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Tuesday, December 03, 2013

BPP: Vote: The 50 best baseball players not in the Hall of Fame, Version 4.0

And you don’t need a Masters Degree!

Here we go again… It’s hard to believe it’s been a full year or that this will be our fourth time around, but it’s time to vote for my annual project on the 50 best baseball players not in the Hall of Fame. Last year’s project was a smashing success, and this year looks to be even better with the ballot fuller than ever. Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux, and Frank Thomas highlight an unusually deep class of newly-eligible players.

Votes for this year’s project can be submitted at this Google form. I’ve also created a reference ballot of 526 players, though as I’ll explain below, anyone who hasn’t played in the majors in five years is eligible here.

I don’t have many guidelines for this project, but here they are:

  -Anyone is welcome to vote, using whatever criteria they like.
  -You must vote for 50 players. Next to each player you select, please put a “Y” or “N” to signify if he belongs in the Hall of Fame. I say this every year, but it bears repeating: This project isn’t about identifying 50 players who must go in Cooperstown tomorrow, but simply designating the 50 best players not enshrined.
  -Any player in baseball history who hasn’t played in five years is eligible. He need not have logged 10 years in the majors or even have played MLB ball. (Last year’s ballot featured a number of Japanese players, and I’d like to keep expanding the international scope of this project.) Write-in votes are of course welcome.
  -All votes are due by December 23 at 9 p.m. PST. No late ballots will be counted. Results will be posted on January 6, two days before the Baseball Writers Association of America reveals the results of its annual Hall of Fame vote.
  -I prefer that votes be submitted through the Google form linked to above, though anyone who has issues with it is welcome to email me their ballot.

Repoz Posted: December 03, 2013 at 11:22 AM | 71 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hof, site news

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   1. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 11:52 AM (#4609453)
It seems like for this project a straight up WAR list would get you 80% there or so, and the remaining 20% can be quibbled with, with no real right or wrong answers.
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 11:58 AM (#4609463)
What does this have to do with Frank Tanana?
   3. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: December 03, 2013 at 12:22 PM (#4609490)
I voted for Tanana 50 times.
   4. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 12:24 PM (#4609492)
Top 50 hitters since 1916 not in the Hall of Fame sorted by career WAR:

<PRE>                                                         
Rk              Player WAR/pos From   To    G    PA   OPS
1          Barry Bonds   162.6 1986 2007 2986 12606 1.051
2       Alex Rodriguez   116.0 1994 2013 2568 11344  .942
3        Albert Pujols    92.9 2001 2013 1958  8546 1.008
4        Chipper Jones    85.2 1993 2012 2499 10614  .930
5          Ken Griffey    83.6 1989 2010 2671 11304  .907
6            Pete Rose    79.8 1963 1986 3562 15890  .784
7         Jeff Bagwell    79.6 1991 2005 2150  9431  .948
8         Lou Whitaker    74.8 1977 1995 2390  9967  .789
9         Frank Thomas    73.6 1990 2008 2322 10075  .974
10           Jim Thome    72.9 1991 2012 2543 10313  .956
11        Larry Walker    72.4 1989 2005 1988  8030  .965
12     Rafael Palmeiro    71.8 1986 2005 2831 12046  .885
13         Derek Jeter    71.5 1995 2013 2602 11968  .828
14         Bobby Grich    71.0 1970 1986 2008  8220  .794
15       Adrian Beltre    70.7 1998 2013 2276  9387  .812
16       Alan Trammell    70.3 1977 1996 2293  9376  .767
17         Scott Rolen    69.9 1996 2012 2038  8518  .855
18       Manny Ramirez    69.1 1993 2011 2302  9774  .996
19          Tim Raines    68.8 1979 2002 2502 10359  .810
20      Ivan Rodriguez    68.3 1991 2011 2543 10270  .798
21      Edgar Martinez    68.1 1987 2004 2055  8674  .933
22        Kenny Lofton    67.9 1991 2007 2103  9235  .794
23       Graig Nettles    67.9 1967 1988 2700 10228  .750
24      Carlos Beltran    67.6 1998 2013 2064  8949  .854
25        Dwight Evans    66.9 1972 1991 2606 10569  .840
Rk              Player WAR
/pos From   To    G    PA   OPS
26          Buddy Bell    66.0 1972 1989 2405 10009  .747
27     Willie Randolph    65.6 1975 1992 2202  9461  .724
28        Craig Biggio    64.8 1988 2007 2850 12504  .796
29        Reggie Smith    64.3 1966 1982 1987  8051  .855
30           Ken Boyer    62.9 1955 1969 2034  8272  .810
31        Andruw Jones    62.6 1996 2012 2196  8664  .823
32        Mark McGwire    62.0 1986 2001 1874  7660  .982
33           Sal Bando    61.5 1966 1981 2019  8287  .760
34         Todd Helton    61.2 1997 2013 2247  9453  .953
35        Willie Davis    60.8 1960 1979 2429  9822  .723
36         Bobby Abreu    60.5 1996 2012 2347  9926  .873
37      Gary Sheffield    60.4 1988 2009 2576 10947  .907
38         Jim Edmonds    60.2 1993 2010 2011  7980  .903
39     Keith Hernandez    60.1 1974 1990 2088  8553  .821
40   Vladimir Guerrero    59.7 1996 2011 2147  9059  .931
41         Mike Piazza    59.2 1992 2007 1912  7745  .922
42          Dick Allen    58.6 1963 1977 1749  7315  .912
43       Ichiro Suzuki    58.5 2001 2013 2061  9278  .775
44       Darrell Evans    58.5 1969 1989 2687 10737  .792
45          Sammy Sosa    58.3 1989 2007 2354  9896  .878
46         Chase Utley    58.1 2003 2013 1323  5671  .871
47         John Olerud    58.1 1989 2005 2234  9063  .863
48         Bobby Bonds    57.7 1968 1981 1849  8090  .824
49           Joe Torre    57.3 1960 1977 2209  8802  .817
50         Bob Johnson    57.2 1933 1945 1863  8050  .899
Rk              Player WAR
/pos From   To    G    PA   OPS
</PRE
   5. Steve N Posted: December 03, 2013 at 12:25 PM (#4609493)
I was surprised to not see Ray Chapman or Joe Sewell on the list.
   6. The District Attorney Posted: December 03, 2013 at 12:26 PM (#4609497)
I can imagine why Joe Sewell isn't there.
   7. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 12:28 PM (#4609501)
Top 50 hitters since 1916 not in the Hall of Fame sorted by career oWAR:

