While they're there, they should include some language about using Professor Farnsworth in close games. Preferably of the four-letter variety.

S-A-V-E ?

R-O-N-G

Phillips could not stop talking about the Joba rules last night.

Steve Phillips is a bad GM, and a worse announcer.

Oreh Hershiser was theorizing that the "Joba Rules" were publicized so Torre couldn't then burn out the hot hand with impunity. That's gotta be a little embarrassing for Joe.

If you don't trust a manager not to burn out a kid over six weeks, the correct answer's probably a new manager.

I don't understand why everyone is so positive that this is a battle between Torre and the front office (Cashman in particular). Isn't it actually possible that everyone is working together for the betterment of the teams present and future and not creating scenarios to undercut each other?

At work, I commonly disagree with my colleagues. But usually when that happens, we discuss it and come up with a solution that everyone thinks is beneficial to our company. I do not create bizarre situations where I marginalize my colleagues- that would be counter-productive. This seems like common sense and I hope that it is being applied here, by what appears to be somewhat reasonable people.

I know this drama makes for a more interesting story, but couldn't this be a creation of some sensationalistic writers and conspiracy theory loving fans.

The Yankees should have Alec Baldwin (who was attendence last night) to talk to the bullpen and give his famous "ABC - Always Be Closing" speech. I can picture him yelling at Farnsworth to "put that coffee down, coffee is for closers."

Isn't it actually possible that everyone is working together for the betterment of the teams present and future and not creating scenarios to undercut each other?

Yeah, especially if you actually read what Torre and Contreras are saying here.

Same thing with the Kennedy move. Torre said that he didn't think Kennedy would be one of the September callups. But that was before Mussina's latest melt-down. To hear some people tell it, Cashman brought up Kennedy to take Mussina's turn specifically to make Torre look foolish. Why can't it just be that watching a guy give up 20 runs in less than nine innings over three starts changed everyone's thinking?

I'm not worried. What does breaking the "Joba Rules" mean -- that Joba might pitch 6 or 7 innings per 7 days instead of 4 or 5 innings? Even in April & May, Torre didn't use Proctor for more than 6 or 7 innings in a 7-day stretch; same goes for Mike Stanton when he was the trusted 8th-inning set-up man for Mo. So Joba might pitch 26-28 innings in September instead of 20? That's not going to wreck his arm. And it should still leave him fresh for the postseason, if the Yankees get to the postseason. If the Yankees were really worried about Torre overusing Joba (and we don't know that), then I think the message was sent by the initial use of the Joba Rules.

I think that King is merely serving as a conduit for Torre’s public lobbying for a change.

Nothing to do with Joba but some praise for the Yankees:

Take today's lineup and stand it on its head.

CF Melky
2B Cano
1B Giambi
C Posada
LF Matsui

That would stack up well with pretty much any team's lineup 1-5, including the Red Sox. Then you get to the 6-9 hitters:

3B A-Rod
RF Abreau
SS Jeter
LF Damon

Before you realize that the lineup gets even better when you get to the end of it.

If you don't trust a manager not to burn out a kid over six weeks, the correct answer's probably a new manager.

True, but the real correct answer would be not to treat Torre like some worthless piece of #### whose job deserves to be in jeopardy every single game.

But I suppose that as long as Steinbrenner is above ground and breathing that's simply way too much to ask.

True, but the real correct answer would be not to treat Torre like some worthless piece of #### whose job deserves to be in jeopardy every single game.

A significant segment of Yankee fans treat him this way, and a certain segment of the press make a living complaining about him being treated this way, but I seriously doubt that he'd still be sitting in the Yankee dugout if he really was being treated this way. Read what he and other Yankee officials have actually said about the Joba rules, as opposed to what people around here seem to think was said, and show me the big disagreement or the terrible disrespect.

As you know, i.e., I agree w/you on this.

Oreh Hershiser was theorizing that the "Joba Rules" were publicized so Torre couldn't then burn out the hot hand with impunity. That's gotta be a little embarrassing for Joe.

The other theory they came up with is that Torre may well be in agreement with the Joba rules, and publicizing them keeps the press off Torre's back instead of asking "why did you go to Farnsworth instead of Joba?"

Now Chamberlain must rest 1 1/3 days before he can pitch again.

While I take a back seat to no one in my disdain for Steve Phillips, he actually said something that was both intelligible and intelligent last night when he pointed out that the resticted way that Chamberlain has been used just might have something to do with the impressive success that he's had.

EDIT: I would have liked to have seen him get the save today, since he's probably going to get two days off now anyway.

A significant segment of Yankee fans treat him this way, and a certain segment of the press make a living complaining about him being treated this way, but I seriously doubt that he'd still be sitting in the Yankee dugout if he really was being treated this way. Read what he and other Yankee officials have actually said about the Joba rules, as opposed to what people around here seem to think was said, and show me the big disagreement or the terrible disrespect.

Maybe so. But I think that his job was hanging by a thread earlier on in the season and the Yankees went on their big tear just in time.

Furthermore, I'm not 100% convinced that he's yet a lock to come back next season, especially if they don't make the playoffs. Because let's face it: with a payroll that big and a lineup like that, somebody is going to have to take the blame if that happens.

