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Sunday, September 16, 2012

BOBBY VALENTINE ON JOSE IGLESIAS DECISION: ‘IT’S NOT KINGERGARTEN HERE’

But it is in the WEEI headline writers’ department, apparently.

The Red Sox are at the stage of the season where wins and losses border on meaningless. The most important consideration for the team this month is the opportunity to evaluate players to help define roles heading into 2013.

Among the most important players being evaluated while receiving an opportunity to acclimate to the competition in the big leagues is shortstop Jose Iglesias. The 22-year-old has endured considerable struggles since his late-August promotion to the big leagues, having gone 2-for-28 (.071) with a .295 OPS. Still, this is a time when such struggles have no immediate consequence. He can go 0-for-50, with the Red Sox losing every remaining game of the season, and the only impact would be a) the fact that Iglesias would have the opportunity to become more accustomed to what big league pitching looks like; b) it would become clearer that he is not ready for the big leagues; and c) his confidence might take a hit in the short-term… That made a seventh-inning decision by manager Bobby Valentine in Toronto unexpected.

Iglesias was at the plate with Pedro Ciriaco on first and two out in a 0-0 tie in the top of the seventh inning. He took the first two pitches (ball, called strike), fouled off a 1-1 offering and then laid off a sharp 1-2 curveball from reliever Brandon Lyon on which Ciriaco stole second to put himself into scoring position.

With the count then even at 2-2, Valentine elected to pull Iglesias in favor of pinch-hitter Daniel Nava…

Asked if he was concerned that Iglesias’ confidence might suffer after being lifted in the middle of his plate appearance, Valentine suggested he was not concerned.

“I was pinch hit for with the bases loaded and a 3-2 count. It didn’t ruin my confidence. I think he’ll get over it. I talked to him. He said, ‘Whatever’s right for the team,’ ” Valentine told reporters. “I did let him hit. He went up there. I think there’s a good balance there. [Jon Lester has] just pitched 100 pitches trying to win a baseball game. There will be plenty of time. I don’t think that’s a make or break situation. He’s gotten one hit so far. He’ll get the opportunity to get some hits. It’s not kindergarten here.

“If you don’t think it was a good decision, so what,” Valentine added. “I think it was the right thing to do trying to win a game for a guy who’s busting his butt out there.”

For his part, Iglesias acknowledged that it was novel for him to be replaced in the middle of the at-bat, but he did not object to what Valentine elected to do.

“It’s pretty unusual, but he made a decision. He tried to do what’s best for the team, and I respect that decision,” Iglesias told reporters. “I was ready to hit. I had some good ABs today, did the best I could do. He made a decision, and I respect him.”

The District Attorney Posted: September 16, 2012 at 06:11 PM | 48 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: bobby valentine, crazy clown town, jose iglesias, red sox

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   1. Tripon Posted: September 16, 2012 at 06:51 PM (#4237463)
Man, I thought Valentine would... maybe not work, but be way better than this. This is just a train wreck.
   2. rr Posted: September 16, 2012 at 06:55 PM (#4237465)
It’s not kindergarten here.


Meme and handle potential with this.
   3. Darren Posted: September 16, 2012 at 07:05 PM (#4237469)
Can Iglesias hit in the Majors? I doubt it. One sure way not to find out: give him 28 ABs scattered across three weeks.
   4. Lassus Posted: September 16, 2012 at 07:05 PM (#4237470)
Well, I'm stumped. I've been holistic on my Bobby V. comments, but that whole thing just seems batshit stupid.
   5. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: September 16, 2012 at 07:05 PM (#4237471)
“I was pinch hit for with the bases loaded and a 3-2 count. It didn’t ruin my confidence.

that deserves a tracer, since I suspect Bobby V may be embellishing things here
   6. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 16, 2012 at 07:08 PM (#4237473)

What's the logic for sending him out there for the at-bat in the first place? Was it something Bobby saw in the matchup after 4 pitches that he didn't like?
   7. Walt Davis Posted: September 16, 2012 at 07:17 PM (#4237476)
Was it something Bobby saw in the matchup after 4 pitches that he didn't like?

I assume it was more some illogic around "after the steal, we now have a man in SCORING POSITION, I need a better hitter." Of course pinch-hitting with Nava who might actually get an XBH before the steal makes a lot more sense than pinch-hitting for a guy who's only (at best) going to hit a single anyway after the steal. But basically I assume Valentine went from "no real scoring chance here, might as well let the kid hit, get him out of the way" to "we've got a chance to score, want a better hitter."
   8. Guapo Posted: September 16, 2012 at 07:22 PM (#4237482)

What's the logic for sending him out there for the at-bat in the first place?