<PRE>                                                       
Rk              Player  oWAR From   To    G    PA   OPS
1          Barry Bonds 142.7 1986 2007 2986 12606 1.051
2       Alex Rodriguez 112.9 1994 2013 2568 11344  .942
3          Derek Jeter  94.0 1995 2013 2602 11968  .828
4        Chipper Jones  87.6 1993 2012 2499 10614  .930
5          Ken Griffey  83.6 1989 2010 2671 11304  .907
6            Pete Rose  82.5 1963 1986 3562 15890  .784
7        Manny Ramirez  81.2 1993 2011 2302  9774  .996
8         Frank Thomas  79.9 1990 2008 2322 10075  .974
9       Gary Sheffield  79.9 1988 2009 2576 10947  .907
10       Albert Pujols  79.4 2001 2013 1958  8546 1.008
11           Jim Thome  76.7 1991 2012 2543 10313  .956
12        Craig Biggio  74.8 1988 2007 2850 12504  .796
13        Jeff Bagwell  73.7 1991 2005 2150  9431  .948
14          Dick Allen  69.9 1963 1977 1749  7315  .912
15          Tim Raines  68.8 1979 2002 2502 10359  .810
16        Lou Whitaker  67.0 1977 1995 2390  9967  .789
17     Rafael Palmeiro  66.9 1986 2005 2831 12046  .885
18      Edgar Martinez  66.2 1987 2004 2055  8674  .933
19         Mike Piazza  65.7 1992 2007 1912  7745  .922
20        Mark McGwire  64.8 1986 2001 1874  7660  .982
21     Bernie Williams  62.8 1991 2006 2076  9053  .858
22      Miguel Cabrera  62.5 2003 2013 1660  7126  .967
23       Alan Trammell  62.5 1977 1996 2293  9376  .767
24        Larry Walker  62.3 1989 2005 1988  8030  .965
25         Bobby Grich  62.1 1970 1986 2008  8220  .794
Rk              Player  oWAR From   To    G    PA   OPS
26         Toby Harrah  62.0 1969 1986 2155  8767  .760
27      Carlos Beltran  61.1 1998 2013 2064  8949  .854
28         Bobby Abreu  60.3 1996 2012 2347  9926  .873
29        Dwight Evans  59.6 1972 1991 2606 10569  .840
30           Jeff Kent  59.4 1992 2008 2298  9537  .855
31           Joe Torre  59.3 1960 1977 2209  8802  .817
32   Vladimir Guerrero  59.1 1996 2011 2147  9059  .931
33        Jason Giambi  58.9 1995 2013 2234  8838  .919
34           Sal Bando  58.0 1966 1981 2019  8287  .760
35            Jim Wynn  57.4 1963 1977 1920  8011  .802
36        Brett Butler  57.4 1981 1997 2213  9545  .753
37        Kenny Lofton  57.2 1991 2007 2103  9235  .794
38         Jim Edmonds  56.7 1993 2010 2011  7980  .903
39        Reggie Smith  55.8 1966 1982 1987  8051  .855
40        Johnny Damon  55.6 1995 2012 2490 10917  .785
41           Ken Boyer  55.6 1955 1969 2034  8272  .810
42         Bob Johnson  55.5 1933 1945 1863  8050  .899
43        Fred McGriff  55.3 1986 2004 2460 10174  .886
44          Will Clark  54.9 1986 2000 1976  8283  .880
45         Vada Pinson  54.8 1958 1975 2470 10402  .769
46          Jack Clark  54.1 1975 1992 1994  8230  .854
47         Brian Giles  53.9 1995 2009 1847  7836  .902
48      Ivan Rodriguez  53.9 1991 2011 2543 10270  .798
49     Willie Randolph  53.7 1975 1992 2202  9461  .724
50         Todd Helton  53.7 1997 2013 2247  9453  .953
Rk              Player  oWAR From   To    G    PA   OPS
</PRE


   8. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 12:36 PM (#4609507)
Top 50 pitchers since 1916 not in the Hall of Fame sorted by career WAR:

