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Thursday, July 08, 2010

BP Unfiltered:  The Suggestion Box Is Open


I'd like to know what you think of BP just past the midpoint of 2010. I'd like to know what you like, what you don't like, what you would like to see more of, what you would like to see less of. I can't promise I'll be able to respond to each comment but I will read them all. What I can promise is that I and the rest of us here will take your feedback into great consideration as we continue to strive to make BP the type of site that baseball fans feel they absolutely must visit every day.



BP staff member Joe Sheehan

That, more or less, is why forums are basically a non-starter. All cost, no revenue.

TangoTiger

Fangraphs has forums, and they don't charge their readers. Primer has forums, and they don't charge their readers. You've got to have a better reason for not having a forum considering that you are already charging readers.

BP staff member Joe Sheehan

How about this?

I've done sports content as a business for 15 years. By any standard I'm one of a small number of people to do it successfully outside the mainstream, I've played most of the roles one can play and holy god I'm sick of listening to you act as if you've had 1% of the success the people you criticize have had. How about you grant that I might know what I'm talking about, given that sports content has been my career, without me having to make a business case to someone with no standing to ask for one?

Fangraphs, as far as I can tell, is financed by a rich grandpa. Primer/BTF/Newsstand/Brand of the Day isn't a business in any real sense of the word, it's r.s.b ported to the Web and stripped of its spark. That you would make these comparisons shows just how little you understand of Prospectus, how little you've ever understood.

Stick to being an academic, Thomas. Stick to your sycophant-laden fora and your above-it-all mien. Stop jumping in here and cheap-shotting a business that you've never comprehended on your best day.
Dan Szymborski Posted: July 08, 2010 at 07:51 PM | 799 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   201. CrosbyBird Posted: July 09, 2010 at 04:55 AM (#3583138)
The formatting is fine. The quoting posts makes it a lot easier to figure out who you are talking to and to respond to a post at a later date without it getting lost.


The formatting is a huge aesthetic issue if you care about efficient content delivery.

As an example, check out this link. Scroll down so that the second post in the thread is at the top of the page. You'll notice that practically the entire page is taken up by the following actual content:

#2 I’m buzzed and arguing online about the Suns.
This is nae good.
#3 its been 1,000 days since Ryan Braun got a hit.
#4 Reportedly, some Cleveland news guy just twitted that LeBron’s tax bill has been changed from a Cleveland address to a Chicago one.
#5 Evan MacLane is only the third pitcher in the PI era to give up a walkoff homer to the first batter he faced in his career. The last to do it was J.J. Trujillo in 2002, who only made three more appearances in his career. But the last guy before him? Andy Messersmith.


The ridiculous amount of whitespace (bluespace?) makes the forums nigh-unreadable, especially when people actually quote other posts. I would have no issues with thread relocations if they looked like the rest of the site. When we went from old Primer to BBTF, we added some overhead in formatting, but you can still read a back and forth without relying on constant use of the scroll wheel.

I hate the forum formatting with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns. When less than half of an actual page is content, that's a huge problem. And that's with avatars turned off.
   202. AROM Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:00 AM (#3583140)
Wouldn't have been easier to say something like 'We've looked into it, and decided that the cost and hassle of forums is just not something that we want to do, especially since this is a market already served by other websites, like the ones you mentioned. We do look into it from time to time, and if we the situation changes, we will re-evaluate at that time.'


You don't even have to do that. Don't say anything. They pretty much asked for a brainstorming session. The whole point of such an exercise is to get a ton of suggestions, most of them not useful, and hope to sort out a few that might be worth implementing. You don't need to respond to every idea, much less go into attack mode.
   203. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:01 AM (#3583142)
#5 Evan MacLane is only the third pitcher in the PI era to give up a walkoff homer to the first batter he faced in his career. The last to do it was J.J. Trujillo in 2002, who only made three more appearances in his career. But the last guy before him? Andy Messersmith.


This is great stuff. What's it doing in the Lounge?
   204. AROM Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:03 AM (#3583143)
I know there's confusion about Joe's role considering his handle said BP Staff. On Tango's blog Colin Wyers pointed out that Joe was a former BP writer. If the current BP writers don't want to take the heat for Joe's little tantrum, I suggest revoking his staff handle.
   205. Dag is a salt water fish in fresh water world Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:03 AM (#3583144)
Giambi was before Petco, but it was also like 700 posts, while Petco was over 2,000. And Giambi, while joke laden, was still ostensibly about baseball.

For the first 400 posts. Then second half was just "how long can we make this, and can we top Hank Aaron?"
   206. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:08 AM (#3583146)
To follow up on post 208, that Messersmith game was amazing. It was against the Red Sox in 1968, and Angel manager Bill Rigney brought in Messersmith for his major league debut in the bottom of the ninth, in a 1-1 tie, with the bases loaded and nobody out. Messersmith promptly served up a grand slam to our old friend Hawk Harrelson.
   207. Dag is a salt water fish in fresh water world Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:08 AM (#3583147)
This is great stuff. What's it doing in the Lounge?

