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Monday, January 18, 2010

BP Unfiltered: Carroll: The Lincecum Lottery

While most fans wait on pitchers and catchers, people inside baseball (and the kind of obsessives here at BP) are waiting to see “the number.” What will Tim Lincecum and his representatives ask for in arbitration? Speculation has been rampant, ranging from $8m to $22m.

No real analysis in this one, but a fun little game anyway. Lincecum is, if not the best, then certainly the most-accoladed player to hit his first year of arbitration.

I’m betting $14 million, based on no reasons whatever.

Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: January 18, 2010 at 12:37 PM | 38 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: awards, giants

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   1. heyyoo Posted: January 18, 2010 at 02:42 PM (#3440091)
12
   2. ekogan Posted: January 18, 2010 at 02:47 PM (#3440092)
DR. EVIL
you'll have to pay me...ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

The UN representatives are confused. Number Two COUGHS.

DR. EVIL
(frustrated)
Sorry. ONE-HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS!
   3. Darren Posted: January 18, 2010 at 02:52 PM (#3440096)
Pujols asked for 10 in 04. 12-14 sounds about right.

Alternatively, going by the 40/60/80 model, he's projected to be worth about 6 wins by Chone. So his value on the open market at $3.5 mil/win would be around $21 mil, and 40% of that would be $8.4, which sounds too low to me.
   4. The Most Interesting Man In The World Posted: January 18, 2010 at 02:53 PM (#3440097)
I'll say they avoid arbitration w/ a 3 yr 49M deal. At the last minute.
   5. Darren Posted: January 18, 2010 at 02:57 PM (#3440099)
It's probably end up at $51.1111111111.
   6. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Molina Posted: January 18, 2010 at 03:23 PM (#3440111)
The other side of the coin will be what the Giants offer in arbitration.

Giants $12,000,000
Lincecum $16,000,000

If the Giants are smart, this never gets to arbitration. Therefore, it'll probably get to arbitration.
   7. Don Lock Posted: January 18, 2010 at 03:48 PM (#3440122)
"most-accoladed player" Does this writer speak English?
   8. Nathan Kunkel Posted: January 18, 2010 at 04:01 PM (#3440129)
Two CYs in a row; box office draw. Lincecum holds all the chips.

So why WOULDN'T he ask for $20 million? I can conjure up no good reason not to outside of thinking the media backlash will somehow be damaging. But if I'm him, with that body, and knowing how pitching careers are often dramatically cut short, ask for the money you can.

And he CAN ask for 20.
   9. Guapo Posted: January 18, 2010 at 04:03 PM (#3440131)
Lincecum is, if not the best, then certainly the most-accoladed player to hit his first year of arbitration.

Don Mattingly, 1987
   10. Teheran's Uranium Enriched Missiles Posted: January 18, 2010 at 04:09 PM (#3440134)
I say, Lincecum asks for $8 mil, and a medical exemption to grow and smoke pot.
   11. Darren Posted: January 18, 2010 at 04:12 PM (#3440139)
He wouldn't ask for $20 mil., presumably, if he thinks the team will come in somewhere close to what an arbitrator will give him. I'd say the team offering $10 mil would have a much better argument than he would at $20 mil.

I also don't see how he holds the chips. He's not going to sit out the season--he needs them (slightly) more than they need him.
   12. Teheran's Uranium Enriched Missiles Posted: January 18, 2010 at 04:13 PM (#3440140)
I also don't see how he holds the chips. He's not going to sit out the season--he needs them (slightly) more

Ahh, another weed joke!
   13. bunyon Posted: January 18, 2010 at 04:15 PM (#3440143)
I say, Lincecum asks for $8 mil, and a medical exemption to grow and smoke pot.


Sounds good to me. He should ask for 5 mil and sole ownership of Alcatraz Island. He can then declare indepdence and legalize pot in his new nation. Other than the immigration troubles, things will go swimmingly.
   14. Nathan Kunkel Posted: January 18, 2010 at 04:32 PM (#3440166)
"he needs them (slightly) more than they need him"

The fans will FRY the Giant's management if they don't sign him. Totally not researched, but I've got to believe if he performs like 2008/2009 he's worth 20 to the team. However, to shamelessly help MY thinking, let's go with 18.