<PRE>                                                                              
Rk            Player   WAR From   To    G  GS  CG SHO   W   L W-L%     IP ERA+
1      Roger Clemens 139.2 1984 2007  709 707 118  46 354 184 .658 4916.2  143
2        Greg Maddux 104.8 1986 2008  744 740 109  35 355 227 .610 5008.1  132
3      Randy Johnson 104.1 1988 2009  618 603 100  37 303 166 .646 4135.1  135
4     Pedro Martinez  85.9 1992 2009  476 409  46  17 219 100 .687 2827.1  154
5       Mike Mussina  82.7 1991 2008  537 536  57  23 270 153 .638 3562.2  123
6     Curt Schilling  80.7 1988 2007  569 436  83  20 216 146 .597 3261.0  127
7        Tom Glavine  74.0 1987 2008  682 682  56  25 305 203 .600 4413.1  118
8        Kevin Brown  68.7 1986 2005  486 476  72  17 211 144 .594 3256.1  127
9      Rick Reuschel  68.2 1972 1991  557 529 102  26 214 191 .528 3548.1  114
10       John Smoltz  66.6 1988 2009  723 481  53  16 213 155 .579 3473.0  125
11        Luis Tiant  65.9 1964 1982  573 484 187  49 229 172 .571 3486.1  114
12      Roy Halladay  65.6 1998 2013  416 390  67  20 203 105 .659 2749.1  131
13        Tommy John  62.2 1963 1989  760 700 162  46 288 231 .555 4710.1  111
14        David Cone  61.8 1986 2003  450 419  56  22 194 126 .606 2898.2  121
15     Andy Pettitte  61.0 1995 2013  531 521  26   4 256 153 .626 3316.0  117
16   Bret Saberhagen  59.2 1984 2001  399 371  76  16 167 117 .588 2562.2  126
17      Chuck Finley  58.4 1986 2002  524 467  63  15 200 173 .536 3197.1  115
18      Frank Tanana  57.6 1973 1993  638 616 143  34 240 236 .504 4188.1  106
19     Jerry Koosman  57.2 1967 1985  612 527 140  33 222 209 .515 3839.1  110
20        Dave Stieb  56.8 1979 1998  443 412 103  30 176 137 .562 2895.1  122
21    Mariano Rivera  56.5 1995 2013 1115  10   0   0  82  60 .577 1283.2  205
22        Tim Hudson  55.4 1999 2013  427 426  25  13 205 111 .649 2813.2  124
23      Kevin Appier  55.0 1989 2004  414 402  34  12 169 137 .552 2595.1  121
24     Urban Shocker  54.8 1916 1928  412 317 200  28 187 117 .615 2681.2  124
25      Mark Buehrle  54.4 2000 2013  454 429  29   9 186 142 .567 2882.2  117
Rk            Player   WAR From   To    G  GS  CG SHO   W   L W
-L%     IP ERA+
26       CC Sabathia  54.4 2001 2013  415 415  37  12 205 115 .641 2775.1  121
27       David Wells  53.5 1987 2007  660 489  54  12 239 157 .604 3439.0  108
28      Billy Pierce  52.9 1945 1964  585 432 193  38 211 169 .555 3306.2  119
29     Tommy Bridges  52.6 1930 1946  424 362 200  33 194 138 .584 2826.1  126
30     Larry Jackson  52.5 1955 1968  558 429 149  37 194 183 .515 3262.2  113
31       Wilbur Wood  52.3 1961 1978  651 297 114  24 164 156 .513 2684.0  114
32       Bobo Newsom  51.8 1929 1953  600 483 246  31 211 222 .487 3759.1  107
33    Orel Hershiser  51.7 1983 2000  510 466  68  25 204 150 .576 3130.1  112
34     Dutch Leonard  51.4 1933 1953  640 375 192  30 191 181 .513 3218.1  119
35      Kenny Rogers  51.1 1989 2008  762 474  36   9 219 156 .584 3302.2  107
36     Johan Santana  50.6 2000 2012  360 284  15  10 139  78 .641 2025.2  136
37      Eddie Rommel  50.5 1920 1932  500 249 147  18 171 119 .590 2556.1  121
38       Jamie Moyer  50.3 1986 2012  696 638  33  10 269 209 .563 4074.0  103
39     Mark Langston  50.2 1984 1999  457 428  81  18 179 158 .531 2962.2  107
40        Roy Oswalt  49.9 2001 2013  365 341  20   8 163 102 .615 2245.1  127
41         Jimmy Key  49.4 1984 1998  470 389  34  13 186 117 .614 2591.2  122
42   Dennis Martinez  49.4 1976 1998  692 562 122  30 245 193 .559 3999.2  106
43     Mickey Lolich  48.9 1963 1979  586 496 195  41 217 191 .532 3638.1  104
44       Wes Ferrell  48.7 1927 1941  374 323 227  17 193 128 .601 2623.0  116
45        Mel Harder  48.1 1928 1947  582 433 181  25 223 186 .545 3426.1  113
46     Dwight Gooden  48.0 1984 2000  430 410  68  24 194 112 .634 2800.2  111
47        Ron Guidry  47.9 1975 1988  368 323  95  26 170  91 .651 2392.0  119
48       Frank Viola  47.3 1982 1996  421 420  74  16 176 150 .540 2836.1  112
49       Milt Pappas  47.0 1957 1973  520 465 129  43 209 164 .560 3186.0  110
50        Bob Friend  46.8 1951 1966  602 497 163  36 197 230 .461 3611.0  107
Rk            Player   WAR From   To    G  GS  CG SHO   W   L W
-L%     IP ERA+
51        Jack Quinn  46.6 1918 1933  542 294 147  23 168 145 .537 2616.0  119
</PRE

   9. dlf Posted: December 03, 2013 at 12:36 PM (#4609508)
It seems like for this project a straight up WAR list would get you 80% there or so, and the remaining 20% can be quibbled with, with no real right or wrong answers.


Straight WAR - with the ~20% caveats for the degree of precision about defense, post season, War (the kind where people die, not just Murray Chass stroking out) credit, "character", etc. - works well for the pure career voter. But for peak voters, I'd think something like Wins Above 2x Average and for extended prime, something like Wins Above Average. Personally, I tend to blend them - in an imprecise and ad hoc fashion - believing that the Hall should have both the Don Suttons and the Sandy Koufaxes.
   10. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 03, 2013 at 12:49 PM (#4609525)
Ray: You need to drop players that don't qualify for the HOF because they haven't been retired for at least 5 years (Jones, Griffey, Ramirez, Halladay, etc.)

Using the same idea as Ray:

Top 50 players by WAR that qualify for this survey (5 years retired, not in HOF):
#  Name          WAR
1 Barry Bonds 162.6
2 Roger Clemens 139.2
3 Greg Maddux 104.8
4 Mike Mussina 82.7
5 Curt Schilling 80.7
6 Pete Rose 79.8
7 Jeff Bagwell 79.6
8 Lou Whitaker 74.8
9 Tom Glavine 74.0
10 Frank Thomas 73.6
11 Larry Walker 72.4
12 Rafael Palmeiro 71.8
13 Bobby Grich 71.0
14 Alan Trammell 70.3
15 Tim Raines 68.8
16 Kevin Brown 68.7
17 Rick Reuschel 68.2
18 Edgar Martinez 68.1
19 Kenny Lofton 67.9
20 Graig Nettles 67.9
21 Dwight Evans 66.9
22 Buddy Bell 66.0
23 Luis Tiant 65.9
24 Willie Randolph 65.6
25 Craig Biggio 64.8
26 Reggie Smith 64.3
27 Ken Boyer 62.9
28 Shoeless Joe Jackson 62.6
29 Tommy John 62.2
30 Mark McGwire 62.0
31 David Cone 61.8
32 Sal Bando 61.5
33 Willie Davis 60.8
34 Keith Hernandez 60.1
35 Bret Saberhagen 59.2
36 Mike Piazza 59.2
37 Sherry Magee 59.1
38 Jack Quinn 58.9
39 Dick Allen 58.6
40 Darrell Evans 58.5
41 Chuck Finley 58.4
42 Sammy Sosa 58.3
43 John Olerud 58.1
44 Bobby Bonds 57.7
45 Frank Tanana 57.6
46 Joe Torre 57.3
47 Jerry Koosman 57.2
48 Bob Johnson 57.2
49 Eddie Cicotte 56.9
50 Dave Stieb 56.8