The lounge is full of great stuff. Today we had trivia contests about franchise IW records plus other stuff I'm not going to mention because I wasn't responsible for it.
   208. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:09 AM (#3583148)
So this raises a question for me: who the hell does subscribe to BP?


I do, for one.

I do it for Goldstein, mostly, and a little bit of Goldman and that's about it.

$40 a year isn't so bad for that, at the very least I'd rather give it to them than blow ESPN Insider for the same price for Keith Law's stuff.

Sheehan was terrible and I didn't blink and eye when he left.
   209. Dag is a salt water fish in fresh water world Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:09 AM (#3583149)
I suggest revoking his staff handle.

Sounds like a euphemism for something.
   210. CrosbyBird Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:11 AM (#3583151)
The Lounge used to be my favorite part of the site, but I can't fight the interface for 22 pages. (Another nit: loading twice as often, and it takes longer to load each page.)

I've asked a couple of times but nobody ever seems to answer... why can't the forums look like the rest of the site? Is it a technical issue, a cost issue, or just not enough people caring?

I know I'm not the only person that has effectively been cut off from a huge part of the site, by nature of a terrible user interface.
   211. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:16 AM (#3583154)
I'm pretty sure that Insider is no $40 a year.
   212. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:16 AM (#3583156)
If the forums/lounges looked like the rest of the site, I'd go threaten people there.
   213. SoSH U at work Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:29 AM (#3583161)
Today we had trivia contests about franchise IW records


I miss the Dugout.
   214. Dan Evensen Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:44 AM (#3583171)
I suck for not reading through this whole thread, I know.

Does anybody else miss the old Baseball Primer days? Sure, it's nice to have threads without a 4chan-esque Admiral Ackbar warning me of an impending trap on the first post, and I sure as hell don't miss the Piazza posts, but I still feel nostalgic every once in a while.

Does anybody update Wiki Gonzales anymore?

Anyway, sorry for being a bit off-topic. Seeing names like Cookie Monster and Kevin brought me back a little, and, well, I just kept going backwards. I had more to say, but my wife has to use Skype now.
   215. PerroX Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:52 AM (#3583173)
I cant remember when I first visited the site or what drew me here - way back before reconstruction.

Big difference, as others have said, is that the main lines of saber argument are settled and people dont feel the need to defend them like true believers. Pretty much put Backlasher out of business.
   216. Yardape Posted: July 09, 2010 at 06:00 AM (#3583177)
I know I'm not the only person that has effectively been cut off from a huge part of the site, by nature of a terrible user interface.


Yeah, I used to peruse the lounge daily, and now almost never go. It might be just as well for my productivity, though. Although I'm not sure what I should be accomplishing today anyway.
   217. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: July 09, 2010 at 06:05 AM (#3583178)
Wait, Cookie Monster showed up in here?

EDIT, after skimming thread: Rats.
   218. Mike A Posted: July 09, 2010 at 06:28 AM (#3583189)
Like many, I miss rec.sport.baseball, but it couldn't be duplicated today. It's a different time and a different internet.
   219. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:54 AM (#3583208)
who the hell does subscribe to BP?

I think their business, like most money-making-sabermetric-oriented sites, is to cater to fantasy players.
   220. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 09, 2010 at 11:00 AM (#3583213)
Does anybody else miss the old Baseball Primer days? Sure, it's nice to have threads without a 4chan-esque Admiral Ackbar warning me of an impending trap on the first post, and I sure as hell don't miss the Piazza posts, but I still feel nostalgic every once in a while.
It was a little more free-flowing, but one thing people forget when they talk about, e.g., the PETCO thread is how much of it was pure padding solely to see how high the number would go. And those horrendous page-loading speeds.

I do miss the days when threads weren't shut down just to please our corporate overlords, though. And when half the regulars weren't over in the forums.

Big difference, as others have said, is that the main lines of saber argument are settled and people dont feel the need to defend them like true believers. Pretty much put Backlasher out of business.
Well, no. You're forgetting steroids. That was the height of Backlasherism. Without steroids wars (and without Kevin to initiate them through fabrication), the site has really calmed down.


Like many, I miss rec.sport.baseball, but it couldn't be duplicated today. It's a different time and a different internet.
Yes; Moneyball was a mainstream hit, and Bill James is a respected consultant for a major league team. It's no longer the world where there's a fight between traditional baseball people who couldn't count to 10 on their fingers and were proud of it, and geeks in their mother's basement. (Okay, maybe sabermaticians are still geeks in their mother's basement, but the notion that OBP is some made up thing doesn't exist anymore. Neyer is no longer the only saber-savvy writer in the MSM.)
   221. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 09, 2010 at 11:07 AM (#3583215)
who the hell does subscribe to BP?

I think their business, like most money-making-sabermetric-oriented sites, is to cater to fantasy players.
I sort of assumed that was going to be the answer, but really, does BP offer so much that free sites don't?
   222. Kurt Posted: July 09, 2010 at 11:57 AM (#3583225)
I sort of assumed that was going to be the answer, but really, does BP offer so much that free sites don't?


Possibly. I don't read BP, but free sites with a specific fantasy focus are, AFAICT, pretty terrible.
   223. Alex Vila Posted: July 09, 2010 at 12:32 PM (#3583239)
Has anyone really figured out what it was that caused the huge shift in BPrimer's traffic? Was their article or something?

