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Monday, January 04, 2010

BPro: Goldstein: State of the Prospectus

The State of the Prospectus is here! (puts lengthy State of the Gabrielle Union Undress on hold)

While you have seen his name for a few months here, I would also like to talk about the work that Eric Seidman is doing that will be revealed in the coming months. In 2010, you will see new searchable, sortable player cards with career statistics, all of the BP family of stats, PECOTA projections, and more on a single easy-to-use, easy-to-read page. This is the one encyclopedic tool that many of you have been waiting for, and I think our readers will be thrilled with the results. Eric is also taking on a role as our statistical evangelist. We have a lot of great metrics out there, many which are unfortunately buried within our current public offering. That is going to change, and Eric will be spending a lot of time talking about our numbers, as well as many of the new metrics currently in development, and explaining the nuts and bolts around them, and why they are the best out there at accurately measuring team and player performance.

Some specific projects our entire stats team is working on (but are hardly limited to) include:

    1. SIERA (Skill Interactive ERA): A run estimator that corrects QERA’s flaws and dethrones it as the most accurate of its kind. There’s a long explanation of SIERA in the upcoming Baseball Prospectus 2010, and look for it here soon.

    2. New, “from the ground up” defensive measurements, including a separate project that will result in a state-of-the-art metric for measuring the value of catcher defense.

    3. A revamped and much improved MORP.

As always PECOTA will be an important part of our product offering. Once a series of complicated Excel spreadsheets and thousands of lines of Stata code residing on Nate Silver’s laptop, we’ve moved PECOTA to a more stable and sharable development environment with the assistance of Nate, which will allow PECOTA to continue its growth as the most detailed projection system available. With our fearless statistical leader Clay Davenport at the helm, we expect to share with you many new and exciting developments concerning PECOTA in 2010 and beyond.

Repoz Posted: January 04, 2010 at 02:43 PM | 86 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: baseball geeks, books, business, community, media, site news

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   1. Tricky Dick Posted: January 04, 2010 at 03:01 PM (#3426993)
Cot's Contracts will become part of the BP ventures?
   2. ekogan Posted: January 04, 2010 at 03:03 PM (#3426994)
... the most accurate of its kind ...
... a state-of-the-art metric ...
... the most detailed projection system ...
... the deluge of new content ...
... blogs that go far beyond Unfiltered ...


Most Hype Over Replacement Evar?
   3. Danny Posted: January 04, 2010 at 03:17 PM (#3426998)
Has anyone studied QERA compared to FIP or xFIP? I'm curious to see what inputs SIERA has--whether it's just adding batted ball data or whether it also looks at pitchers' stuff.

Does "from the ground up" mean PBP defensive stats? A someone who's bought every BP book since 2000 and subscribed since it went for pay, it really bothers me that they haven't yet purchased the BIS or Stats data packages.

Sounds as though Silver is mostly out, even with regard to PECOTA. That's unfortunate, but maybe making it more "sharable" will allow for more interactive use for subscribers (lineup toys, real in-season projections, updated projected standings).
   4. RB in NYC (Now with New iPhone!) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 03:26 PM (#3427002)
As for Cot's: The product as you all know and love will now be hosted at baseballprospectus.com with a variety of visual improvements, and will remain a free product.

That's all I care about.
   5. AROM Posted: January 04, 2010 at 03:36 PM (#3427004)
the most detailed projection system


Matt Wieters broke it, so even the unashamed shills can't call the most accurate anymore.

It just turns me off to even bother clicking on the whole article to see this kind of hype. I have no idea how Qera compares to all the other era normalizers out there, or is so great about this new metric Siera. But I'm pretty sure Goldstein doesn't either, it's just what he's trying to sell. Someone without a dog in the race is needed to determine which, if any, or these metrics are worth paying attention to.
   6. philly Posted: January 04, 2010 at 03:36 PM (#3427005)
As for Cot's: The product as you all know and love will now be hosted at baseballprospectus.com with a variety of visual improvements, and will remain a free product.

That's all I care about.


I would add "shareable" as a real important thing too. Jeff is a real nice guy and in the past I've asked him for data and he's just sent it to me, which was super helpful. I hope that doesn't end.
   7. Jose Can You Seabiscuit Posted: January 04, 2010 at 03:53 PM (#3427010)
But I'm pretty sure Goldstein doesn't either, it's just what he's trying to sell. Someone without a dog in the race is needed to determine which, if any, or these metrics are worth paying attention to.


