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Thursday, November 19, 2009

Boston Globe: Bay rejects Sox’ offer

Sports Illustrated’s Jon Heyman is reporting outfielder Jason Bay has rejected an initial offer from the Red Sox.

Heyman cites anonymous sources saying the first offer was for four years at “close to $60 million.”

Looks like it’s time for the hit offseason crime drama: Character Assassination: Lucchino Style

I don’t feel very optimistic he’ll be signing with the Sox when I read this. Who will be the first to that Bay’s a clubhouse cancer? Place your bets now.

The Piehole of David Wells Posted: November 19, 2009 at 07:04 PM | 41 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: red sox

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: November 19, 2009 at 08:58 PM (#3391638)
Huh? This rejection shouldn't have surprised anybody - nothing's changed since yesterday.
   2. aleskel Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:02 PM (#3391647)
Reject the first offer, reject the first offer, reject the first offer

"Can I offer you a drink?"

"Sorry Mr. Burns, no deal!"
   3. Tripon Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:03 PM (#3391650)
Bay signs for ONE BILLION DOLLARS.
   4. Randy Jones Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:05 PM (#3391653)
Bay signs for ONE BILLION DOLLARS.


I haven't really looked at any projections for Bay, but at first glance that seems like an overpay.
   5. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:06 PM (#3391657)
Huh? This rejection shouldn't have surprised anybody - nothing's changed since yesterday.


I'm not surprised by the rejection. I'm surprised that the character assassination has begun so quickly.
   6. BarrettsHiddenBall Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:09 PM (#3391662)
I think it's starting to sound like the character assassination has begun.

Based on what? The only FO quote I see is Epstein saying that "It's not a surprise that a player that's gone this far wants to see what's out there."
   7. rr Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:11 PM (#3391666)
Who will be the first to that Bay’s a clubhouse cancer?


That is actually "clubhouse cancre."
   8. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:13 PM (#3391669)
Based on what?


The anonymous quote of the salary dollars and the length of contract. I'm not saying this report is character assassination, but now it's out there as a fact that he rejected what [edited:]Randy (above) remarked as an overly generous contract. When/if he signs for more, the assassination machine will have been pumped and primed by this report.

It just looks like the pattern we've seen so many times. The Sox don't want a player, or they want him at a certain price, and in order to maintain a perception that they did their due diligence, they offer a pro forma contract. Same thing happened with Nomar, right?
   9. Nasty Nate Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:14 PM (#3391671)
Yeah, Piehole, what are you talking about?

edit: I now see post 8. I think it is just as likely that the anonymous money figures came from Bay's agent, especially because it is Heyman who got the tip.
   10. Randy Jones Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:14 PM (#3391672)
a fact that he rejected what Ryan (above) remarked as an overly generous contract.


Again! Damn you people, I am not a dirty Canadian. Also, my post was a response to #3.
   11. rr Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:14 PM (#3391674)
Yeah, Piehole, what are you talking about?


heh.
   12. Dock Ellis Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:15 PM (#3391677)
It's not like it's a take-it-or-leave-it offer. Bay's merely exploring what else is out there, and he would be remiss if he didn't.

Also, what's the definition of "close to 50 million?" 45 million? I don't blame him for seeing if he can do better than 11.25 a year.
   13. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:16 PM (#3391678)
Again! Damn you people, I am not a dirty Canadian. Also, my post was a response to #4.


Fixed, sorry.
   14. RJ in TO Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:17 PM (#3391679)
a fact that he rejected what Ryan (above) remarked as an overly generous contract.

Again! Damn you people, I am not a dirty Canadian. Also, my post was a response to #4.


And I haven't said a damn thing in this thread. Besides, I hate the Red Sox - why would I want to help them out by pointing out a mistake?
   15. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:17 PM (#3391680)
Also, what's the definition of "close to 50 million?" 45 million? I don't blame him for seeing if he can do better than 11.25 a year.

It says "close to 60 million". $14 million/year isn't small potatoes, but he might be able to do better, even in this market.
   16. Randy Jones Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:18 PM (#3391684)
Besides, I hate the Red Sox


Well, I also hate the Red Sox, but I don't see why that matters in this case.
   17. RJ in TO Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:19 PM (#3391686)
$14 million/year isn't small potatoes, but he might be able to do better, even in this market.


Out of curiosity, with who? As near as I can figure, the market for Bay at that cost is basically the Yankees and the Red Sox, and I think the Yankees are a lot more likely to chase Holliday.
   18. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:19 PM (#3391687)
I think it is just as likely that the anonymous money figures came from Bay's agent, especially because it is Heyman who got the tip.