Edit: Ugh. I've lost the formatting for it. Sorry for the mess.
   11. zonk Posted: December 03, 2013 at 12:53 PM (#4609530)
I have a hard time seeing Lou Whitaker as a bigger travesty than Alan Trammell... maybe I'm just being too peak and maybe I'm penalizing Whitaker for spending the second half of his career as a platoon player, but that just feels wrong to me.
   12. Chris Fluit Posted: December 03, 2013 at 12:58 PM (#4609535)
The ballot allows you to vote for Negro League and 19th century candidates as well. From the Negro Leagues, Alejandro Oms and Quincy Trouppe were elected to the Hall of Merit while Dick Redding continues to get strong support. There's also Buck O'Neil, who is more renowned as an ambassador of the game than as a player but his overall career could be worthy of the Hall of Fame.
   13. cardsfanboy Posted: December 03, 2013 at 01:00 PM (#4609539)
I have a hard time seeing Lou Whitaker as a bigger travesty than Alan Trammell... maybe I'm just being too peak and maybe I'm penalizing Whitaker for spending the second half of his career as a platoon player, but that just feels wrong to me.


I'm a pro-Whitaker for the hof guy, but yes Trammell is the bigger travesty.

I still argue that his "platooning" is overstated by people, he still saw plenty of plate appearances against the same handed pitchers even after he became a "platooner".
   14. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 01:05 PM (#4609545)
A comparison of my WAR list with my oWAR list reveals, if I've eyeballed it right, the following players who get killed by their defense by WAR:

Jeter (moves up from 13 on the WAR list to 3 on the oWAR list)
MRamirez (18 to 7)
Sheffield (37 to 9)
Biggio (28 to 12)
DAllen (42 to 14)
Piazza (41 to 19)
McGwire (32 to 20)
BWilliams (81 to 21)
MCabrera (57 to 22)
Harrah (68 to 26)
Kent (56 to 30)
Torre (49 to 31)
Giambi (71 to 33)
Wynn (54 to 35)
Butler (80 to 36)
JDamon (51 to 40)
McGriff (65 to 43)
WClark (52 to 44)
VPinson (59 to 45)
JClark (62 to 46)
BGiles (72 to 47)


   15. Greg K Posted: December 03, 2013 at 01:24 PM (#4609557)
Based on popular perception I'd say the average fan probably agrees with WAR's defensive penalties there, except for probably Biggio, Damon, Butler, and Wynn? Butler and Wynn were before my time, so I could be way off as to how they were perceived.

Piazza, Manny, Giambi, and Allen all have poor defence as a solid part of their identity. Williams and Sheffield to a lesser extent.

Oh yeah, missed Jeter at the top there. Certainly a disconnect between the numbers and popular perception there, though that has been covered to death.
   16. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 01:25 PM (#4609558)
I still argue that his "platooning" is overstated by people,


Just thinking aloud here, but isn't platooning pretty analagous to DHing or closing? Its putting players in situations that hide their flaws and allow them to be great. Even if Lou made his living platooned (which I agree with #13, that is overstated), is it not that different from Bruce Sutter closing or Edgar Martinez DHing?
   17. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 01:31 PM (#4609563)
A comparison of my WAR list with my oWAR list reveals, if I've eyeballed it right, the following players who get helped by their defense to a significant degree, by WAR:

Pujols (moves up from 10 on the oWAR list to 3 on the WAR list)
LWalker (24 to 11)
Beltre (60 to 15)
Rolen (61 to 17)
IRod (48 to 20)
Lofton (37 to 22)
Nettles (59 to 23)
BBell (84 to 26)
Randolph (49 to 27)
Boyer (41 to 30)
AJones (148! to 31)
WDavis (80 to 35)
KHernandez (91 to 39)
Ichiro (81 to 43)
Sosa (70 to 45)
Utley (105 to 46)
Olerud (73 to 47)
BBonds (64 to 48)

I don't think people realize when looking at a straight WAR list just how much the defensive rating is playing in to the results.
   18. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 01:33 PM (#4609564)
I still argue that his "platooning" is overstated by people,


I was surprised to see this statement coming from you, someone who seriously penalizes Pedro for durability.
   19. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4609567)
Based on popular perception I'd say the average fan probably agrees with WAR's defensive penalties there, except for probably Biggio, Damon, Butler, and Wynn? Butler and Wynn were before my time, so I could be way off as to how they were perceived.


The biggest issue is the magnitude of the defensive factor. Ramirez, Sheffield, Giambi, Cabrera, Kent, Butler, McGriff, Giles... these players get murdered by dWAR.

Conversely, Beltre and Andruw, two popular Hall candidates here, get helped to a large degree. Andruw in particular is nothing without the defense rating.

Sammy Sosa's plus defensive rating did surprise me. I understood from the general conversation here that people had little regard for his defense.
   20. Greg K Posted: December 03, 2013 at 01:41 PM (#4609568)

I don't think people realize when looking at a straight WAR list just how much the defensive rating is playing in to the results.

I think they do. Or at least, people at this website do. When someone argues Rolen or Beltre for the Hall, they'll refer to the fact that they are historically great defenders pretty much every time. Guys like Ichiro, Keith Hernandez, Boyer, Bell, Nettles, Lofton...defence plays a huge role in any argument for these players (whether you use WAR or hate it). I mean, defence (and positional adjustment) is kind of the point of WAR for me. If I didn't want a significant inclusion of defensive value I'd just use PA and OPS+ or runs created or something.
   21. Greg K Posted: December 03, 2013 at 01:44 PM (#4609574)
Sammy Sosa's plus defensive rating did surprise me. I understood from the general conversation here that people had little regard for his defense.