ANNNND say the split is 10 and 18. If I'm his agent I'm highlighting what Clemens got for a half season, checking in on CC and Burnett, mentioning Zambrano, mentioning BARRY FREAKIN' ZITO, suggesting Johan Santana. Tim.Is.The.Best.NL.Pitcher. Just look at the CYs.

Pay up.
   15. Mr. Bouton's Greenie Fetish Posted: January 18, 2010 at 05:37 PM (#3440211)
If I'm his agent I'm highlighting what Clemens got for a half season, checking in on CC and Burnett, mentioning Zambrano, mentioning BARRY FREAKIN' ZITO, suggesting Johan Santana. Tim.Is.The.Best.NL.Pitcher. Just look at the CYs.

Which you could do but not much of it would matter. Arbitration is all about comparisons to players with similar service time. So some of his comps are:

Jake Peavy ($2.5mm
Joe Blanton ($3.7mm)
Roy Halladay ($3.8mm)
Felix Hernandez ($3.8mm)
Brandon Webb ($4.5mm)
Roy Oswalt ($5.9mm)
CC Sabathia ($5.3mm)
Carlos Zambrano ($6.5mm)

Granted Lincecum destroys many of his comps above. But I don't see how he pulls down $20mm.
   16. ColonelTom Posted: January 18, 2010 at 05:42 PM (#3440214)
Pujols asked for 10 in 04. 12-14 sounds about right.

Agreed - they'll probably settle in the $10-11M range.
   17. Danny Posted: January 18, 2010 at 05:48 PM (#3440216)
Arbitration is all about comparisons to players with similar service time.


Not necessarily. From the CBA, note the last sentence:

The criteria will be the quality of the Player’s contribution
to his Club during the past season (including but not limited to his
overall performance, special qualities of leadership and public
appeal), the length and consistency of his career contribution, the
record of the Player’s past compensation, comparative baseball
salaries (see paragraph (13) below for confidential salary data),
the existence of any physical or mental defects on the part of the
Player, and the recent performance record of the Club including
but not limited to its League standing and attendance as an indication
of public acceptance (subject to the exclusion stated in
subparagraph (b)(i) below). Any evidence may be submitted
which is relevant to the above criteria, and the arbitration panel
shall assign such weight to the evidence as shall appear appropriate
under the circumstances. The arbitration panel shall,
except for a Player with five or more years of Major League service,
give particular attention, for comparative salary purposes, to
the contracts of Players with Major League service not exceeding
one annual service group above the Player’s annual service
group. This shall not limit the ability of a Player or his represen-
tative, because of special accomplishment, to argue the equal relevance
of salaries of Players without regard to service, and the
arbitration panel shall give whatever weight to such argument as
is deemed appropriate.
   18. dlf Posted: January 18, 2010 at 05:55 PM (#3440220)
Which you could do but not much of it would matter. Arbitration is all about comparisons to players with similar service time.


Yes, but ...

When Ryan Howard went through the arbitration process, the comps he and his agent presented to the panel included a lot of players who had significantly more service time. The reigning MVP listed a lot of the other MVPs active in the game as well as some of the best sluggers of recent -- and not so recent -- past. The panel agreed and awarded Howard the player's requested figure rather than the team's offered one.

The CBA expressly allows players (or teams) to use comparators who have different service time and, if those players are truly more representative, will be considered by the panel.

edit: a few sips of a cola based product to Danny
   19. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: January 18, 2010 at 06:39 PM (#3440256)
"most-accoladed player" Does this writer speak English?


Won a few awards for my mastery of it, as a matter of fact. Why don't you take your false sense of superiority, stick it in the same pocket of your briefcase where you keep that marble-sized brain of yours, and toss the whole shebang in a volcano?
   20. Darren Posted: January 18, 2010 at 06:47 PM (#3440264)
When Ryan Howard went through the arbitration process, the comps he and his agent presented to the panel included a lot of players who had significantly more service time. The reigning MVP listed a lot of the other MVPs active in the game as well as some of the best sluggers of recent -- and not so recent -- past. The panel agreed and awarded Howard the player's requested figure rather than the team's offered one.


But Howard still only got $10 mil--2 years ago. He may have used MVPs as comps, but he did so while arguing for a salar that was about 1/2 of theirs. His argument, IIRC, was also based on the idea that they had kept him in the minors too long.