Forget it, Dave. It's Crazy Clown Town.
   9. Loren F. Posted: September 16, 2012 at 07:30 PM (#4237487)
Look, I respect the fact that the Sox are playing to win, and I am someone who believes that no game is truly meaningless. But it's rare to pull a guy mid-plate appearance in the postseason, let alone in what was then a 0-0 game #147 between two teams with losing records. Does Bobby V think that over-management moves like this compensate for the under-managing that he's been doing this year? Dave in #6 sums it up. What an assclown move. Even I know Sox fans deserve better than this, and I'm a Bronx-born Yankees fan.
   10. The District Attorney Posted: September 16, 2012 at 07:54 PM (#4237499)
The weird part about Valentine not playing Iglesias is that in spring training, the storyline was that Valentine wanted him (and Lavarnway) on the Opening Day roster and the organization didn't.

(Of course, that was probably yet another bad idea by Valentine from the point of view of trying to contend, insofar as Saltalamacchia has been pretty respectable, Lavarnway hasn't hit at all in the majors [although he likely will eventually], and Iglesias probably will never hit enough. Still, I do agree, at this point in the season, you might as well try out Iglesias.)
   11. Dale Sams Posted: September 16, 2012 at 07:59 PM (#4237501)
I have railed and railed about making in-AB pitcher changes when the situation warrants and damn the egos.

EX: Beckett is on the ropes, the tying run at first, 2 outs with a punch and judy batter up. You know if there's a hit Tito will pull Beckett. Wild pitch and the runner moves to second. Ok, now that punch and judy hitter can knock the guy in, bring in a reliever Tito!! Of course he didn't until P&J knocked the guy in.

But there's no advantage gained at all by waiting to PH for Iglesias. With a steal-threat on first, Nava should have been brought in immediatly, especially since Nava will see more pitchs giving Ciriaco more chances to steal.

edit: re Iglesias not ever being good enough for the majors. I suspect the same thing about Kalish.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 16, 2012 at 08:04 PM (#4237504)
Iglesias is not a major league hitter.

Unfortunately, Valentine is a clown.
   13. Mayor Blomberg Posted: September 16, 2012 at 08:38 PM (#4237517)
“If you don’t think it was a good decision, so what,” Valentine added.


Is there anybody he's not trying to pick a fight with?
   14. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 16, 2012 at 08:39 PM (#4237518)
Re: #12
Soon, Iglesias will not be a major league hitter and Valentine will not be a major league manager.
   15. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: September 16, 2012 at 08:42 PM (#4237520)
I don't know if Retrosheet or BB-ref would indicate if someone came in to pinch-hit in the middle of an at-bat. But none of the 26 games I found by searching for "pinch hits for Bobby Valentine" contained such a note. Here's a game where I'm positive that the pinch-hitter (Josh Thole for Chris Capuano) was brought in in the middle of the at-bat. There's no special note of it.

2 out of 26 times, Valentine was replaced by a pinch-hitter with the bases loaded. July 20, 1971, Dodgers against the Reds, and July 29, 1977, Mets against the Padres. So if anyone wants to look through the historical record to make sure those two instances weren't in the middle of an at-bat, go ahead. The latter time, Valentine himself had been a pinch-hitter and was removed when the opposing manager brought in an RHP, so maybe that's when it happened.

As for all the other 24 instances, it might have happened in this game, but if it did it happened because Valentine was both ejected and injured in the middle of the at-bat. He was ejected in this game too.

Or maybe it happened in the minors. Who knows.

I can also now compile this list of people who pinch-hit for Bobby Valentine during his career:

Bill Buckner (4x), Duke Sims, Jim Lefebvre, Willie Crawford (2x), Maury Wills, Winston Llenas (4x), Joe Lahoud (2x), John Balaz, John Milner (2x), Jerry Turner, Bruce Boisclair, Ed Kranepool (3x), Joe Simpson (2x), Dan Meyer

Also, I discovered that at one point the manager of the Angels was a man named "Bobby Winkles".
   16. Darren Posted: September 16, 2012 at 08:44 PM (#4237522)
Luckily we'll never know about Kalish either because he's been riding the pine too. Don't worry, though, we're getting a good, long look at what Scott Podsednik can do.
   17. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: September 16, 2012 at 08:52 PM (#4237528)
this is charlie dressen word for word.

by the way, check out this cartoon

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19600327&id=QCwxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ABAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7107,3012356
   18. Gamingboy Posted: September 16, 2012 at 08:54 PM (#4237530)
I'm reasonably sure that Bobby Valentine is a few days away from doing a bawdry song and dance number in order to get himself fired.
   19. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: September 16, 2012 at 08:57 PM (#4237532)
As a Yanks fan, I'm relishing the last days of the Bobby V. era. It saddens me that it will be all over in 2 weeks.
   20. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 16, 2012 at 09:00 PM (#4237535)
Wow. Nine pitchers, three catchers, seven infielders and five outfielders.