The first time I heard of Primer was a mention by Rob Neyer on his ESPN column in 1999 or 2000.
Wow - 10+ years. I have wasted a LOT of time here, in the best possible way.
   224. Josh1 Posted: July 09, 2010 at 01:13 PM (#3583263)
I used to read BP regularly in the free days and then paid for 2-3 years but ultimately let my subscription lapse when I noticed I was barely reading it any more. Maybe things have changed, but at the time I was paying they weren't providing much I couldn't get elsewhere, and if anything, the metrics were worse than others I could get because they were less transparent. I still buy the book every year because I like to have baseball content of that sort I can carry with me places (though it takes up too much room). I'm OK with the trying-to-entertain comments, even if they fail frequently by trying too hard, and James was of course so much better at them. I miss BBBA quite a bit.
   225. The Good Face Posted: July 09, 2010 at 01:42 PM (#3583286)
Does anybody else miss the old Baseball Primer days? Sure, it's nice to have threads without a 4chan-esque Admiral Ackbar warning me of an impending trap on the first post, and I sure as hell don't miss the Piazza posts, but I still feel nostalgic every once in a while.


I still miss Admiral Ackbar (and being Admiral Ackbar), along with his cowardly catchphrase.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like there's been a lack of new blood posting. I see a screenname and I immediately have a pretty decent idea what's coming. Perhaps we should have a manditory screenname change every 6 months, mix things up!
   226. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 09, 2010 at 01:46 PM (#3583289)
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like there's been a lack of new blood posting. I see a screenname and I immediately have a pretty decent idea what's coming. Perhaps we should have a manditory screenname change every 6 months, mix things up!

Hey, I can live with that, but haven't you been The Good Face for quite a few years now?
   227. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: July 09, 2010 at 01:49 PM (#3583290)
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like there's been a lack of new blood posting. I see a screenname and I immediately have a pretty decent idea what's coming. Perhaps we should have a manditory screenname change every 6 months, mix things up!

#### you #######! Did you see that coming you pantywaste?

Naw, I kid. I originally came to BBTF to lurk in the Hall of Merit threads and I stayed for the buffet. Right now the HOM project is basically over, the real holy war of sabrmetrics has been fought. There seems to be a lull of good baseball arguments right now. This is a great site, though. Posters are mostly smart, there is a wide breadth of expertise, and it's good at self policing.
   228. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: July 09, 2010 at 01:53 PM (#3583291)
I change my screen name every so often, but the only result is that nobody seems to know who I am, what my prevailing opinion is, or which team I root for.
   229. The Good Face Posted: July 09, 2010 at 01:56 PM (#3583294)
Hey, I can live with that, but haven't you been The Good Face for quite a few years now?


Only like 6 or so. I was planning on changing it regularly, but eh, effort. But a FORCED name change, that's something I can get behind!
   230. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: July 09, 2010 at 01:58 PM (#3583296)
#### you #######! Did you see that coming you pantywaste?


Is that putting a Victoria's Secret thong on this woman?
   231. just plain joe Posted: July 09, 2010 at 02:09 PM (#3583300)
Perhaps we should have a manditory screenname change every 6 months, mix things up!


Or, one Friday per month all posts must be made in Spanish (unless one is a native Spanish speaker and then posts must be made in Hebrew). Apparently I'm in a minority here but I still subscribe to the BPro site; the 40 bucks per year is not that much money and it is worth that to me. I can't say that I miss Joe Sheehan though, the man had/has a huge chip on his shoulder and I didn't think he was that good of a writer. I understand that he was a columnist and being paid to express opinions but he never let the facts get in the way of what he was writing.
   232. zack Posted: July 09, 2010 at 02:21 PM (#3583310)
Pretty much every discussion site on the internet goes through the cycle the old timers are lamenting. In fact, BP/BTF has probably cycled slower than most. I've been on forums that have gone through the whole thing in 2 years, and others that took 10, but they all did eventually.
   233. zack Posted: July 09, 2010 at 02:22 PM (#3583311)
Elisabeth R?hm and Walter Haas: I change my screen name every so often, but the only result is that nobody seems to know who I am, what my prevailing opinion is, or which team I root for.


Plus everyone thinks you're a girl.
   234. Randy Jones Posted: July 09, 2010 at 02:25 PM (#3583312)
Or, one Friday per month all posts must be made in Spanish (unless one is a native Spanish speaker and then posts must be made in Hebrew).


¿Que?
   235. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: July 09, 2010 at 02:42 PM (#3583331)
Plus everyone thinks you're a girl.

You don't know that I'm not!
   236. Jack Keefe Posted: July 09, 2010 at 03:03 PM (#3583361)
Well Al let me sum up this thread for you and then we can close it down. First of all there is a bright fellow named Tony the Tango and he said to Sheeham of Prospectus how about some forums and then maybe you would attract intelligent Postors like Jack Keefe. Whereupon Sheeham said Go Fall Off the Second Deck at the Ballpark you Unsuccessful Crumb Bum. And then some 1 pointed out that the Forums at Primer look like some 1's insane dream of Nested Do Loops and some 1 else said Not At All. And then some 1 said they want Admiral Ackbar back and some 1 else said its a trap and then an other person said on Fridays we must all post in Spanglish and it got hard to follow. Any way it is Friday now and I asked my skipper Ozzie Guillen to translate todays Jack Keefe post into Spanglish and here are the results Al.