I'm not 100% convinced that he's yet a lock to come back next season, especially if they don't make the playoffs.

I think he's only about 25% to come back, even if they do make the playoffs. I think he's 100% to retire if they somehow manage to win it all. After all, his contract is up, he is 67 years old, and he has cancer. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if he were to retire. And again, if he really is constantly being treated the way you assume he is, why would he even want to come back?

I think that outside of LaRussa, Cox, and Scioscia, Torre has the securist job of any manager. The media likes to make a big deal about his job being on the line but time and again it has proven to be fluff and no substance. He could very well decide to hang 'em up anyway, but I doubt he will get fired.

two other notes on this afternoon's game -- yankees trusted someone other than rivera to close out Bosox game. granted, 5-run lead... also, I think today makes A-Rod 20 for 22 in steals.

I figure Torre has a lifetime job with the Yankees. When he retires as manager, he'll get some front office consultant position or something.

Yes, A-Rod is 20-for-22 in steals this season. He's just having an outstanding all-around season.

Which will make it that much more disappointing when Joe Borowski wins the AL MVP.

Don't front on Borowski....did you know Cleveland hasn't lost a game all season when he got the save? Pretty impressive.

As a non-Yankee fan anything that keeps Torre and especially Cashman around for another season is good news. Only Cashman's (and to a less extent) Torre's incompetence is keeping the Yankees from winning the World Series every year. I mean, how bad are you at your job when people are hoping that a 21 year middle reliever is regarded as the season savior? Seriously, I think Mojo the Helper Monkey could do a better job, as long as you keep him away from the doughnuts as you don't want your GM to just lay around, struggling to breathe.

you don't want your GM to just lay around, struggling to breathe.

I dunno, the Phillies seem content with Pat Gillick...

In-thread Poll: What is worse for a pitchers arm?
A)Joe Torre
B)Joe Girardi
C)An Axe

D) Dusty Baker.

It looks like I was correct:

Manager Joe Torre had said Chamberlain would need two days off before pitching two innings. After the game, he said the rules had changed to consider pitch count and feedback from Chamberlain. G.M. Brian Cashman, who is trying hard to protect the future of the Yankees’ best prospects, differed.

“I don’t want to get into specifics, but from my perspective, we have not deviated from the plan,” Cashman said. The only difference he has with Torre, he said, is this: “He seems to want to talk about it. I don’t.”

I'm not worried. What does breaking the "Joba Rules" mean -- that Joba might pitch 6 or 7 innings per 7 days instead of 4 or 5 innings? Even in April & May, Torre didn't use Proctor for more than 6 or 7 innings in a 7-day stretch; same goes for Mike Stanton when he was the trusted 8th-inning set-up man for Mo. So Joba might pitch 26-28 innings in September instead of 20? That's not going to wreck his arm. And it should still leave him fresh for the postseason, if the Yankees get to the postseason.

Well, Joba's pitched 10 innings in 3 weeks. OK, doesn't sound like a lot to us human beings, but that's a workload of about 85 IP a year which is a heavy reliever workload in today's game. 20 IP in a month, much less 26-27? I'm all for the idea that relievers can handle heavier workloads than they're given these days, but that is abusive -- I mean that's a Mike Marshall style workload (120-160 IP a year pace). So I'm assuming you pulled those numbers out your butt without thinking about them.

Yes, one month is not a season and maybe 20-25 IP in a month won't be harmful -- but I bet it would make him far less than fresh for the postseason.

Anybody want to pull out any recent examples of relievers throwing 20-25 IP in a month? In Sept? On playoff teams and see how they did after? Rivera's probably pitched 20-25 in some playoff series ... but then he's a freak! :-)

Note the "day off" rule might actually be increasing his workload. Torre seems determined to use him as much as he can, when he can ... as opposed to, say, high leverage situations which you might go 3-4 games without having any. In short, the rules almost seem to make it certain that Torre will pitch him at least 1 IP every other day.

As long as the Jabba rules continue to ordain that Princess Leia remain in her metal bikini, I have no problem.

Princess Leia has more balls than JD Drew

Good for Cashman. It's heartening to see him think about the team's future when there's not historically much reward for thinking more than six months in advance in that job! I've never understood Torre's use & abuse of middle relievers.

So... is "George King" a real name, or a pseudonymical jab at Steinbrenner?


And should "pseudonymical" be a word?

I've never understood Torre's use & abuse of middle relievers.

When it's Tanyon Sturtze, smoke him while you got him. Can't really explain his use of To, Gordon in the 2004 ALCS, though. That was awfully dumb.

On Joe Torre's record forever, in my opinion, is his handling of Paul Quantrill. This guy was a very good reliever (sometimes excellent) over a very long time. He didn't have an ERA+ as bad as he did under Joe in the previous eight years, including twice over 200. The commonality, if you look at the numbers, is in the innings pitched. He didn't pitch as much in his entire career except when he was a starter.

Sure, he could have simply aged overnight and fallen off the cliff - it's happened before to relievers in their mid-thirties. But I'd have to be convinced that it was this - I believe it was overuse.

Quantrill hurt his knee on Opening Day in Japan. Torre kept using him like everything was fine.