It's really too bad that none of the young hurlers up from the various farms was given an Oriental chance of making good.

EDIT: that's RE:17 in case anybody's confused.
   21. Darren Posted: September 16, 2012 at 09:04 PM (#4237536)

I'm reasonably sure that Bobby Valentine is a few days away from doing a bawdry song and dance number in order to get himself fired.


If I were the Sox, I'd make sure the championship trophies and any important historical jersies are locked up tight.
   22. Rennie's Tenet Posted: September 16, 2012 at 09:13 PM (#4237537)
Also, I discovered that at one point the manager of the Angels was a man named "Bobby Winkles".


Winkles was a novelty in the 70's because the great majority of his coaching career had been in the college ranks.
   23. Dale Sams Posted: September 16, 2012 at 09:27 PM (#4237543)
It saddens me that it will be all over in 2 weeks.


Oh, I think you've got a good chance of grabbing the 'Selig Emergency Parachute Spot'.
   24. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 16, 2012 at 09:37 PM (#4237544)
I dunno. This is starting to remind me a bit of the Cashman objective pipe saga. Everything BV's said and been involved with has taken such a sharp turn to the absurd in the last couple weeks.
   25. bobm Posted: September 16, 2012 at 09:40 PM (#4237546)
[15] I don't know if Retrosheet or BB-ref would indicate if someone came in to pinch-hit in the middle of an at-bat.

Good question. To follow on to you post, note that the 2012 rulebook reads:

10.15 STRIKEOUTS ...

(b) When a batter leaves the game with two strikes against him, and the substitute batter completes a strikeout, the official scorer shall charge the strikeout and the time at bat to the first batter. If the substitute batter completes the turn at bat in any other manner, including a base on balls, the official scorer shall score the action as having been that of the substitute batter.


So, if this rule was the same in the 1970s, I think you'd also have to look at these six ABs:

Cr#   Yr# Gm#           Date  Tm Opp       Pitcher     Score Inn RoB Out RBI   WPA  RE24   LI Play Description
1       1   1 1972-05-11 (1) LAD NYM    Tom Seaver  tied 0-0  t2 123   1   0 -0.08 -0.76 2.95        Strikeout
2       2   1     1972-05-27 LAD HOU Fred Gladding ahead 3-7  t8 123   1   0 -0.01 -0.76  .28        Strikeout
3       1   1     1976-09-29 SDP CIN   Fred Norman  tied 0-0  b1 123   0   0 -0.07 -0.75 2.31        Strikeout
4       1   1     1977-06-05 SDP LAD      Doug Rau ahead 0-1  t1 123   2   0 -0.06 -0.76 2.55        Strikeout
5       2   1 1977-07-15 (1) NYM PIT    Jim Rooker  down 3-1  b5 123   2   0 -0.11 -0.74 4.26        Strikeout
6       1   1     1979-07-28 SEA OAK Dave Hamilton  tied 4-4  t5 123   1   0 -0.10 -0.80 3.32        Strikeout
   26. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: September 16, 2012 at 09:46 PM (#4237551)
Are those the only times that he struck out with the bases loaded? If not, how did you choose those six?

I'm not good with databases, the Play Index is the extent of my powers.
   27. bobm Posted: September 16, 2012 at 09:57 PM (#4237557)
[26] I used BR PI Event Finder: Bobby Valentine: 6 Strikeouts in Career-1979, With runners on 123

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/event_finder.cgi?type=b&id=valenbo02#gotresults&year=1969&year_to=1979&divisory=1&from=button&type=b&id=valenbo02&event=3&out;_type=&criteria1=runners_on_bases---111---With_runners_on_123---robcount&ajax=1&submitter=1&z=1

BTW, Event Finder is really powerful esp. for things like splits of splits.

Check out - http://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2012/05/cool-play-index-event-finder-tricks/
   28. bobm Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:04 PM (#4237562)
[15] As for all the other 24 instances, it might have happened in this game, but if it did it happened because Valentine was both ejected and injured in the middle of the at-bat.

Retrosheet says no.