Yeah Sosa is an odd one. By WAR he accumulated almost all of his defensive value before 1998, when he was a player almost no one thinks of when they think of Sosa. A point unrelated to Sosa, I would guess defensive value is hurt more than anything else by a player having a prolonged decline phase. Obviously your OPS declines if you stick around until you're 40, but I would think the defensive runs above average would be hurt even more. A solidly above average defender can turn into a firmly below average one by sticking around in his mid-30s...seems like there is a greater swing between peak and decline than in hitting.
   22. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 03, 2013 at 01:45 PM (#4609575)

The biggest issue is the magnitude of the defensive factor. Ramirez, Sheffield, Giambi, Cabrera, Kent, Butler, McGriff, Giles... these players get murdered by dWAR.


This is my biggest problem with WAR. I think the defensive metrics in general do a pretty good job of identifying who is/is not a good defender but I'm not convinced they've got the order of magnitude right yet.
   23. cardsfanboy Posted: December 03, 2013 at 01:45 PM (#4609576)
I was surprised to see this statement coming from you, someone who seriously penalizes Pedro for durability.


I penalize players for durability during their prime years. A starting pitcher missing 3+ starts(10%) during his best years is a huge drain on the team. I still have Pedro as a hofer, just not as high as some people. I still think of Walker, Larkin and others as hofers, and about the only person who goes from the in to the out line because of durability, is Dick Allen and that is partially because it's a product of his own doing.

Add in that post 33 age season, few players play everyday. Stan Musial never played 140 games after his age 35 season(yes 154 game season, still missing roughly 20 games a year) Hornsby never broke 100 games played after his age 33 season. In Sandbergs last five seasons(33-37, he broke 135 once..same could be said about Joe Morgan.

Whitaker was at least available if needed, but wasn't always playing, that is not the same issue as durability problems.
   24. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4609584)
The WAR and oWAR lists are very different. The players who appear high on both lists nobody will have a problem with, absent the steroids silliness that has ruined the Hall; it's the fringe players that are the problematic ones, and it's where the real HOF debate lies.
   25. Randy Jones Posted: December 03, 2013 at 01:53 PM (#4609585)
I have a hard time seeing Lou Whitaker as a bigger travesty than Alan Trammell... maybe I'm just being too peak and maybe I'm penalizing Whitaker for spending the second half of his career as a platoon player, but that just feels wrong to me.

The travesty is Whitaker falling off the ballot after one year, while we get year after year of ######## articles about Jack Morris, winningest pitcher of the 1980's...but yes, Trammell is the better player, both he and Whitaker deserve to be in the HoF.
   26. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2013 at 02:01 PM (#4609594)
Sammy sosa's defensive prowess ties directly to his hitting prowess. when he was young Sammy could have played a passable centerfield and up until 1997 or so he was an above average right fielder who could have been considered very good if not for the scattershot throws a la vlad.

after he began hitting oodles of homers his range decreased, he still made sh8tty throws and at times he looked like a buffoon as he had lost some of his flexibility/agility.

by the time Sammy was 31 or so he was a poor outfielder. it was very distressing to see
   27. Greg K Posted: December 03, 2013 at 02:04 PM (#4609597)
The WAR and oWAR lists are very different. The players who appear high on both lists nobody will have a problem with, absent the steroids silliness that has ruined the Hall; it's the fringe players that are the problematic ones, and it's where the real HOF debate lies.

I think you're right, the WAR lists do a good job of pointing out where the debates lie.

Were Beltre and Rolen good enough defenders to warrant inclusion? (I suspect yes)
Were Manny and Sheffield poor enough defenders to warrant exclusion? (I'd guess Manny no, Sheffield...I really have no idea)
Was Andruw Jones such a phenomenal defender he deserves to be in? (I'm fairly sure no)

Was Keith Hernandez so transcendent at first that he deserves to be in? (Head says no, but my heart says yes!)

Is Kenny Lofton already off the ballot? I've been mulling it over lately and thought he'd be a fine personal favourite for me to annoy people by pushing all the time.
   28. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2013 at 02:06 PM (#4609598)
Harvey's 2.5 cents

yes to the top 10 save for number 6 of course

yes to 13-15

yes to 36


1 Barry Bonds 162.6
2 Roger Clemens 139.2
3 Greg Maddux 104.8
4 Mike Mussina 82.7
5 Curt Schilling 80.7
6 Pete Rose 79.8
7 Jeff Bagwell 79.6
8 Lou Whitaker 74.8
9 Tom Glavine 74.0
10 Frank Thomas 73.6
11 Larry Walker 72.4
12 Rafael Palmeiro 71.8
13 Bobby Grich 71.0
14 Alan Trammell 70.3
15 Tim Raines 68.8
16 Kevin Brown 68.7
17 Rick Reuschel 68.2
18 Edgar Martinez 68.1
19 Kenny Lofton 67.9
20 Graig Nettles 67.9
21 Dwight Evans 66.9
22 Buddy Bell 66.0
23 Luis Tiant 65.9
24 Willie Randolph 65.6
25 Craig Biggio 64.8
26 Reggie Smith 64.3
27 Ken Boyer 62.9
28 Shoeless Joe Jackson 62.6
29 Tommy John 62.2
30 Mark McGwire 62.0
31 David Cone 61.8
32 Sal Bando 61.5
33 Willie Davis 60.8
34 Keith Hernandez 60.1
35 Bret Saberhagen 59.2
36 Mike Piazza 59.2
37 Sherry Magee 59.1
38 Jack Quinn 58.9
39 Dick Allen 58.6
40 Darrell Evans 58.5
41 Chuck Finley 58.4
42 Sammy Sosa 58.3
43 John Olerud 58.1
44 Bobby Bonds 57.7
45 Frank Tanana 57.6
46 Joe Torre 57.3
47 Jerry Koosman 57.2
48 Bob Johnson 57.2
49 Eddie Cicotte 56.9
50 Dave Stieb 56.8
   29. zonk Posted: December 03, 2013 at 02:09 PM (#4609599)
Yeah - I'm not at all belittling Whitaker in the Trammell comparison.... and actually - I probably haven't really looked at Alan and Lou side by side since... geez... having both their baseball cards in hand back in the 80s?