This is the part that gets me about the whole thing. Goldstein is the self-proclaimed "non-stat guy" at BP. Why he is running the show and trying to sell the new stats just sounds off to me.
   8. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 03:58 PM (#3427016)
Goldstein's been involved in guerilla sports commentary for a while, though. I was reading some old STATS books from the 90s and he's in them along with guys like Pinto and James.
   9. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: January 04, 2010 at 04:22 PM (#3427034)
Academic work is shareable, and not a "product." Writings and data touted as a "product" can't be taken seriously as academic work.
   10. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 04:31 PM (#3427047)
What's academic about BPro?? Can you get a degree in sabermetrics? I would have, if I could have, but I would have probably been the kid in the back of the lecture hall pestering the prof with questions about human factors. SIERA does sound intriguing, FWIW.
   11. DCA Posted: January 04, 2010 at 04:43 PM (#3427063)
Perhaps the biggest failure of the academic world is the inability to take non-academic work seriously. In many fields, there is as much if not more quality in "products."
   12. fra paolo Posted: January 04, 2010 at 04:43 PM (#3427064)
We will also be developing a premium version [of Cot's] for our subscribers with a variety of in-depth searching and sorting tools to better mine this fantastic data.

That suggests Jeff will be less forthcoming with data than he has been.

Most of this article is about recruiting people who have been readable for free. Now they are going behind a pay wall. So those of us who object to paying for stuff on the Internet will go on to reading other people.
expect lots of obscure reference to 16th century Belgian military tactics.

Great, but Belgium didn't exist in the 16th century, so they'll be a lot of obscure references to nothing.
   13. zonk Posted: January 04, 2010 at 04:50 PM (#3427067)
Great, but Belgium didn't exist in the 16th century, so they'll be a lot of obscure references to nothing.


Stupid Flanders.
   14. DetroitMichael Posted: January 04, 2010 at 04:53 PM (#3427072)
It sounds like Joe Sheehan's writing will be replaced by more articles by Christina Kahrl and John Perotto. That sounds like a net loss to me.
   15. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:11 PM (#3427085)
Precious few (actually no) comments about why Joe's contract isn't being renewed, not that either party owes us a behind-the-scenes explanation.

It sounds like Joe Sheehan's writing will be replaced by more articles by Christina Kahrl and John Perotto. That sounds like a net loss to me.


A net loss IMO, and Perotto to my knowledge has been a beat reporter, not a columnist providing opinion/analysis.
   16. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:13 PM (#3427087)
Jon, I think sabermetric research is definitely academic, whether one can get a degree in it or not. What makes a pursuit academic in character is that it's based on research and analysis that endeavor to better document and understand aspects of the world around us. Thus, for example, Chris Jaffe and Dave Cameron, different as their subjects and styles are, are both academic baseball writers. Murray Chass, on the other hand, isn't an academic writer, because the attitude he takes toward his material isn't an academic attitude; his desire to better understand the world he writes about is tempered by preconceived opinion, and his research represents justification rather than exploration.

A writer like Chass ignores aspects of the discourse that would lead him, if he read and understood them, to abandon some of his opinions, and as such doesn't take part in what can legitimately be called an academic discourse. This gets us to the problem of research as "product." An organization like Prospectus, that by selling its research separates itself from the discourse rather than embracing and taking full part in it, is a commercial organization rather than an academic one. Its "product" is not produced from a truly academic point of view, and its legitimacy as academic work must thus be questioned, even if--and this must always also be in question--it is not consciously informed by a desire to grab eyeballs, and thus profits, that supersedes the desire to learn and understand.

My opinion, incidentally, is that this differs from proprietary work done within organizations and not made public for competitive reasons.
   17. puck Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:16 PM (#3427093)
Someone without a dog in the race is needed to determine which, if any, or these metrics are worth paying attention to.


That's what I'll miss about Colin moving there. Not to imply anything about his integrity, but now he has a dog in the fight (or at least will always have the appearance/possibility thereof).

I don't know if BPro stopped being part of the conversation across the web or if I started reading different bloggers, but it doesn't seem like people have been discussing/evaluating their stats nearly as much in the last few years.

Tango mentions discussions with Clay (or was it Nate) about adjusting the replacement level for their WARP calcs. In other cases, it seems like the group as a whole was reluctant to address the wider audience's concerns about their metrics (e.g., FRAA, writing columns as if defense stats besides FRAA didn't exist, and was there ever a public response to Colin's questions about Wieters' projection?).

I hope with Colin and Carleton there, things improve in this regard. Though to be fair, I could be reading the situation wrong.
   18. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:17 PM (#3427095)
Vaux, I think that was Don Malcolm's take on it, although his style is rather opaque and yours is more clear.
   19. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:21 PM (#3427099)
A net loss IMO, and Perotto to my knowledge has been a beat reporter, not a columnist providing opinion/analysis.


He's done both, moving more into the latter as he's moved away from the newspaper. He's also a very good writer; I prefer his stuff to Sheehan's any day.