I hope you're right.... I would love to somehow get Bay and Holliday and force Papi out of the lineup. If Papi returns to form, he might be tradeable.
   19. RJ in TO Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:20 PM (#3391690)
Well, I also hate the Red Sox, but I don't see why that matters in this case.


Well, at least you're doing something right. As to why it matters, I'm really not sure - I can't quite tell what I was thinking when I typed that last one up.
   20. Dock Ellis Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:24 PM (#3391701)
Dewey, thanks. Silly me!
   21. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:26 PM (#3391705)
Out of curiosity, with who?

Jeez, I'm not sure. If you believe the owners, no free agents will be signed at any price.
   22. Greg K Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:49 PM (#3391746)
I think the Yankees are a lot more likely to chase Holliday.

Did you miss the memo? The Yankees have no interest in Holliday. None at all.
   23. Young Blasarius yonder Posted: November 19, 2009 at 09:58 PM (#3391763)
Did you miss the memo? The Yankees have no interest in Holliday. None at all.


Neither do the Angels apparently.
   24. villageidiom Posted: November 19, 2009 at 10:34 PM (#3391813)
From the Heyman article at SI:
The Cardinals are one team that's said they will consider Holliday but not Bay.
Clearly the Cardinals are acting here as a media mouthpiece for the Red Sox front office. Take this as a sign that the Red Sox are trying to unload Bay, and are looking to tear down public opinion of Bay so they'll look good when they drop him.
   25. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 19, 2009 at 10:37 PM (#3391817)
Besides, I hate the Red Sox


Well, I also hate the Red Sox, but I don't see why that matters in this case.


Huh. Are you sure you aren't a dirty Canadian?
   26. Rally Posted: November 19, 2009 at 10:38 PM (#3391819)
From that Angels link it looks like Figgins might just get a lowball offer they expect him to pass on.
   27. Darnell McDonald had a farm Posted: November 19, 2009 at 11:48 PM (#3391882)
4 and $60M is too much but they knew Bay would say no thanks, well-played by Team GM. They can look the wolfpack straight in the teeth and say "Hey, we tried" when they throw Hermida's platoon-mate-to-be-determined out there on opening day
   28. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: November 20, 2009 at 12:02 AM (#3391892)
From that Angels link it looks like Figgins might just get a lowball offer they expect him to pass on.
Yeah, especially when he follows that up with:
"Eventually, Brandon [Wood] is going to get his 600, 800, 1,000 at-bats. He's done everything he can in our minor league system. He's been a very patient guy. ... I can't tell you he'll be guaranteed a job. He's one of the players that's earned an opportunity to try to win a job."
So it looks like Wood is the heir apparent for next season. Good news for my BBTF keeper team.

On John Lackey and Chone Figgins: "We're at $101 million now. We were at $113 million last year. If you look at what they're asking, you can't bring both of them back."
Given that the Angels are projecting a 2010 payroll close to what they had this past season, I'm not sure they'll be able to make Lackey any sort of offer at all, especially when Moreno's also saying stuff like, "We'd like to have a power bat, a starter and another bullpen guy." $12-$15 million per won't be enough to fill the spots they need to fill.
   29. ColonelTom Posted: November 20, 2009 at 12:02 AM (#3391894)
Bay's defense kills his value unless he's used as a DH. If a team pays him $15M per year to DH he will be worth it. With a glove? Not so much.
   30. ColonelTom Posted: November 20, 2009 at 12:08 AM (#3391900)
   31. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: November 20, 2009 at 01:10 AM (#3391935)
Clearly the Cardinals are acting here as a media mouthpiece for the Red Sox front office.


Touché. All I'm saying is it's beginning to look like every other Red Sox contract negotiation with a star who was leaving.
   32. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 20, 2009 at 01:28 AM (#3391939)
Bay's defense kills his value unless he's used as a DH. If a team pays him $15M per year to DH he will be worth it. With a glove? Not so much.

I disagree - it's within a few runs either way. Not to mention, he *can* play LF (unlike, say, Ortiz), and there's value in being above replacement level, even if it's by very little.
   33. BarrettsHiddenBall Posted: November 20, 2009 at 01:46 AM (#3391944)
Touché. All I'm saying is it's beginning to look like every other Red Sox contract negotiation with a star who was leaving.


To be fair, that 4/60 number does seem really familiar. Nomar extension offer in ST '03?
   34. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: November 20, 2009 at 01:58 AM (#3391950)
I don't think there has been character assassination, but I am almost certain that the Red Sox since the end of the season have let it be known to the media that they don't care for Bay's defense. Writers, talk radio hosts have all come to the conclusion that Bay is no great shakes in the outfield. This is after spending the season saying he was above average.
   35. Paxton Crawford Ranch Posted: November 20, 2009 at 08:08 AM (#3392120)
All I'm saying is it's beginning to look like every other Red Sox contract negotiation with a star who was leaving.