Howard is probably another good data point. He won and got $10 mil. I think that is more info in favor of Lincecum asking for 12-14.
   21. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: January 18, 2010 at 07:05 PM (#3440283)
So why WOULDN'T he ask for $20 million? I can conjure up no good reason not to outside of thinking the media backlash will somehow be damaging. But if I'm him, with that body, and knowing how pitching careers are often dramatically cut short, ask for the money you can.


It's not going to happen in this case because San Francisco has the money, but what if Lincecum was on a truly small market team such as the Pirates or Marlins and he aimed this high with his demands? Would we be hearing about trade rumors about now?
   22. Nathan Kunkel Posted: January 18, 2010 at 07:09 PM (#3440289)
"But Howard still only got $10 mil"

Howard got what he asked for.

I don't expect Tim to ask for 18 mill. I'm just asking 'why not'? Why isn't he worth more than Zito? As much as Zambrano? And if the answer is, "he is", then why not consider asking for it.

to recap, I don't think The Team of Tim will ask for more than $15 mill ; )
   23. Darren Posted: January 18, 2010 at 07:17 PM (#3440297)
"But Howard still only got $10 mil"

Howard got what he asked for.


Which was only $10 mil--nowhere near what an MVP is worth on the open market. So his win tells us very little about whether his using other MVPs as comps was successful. It also tells us, I think, that his reps saw the limitations to their argument.

I don't expect Tim to ask for 18 mill. I'm just asking 'why not'? Why isn't he worth more than Zito? As much as Zambrano? And if the answer is, "he is", then why not consider asking for it.


I think the answer is pretty clear, though. It's because of his service time. It's the same reason that Evan Longoria settled for his contract and Dustin Pedroia for his. The system doesn't allow them to get the same value as guys who have put in 6+ years.
   24. asinwreck Posted: January 18, 2010 at 07:18 PM (#3440300)
Not sure why Lincecum would ask for less than Zito's salary. Take the highest-paid pitcher on your own team, compare the statistics and awards, and you have yourself a pretty strong case. Anything less than $18 million would surprise me.
   25. Nathan Kunkel Posted: January 18, 2010 at 07:24 PM (#3440305)
"Which was only $10 mil--nowhere near what an MVP is worth on the open market."

Ya think? ; )
   26. Rich Rifkin Posted: January 18, 2010 at 07:42 PM (#3440314)
From some arbitration maven who seems to know what he's talking about:
In deciding to award the higher or lower salary, the panel may consider the following criteria:
(1) the player’s contribution to the club in terms of performance and leadership;
(2) the club’s record and its attendance;
(3) any and all of the player’s “special accomplishments,” including All-Star game appearances, awards won, and postseason performance;
(4) the salaries of comparable players in the player’s service-time class and, for players with less than five years of service, the class one year ahead of him.
What distinguishes Lincecum from every pitcher with his comp service time is his "special accomplishments" -- that is, two Cy Youngs. It's also true that attendance rises substantially when Lincecum pitches. That should add to the amount he gets.

I say he asks for and gets $17 million. At $282 an ounce, Timmy could buy 3,768 pounds of pot, unless he decides to pay income tax.
   27. tshipman Posted: January 18, 2010 at 07:47 PM (#3440319)
Timmy could buy 3,768 pounds of pot, unless he decides to pay income tax.


Yeah, but after the cops confiscate the three thousand pounds of pot, I'm sure they'll declare the street value of the one ton of weed as being 50 million dollars. After the thousand pounds of ganja gets locked away in the evidence locker, I'm sure Lincecum will regret the money he spent on the 200 pounds of hashish. He'll probably regret it even more when the 100 pounds of pot gets destroyed in an incinerator.
   28. Rich Rifkin Posted: January 18, 2010 at 07:57 PM (#3440326)
After the thousand pounds of ganja gets locked away in the evidence locker ...