Pues todos ellos son de Al reglajes sobre si es mejor que Folleto Primer y debe ser readmitido kevin le pregunté a mi amigo AJ Pierogi si pensaba que Kevin debe volver y me dijo algo irreproducible y que sólo va a mostrar Al no pedir la Misa de sus pensamientos.
   237. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 09, 2010 at 03:06 PM (#3583364)
Can you pee standing up?

(That wouldn't necessarily settle the question - I'm just curious.)
   238. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: July 09, 2010 at 03:08 PM (#3583368)
You all are just characters in my imagination.
   239. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: July 09, 2010 at 03:09 PM (#3583371)
246: This is going to take the thread in a whole new direction. It turns out I'm more Walter Haas than Elisabeth Rohm, so yes, I can pee standing up. However, if given the option, I prefer to sit down to urinate. Does anybody else do this?
   240. Eddo Posted: July 09, 2010 at 04:33 PM (#3583384)
I haven't been here very long, but doesn't Mr. Keefe provide enough spark for several sites?
   241. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 09, 2010 at 04:48 PM (#3583407)
I change my screen name every so often, but the only result is that nobody seems to know who I am, what my prevailing opinion is, or which team I root for.


I know what you mean. But it looks like you can solve the problem by putting a "formerly" after your handle. I'm going to try it.
   242. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: July 09, 2010 at 04:51 PM (#3583412)
Does anybody else do this?


Nope. I stand so I can be courteous and try and clean anything left in the bowl after one of Bernal's visits.

(I am fairly certain I'm thinking of Bernal, my apologies if I am wrong).
   243. Dan Evensen Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:18 PM (#3583468)
It was a little more free-flowing, but one thing people forget when they talk about, e.g., the PETCO thread is how much of it was pure padding solely to see how high the number would go. And those horrendous page-loading speeds.

That's true. I once tried to read through that thread. It wasn't fun.

I do miss the Primeys, though.

I'm not sure when I first found Primer. I think it was back in early 2002, though I'm not entirely sure. I remember following the "Pitch to Bonds?" stuff during the 2002 postseason. I also remember coming here during my 12th grade accounting class (2001-2002 school year).
   244. McCoy Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:23 PM (#3583480)
Your accounting class had a field trip to Primer? Did Furtado greet you at the door in his bathrobe and slippers?


Speaking of the old days does anybody else miss the link to Primer at the top of BRef?

That was how I found this site many moons ago.
   245. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:29 PM (#3583490)
I also remember coming here during my 12th grade accounting class (2001-2002 school year).


####.
   246. CFiJ Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:30 PM (#3583493)
Does anybody else miss the old Baseball Primer days? Sure, it's nice to have threads without a 4chan-esque Admiral Ackbar warning me of an impending trap on the first post, and I sure as hell don't miss the Piazza posts, but I still feel nostalgic every once in a while.

Once in a while, indeed. Once in a while I'll see a post that just seems tailor-made to be replied to by an amusing alias, and I'll fondly remember Old Primer. I recall one Cubs Game Chatter when after an annoying clutch hit, someone posted as Fernando Vina saying, "I AM AN ANNOYING CLUTCH GOD!" It was so hilarious and to the point. And those kind of posts helped me get through that first game of the 2003 NLDS, when I was so afraid the Cubs were going to lose the first game and just swept out of the playoffs, my stomach was in knots. And remember the Primey winning ntr Peter Gammons post where he defended his writing style as following the female orgasm rather than the male one? My God that was hilarious.

But then I remember all those times I'd see an interesting looking Clutch Hit with 30 or so replies, and find that the first 20 where all stupid, pointless fake post jokes. It's like Reggie Jackson's quote about fastballs: "Everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it in you by the gallon."
   247. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:38 PM (#3583509)
It is funny though. People reminiscing about missing "the old Baseball Primer" now sound a lot like people on the old Primer missing rec.sport.baseball.
   248. Lassus Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:41 PM (#3583516)
Pues todos ellos son de Al reglajes sobre si es mejor que Folleto Primer y debe ser readmitido kevin le pregunté a mi amigo AJ Pierogi si pensaba que Kevin debe volver y me dijo algo irreproducible y que sólo va a mostrar Al no pedir la Misa de sus pensamientos.

I don't even know what this means and it wins the thread.
   249. McCoy Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:45 PM (#3583520)
It is funny though. People reminiscing about missing "the old Baseball Primer" now sound a lot like people on the old Primer missing rec.sport.baseball.

It's like baseball. Everybody thinks the greatest era of baseball is the baseball that was played when they were young and first introduced to the game.
   250. BDC Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:46 PM (#3583522)
does anybody else miss the link to Primer at the top of BRef?