But haven't those negotiations generally worked out for the Sox? The team offered enough to not offend the player (and his media minions), while not bidding against themselves. The Nomar offer was fair, but a long ways away from what his trinity-mates were getting. Obviously, they're happy he didn't accept.

Amid the World Series glow and placards of "Re-Sign Lowell!" the Sox held firm and wouldn't give Mikey Doubles a fourth year, even when the Phillies did. Maybe they shouldn't have re-signed him period (although you've still got to credibly explain what the team does at 1B/3B without him), but they were certainly right not to give him four years.

The Pedro offer started at two years with a vesting option and eventually got to three guaranteed, but they were never going to match the four years the Mets gave. I don't remember the team making any sort of effort at all to retain Lowe. Arbitration to get the picks, but that's all. We'll never know what would've happened if he stayed, but park factors be damned, I think those mid-threes ERAs he put up in LA would've been steady fives in Boston.

Varitek is the one situation where the club probably got played a little and paid more than they had to. It's hard to see him getting 4/40 anywhere else. But Fangraphs values him at $37.6M over the length of the deal, so it's not like the Sox got hosed.

Varitek did best by taking the Sox' offer, Nomar should have taken it, Pedro and Lowe smartly followed the money and Lowell probably should have. It'll be interesting to see what kind of deal Bay lands on the open market. I don't see any way he gets a lower AAV than the $15M the Sox offered him, and I think he'll get five, or if Sabean's hearing footsteps, six years.

It's been a great season-and-a-half and I'll miss the way he could just flick a ball and you'd know off the bat it was going over the Monster.
   36. tjm1 Posted: November 20, 2009 at 09:06 AM (#3392124)
Varitek did best by taking the Sox' offer, Nomar should have taken it, Pedro and Lowe smartly followed the money and Lowell probably should have.


Lowell may actually like playing in Boston. The fans in Philly would have treated him mercilessly if he had played for them they way he has since signing that deal. The fans in Boston knew he was a good guy struggling through injuries and have been supportive. He seems like a sharp, financially responsible kind of guy, and another $10 million ($5 million after taxes) probably doesn't make much difference in terms of what he will do with his life after baseball. To say he should have gone to Philly is probably true if money is what's most important to Mike Lowell, but probably not true in reality.
   37. villageidiom Posted: November 20, 2009 at 12:02 PM (#3392145)
Touché. All I'm saying is it's beginning to look like every other Red Sox contract negotiation with a star who was leaving.
You make it sound like leaked details of a spurned contract offer are unique to the Red Sox. That's all we have here, and it's like the majority of FA negotiation around the league. It might eventually take the turn you suggest, but these days there's a lot less evidence of that kind of thing.
   38. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: November 20, 2009 at 02:06 PM (#3392211)
That is actually "clubhouse cancre."

I thought it was "chancre".
   39. Rally Posted: November 20, 2009 at 02:34 PM (#3392238)
especially when Moreno's also saying stuff like, "We'd like to have a power bat, a starter and another bullpen guy." $12-$15 million per won't be enough to fill the spots they need to fill.


I suppose if they can work out a deal with Lackey in the 16-17 per year range, they won't treat the 12-15 million room as a hard salary cap. You might be able to get a starter, power bat, and bullpen guy for 15 million, but not through the free agent market. Best to look at teams that might try to dump arbitration eligible players on the cheap.

Boston got Jeremy Hermida for basically nothing, and he'll probably get 4-5 million next year. Last year the Marlins dumped Josh Willingham for very little, and he's not expensive at all for a guy who can give you a .500 SLG.

Plus, for some reason I've always loved the idea of a former catcher becoming a power hitting left fielder.
   40. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: November 20, 2009 at 04:30 PM (#3392402)
You make it sound like leaked details of a spurned contract offer are unique to the Red Sox. That's all we have here, and it's like the majority of FA negotiation around the league.


I don't think I said that, and I didn't mean to imply it. I'm not really concerned about leaked contract details. There's just a narrative of Red Sox contract negotiations that really gets nasty, and I don't appreciate it. It begins with leaked contract details, and then it gets progressively less civil, until we find out that the player was a me-first, greedy, unsportsmanlike ####### who was hell-bent on leaving Boston no matter what. If Bay leaves and the local media don't tear him a new one with anonymous quotes from team sources, then I will admit I overreacted.
   41. Nasty Nate Posted: November 20, 2009 at 04:37 PM (#3392406)
There's just a narrative of Red Sox contract negotiations that really gets nasty, and I don't appreciate it.


fair enough, but post #5 makes it seem like the nasty part has already begun when all there is is a leaked offer (which could have come from anyone).

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