that I'm not sure it's anything more than an abstract concept.
   35. Blastin Posted: May 09, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5669164)
I don't usually agree with snapper. But you guys are being too harsh here.

Frankly, the only quibble I have is the "after." After being sentenced (or whatever)? Sure. But they absolutely should receive treatment while in prison (or on probation etc), not just because we have empathy but because, unless we just kill everyone who commits a crime, they're going to be out in the world at some point.


I say this for a few reason. I have my own mental health/trauma issues but have not committed a violent crime (I'm getting help anyway). If I were to hurt someone, I would hope I'd be treated but surely would deserve to be punished for said act.

My uncle committed a violent crime, for which he was justifiably punished, but, well, he got out of jail eventually, and of course he just kept going back in for petty nonviolent crimes. We should punish the guilty but also try to rehabilitate.

I don't think it's either or. I think it MUST be both.
   36. Baldrick Posted: May 09, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5669199)
Sympathy for criminals rather than victims is far crazier than anything I've ever said.

You should have sympathy for both.
   37. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 09, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5669220)

No, Snapper is entirely correct here. There was an allegation that Osuna assaulted someone. And Lars6788 out of nowhere said that Osuna should get help. That's what Snapper correctly reacted to: the immediate jump to getting help for an (alleged) criminal rather than for an (alleged) victim. Sam tried to turn it into a gotcha on Snapper by talking about PTSD. He could have just as easily said cancer or tooth decay, for all the relevance to the conversation. Snapper didn't say that Osuna shouldn't get chemo if he has cancer; he said that it's irrelevant to this topic, which is about Osuna allegedly committing a violent crime.
   38. Blastin Posted: May 09, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5669245)
He, if guilty, should be both punished and treated.

Not quite the same, but I watched a movie called Pervert Park (Netflix it) about sex offenders (of all stripes), and, well, some of them did some stuff, maaaaan. But unless we kill everyone (some of you would say we should, but anyway), must be a path other than throwing them in a hole AFTER their sentence.
   39. Hysterical & Useless Posted: May 09, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5669259)
getting help for an (alleged) criminal


I think part of the problem is that the phrase "get help" can be kind of a shorthand for "get him some sort of treatment so he stops doing such ###### things to other people" but is often understood as "oh the poor baby, we must assist him."

Keeping someone in jail is extremely expensive, more expensive than giving them a full ride at Harvard. So, if we can do anything that will both keep people out of jail AND keep them from doing nasty #### to the rest of us, that (to me) sounds like a good idea. Doesn't mean I feel sorry for the perp, or that I don't feel sorry for the victim.

So, I don't think I disagree with snapper, but I don't think any of the positions expressed are necessarily as far apart as early conclusion-jumping makes them seem.
   40. Rusty Priske Posted: May 09, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5669329)
#39 is dead on.

I don't know why saying that someone needs help is somehow being soft on crime.

Just punishing people without trying to deal with the issues that brought on the abhorrent behaviour is not only reprehensible, it is just plain stupid.
   41. Panic Posted: May 09, 2018 at 02:55 PM (#5669407)
And now I'm going to wade into a minefield here and state that I have no sympathy for anyone who voluntarily signs up for military service then has issues later because their political masters decided to send them off to some sh*thole country to shoot the other guys whilst getting their arses blown to bits by the angry natives.

When you sign up for the military you must know that the possibility of going off somewhere and seeing combat is a possibility? What are people thinking otherwise? I actually like the idea of the military forces; the camaraderie, the discipline, the order, etc. however it was never an option for me simply because I didn't like the possibility that someone in Washington could just send me anywhere to see action and that I might get my arse blown to bits.


While Snapper is completely in the right IMO, this argument "having his back" is insane. The idea that PTSD is just one of those "acceptable risks" when joining the military does not show a proper appreciation for what PTSD actually is. It is an injury of war, just like a broken leg or arm, and our military and society as a whole should be on the hook for treating it. These people have risked their lives for our safety and freedom. Which is something you clearly noted you are not willing to do.

   42. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 09, 2018 at 03:13 PM (#5669425)
And now I'm going to wade into a minefield here and state that I have no sympathy for anyone who voluntarily signs up for military service then has issues later because their political masters decided to send them off to some sh*thole country to shoot the other guys whilst getting their arses blown to bits by the angry natives.

When you sign up for the military you must know that the possibility of going off somewhere and seeing combat is a possibility? What are people thinking otherwise? I actually like the idea of the military forces; the camaraderie, the discipline, the order, etc. however it was never an option for me simply because I didn't like the possibility that someone in Washington could just send me anywhere to see action and that I might get my arse blown to bits.


While Snapper is completely in the right IMO, this argument "having his back" is insane.

Yes. I totally disagree with this argument. I think veterans deserve tremendous respect and support.
   43. perros Posted: May 09, 2018 at 03:25 PM (#5669436)
If everybody had to serve in the military, we'd have a lot less wars where anybody got shot, period.
   44. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 09, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5669465)
If everybody had to serve in the military, we'd have a lot less wars where anybody got shot, period.