No, but I'm getting tired of invitations to read about "cigarettes that don't kill" on Primer itself.
   251. zenbitz Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:46 PM (#3583523)
I don't like the ways things are today, compared to the way they used to be!
   252. CFiJ Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:47 PM (#3583525)
Well, my longest romantic relationship is 2 1/2 years, my longest job is four years, and the longest I've lived in one place since moving out of my Mom's house has been four years. Heck, my longest stint in Japan is now going on six years. But as near as I can tell, I've been on Primer for at least 10 years now. My adult life has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But Baseball Primer has marked the time.
   253. bunyon Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:48 PM (#3583526)
Does anybody else do this?

Women.
   254. BDC Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:48 PM (#3583529)
Everybody thinks the greatest era of baseball is the baseball that was played when they were young and first introduced to the game

For me, this was Bob Gibson, Koufax & Drysdale, Mays Banks and Aaron, Roberto Clemente, Mazeroski at second base, and in the other league there was Mickey Mantle. QED, I should think :)
   255. McCoy Posted: July 09, 2010 at 05:50 PM (#3583533)
No, but I'm getting tired of invitations to read about "cigarettes that don't kill" on Primer itself.

I always found the one that had the model that looked like Meadow Soprano to be intriguing while I find the new one with an aged Scully in a doctor's coat to be hilarious.
   256. Bourbon Samurai Posted: July 09, 2010 at 06:16 PM (#3583575)
No, but I'm getting tired of invitations to read about "cigarettes that don't kill" on Primer itself.


These things are pretty neat, actually. My GF has an awful friend who has married an awful woman who is constantly smoking one of those things. It makes me think she is perhaps a bladerunner bot of some sort.
   257. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: July 09, 2010 at 06:19 PM (#3583585)
No, but I'm getting tired of invitations to read about "cigarettes that don't kill" on Primer itself.


Yeah. I've accepted the inevitability of the EVONY ads, but the electic cigarette banners just annoy the crap out of me. (Also, the random tall banner ads that push the page down below the scroll bar *must* end.)
   258. base ball chick Posted: July 09, 2010 at 06:31 PM (#3583608)
i found this place because dan werr used to write this wonderful column called digging in the ASTRO turf.

and this place was a lot more interesting and a lot more fun than the other forums i went to - they were way too heavily moderated and AL heavy

and yeh most of the old time regulars are long gone (i really wonder what happened to UCCF after he left maine) and i miss lots of them. and i actually do miss lots of the really clever answers by ntrPlayers. i don't miss all the guys who told me i couldn't be a female because grrrls are too stoopid and i don't miss all the bytching that mah engliss ain't reel too good neither

and i miss john every day

also, seem to me that we discussed a lot more off-topic stuff in every thread and it wasn't real too political until the Infamous Petco Thread. i've learned a lot about stuff like kinds of planes in WW2 and gene testing and how to talk law lahk a laaaar

it is real tough for me with my reading problem to follow the lounge in its current format. i don't know what people are talking about the pages loading slow - i have a 5 year old computer and they load just like any other page for me
   259. BWV 1129 Posted: July 09, 2010 at 06:31 PM (#3583609)
- #5 Evan MacLane is only the third pitcher in the PI era to give up a walkoff homer to the first batter he faced in his career. The last to do it was J.J. Trujillo in 2002, who only made three more appearances in his career. But the last guy before him? Andy Messersmith.

This is great stuff. What's it doing in the Lounge?


The Lounge is where all the best posting happens nowadays.
   260. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: July 09, 2010 at 06:36 PM (#3583617)
The Lounge is where all the best posting happens nowadays.


If that is true - if the best the site has to offer is now on display only in the "off-topic" lounges - that's a problem.
   261. BWV 1129 Posted: July 09, 2010 at 06:36 PM (#3583618)
The Lounge used to be my favorite part of the site, but I can't fight the interface for 22 pages. (Another nit: loading twice as often, and it takes longer to load each page.)

I've asked a couple of times but nobody ever seems to answer... why can't the forums look like the rest of the site? Is it a technical issue, a cost issue, or just not enough people caring?

I know I'm not the only person that has effectively been cut off from a huge part of the site, by nature of a terrible user interface.


Honestly, if you just give it a try for a week or so, you'll find it's a pretty good interface. The Quote button is a boon to discussion, and makes skipping over posts you don't care about much easier.
   262. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 09, 2010 at 06:40 PM (#3583624)
Everybody thinks the greatest era of baseball is the baseball that was played when they were young and first introduced to the game.

For me, this was Bob Gibson, Koufax & Drysdale, Mays Banks and Aaron, Roberto Clemente, Mazeroski at second base, and in the other league there was Mickey Mantle. QED, I should think :)


Only if you've got a well trained selective memory that can wipe away all traces of the worst 150-180 American League players in a 200 player league. Trust me, once you get past the cheap tickets there wasn't a damn thing better about baseball back then, other than a World Series with a guaranteed Yankee appearance. The Golden Age of Baseball on the field is today, as in right now.
   263. just plain joe Posted: July 09, 2010 at 06:50 PM (#3583640)
i really wonder what happened to UCCF after he left maine


Me too; I hope that the forces of evil didn't finally track him down and harvest his internal organs as payback for all of the money he owed in student loans.