I don't know if BPro stopped being part of the conversation across the web or if I started reading different bloggers, but it doesn't seem like people have been discussing/evaluating their stats nearly as much in the last few years.


In large part, that's because they don't give anyone outside the family any insight into what they have, so it makes it hard to discuss and evaluate their stats objectively.

-- MWE
   20. zonk Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:25 PM (#3427102)

In large part, that's because they don't give anyone outside the family any insight into what they have, so it makes it hard to discuss and evaluate their stats objectively.


Yeah, even for someone that's just a rudimentary consumer of advanced metrics rather than someone particularly interested in the peer review/academic aspects of stats -- that's always been a big problem with BPro since they went pay.

I pretty much tune out posts here that refer to their metrics.
   21. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:28 PM (#3427103)
I don't know if BPro stopped being part of the conversation across the web or if I started reading different bloggers, but it doesn't seem like people have been discussing/evaluating their stats nearly as much in the last few years.


EqA and VORP and PECOTA are used frequently, and WARP still somewhat. People still discuss/evaluate WARP.
   22. Mister High Standards Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:29 PM (#3427105)
My subscribe expires and two days and I'm trying to decide to re up or not. I have drastically cut down on my for-pay products this year, partially because of the changing economic climate, a change in my work life and a changing demands on my free time.

I have canceled and re-upted my Prospectus subscription many times since they have gone behind the wall, and I have to say I always go back to it because largely I'm happy with the quality of the work and the consistency of the work. Though, I confess I never use there stats beyond EQA.

I have Hardball Times, Fan graphs, and The Book Blog all setup on my news reader but the only two sites I go to regularly are BR, BBTF and Prospectus. I have even let my subscription to BA lapse, which I may revisit later in the year.

Should anything else be added to my newsreader?
   23. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:31 PM (#3427108)
but the only two sites I go to regularly are BR, BBTF and Prospectus.


Maybe you need a remedial course in counting?

-- MWE
   24. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:34 PM (#3427112)
Stupid Flanders.


LOL.

He's done both, moving more into the latter as he's moved away from the newspaper. He's also a very good writer; I prefer his stuff to Sheehan's any day.


Pretty much, yeah. And even in his newspaper days with the BCT, he was often the most honest source of commentary on the Pirates - much better than the actual opinion writers.
   25. Ron Johnson Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:39 PM (#3427118)
I pretty much tune out posts here that refer to their metrics.


To me it depends on the metrics. I'll use VORP, EQA and SNWL without any issues. I know the underlying methodology and the fact that it's hosted at BP doesn't change my feelings about them. But then none are really BP metrics -- they're just hosted there.

Their projections? Well I don't particularly care that their methods are a black box. And as for Clay taking them over, I think it's likely to be a good thing. When he took over from Gary Huckabay he was far more conservative (Gary's interest in projections lay in trying to find the hidden gems. Not surprisingly Vlad -- Gary's system -- was systemically optimistic)
   26. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:41 PM (#3427122)
I have Hardball Times, Fan graphs, and The Book Blog all setup on my news reader but the only two sites I go to regularly are BR, BBTF and Prospectus. I have even let my subscription to BA lapse, which I may revisit later in the year.

Should anything else be added to my newsreader?


If you like football, I recommend Smart Football and Advanced NFL Stats. There's also Residual Prolixity, but Tom over there updates relatively infrequently. As the title implies, it's leftover stuff from when he isn't writing elsewhere. He's the guy who turned me on to the other two sites. I'm kind of meh on Football Outsiders at the moment, though. SF and ANS are more about game theory, IMO, than evaluating players, while I think FO focuses on stuff like DPAR and DVOA. I like Free Darko for basketball, but it's an acquired taste.
   27. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:43 PM (#3427126)
If you like football, I recommend Smart Football and Advanced NFL Stats. There's also Residual Prolixity, but Tom over there updates relatively infrequently.


What, no Football Outsiders?
   28. Fargo Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:46 PM (#3427129)
This isn't the big merger that some of us were speculating about in relation to the Sheehan departure. I like the addition of Cot's Contracts. Whether the "multiples" of new statistics that Goldstein refers to is inclusive of some of the valuable stats that are NOT mainly of BPro's making remains to be seen, but this is at least an encouraging turn.

Nate Silver always described QERA as "a toy," so making it into a more flexible statistic is interesting and possibly useful, but the test of SIERA will be to prove itself in comparison to established alternative DIPS-based metrics -- not in comparison the QERA toy. As for PECOTA, I bet Nate's happy to be relieved of the burden of all those spreadsheet manipulations, and it's good to see that some of the metrics that Nate created, such as MORP, will undergo continued improvements and that PECOTA will be more fully integrated with other statistical reporting and projection tools. Goldstein did not address whether Nate remains a member of the BPro team, other than as an advisor in the adaptation of PECOTA. My impression is that he effectively took himself off the team last year; maybe he will continue to have an advisory role.