ANGELS 1ST: Rivers grounded out (first to pitcher); Chalk singled to shortstop; TRAVERS REPLACED WRIGHT (PITCHING); LLENAS BATTED FOR VALENTINE; Travers threw a wild pitch [Chalk to second]; Pitch from Wright was over Valnetine's [sic] head and he charged the mound. They fought and both were ejected. Valentine suffered a shoulder dislocation and did not play again until June 14; Llenas made an out to shortstop; Robinson singled to center [Chalk scored]; Oliver forced Robinson (shortstop to second); 1 R, 2 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Brewers 0, Angels 1.


He was ejected in this game too.

Retrosheet says not with the bases loaded.

ANGELS 8TH: Oliver singled to left; Doherty singled to left [Oliver to second]; MCCRAW BATTED FOR RODRIGUEZ; McCraw flied out to center; LLENAS BATTED FOR VALENTINE; Llenas grounded out (second to first) [Oliver to third, Doherty to second]; Rivers singled to second [Oliver scored, Doherty to third]; On a bunt Doyle reached on an error by Burleson [Doherty scored (unearned) (no RBI), Rivers to second, Doyle to first]; Stanton popped to first in foul territory; 2 R (1 ER), 3 H, 1 E, 2 LOB. Red Sox 5, Angels 3.
   29. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:05 PM (#4237563)
I checked those six games, and he was never removed for a pinch hitter in the middle of an at-bat. In the 5th game listed, he struck out twice with the bases loaded, in the sixth game listed he was a pinch hitter, struck out, and was replaced in the field at the half-inning.
   30. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:07 PM (#4237565)
When a batter leaves the game with two strikes against him, and the substitute batter completes a strikeout, the official scorer shall charge the strikeout and the time at bat to the first batter.


So if this happens in the bottom of the last inning, does the PH even get recorded?

BB-Ref says Valentine played CGs on 5/11/72 (1) and 5/27/72. He played 8 innings on 9/29/76 6/5/77, so obviously wasn't PH for in the first inning of either of those games. His strikeout on 7/15/77 ended the fifth, and he was double-switched out of the game after that (he was replaced at 1B by John Stearns, who'd PH for Pat Zachary earlier in the bottom of the fifth). He was a PH in the 7/28/79 game, and did not stay in.

EDIT: too slow
   31. Random Transaction Generator Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:11 PM (#4237566)
I think you can dump #1, 3, and 4 from the search.
I can't imagine that someone would pinch-hit for a player during an at-bat in the first or second inning of a game.
I also can't imagine it happened when the team had a big lead late in a game, so strike #2 from the search.

That leaves #5 and #6.

#5, Bobby finished the at-bat.

#6, it looks like Bobby pinch-hits for someone to start the at-bat, strikes out, and then gets replaced before he can go on the field.
Maybe he misremembers that event?

Edit: Way too slow. Let me grab a case of Cokes...
   32. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:12 PM (#4237567)
Man, I thought the Bobby V hiring was a sign of panic and a dumb idea, but he's been roughly one billion percent worse than I thought. An egomaniac who has been left behind by the American game. Sayonara, Bobby. Hope you win a couple more Japanese titles and leave the Red Sox the #### alone.
   33. Justin T steals bases with his bat Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:20 PM (#4237573)
I usually enjoy these sorts of hilariously terrible situations in sport. Ineptitude is at least as entertaining as excellence. But this piece of #### is too much and has been since April. I loathe him.
   34. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:20 PM (#4237574)
I think you can dump #1, 3, and 4 from the search.
I can't imagine that someone would pinch-hit for a player during an at-bat in the first or second inning of a game.


Unless he starts charging the mound after a wild pitch and gets ejected! Then you bring in good old Winston Llenas.

I now wish, instead of listing those players, I had asked for guesses as to which three players had pinch-hit for Bobby Valentine more than twice in his career. Bill Buckner, Ed Kranepool, and then how many clues would it take for someone to come up with Winston Llenas?
   35. Jim Wisinski Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:22 PM (#4237575)
Isn't by far the most likely explanation simply that Valentine is making #### up to justify his dumb decision?
   36. Walt Davis Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:27 PM (#4237578)
I can't imagine that someone would pinch-hit for a player during an at-bat in the first or second inning of a game.

Don't give Valentine ideas.

I could almost understand this move if it was earlier in the PA but bringing in a PH with 2 strikes is almost certain to be useless. And note that, this late in the game, I'd fully support him PHing for Iglesias from the start -- just because you're trying to find out who can play doesn't mean you stop trying to win games. One more PA won't make a difference in Iglesias's development and, even if he somehow makes it in the major, he's gonna get pinch-hit for all the time anyway.