I agree that discussions in the past seemed to be more free-wheeling and were allowed to wander off topic without the threat of instant vaporization that seems to be the norm today. Perhaps this is for the best, in any case it isn't my decision to make. No lounge for me thanks, I have only glanced at it a couple of times since returning to BTF some months ago (I used to post under another name until needing to quit cold turkey a couple of years ago).
   264. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: July 09, 2010 at 06:55 PM (#3583649)
UCCF still posts here.
   265. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 09, 2010 at 07:03 PM (#3583656)
I thought the Lounge was created specifically for people to discuss non-baseball topics. The few times I've been there (which were admittedly awhile ago now), that was certainly the case.

Do I need to go to the Lounge to start following the best baseball discussion here? Frankly, I am at a loss. I very much enjoy reading the baseball-centered conversations here, but I very much do not want to have to wade through a bunch of posts about people's favorite "Saved by the Bell" episodes.
   266. McCoy Posted: July 09, 2010 at 07:05 PM (#3583661)
That one is easy. Every single one that has Tiffany Amber Thiessen in a bathing suit.
   267. SoSH U at work Posted: July 09, 2010 at 07:06 PM (#3583665)
UCCF is eamus catuli.
   268. tribefan Posted: July 09, 2010 at 07:08 PM (#3583671)
I very much do not want to have to wade through a bunch of posts about people's favorite "Saved by the Bell" episodes.
There is a fair amount of television discussion over there, but it seems to center around the Golden Girls and Mad Men.
   269. BDC Posted: July 09, 2010 at 07:08 PM (#3583670)
Do I need to go to the Lounge to start following the best baseball discussion here?

I think we do need regular Dugouts – and just in case GGC is around, I am not criticizing him for not posting any lately. One does not always have loads of time to post regular Internet content out of the goodness of one's heart, unless one is Repoz, in which case I am not sure "goodness" and "heart" are applicable concepts :)
   270. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: July 09, 2010 at 07:10 PM (#3583675)
without the threat of instant vaporization that seems to be the norm today.


How many times has this actually happened recently? Have I missed a few dozen or is the number under 10?
   271. McCoy Posted: July 09, 2010 at 07:22 PM (#3583696)
Define recently. The amount of closures is most definitely being overblown here in this thread. It happens but it isn't like every single thread that goes off topic is in danger of being shutdown. Probably 95% of the threads that go off-topic don't get the flip switched and the 5% that do get their switch flipped are first allowed to go for hundreds and hundreds of posts before it happens most of the time.
   272. Dan Evensen Posted: July 09, 2010 at 07:25 PM (#3583702)
It's like baseball. Everybody thinks the greatest era of baseball is the baseball that was played when they were young and first introduced to the game.

Except those of us crazy enough to wish we were alive before 1920.

Back to old Primer. You know who I miss? The Score Bard. When did he stop posting?

EDIT: Just answered my own question here and here.

Every single one that has Tiffany Amber Thiessen in a bathing suit.

Seconded.
   273. Dag is a salt water fish in fresh water world Posted: July 09, 2010 at 07:26 PM (#3583706)
I thought the Lounge was created specifically for people to discuss non-baseball topics. The few times I've been there (which were admittedly awhile ago now), that was certainly the case.

It's overwhelmingly non-baseball, but it's a fun place. It's all over the place in terms of topics.
   274. BWV 1129 Posted: July 09, 2010 at 07:32 PM (#3583714)
We do a lot of baseball talk. A lot of it is contemporaneous to games, but, for instance, CW and I were just discussing linear weights in depth over the weekend.
   275. Dan Evensen Posted: July 09, 2010 at 07:37 PM (#3583720)
I don't mind the non-baseball talk, actually. I would have never cared about BBC 4 until somebody mentioned it here. Now I can't function in the mornings without listening to at least a bit of the Today podcast. BBTF / Primer also introduced me to Jonathan Wilson's "Inverting the Pyramid," as well as zonalmarking.net. Where would I be without those?

Anybody remember Yun Taragoashi?
   276. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: July 09, 2010 at 07:38 PM (#3583723)
Anybody remember Yun Taragoashi?


We met him in Cleveland.
   277. RJ in TO Posted: July 09, 2010 at 07:53 PM (#3583752)
without the threat of instant vaporization that seems to be the norm today.

How many times has this actually happened recently? Have I missed a few dozen or is the number under 10?


Political threads (and related) almost always end up (eventually) getting vaporized. Other off topic threads are typically allowed to wander along their merry way, unless it's something like a bunch of guys arguing about the proper way a woman should react in response to rape.
   278. phredbird Posted: July 09, 2010 at 08:12 PM (#3583797)
Or, one Friday per month all posts must be made in Spanish (unless one is a native Spanish speaker and then posts must be made in Hebrew). Apparently I'm in a minority here but I still subscribe to the BPro site


y tu mama
   279. Greg Schuler Posted: July 09, 2010 at 08:25 PM (#3583820)
Checks to see if the Maginot Line is mentioned...nope. Moving on.
   280. Zach Posted: July 09, 2010 at 08:27 PM (#3583823)
We do a lot of baseball talk. A lot of it is contemporaneous to games, but, for instance, CW and I were just discussing linear weights in depth over the weekend.