I see Sheehan as the "odd man out" (and not because he took himself out), especially since he was, after all, one of the relative wordsmiths at BPro and had been a co-editor of some of the earlier annuals. Perrotto is a good and prolific writer. By moving to full-time, I would speculate that he's taking over Sheehan's salary as well. I wonder whether he will continue to write for Basketball Prospectus.

While I welcome the addition of the several new analyst-writers to the BPro staff, I think the addition of the comments sections last year has been a great success (and addresses a long-standing criticism of BPro) and had led to much-needed substantive discussions as well (at least some of the time). Creating a set of blogs could take this interactive element a good bit further.
   29. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:53 PM (#3427135)
While I welcome the addition of the several new analyst-writers to the BPro staff, I think the addition of the comments sections last year has been a great success (and addresses a long-standing criticism of BPro) and had led to much-needed substantive discussions as well (at least some of the time).


I complained on more than one occasion that the setup of their comments sections is not user friendly. It's really tedious to carry on and follow discussions there. I also don't understand why some comments have to be "rated" below a certain threshold and thus disappear from view unless you click on the comment to see what it is.
   30. zonk Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:58 PM (#3427143)
I also don't understand why some comments have to be "rated" below a certain threshold and thus disappear from view unless you click on the comment to see what it is.


Because BPro's net development has now caught up to slashdot.
   31. Fargo Posted: January 04, 2010 at 05:59 PM (#3427147)
@#29: I think the setup of BPro comments isn't bad. I've seen much worse. At least it's "threaded," which makes its setup better than the BBTF comments section or Tango's "The Book" blog. The "rating" of comments on BPro substitutes to some extent for the need for an active discussion monitor. But I would rather they didn't do that but instead just had a "report this comment" and have a monitor behind the scenes, as is done in many discussion groups.
   32. bads85 Posted: January 04, 2010 at 06:00 PM (#3427149)
dethrones it as the most accurate of its kind.


But is it deadly accurate?
   33. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 06:01 PM (#3427150)
What, no Football Outsiders?


I find the stuff that Chris at Smart Football and Brian at Advanced NFL Stats do to be more interesting. I've hoped that their Extra Points section would become something like this newsblog, but it never happened. Also, one of their writers sort of rubs me the wrong way. That shouldn't matter and I should be able to overcome petty crap like that, but that doesn't help matters.
   34. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 06:03 PM (#3427152)
BTF's comments of course aren't "threaded" but there's no question which comments are new. With the BP setup, if you go in to find 20 new comments but can only get to 5 of them, when you come back later you can't identify the remaining 15.

Also, in BP there's no way to highlight the text you're trying to respond to. You have to put that text in quotation marks, which IMO is less than ideal.

It just seems like usenet years and years ago was a better interface than the one BP has.
   35. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 06:07 PM (#3427154)
BTW, Vaux, would you consider my little bios to be academic? I'm thinking of writing a potboiler to buy me some time to do more in-depth stuff like that.
   36. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: January 04, 2010 at 06:23 PM (#3427165)
Thanks for calling my writing clear, Jon! Your historical work definitely falls into the academic category in my view.
   37. Baldrick Posted: January 04, 2010 at 06:36 PM (#3427180)
@#29: I think the setup of BPro comments isn't bad. I've seen much worse. At least it's "threaded," which makes its setup better than the BBTF comments section or Tango's "The Book" blog.

I hate hate hate hate hate threaded comments.

If Primer ever goes that direction, it will be a sad day.
   38. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 06:37 PM (#3427181)
No problem, Vaux. I had an e-mail exchange about this about a year ago with him. I'm not sure of the ethics of this, but there was no personal info, so I may be able to repost it here.
   39. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: January 04, 2010 at 06:45 PM (#3427190)
Maybe I'm a luddite but I have basically no problem with the comment formatting here. Am I missing something?
   40. CW hits the pinata for the candy Posted: January 04, 2010 at 06:52 PM (#3427200)
Does "from the ground up" mean PBP defensive stats?


Yes. Play-by-play, with hit location data. That's all I can really say definitavely right now - I have a pretty good idea of how I want to implement everything right now, but no plan survives first contact with the enemy and so I'd rather not get into specifics until I know what they are.

Has anyone studied QERA compared to FIP or xFIP? I'm curious to see what inputs SIERA has--whether it's just adding batted ball data or whether it also looks at pitchers' stuff.