Comparing them just now on BB-REF -- I think that I was actually wrong about even thinking Trammell was a bigger travesty. He might be for peak voters -- though spread out, Trammell just had a few superior 'great' seasons.... but I have to admit - I'm shocked to find that 1)Whitaker actually has a higher career OPS+ (117 vs 110) than Trammell, 2) Beats Trammell in virtually every counting stat that matters (2369 hits vs 2365, 244 HRs vs 184, 1197 BBs vs 850), 3)Despite only having less a season's more PAs than Trammell. Trammell's only real edge is in dWAR (at least bbrefs dWAR).

Literally until taking a closer look at them just now -- I thought Whitaker was a travesty and should be in the HoF -- but thought the idea that Trammell isn't yet/likely won't be was a bigger travesty.

In the past hour - I have completely, utterly changed my mind.... The WAR list that shows Whitaker over Trammell does make sense if you spend a half hour with the numbers.

In fact, given that Whitaker's heyday was during my sweet spot as a baseball fan - I'm actually embarrassed to realize that I didn't think more of him (In my defense, I was an NL guy... and once upon a time, if you were an NL guy, you really didn't see much of the "other league" back then).

I have a new answer to the question "Who do you think is the most underrated player n baseball history?"

In my mind, at least, I think my answer just might be Lou Whitaker.
   30. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2013 at 02:13 PM (#4609602)
zonk

my answer remains sal bando

bando is completely forgotten by even good baseball fans but in his day he was a d8mn good ballplayer and the common sense anchor/captain of one of the best teams of the post war era
   31. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 02:16 PM (#4609606)
Bando is consistently ranked on both lists: 33 vs 34.
   32. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2013 at 02:19 PM (#4609614)
to clarify not pushing bando for the hall of fame. but in the vague 'most underrated' discussion he is at the top of my list for reasons above. (among others)

horrible gm though. just a train wreck
   33. zonk Posted: December 03, 2013 at 02:29 PM (#4609625)
I can excuse myself on Bando as I only vaguely remember him as a Brewer, when he was at the end of the line.... but Whitaker, I feel like I have no excuse for.
   34. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2013 at 02:38 PM (#4609636)
zonk

in almost every way whitaker is THAT choice for that mantle. him or grich most likely

bando is just a personal favorite of mine. he was one tough sob
   35. zonk Posted: December 03, 2013 at 02:51 PM (#4609656)
I think I will also blame my brother.... I was a Cubs fan, he was a Tigers fan growing up. We'd argue all offseason about which team was better and we'd eventually go position by position.... Parrish vs Davis.... Evans vs Cey.... As I recall, he'd give up WAAAAYYYY to easily at 2B - so I think that's the seedling of my underrating of Whitaker. My brother's complete failure to muster any sort of defense of Whitaker's honor against Sandberg. As I recall, not even so much as a "Well, it's close..." or even a "But Whitaker is still pretty good". He would just skip past 2B or acknowledge Sandberg as the unquestionably superior player without so much as batting an eye.

What's worse - I'm pretty sure he saved his best stuff for Morris vs Sutcliffe ;-)
   36. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 04:03 PM (#4609735)
The biggest issue is the magnitude of the defensive factor. Ramirez, Sheffield, Giambi, Cabrera, Kent, Butler, McGriff, Giles... these players get murdered by dWAR.

I think you need to separate someone like McGriff from someone like Sheffield when you make a statement like this. dWAR includes both the positional adjustment and the actual quality of a player's fielding at his position. McGriff has -18.1 dWAR but about 15 of that is the normal positional adjustment from playing 1B/DH. I don't think there's a lot of disagreement around the size of that adjustment in the SABR community. The difference between his oWAR and his WAR (what you should really be looking at) is only 3 wins, which is not a lot over a 2500-game career.

To say that McGriff (or Kent or Giles) are getting murdered by dWAR is hyperbole -- it affects your WAR rankings a lot because there are a lot of non-HOFers bunched up around 50-60 WAR (not surprisingly since most guys over that level are probably in already), but we're talking 3-4 wins over the course of their careers. That is not what is keeping them out of the Hall and for those three, at least, it seems to conform with popular perception of their defense.

Sheffield, on the other hand, has -28.6 dWAR, and about 20 of that is related to the quality of his fielding. Manny and Giambi also have relatively large negative Rfield numbers. Cabrera will likely rack up a huge negative Rfield by the time he is done. But similar to the guys above, dWAR is not what's keeping them out of the Hall. Brett Butler was one-and-done with the BBWAA several years before dWAR existed. Cabrera will likely get voted in regardless.
   37. Ron J2 Posted: December 03, 2013 at 04:07 PM (#4609741)
#9 I keep threatening to revive Dale Stephenson's peak lists. They were a great little addition to these career lists.
   38. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2013 at 04:07 PM (#4609743)
gary Sheffield did more to keep gary Sheffield out of the hall of fame than gary's lack of defensive ability.

   39. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4609776)
gary Sheffield did more to keep gary Sheffield out of the hall of fame than gary's lack of defensive ability.


A 140 OPS+ in 2500 games is hard to handwave away.
   40. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4609777)
I think you need to separate someone like McGriff from someone like Sheffield when you make a statement like this. dWAR includes both the positional adjustment and the actual quality of a player's fielding at his position. McGriff has -18.1 dWAR but about 15 of that is the normal positional adjustment from playing 1B/DH. I don't think there's a lot of disagreement around the size of that adjustment in the SABR community. The difference between his oWAR and his WAR (what you should really be looking at) is only 3 wins, which is not a lot over a 2500-game career.


No, because my point is explicitly to point out the wide dichotomy in the WAR and oWAR lists, to demonstrate how citing raw WAR lists or ranking and drawing too much from them is hugely problematic.
   41. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2013 at 04:41 PM (#4609784)
post 39

do not underestimate the writers ability to hold a grudge
   42. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4609809)
Jesus, I'm counting 24 guys who, if eligible, I would vote for for the Hall this year, plus Pete Rose, who I wouldn't vote for but who would be in sans his personal issues. Yikes.
   43. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 05:09 PM (#4609812)
Yeah, how many hitters can you make serious cases for? 40?
   44. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 05:10 PM (#4609815)
Morris, by the way, doesn't make the list for top 50 non-HOF pitchers by WAR since 1916.
   45. Steve N Posted: December 03, 2013 at 05:14 PM (#4609821)
I just figured out why Joe Sewell isn't on the list. He is already in. I checked his record and note that in 1927 he stole 3 bases while being caught 16 times! Huh?
   46. Tubbs Posted: December 03, 2013 at 05:23 PM (#4609830)
bando is just a personal favorite of mine. he was one tough sob

Harvey, I'd like to hear more about what makes Bando a personal favorite of yours. I see him as somewhat close to HOF worthy but a little short. Though it was before my time the underrated Oakland dynasty is my all time favorite team. I'd like to hear yours and others thoughts on Bando.
   47. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4609847)

No, because my point is explicitly to point out the wide dichotomy in the WAR and oWAR lists, to demonstrate how citing raw WAR lists or ranking and drawing too much from them is hugely problematic.