And of course, there's a big advantage to having a community of sabermetrically inclined posters already assembled so that that kind of conversation has a chance to take off.

My view of sports is heavily influenced by Posnanski. Sabermetrics is interesting in its own right, but it's mainly interesting as a way of helping us see the games better.

I can't remember, but I may have started reading Prospectus before coming here all those many moons ago. I got gradually turned off because of
1) Excessive snark
2) Ugly statistics -- I've never liked hero statistics that try to lump the entire game into one number.
3) The site moved in the direction of PECOTA and fantasy prediction, and I'm a strong skeptic of prediction systems.
4) General loss of talent as the founding generation moved on to other things.
   281. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 09, 2010 at 08:29 PM (#3583829)
Honestly, if you just give it a try for a week or so, you'll find it's a pretty good interface. The Quote button is a boon to discussion, and makes skipping over posts you don't care about much easier.
The problem I have with just giving it a try is that it's like moving to a new school in mid-year. You don't know what's going on, and everyone has their little cliques and inside jokes.

Define recently. The amount of closures is most definitely being overblown here in this thread. It happens but it isn't like every single thread that goes off topic is in danger of being shutdown. Probably 95% of the threads that go off-topic don't get the flip switched and the 5% that do get their switch flipped are first allowed to go for hundreds and hundreds of posts before it happens most of the time.
Well, what drove it home for me was when a purely on-topic Barry Bonds court decision thread got shut down abruptly because one poster was being a little rude.
   282. villageidiom Posted: July 09, 2010 at 08:35 PM (#3583835)
Political threads (and related) almost always end up (eventually) getting vaporized.
Szym, if you're still around this thread... What would happen were the same kind of discussion to take place, but in a forum thread instead of a mainland thread? Would the site (or site admins') policy be to let it ride because it's sequestered in a forum and not making the whole site look bad? Or would y'all have the same editorial approach and shut down a forum when things get out of hand? (Or neither... perhaps in the forums you can wipe out individual posts rather than the whole thread?)
   283. BWV 1129 Posted: July 09, 2010 at 08:38 PM (#3583839)
There are a lot of inside jokes, but we don't bite. Well, we bite, but we only bite people we know. We won't bite you until you spend some time with us. And the inside jokes are pretty easy to catch up on, if for no other reason than that rLr will beat them to death until it's impossible to (1) not know what they are and (2) find them at all funny.
   284. RJ in TO Posted: July 09, 2010 at 08:39 PM (#3583842)
Szym, if you're still around this thread... What would happen were the same kind of discussion to take place, but in a forum thread instead of a mainland thread?

I'm not Szym but, given that he's repeatedly shifted those political threads over to the forums, I'd guess that he'd be much more inclined to let them ride there than on the mainland.
   285. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: July 09, 2010 at 08:47 PM (#3583851)
Unless something's extreme, we leave the forums alone. The only thing I think I've ever deleted from the forums (that wasn't spam) was a poll someone posted on who the worst BTF poster.


You were just pissed because you were leading with 73% of the vote.
   286. just plain joe Posted: July 09, 2010 at 08:51 PM (#3583855)
The problem I have with just giving it a try is that it's like moving to a new school in mid-year. You don't know what's going on, and everyone has their little cliques and inside jokes.


The reason I can't "do" the lounge, I feel as if I'm intruding on a private party, and there is only so much time in the day available for mindless time wasting that lounging just doesn't seem worth the effort. Not to denigrate the good folks in the lounge but not some place I want to be.

La vida aspira y entonces usted muere.
   287. Dan Evensen Posted: July 09, 2010 at 08:56 PM (#3583864)
I can't remember, but I may have started reading Prospectus before coming here all those many moons ago. I got gradually turned off because of
1) Excessive snark
2) Ugly statistics -- I've never liked hero statistics that try to lump the entire game into one number.
3) The site moved in the direction of PECOTA and fantasy prediction, and I'm a strong skeptic of prediction systems.
4) General loss of talent as the founding generation moved on to other things.


I didn't read Prospectus until I was already here (the only one I purchased was 2003), but I got turned off for the exact same reasons. Now, I do enjoy ZiPS, but only in moderation.

I never bothered to visit the forums until today. Geez, between Primer, DMBFans, APBA:BTL and that one Strat forum on Delphi, I'm already kind of forumed out. I'll give it a try one of these days.
   288. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:00 PM (#3583871)
I just clicked on that forum link that Ryan provided above, and Vlad had the best comment:

If The Powers That Be want to actively push the userbase to work more heavily within the forums (and I have no idea whether they do or do not), I think the easiest way to do so would be to either add forum threads to the Hot Topics sidebar, or to create a separate-but-equal sidebar for recently-commented forum threads. Though that would, of course, make it harder to hide contentious discussions from the members of the media who apparently need fainting couches and smelling salts…


That's an obvious solution, and the only serious objection to it can be the equally obvious one that Vlad mentions.