Yeah we never have had wars with mass slaughter when we had conscription. [Face palm].

All conscription does is allow the military to squander the lives of the troops with impunity, b/c they know they can always get more.
   45. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 09, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5669469)
All conscription does is allow the military to squander the lives of the troops with impunity, b/c they know they can always get more.


Volunteer service doesn't seem to be curtailing their abilities to squander the lives of troops with impunity.
   46. Omineca Greg Posted: May 09, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5669471)
Sweden reactivated conscription in January.
   47. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 09, 2018 at 04:07 PM (#5669476)
Volunteer service doesn't seem to be curtailing their abilities to squander the lives of troops with impunity.

Sure it does. The vast reduction in deaths vs wounds is due to massive investment by the military in medical treatment. Advanced body armor, Mine resistant vehicles, etc. are things draftee forces don't invest in.

In 17 years in Afghanistan, and 9 in Iraq we suffered under 6,000 deaths. We lost that many in single years in Vietnam.
   48. Lars6788 Posted: May 09, 2018 at 09:33 PM (#5669701)
   49. Howie Menckel Posted: May 09, 2018 at 10:41 PM (#5669771)

Osuna comment next week: "Every day I wake up and thank God there are the Yankees"
   50. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 10, 2018 at 04:04 AM (#5669840)

Just punishing people without trying to deal with the issues that brought on the abhorrent behaviour is not only reprehensible, it is just plain stupid.
Excusing abhorrent behavior by treating it as the result of a disease rather than a choice is reprehensible.
   51. Blastin Posted: May 10, 2018 at 05:35 AM (#5669845)
I have anxiety too. If I hurt someone, I should get punished (as well as treated). You can empathize with it, but, well, I should still have consequences.
   52. Rusty Priske Posted: May 10, 2018 at 08:54 AM (#5669867)
Excusing abhorrent behavior by treating it as the result of a disease rather than a choice is reprehensible.


Who said anything about a disease?

I have anxiety too. If I hurt someone, I should get punished (as well as treated). You can empathize with it, but, well, I should still have consequences.


Who said anything about a lack of consequences?

You even put the rest of the answer in your statement:

I should get punished (as well as treated).


Exactly. The pushback was against the idea that the second part of that statement should be ignored.
   53. Lassus Posted: May 10, 2018 at 09:28 AM (#5669879)
The pushback was against the idea that the second part of that statement should be ignored.

My impression was that the pushback was against the idea - accurate or not - that it was placed as the primary concern.
   54. jmurph Posted: May 10, 2018 at 09:39 AM (#5669884)
My impression was that the pushback was against the idea - accurate or not - that it was placed as the primary concern.

Yeah I don't see why people are getting confused about this. Post 5 literally refers to being worried about "branding" Osuna. That was the post snapper responded to. People are acting like he just jumped in throwing haymakers. Christ, it's not a long thread, shouldn't be hard to catch up.
   55. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 10, 2018 at 10:08 AM (#5669907)
My impression was that the pushback was against the idea - accurate or not - that it was placed as the primary concern.

Correct.
   56. Blastin Posted: May 10, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5669927)
Right. Empathy for Osuna should be present but should not come before that of the victim.

Also, article up at fangraphs today, and this could shatter the Jays' postseason chances. Far less important, though.
   57. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 10, 2018 at 12:53 PM (#5670031)

Excusing abhorrent behavior by treating it as the result of a disease rather than a choice is reprehensible.

Who said anything about a disease?
Several people, starting with Lars6788. (I mean, are you quibbling about the word "disease" as opposed to some roughly synonymous term like ailment or syndrome or illness? Otherwise, not sure your point; when people talk about 'treatment' above, they weren't referring to window treatments.)
   58. Rusty Priske Posted: May 10, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5670178)
You do understand the difference between mental health issues and disease, right?

Having said that, it is pretty clear (now) that BOTH sides (including mine) are arguing against something that the other side doesn't believe.
   59. Rally Posted: May 10, 2018 at 03:46 PM (#5670195)
Sure it does. The vast reduction in deaths vs wounds is due to massive investment by the military in medical treatment. Advanced body armor, Mine resistant vehicles, etc. are things draftee forces don't invest in.

In 17 years in Afghanistan, and 9 in Iraq we suffered under 6,000 deaths. We lost that many in single years in Vietnam.


I don't buy single reasons behind those differences. The main reason for improved medical treatment and protective equipment has to be that we have technology now that was barely conceivable 50 years ago. Conscription vs. Volunteer forces might have a small effect here, but is unlikely to be the major cause.

The reduction in US soldiers dying in those wars is some combination of technology and different strategy and objectives on the part of both our forces and our opponents. In Vietnam we were fighting an actual state controlled army which had the objective of ruling the territory. No so much in Iraq/Afghanistan, we're fighting people who are just trying to survive, cause chaos, and wait us out. Apples and Oranges.

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