I haven't. What I can tell you about SIERA is that it's a DIPSish component ERA that uses some batted ball data, along the lines of an xFIP or a QERA (as opposed to a DIPSish component ERA that uses some batted ball data, along the lines of tRA). Eric Seidman and Matt Swartz designed it, and say that its RMSE to ERA in Y+1 is favorable compared to FIP, xFIP and QERA. I've seen the formula but haven't done any accuracy testing on it yet myself (spent most of the weekend going over the PECOTA projections for the book instead - now that that's wrapped up I have a little more time on my hands for other things).

Whether the "multiples" of new statistics that Goldstein refers to is inclusive of some of the valuable stats that are NOT mainly of BPro's making remains to be seen, but this is at least an encouraging turn.


In large part, that's because they don't give anyone outside the family any insight into what they have, so it makes it hard to discuss and evaluate their stats objectively.


Someone without a dog in the race is needed to determine which, if any, or these metrics are worth paying attention to.


This is just me speaking for me here, but here's my take.

As other people note, BPro metrics aren't as popular around the Internet as they were, say, 5-6 years ago. A lot of that is because of newer metrics that have supplanted BPro metrics. We want to change that.

The way I see it, there's two things we have to do in order to get to that point:

1) Simply have the best metrics possible.
2) Make it possible for others to independently verify the validity of our metrics.

Maybe I'm hubristic, but I really think we have the ability to do #1. Obviously this requires building on the work of people both in and outside of BP - if something like BaseRuns exists and it's the best tool for the job, there's no reason for me not to use it and to give credit for it. At the same time, the idea is for us to continue to innovate and to actually add something to the conversation.

But that would be a waste of effort if we then can't convince people to use the metrics we produce. And my goal is to get to the point where people like Tom Tango and AROM and Chris Dial feel like the stats we have at Baseball Prospectus are as good or better as what they could calculate themselves.

But we're only going to get to that point if people are able to validate both our results and our methods. And that means being open and honest about what we are doing with the numbers and why.

I think it's an ambitious goal but I don't see the point of having goals that aren't ambitious. And we're up against a lot of competition - and these are good people who I like, admire and respect. They do fantastic work. But I think we can do better, and that's the standard I want to be held to.

And I still plan to be part of the larger conversation, and to be available to be accountable. I still post on Primer. I still post on Tango's blog. If anyone wants to talk to be about baseball metrics - not just BPro's metrics, anyone's metrics - you can still always reach me at:

pontifexexmachina at hotmail dot com

And that's my sales pitch, I guess.
   41. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 06:55 PM (#3427204)
I hate hate hate hate hate threaded comments.

If Primer ever goes that direction, it will be a sad day.


I couldn't agree more. Threaded comments suck. It's not that hard to just read through a thread.

BPro kinda jumped the shark a couple years back, so now they're... re-jumping the shark? Jumping the blue whale? I dunno. I come more for the writing than for the stats, and BPro's writing overall has been declining in quality IMO. I just can't see what's there that's worth paying for.

I continue to fear that BPro is in front of the curve in that the internet as a whole is slowly moving toward an a-la-carte system where you pay individually for pretty much every site you go to except extremely minor ones, on top of what you pay for your net connectivity itself.
   42. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 07:02 PM (#3427215)
Maybe I'm a luddite but I have basically no problem with the comment formatting here. Am I missing something?


This is what I'm used to and like. The format in the forums is cool, too (altohough folks tend to build nested ziggurats of quoted comments there. Convenient for rereading old threads, but a PITA in real time.) The worst I've run across, by far, is on those free Boardhost boards. You have to click-thru to read every damn comment.
   43. CrosbyBird Posted: January 04, 2010 at 07:08 PM (#3427221)
The very first thing I do on any forum with threaded comments is try to change it to flat mode. The second thing I do, if it's impossible to do that, is unsubscribe.

The only downside to this site's format, IMO, is that you can't control the number of posts per page. When I'm using a computer with low resolution or a mobile device, it's a ton of scrolling to read a thread... in fact, my phone can't load a whole page of a busy thread.
   44. Barnaby Jones Posted: January 04, 2010 at 07:09 PM (#3427225)
I'm a bit surprised at the reaction here. It seems like they are specifically addressing many of the annoying features of BP, such as the lack of accessibility and transparency of their stats:

it's come time for us to not only improve our current offering, but to better present what we have...

In 2010, you will see new searchable, sortable player cards with career statistics, all of the BP family of stats, PECOTA projections, and more on a single easy-to-use, easy-to-read page. This is the one encyclopedic tool that many of you have been waiting for... We have a lot of great metrics out there, many which are unfortunately buried within our current public offering...


Other thoughts:

- People were complaining just recently about having "a beat writer like John Perrotto" on-board as one of the errors of their ways, but I think installing a newspaper guy (and imo, a pretty good writer) like him as Editor-In-Chief and pushing Kahrl back to full time analyst makes worlds of sense. The other additions, like Wyers, seem like moves in the right directions.