I've seen stories on the TV news where they show CAMP authorities saving America's misguided youth by torching hundreds of pot plants they found growing on public lands somewhere. What I wonder is if any of those cops, exposed to the smoke from those great infernos, have ever tested positive for THC? Have any been fired due to the positive tests?
   29. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: January 18, 2010 at 08:05 PM (#3440334)
From the CAMP site:

"The 2006 CAMP accomplishments include:

Seizure of 1,675,681 plants worth more than $6.7 billion, setting a new record"

Yet another example of the misguided benchmarks used in the war on drugs.
   30. Darren Posted: January 18, 2010 at 08:13 PM (#3440343)
Can't Timmy grow a certain amount in CA if he gets a prescription for anxiety or some such?
   31. Ron Johnson Posted: January 18, 2010 at 08:38 PM (#3440377)
Many moons ago I worked security at the Bureau of Dangerous Drugs. One Friday long after everybody else had gone home there was a call from a police force (Sherbrooke, if it matters) looking for permission to destroy a huge pot seizure.

My actual response wasn't that interesting since the post orders anticipated something like this (somebody who can authorize this is on call), but as I'm sure you can imagine the temptation for some kind of smart-ass response was huge.
   32. Walt Davis Posted: January 18, 2010 at 08:38 PM (#3440378)
We'll see what they ask for but I put him at roughly $12 M this year when it all shakes out, with the notion of 12/16/20 over his 3 arb years under the assumption that he'd get Sabathia money if he was an FA. It's inconceivable to me that he won't set a new record for a 1st year arb player unless it's part of a huge, back-loaded buyout (and this is when the Cards bought out Albert).
   33. Joe OBrien Posted: January 18, 2010 at 08:50 PM (#3440390)
According to local media, Lincecum isn't interested in a long term deal.

It makes sense from the standpoint of having been doubted his entire professional and amateur career. He probably wouldn't agree with the team's assessment of his injury risk. Instead, I think he'll get a great deal of satisfaction out of going year to year, with his fate in his control, and proving the doubters wrong.
   34. Rich Rifkin Posted: January 18, 2010 at 09:12 PM (#3440416)
We'll see what they ask for but I put him at roughly $12 M this year when it all shakes out

If you are suggesting he buys shake, then he could probably afford 10,000 pounds for $17 million. But as a major league ballplayer, smoking shake is seen as déclassé. I'm sure Timmy would not want to fall out of favor with his friends and colleagues in the big leagues. As seen in this picture, Tim is exclusively a bud man.
   35. Nathan Kunkel Posted: January 18, 2010 at 09:27 PM (#3440435)
Rich, u r riffin'
   36. Nathan Kunkel Posted: January 18, 2010 at 09:35 PM (#3440438)
23 mill, anyone?

From MercuryNews.COM:

"The $10 million figure could be a starting point for Lincecum, who made $650,000 last season. Interestingly, the Giants could have chosen any salary they wished for 2010 if they had only waited 10 more days before calling up Lincecum in May 2007.

Lincecum has accrued two years, 148 days of service time since his major league debut. According to the basic agreement, players in the top 17 percent of service time between two and three years are eligible for arbitration. Lincecum cleared the bar by nine days.

Those nine days are about to cost the Giants $10 million or more. While it's unlikely, there has been speculation that Thurman could file for $23 million — matching CC Sabathia's record salary for a pitcher — and have grounds to defend it. That's because Lincecum's special accomplishments allow Thurman to compare him to the game's highest-paid pitchers regardless of service time."

edit: true figures to be released tomorrow
   37. Walt Davis Posted: January 19, 2010 at 03:48 AM (#3440715)
According to local media, Lincecum isn't interested in a long term deal.

That's what they all say until the truckload of money pulls up ... unless they don't think the truck is coming in which case they say they're interested in a long-term deal.

Not that they will but if the Giants offered 6/$110 (12/15/18/20/22/23) he'd be a fool not to take it.

However, I didn't realize he was a super-2 not a full-3. That does change things and I'm not so sure he'll set a "first year" record now ... though I'm certain he'll set a super-2 record this year (I have no idea what that record is ... was that Howard?) and a full-3+ record next year.

If we're talking 4 years of arb, 10/14/18/22 (year by year) seems a reasonable guess to me; maybe as low as 10/13/16/19. I could see a full-arb buyout plus one year of FA somewhere in the $75-85 range. Anything less and the Giants are doing real well; anything more and Lincecum should jump on it. At these prices, it's hard to see the Giants having much incentive not to go year by year.
   38. Tripon Posted: January 19, 2010 at 04:03 AM (#3440729)
   39. Tripon Posted: January 19, 2010 at 04:08 AM (#3440732)
Howard was a super two when he set the record.

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