OK, I don't think anyone was suggesting using raw WAR ranking as the sole criteria.
   48. zonk Posted: December 03, 2013 at 05:40 PM (#4609852)
Yeah, how many hitters can you make serious cases for? 40?


I can get to 40 if I include Rose and Jackson... I'm very much a big hall guy - I make no apologies or bones about that - but I would vote for the top 25 without having to give it much thought and at least half the next 25 without needing a whole lot of prodding or convincing... probably close to 2/3.

I see myself being perhaps a wee bit more discriminating on the pitcher list.

All told, I see easily 60 guys I could support for the Hall.... and probably another 15 to 20 that I would likely exclude only because of ballot space... but like I siad.... I'm very much a big hall guy.
   49. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2013 at 05:56 PM (#4609872)
tubbs

--he didn't 'look' like a any type of defensive third baseman but he was better than average
--he was built like a hockey player'
--he was a tough guy who would take on anybody
--he could cuss with the best of them
--he was a natural leader on a ballfield
--it seemed the way at the time and later validated by the stats, sal was the same player no matter how you sliced things (home/away, first half/second half, by month, rightie/leftie)
--he was a rock of the first good brewer team in 1978 before he drove off a cliff
   50. KJOK Posted: December 03, 2013 at 06:09 PM (#4609886)
I just figured out why Joe Sewell isn't on the list. He is already in. I checked his record and note that in 1927 he stole 3 bases while being caught 16 times! Huh?


Likely over 10 were busted hit and run plays.



   51. Steve Treder Posted: December 03, 2013 at 06:17 PM (#4609895)
--he was a natural leader on a ballfield

He sure was, and it always amazed me that he never became a field manager (went straight to the front office instead). Bando was named team captain of the A's practically the moment he arrived from the minor leagues, and was commonly referred to as "Captain Sal."
   52. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 03, 2013 at 06:37 PM (#4609918)
OK, I don't think anyone was suggesting using raw WAR ranking as the sole criteria.


They don't ever suggest it. They just do it. While claiming not to be.
   53. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 03, 2013 at 06:44 PM (#4609927)
I have a hard time seeing Lou Whitaker as a bigger travesty than Alan Trammell... maybe I'm just being too peak and maybe I'm penalizing Whitaker for spending the second half of his career as a platoon player, but that just feels wrong to me.


I think that has a lot to do with the fact that Ozzie, who played in the same era, same position, went right in. Trammell was such a superior hitter without giving up too much defensively that it does seem like a travesty.
Although Whitaker being one and done might be an even bigger injustice.
   54. OCF Posted: December 03, 2013 at 07:23 PM (#4609961)
Who's got the HoM but not HoF list handy?
   55. Tubbs Posted: December 04, 2013 at 12:02 AM (#4610203)
--he didn't 'look' like a any type of defensive third baseman but he was better than average


Good stuff. Thanks, Harvey and Steve
   56. The District Attorney Posted: December 04, 2013 at 01:20 AM (#4610244)
Who's got the HoM but not HoF list handy?
Looking it over, I see:

C: Charlie Bennett, Bill Freehan, Cal McVey, Mike Piazza, Joe Torre, Quincy Trouppe

1B: Jeff Bagwell, Will Clark, Keith Hernandez, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Joe Start

2B: Ross Barnes, Craig Biggio, Cupid Childs, Bobby Grich, Willie Randolph, Hardy Richardson, Lou Whitaker

3B: Dick Allen, John Beckwith, Ken Boyer, Darrell Evans, Heinie Groh, Stan Hack, Graig Nettles, Ezra Sutton

SS: Bill Dahlen, Jack Glasscock, Home Run Johnson, Dick Lundy, Dobie Moore, Dickey Pearce, Alan Trammell

LF: Barry Bonds, Charley Jones, Charlie Keller, Sherry Magee, Minnie Minoso, Tim Raines, Jimmy Sheckard, Harry Stovey

CF: Pete Browning, George Gore, Paul Hines, Alejandro Oms, Jimmy Wynn

RF: Dwight Evans, Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, Reggie Smith, Larry Walker

DH: Edgar Martinez

P: Kevin Brown, Bob Caruthers, Roger Clemens, David Cone, Wes Ferrell, Billy Pierce, Rick Reuschel, Bret Saberhagen, Dave Stieb
   57. OCF Posted: December 04, 2013 at 01:26 AM (#4610247)
Thanks. I count 61 names, so to get to 50, you just have to figure out which 11 to leave off.
   58. The District Attorney Posted: December 04, 2013 at 01:35 AM (#4610248)
62 now... I missed Clemens (it's funny how I can still be either illogical or logical enough to go down a list and think "yeah, Roger Clemens has gotta be in the Hall of Fame")... hopefully I didn't forget more, but I probably did.

So yeah, that'd be a reasonable starting point, although I think you need to throw in Schilling, Sosa and Lofton, whom the HOM hasn't really had the chance to "fully consider" yet.¹

Since obviously Maddux, Thomas, Glavine, Mussina and Kent will be joining the HOM ballot as well, it's frightening to think about what that implies: Even if all the "no-brainer if not for PED" players had sailed right into the HOF, there could still be eight very qualified guys on this ballot!

¹ Although of course I know the HOM never declares anyone "fully considered."
   59. zonk Posted: December 04, 2013 at 01:36 AM (#4610249)
Thanks. I count 61 names, so to get to 50, you just have to figure out which 11 to leave off.


Heh... I'm almost wanting to say Reggie Smith just so I can enjoy the tongue lashing I got in another HoF thread years ago by a roving HoM gang for questioning him :-
   60. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 04, 2013 at 01:56 AM (#4610252)
Whitaker being one and done might be an even bigger injustice.