- Assuming that everything currently free remains, I think Euston actually getting paid for his work will mostly be a good thing. Cot's with outside support (and not too much meddling) seems like it would be beneficial

- I don't remember Joe Sheehan from years past, but his articles in recent years seemed to fall into the category of "screed" more often than not. I think his departure is a plus. I only wish a similar fate had befallen Carroll.
   45. philly Posted: January 04, 2010 at 07:20 PM (#3427234)
The way I see it, there's two things we have to do in order to get to that point:

1) Simply have the best metrics possible.
2) Make it possible for others to independently verify the validity of our metrics.


I'd add a third - be publicly self-critical. I suppose you might think that that's part of #1, but I would disagree.

And perhaps a 4th - don't make old data disappear. I've long wanted to go back and check multiyear PECOTA forcasts and some of Davenport's ml peak translations, but all of that stuff simply disappears once the new year versions go live.

I really hope maintaining access to seemingly "old" and "useless" data that can be used to track long term accuracy is going to be a part of this new statistical overhaul that Eric and others are working on.
   46. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 04, 2010 at 07:21 PM (#3427235)
But we're only going to get to that point if people are able to validate both our results and our methods. And that means being open and honest about what we are doing with the numbers and why.


And if that happens outside the pay wall, so much the better. I hope that is what the commitment means.

-- MWE
   47. danielj Posted: January 04, 2010 at 07:23 PM (#3427238)
Colin,

I'm very encouraged by your post and look forward t your work at BP. Overall, I read Kevin's post as a move toward reestablishing BP as a sabermetric leader and making their methodology more accessible to public scrutiny. The proof is in the pudding, of course, but there's an awful lot of talent there.
   48. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 07:24 PM (#3427240)
(Forget) it. Here is what I e-mailed Don:

Don, I don't know if you know me. The folks at Primer know me as GGC. I always thought that neo-sabe meant a few things. Examples:

1. Rationalism to the exclusion of empiricism.

2. Looking at the numbers without regard to in-game context.

3. An almost Hollywood level worship of youth over experience.

4. A haughty disdain of front office types.

5. Lots of Simpsons references.

IOW, analyzing baseball from the viewpoint of Baseball Prospectus circa 2000. I've been misusung the term for years. My apologies. But I think that I was just finding the scene when you were cutting back on your participation. I wish that you had included a definition of the term in your glossary. Heck, there's an entry for "wafering the pitcher" and I don't think that anyone uses that expression.


Part of his reply:

... #4 is something that was altered early on when the real sea-change took place--at that came when some major league teams got more interested in number crunching than had been the case in the 80s and early 90s...

The one that should be added to supplant #4, I think, is "careerism." Now there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to have a career, but the problem for the field of sabermetrics is sucb an attitude, when taken to its logical outcome, takes us back to a point where vital facts and findings can't help but remain on the other side of the looking glass.

And if you read a blog like the one associated with Tango Tiger, you will see how this has come into play. It's clear that Will Carroll endorses the idea of a "privileged class" of "uber-analysts," while Tango and NGL have one foot in each camp. (Sometimes it's the left foot, and sometines the right...)

Should a lot of money be thrown at sabermetrics? Very probably. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to try out as many ideas as possible, even if some of 'em are poppycock.

Should it be done under the rules of free-market capitalism? Almost certainly not.


The last paragraph is pretty straightforward, but I'm not sure if he's alluding to Elias or not earlier or what exactly he means by a priveliged class. Does he think that Caroll thinks there should be a priesthood of baseball or something like that?
   49. Kurt Posted: January 04, 2010 at 07:35 PM (#3427256)
I find the stuff that Chris at Smart Football and Brian at Advanced NFL Stats do to be more interesting. I've hoped that their Extra Points section would become something like this newsblog, but it never happened. Also, one of their writers sort of rubs me the wrong way. That shouldn't matter and I should be able to overcome petty crap like that, but that doesn't help matters.

I would say the things Backlasher used to think about this site (and may still, for all I know) are actually true of FO. The one thing that works well is the way the comment sections are threaded, bu if you're logged in it highlights comments you haven't read everytime you go back, so it's easy to scroll through and pick out the new comments.
   50. CW hits the pinata for the candy Posted: January 04, 2010 at 07:40 PM (#3427265)
And if that happens outside the pay wall, so much the better. I hope that is what the commitment means.


I'm, so to speak, the guy that gets to carry the pink backpack out to the bullpen, so I'm really not in a position to make a commitment here either way. Obviously some things are always going to be behind the pay wall. Whether or not the stuff behind the pay wall is worth the money is a personal decision.