BTW who, exactly, are these media spies who are so frightened of "off-topic" and / or political discussions? We get allusions to this but are never given any names.

And it's also kind of a strange policy that has one BTF honcho (Repoz) putting up political articles on the one hand (Diamondbacks and immigration being but one of many examples), only to see another honcho (Szym) pull the plug on it. Does the BTF firing ruling squad really dispute that sports and politics are frequently joined at the hip?

If any topic devolves into a real flame war, I don't see anything wrong in shutting it down, but it should be done with an explanation as to what posts caused the shutdown. The way it's been lately, some of the shutdowns have been caused for no obvious reason, and never with any explanation.

And it's not as if it takes much more energy to give a warning to an offending flamethrower than it does to shut it down, and it's not as if that warning, if enforced, wouldn't act as a deterrent to personal attacks.
   289. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:04 PM (#3583882)
And it's not as if it takes much more energy to give a warning to an offending flamethrower than it does to shut it down, and it's not as if that warning, if enforced, wouldn't act as a deterrent to personal attacks.


If this is directed towards me, go #### yourself. If not, carry on.
   290. CrosbyBird Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:22 PM (#3583918)
Honestly, if you just give it a try for a week or so, you'll find it's a pretty good interface. The Quote button is a boon to discussion, and makes skipping over posts you don't care about much easier.


I did try it, and for longer than a week. And I've used similar interfaces on other sites (which have also been abandoned for the same reason). It's not like I'm some luddite. I immediately embraced registration and new primer.

There are basically three things that I strongly dislike about the forum interface, from least important to most important:

1) 50 posts per page, which effectively doubles the amount of page loads.
2) The outrageous amount of whitespace, which makes the content an unreasonably small amount of the page, and requires a ton of scrolling. This is especially bad for one-liners, which are a good part of what makes this community entertaining. Nested quotes are particularly egregious in filling space with content that isn't adding anything to the discussion.
3) The splintering of the community. Again, I'm not the only one that dislikes the format enough not to post there. It's not that people can't find the forums. It's that people don't LIKE the forums.

I really don't see how anyone could possibly prefer the appearance/functionality of the forums to the main site. I could see how the quote function is useful but the main site also has a quote function.

Excessive formatting is one of the cardinal sins of web design. There's no accounting for taste, but as a model for efficient content delivery, the forum interface is objectively poor.
   291. UCCF Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:23 PM (#3583920)
UCCF is eamus catuli.

I bet you wouldn't keep Clark Kent's secret either.

(bbc - I live in San Francisco now, working in the pharma industry. I escaped Maine with both my organs and my student debt intact.)
   292. BDC Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:23 PM (#3583922)
I'm on record as not enjoying the shutdown policy, which seems to me to limit the value of this site as a commentary on culture overall as it relates to baseball – one of the things that has distinguished Primer from a run-of-the-mill baseball board. However, I apparently spend no less time here than ever. How else would I learn about Justin Smoak et al. for Cliff Lee as it materializes in real time? I guess I could follow sportswriters on Twitter, but I like to think I have some remaining shreds of a life.
   293. Mattbert Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:25 PM (#3583926)
I haven't been here very long, but doesn't Mr. Keefe provide enough spark for several sites?

Keefe is excellent, but Larry Bowa was even better. For years I've been rooting for the real Larry Bowa to land another managerial job somewhere in hopes that ntr Larry Bowa would reappear here.
   294. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:30 PM (#3583936)
(bbc - I live in San Francisco now, working in the pharma industry. I escaped Maine with both my organs and my student debt intact.)


Why did you abandon the lounge?
   295. phredbird Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:31 PM (#3583939)
The reason I can't "do" the lounge, I feel as if I'm intruding on a private party, and there is only so much time in the day available for mindless time wasting that lounging just doesn't seem worth the effort.


this has been my experience. if i'm going to waste time, i find it more congenial in the newsblog.
   296. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:32 PM (#3583941)
It is not a private party. Anyone is welcome. Well almost anyone.
   297. SoSH U at work Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:32 PM (#3583944)
I bet you wouldn't keep Clark Kent's secret either.


Hell no. I'm the guy who outed TR. I live for this stuff.

Actually, I wouldn't have shared that information if you hadn't responded in kind when GGC and I were lamenting (or was it celebrating, I can't recall) your apparent demise in a previous thread.

As for the lounge, I occasionally post over there. But I'd rather it didn't exist and the guys who post exclusively or mostly over there still posted here, making for a more rich, full-bodied Primer community.
   298. PerroX Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:35 PM (#3583948)
When the lounge goes topless, I'll pay another visit.
   299. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:36 PM (#3583950)
When the lounge goes topless, I'll pay another visit.


Dial does have impressive moobs.
   300. Harold can be a fun sponge Posted: July 09, 2010 at 09:37 PM (#3583952)
Actually closing an offending comment is next to impossible until our next database revamp. Closing a comment at the moment actually takes the entire site offline. There are some issues with very large databases that the new version of EE is supposed to take care of.

Dan, are you able to edit comments? If so, you can edit them to be blank.

It is incredibly frustrating to lose access to part of the site that you contributed to (like when a thread or a lounge is closed).
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