Not only is it an injustice, I find it kind of mystifying. I mean, he retired when I was 15, but I remember there being this general feeling around baseball that Whitaker was a shoo-in. And then . . . pffft. How do you go from a no-doubter to one-and-done in five years?
   61. OCF Posted: December 04, 2013 at 03:13 AM (#4610268)
62 now... I missed Clemens (it's funny how I can still be either illogical or logical enough to go down a list and think "yeah, Roger Clemens has gotta be in the Hall of Fame").

Make it 63: Pete Rose. (More or less the same issue.)
   62. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 04, 2013 at 09:24 AM (#4610281)
voxter

it's how his career wound down and the nature of the tigers at the end of his career.

he was platoon player the last 5-6 years. the tigers finished over .500 a few times but mostly were regarded as a glorified softball team. lou had told managers not to pick him for the all star team so he wasn't getting any degree of national attention. lou certainly wasn't working the press by any means.

whitaker just faded into the background and when the vote took place to the writers whitaker had not been retired 5 years, it had been 10-12. lou had disappeared himself from their memories
   63. dlf Posted: December 04, 2013 at 09:32 AM (#4610285)
Whitaker was also a bit of an airhead who didn't fit into the writers neat little boxes. To some, it appeared that he coasted by with litle effort or attention and was a 'what could have been.' This contrasted with his teamates like Gibson, Morris, and Parrish who seemed to the general fans and writers to have squeezed every last ounce out of their talents. Personally, I reject this -- even if true, what matters is result, not effort -- but these perceptions need to be accounted for in how he was treated by the voters.
   64. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: December 04, 2013 at 07:11 PM (#4610789)
2B: Ross Barnes, Craig Biggio, Cupid Childs, Bobby Grich, Willie Randolph, Hardy Richardson, Lou Whitaker

3B: Dick Allen, John Beckwith, Ken Boyer, Darrell Evans, Heinie Groh, Stan Hack, Graig Nettles, Ezra Sutton

SS: Bill Dahlen, Jack Glasscock, Home Run Johnson, Dick Lundy, Dobie Moore, Dickey Pearce, Alan Trammell


Annoyed Tigers fan is annoyed.
   65. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: December 04, 2013 at 07:24 PM (#4610802)
(Whitaker) was platoon player the last 5-6 years.

Er, no. In Lou's last 6 seasons (1990-95), he had 552, 572, 544, 476, 372 and 285 PA and 130, 135, 119, 110, 83 and 63 games played at 2B. He was a "platoon player" for only those last two seasons (maybe three, but it's a stretch; even so, he managed 8.1 WAR from 1993-95).

the tigers finished over .500 a few times but mostly were regarded as a glorified softball team.

I don't even know what the hell this means. (Did they bring back the Detroit Caesars or something?)

lou had told managers not to pick him for the all star team so he wasn't getting any degree of national attention.

I've never heard of this, and it sounds like BS to me. He did play in five ASGs a row from 1983-87.
   66. RJ in TO Posted: December 04, 2013 at 07:48 PM (#4610820)
I don't even know what the hell this means. (Did they bring back the Detroit Caesars or something?)

I know what he means. Fielder, Deer, Tettleton, Incaviglia - a team loaded with lumbering sluggers who mostly couldn't field worth a damn. Walks, homers, and lots and lots of strikeouts, and an entire staff of innings eaters. Every game seemed to be a 6-5 win for someone. Honestly, it was part of why I liked watching them, as it was almost guaranteed that you would see a shot into the upper deck, but it was often talked about more as beer league than major league.
   67. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: December 04, 2013 at 08:23 PM (#4610834)
I'd be content with a Hall of Fame that included everyone on that first WAR list, the one that included not-yet eligibles. It would have the virtue of consistency that's sorely lacking in the real one. As for this one:

Top 50 players by WAR that qualify for this survey (5 years retired, not in HOF)


I think I'd let in the top 32 names, plus Mike Piazza.
   68. DanG Posted: December 04, 2013 at 08:33 PM (#4610843)
Er, no. In Lou's last 6 seasons (1990-95), he had 552, 572, 544, 476, 372 and 285 PA and 130, 135, 119, 110, 83 and 63 games played at 2B. He was a "platoon player" for only those last two seasons (maybe three, but it's a stretch; even so, he managed 8.1 WAR from 1993-95).
Well, yes. After 1989, Whitaker never started 120 games at 2B; Tony Phillips played 2B when a lefty started. As a leadoff man in the 1980's he was regularly over 600 PA. His platoon splits were huge. And he wasn't really into conditioning, so resting him against lefties helped him last through the season.
Just thinking aloud here, but isn't platooning pretty analagous to DHing or closing? Its putting players in situations that hide their flaws and allow them to be great.
This. Those good WAR scores Lou posted in the 1990's are entirely due to platooning.

I still think he belongs in the Hall, but Sparky was good at using players in ways they could succeed, and not asking them to do things they couldn't.
   69. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: December 04, 2013 at 09:28 PM (#4610861)
Gavvy Cravath.
   70. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 04, 2013 at 10:04 PM (#4610870)
rmc

In reverse Lou explained the ASG item in several interviews. He was a worthy candidate several times but had told folks he was not interested any longer

The tigers had a slew of guys who walked, hit homers and not much BA. The softball line is not original. It was used regularly to describe a team that slugged its way to wins. Gripes I think even bill James used this comparison

As for platoon Lou sat against lefties more frequently as a full time player would have 650 plate appearances in a season

None of this is new info. Surprised the vehemence of the response
   71. Tubbs Posted: December 04, 2013 at 10:19 PM (#4610874)
I still think he belongs in the Hall, but Sparky was good at using players in ways they could succeed, and not asking them to do things they couldn't.


...except for Game 4 of the '87 ALCS when he put Darrell Evans at 3B, a position he hadn't played regularly since coming to Detroit :-p.


Those good WAR scores Lou posted in the 1990's are entirely due to platooning

How significantly do you think it would have affected his WAR if he had regularly played against lefties? I assume he'd probably be close to or above replacement level but I could his WAA taking somewhat of a hit..

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