I think (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this) that in the past BPro has actually been pretty good about keeping the important stuff on the open side of the wall. The full formula for EqA, for instance, is free to read. I know Prospectus has taken heat in the past about "closed" metrics but all of the key ones - VORP (and MLV behind it), EqR/EqA, WARP, etc. - have publicly-available methodologies. Even before I worked for BPro I was able to reproduce VORP and EqA using information they made publically available.

(And PECOTA, for instance, is no more or less "black boxy" than any projection system outside of Marcels that I'm aware of. It's certainly well more open than several other projection systems; the '03 Annual and Baseball Between The Numbers both have pretty detailed writeups of the methodology.)
   51. AROM Posted: January 04, 2010 at 07:47 PM (#3427275)
I can't speak for Don. A lot of what he says goes over my head. But I think by priveleged class he means analysts working for teams, Bloomberg, or a group like BPro that can afford to buy proprietory data, getting to work on things that the amateurs out here never have a chance to see.

Pitch f/x has been available for free for those with the tech skill to get the data. But it may not stay that way, and things like hit f/x or field f/x may never be available on the outside. I hope MLB doesn't go in that direction, but I can't blame them if they do. MLB is spending a lot of money to produce this data.
   52. Repoz Posted: January 04, 2010 at 07:52 PM (#3427283)
I still post on Primer.

They all say that...:")
   53. AROM Posted: January 04, 2010 at 08:08 PM (#3427295)
The one thing that works well is the way the comment sections are threaded, bu if you're logged in it highlights comments you haven't read everytime you go back, so it's easy to scroll through and pick out the new comments.


I also hate threaded comments, and this is why. You can do things like that to help someone tell which are new and which are old, but it's still a lot easier to just know you left off reading #133 and start reading from there. Threaded comments encourage subconversations. The way BTF works means we're all in the same big conversation. I don't think, in a threaded environment, that a post about Lenny Dykstra turns into a health care reform debate. And I want to live in a world where that can happen.
   54. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 04, 2010 at 08:13 PM (#3427308)
Pitch f/x has been available for free for those with the tech skill to get the data. But it may not stay that way, and things like hit f/x or field f/x may never be available on the outside. I hope MLB doesn't go in that direction, but I can't blame them if they do. MLB is spending a lot of money to produce this data.


As long as the people who are currently running MLBAM are there, I think they will make everything readily available. Yes, they realize that their prime constituency is the 30 major league teams, but I think they also realize that the researchers who grab and publicize Pitch F/x, Hit F/x and Field F/x are the best ambassadors for what they have to offer.

-- MWE
   55. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 08:18 PM (#3427316)
I would say the things Backlasher used to think about this site (and may still, for all I know) are actually true of FO.



It's a football site. They're all steroid apologists.
   56. Christopher Linden Posted: January 04, 2010 at 08:20 PM (#3427318)
I'm unfamiliar with the coding details behind BP/Slashdot/BBTF (is it wrong to refer to BBTF as "Primer"? The old habits die hard), but why must threading versus flat or timestamp-based be either/or? I prefer for these threads a chronological order so I can immediately hit only the latest posts, but would it be totally beyond the skill of a coder to use a threaded framework but allow the reader to highlight posts made after a certain time or posted after the reader's last logon?

I don't know if the FO writer who bugs GGC is Mike Kurtz, but I'd like to repeatedly hit him in the soles of his feet with a bamboo cane. Does he like anything? He could get a blowjob and then complain his dick was too wet.

Happy Base Ball.
   57. vivaelpujols Posted: January 04, 2010 at 08:24 PM (#3427324)
Pitch f/x has been available for free for those with the tech skill to get the data. But it may not stay that way, and things like hit f/x or field f/x may never be available on the outside

Say it ain't so Rally :(
   58. Tango Posted: January 04, 2010 at 08:47 PM (#3427354)
Colin: dude, I can't wait for your followup to this article.

***

I'm sure there are tons of Primates pulling for you.

***

And PECOTA, for instance, is no more or less "black boxy" than any projection system outside of Marcels that I'm aware of. It's certainly well more open than several other projection systems


There are two objections that I have:
1 - Not a single person has ever shown any evidence for the PECOTA percentile ranges being accurate. For example, a rookie and a veteran in his late 20s both have similar kind of range expectation, even though the range expectation should be tighter for the guy you have more PA or IP for. Reliever ERAs fluctuate far more than starter ERAs, but you wouldn't think that looking at PECOTAs.

PizzaCutter, Matt, Colin? That's a challenge.

2 - The "deadly accurate" claim on their (soon to be your) book every year is baseless. The way I describe it, standard systems are 81-81, Marcel is like being 82-80, better systems are like an 83-win team, maybe 84. That's as far as it goes. There's no 90-win or 95-win team out there.