Giving him and Kalish scattered starts over the remainder of the season is a fireable offense though. That puts the count at, what, 17?
   37. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4237580)
Valentine should have just said, "I was pinch hit for by Winston Llenas. Four times. It didn't ruin my confidence."
   38. Rough Carrigan Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:38 PM (#4237587)
I didn't know much about Valentine when the Sox hired him. But I thought he might be sharp and might be the right change in tone from Tito to get the best out of this team. Hell, he was adaptive enough to go over to Japan and succeed. I thought that should indicate that he can change his act to make things work in Boston. I wasn't his biggest booster but I thought there was a decent chance it would work.

I was wrong. I don't think he's been a terrible manager but I've never gotten the perception that he's particularly sharp and his weirdly narcissistic world view combined with a refusal/inability to simply say the politic thing to the press makes him much more trouble than he's worth.
   39. TerpNats Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:39 PM (#4237589)
Valentine should have just said, "I was pinch hit for by Winston Llenas. Four times. It didn't ruin my confidence."
He could also substitute "Bill Buckner" in that quote, but I'm not certain how Bosox fans would react to that name.
   40. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:52 PM (#4237592)
I can't imagine that someone would pinch-hit for a player during an at-bat in the first or second inning of a game.

Didn't Stengel do that for Clete Boyer in the World Series, no less?
   41. The District Attorney Posted: September 16, 2012 at 11:11 PM (#4237601)
The Bill James Guide to Baseball Managers (p. 168-9) details a June 10, 1954 game in which Stengel pinch-hit for Moose Skowron in the first inning.

Of course, finding a handful of cases in the history of baseball doesn't change the fact that the odds that it happened to Bobby Valentine on September 29, 1976 or June 5, 1977 are extremely low.
   42. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: September 16, 2012 at 11:18 PM (#4237603)
Wait a minute. Are you crying? You're crying! There is no crying in baseball! Rogers Hornsby was my manager and he called me a walking pile of pig---- and that's when my parents came up from Michigan to see me play, but did I cry? No! No! And you know why? Because there's no crying in baseball!
   43. snowles Posted: September 16, 2012 at 11:26 PM (#4237613)
man, a couple years ago all the minor league debate was whether Hech could be as good as Iglesias. Small sample size and all, but Iglesias looks awful. Hech hasn't been much better, but at least you can say it's his first exposure to the big leagues and he's been playing three infield positions.
   44. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 16, 2012 at 11:55 PM (#4237635)
I don't know if Retrosheet or BB-ref would indicate if someone came in to pinch-hit in the middle of an at-bat. But none of the 26 games I found by searching for "pinch hits for Bobby Valentine" contained such a note


No; you have to search for "pinch hits for Bob Valentine."

:-)

On a serious note, note that Valentine never said this happened in the majors.
   45. Belfry Bob Posted: September 17, 2012 at 01:04 AM (#4237663)
Was it something Bobby saw in the matchup after 4 pitches that he didn't like?

Nah, it was just when he happened to wake up.
   46. Walt Davis Posted: September 17, 2012 at 02:02 AM (#4237670)
Nah, it was just when he happened to wake up.

Finally an explanation that makes sense! Valentine was snoozing, he got woken up by the "roar" of the crowd after the steal, figured Ciriaco had just hit a double and thought he should pinch-hit for Iglesias.
   47. Toolsy McClutch Posted: September 17, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4238022)
I thought he might be sharp and might be the right change in tone from Tito to get the best out of this team. Hell, he was adaptive enough to go over to Japan and succeed. I thought that should indicate that he can change his act to make things work in Boston. I wasn't his biggest booster but I thought there was a decent chance it would work.

I was wrong. I don't think he's been a terrible manager but I've never gotten the perception that he's particularly sharp and his weirdly narcissistic world view combined with a refusal/inability to simply say the politic thing to the press makes him much more trouble than he's worth.


This.
   48. Barca Posted: December 13, 2012 at 05:56 PM (#4324285)
Crispix Attacks Posted "how many clues would it take for someone to come up with Winston Llenas?"

Zero, Llenas was pinch hit extraordinaire. He led the league in pinch hits in 1975.
The reason you don't know him is that he spent most of his time ripping up the Mexican League.

Winston is also notable for making 60 errors at 3B in a minor league season earning his release from
the KC A's. In his first game as an Angel, he made an error on the first ball hit to him and he hit
a 3 run HR to win the game. Number of errors, he made at 2B while in the majors? Zero!

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