Other than these two points, there's no issue with PECOTA. If you hold PECOTA up to be more than that, then that's where the takedowns are coming from. If I'm given MGL, Chone, ZiPS, and PECOTA, I'm pretty much weighting them 25% each. I might go as high as 30% for one of them, but no more.
   59. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 08:52 PM (#3427362)
WRT Football Outsiders, I was also disappointed that they rejected this. It was my dream to have Jason Beattie draw a caricature of me and it has yet to happen.
   60. Tango Posted: January 04, 2010 at 09:01 PM (#3427377)
but why must threading versus flat or timestamp-based be either/or


Fangraphs uses both the threaded (default) and non-threaded.

I think it's right out of the Wordpress box.

In my case, I much prefer the non-threaded for the blogs I follow all the time (I can pick up where I left off), and threaded for those I follow occasionally.
   61. vivaelpujols Posted: January 04, 2010 at 09:03 PM (#3427381)
Colin: dude, I can't wait for your followup to this article.

I'm not sure BPro would be too happy with that ;)
   62. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 10:05 PM (#3427471)
I can't speak for Don. A lot of what he says goes over my head. But I think by priveleged class he means analysts working for teams, Bloomberg, or a group like BPro that can afford to buy proprietory data, getting to work on things that the amateurs out here never have a chance to see.


Gotcha, AROM. Thanks. I guess Pitch F/X is publically available, but I have no clue how to manipulate data like some of the more computer-oriented folks can. Rememeber, I would break Primer from time to time in the past. I suppose I could learn to, but I'm more competent at using a microfilm reader. And those still occasionally come in handy.
   63. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 10:16 PM (#3427481)
I don't know if the FO writer who bugs GGC is Mike Kurtz, but I'd like to repeatedly hit him in the soles of his feet with a bamboo cane. Does he like anything? He could get a blowjob and then complain his dick was too wet.


It's a Steelers fan thing. Steelers fans somehow manage to consistently combine incessant ########-and-moaning AND vehement blind loyalty. Everything is the fault of something other than the Steelers' players and/or coaches not being very good.
   64. AROM Posted: January 04, 2010 at 10:16 PM (#3427482)
If it's any consolation, neither can I. I can work pretty well once I get the data into a database, but I don't know how to get all the gameday files from the site into one. I might be able to learn if I had more time to devote to it. I've got Baseball Hacks, but I understand the perl code in it is outdated for some of this and I don't know enough about perl to make it work.
   65. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 10:17 PM (#3427483)
I don't know if the FO writer who bugs GGC is Mike Kurtz, but I'd like to repeatedly hit him in the soles of his feet with a bamboo cane. Does he like anything? He could get a blowjob and then complain his dick was too wet.


It's a Steelers fan thing. Steelers fans somehow manage to consistently combine incessant ########-and-moaning AND vehement blind loyalty. Everything is the fault of something other than the Steelers' players and/or coaches not being very good.
   66. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 10:29 PM (#3427496)
It's a Steelers fan thing. Steelers fans somehow manage to consistently combine incessant ########-and-moaning AND vehement blind loyalty. Everything is the fault of something other than the Steelers' players and/or coaches not being very good.


Once again, Justin's perception of Pittsburgh-related events and mine don't really line up anywhere.

In my experience, Steelers fans in recent years have complained near-incessantly about the O-line, which would seem to be pretty well-deserved.
   67. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 10:52 PM (#3427515)
IIRC, Zeth is part of the Diaspora, so he may not have the same experience as a Steel City resident.
   68. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 11:01 PM (#3427528)
Your circle of acquaintances and mine may be rather dramatically different. Almost everyone I know is a very casual fan, the type that gets quickly irritated if I point out that Jerome Bettis' yards-per-carry was always mediocre and rarely compared well to other running backs on the team.

I've heard a lot of complaining about the o-line, too, but hell, it's one of the worst o-lines ever put on the field.

What I've heard more than ever this year is whining about the referees are out to get the Steelers. The referees HAVE been rougher on the Steelers this year than in the past... but IMO it's because for years past they've been very kind to them. For whatever reason, they stopped being kind to them now. The Steelers' o-line holds a lot because no one on it can block anybody.

Anyway, this was originally about Mike Kurtz, whose constant complaining seems in line with most of the Steelers fans I know. The Steelers haven't lost 11 games in a season for almost 40 years; 9-7 feels like a failure, I guess. There's a lot of whining about referees and injuries and just general unluckiness, and yeah, the Steelers HAVE been unlucky this year... but they were lucky as hell last year (especially with injuries), as almost all NFL champions are.
   69. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 11:04 PM (#3427537)
Your circle of acquaintances and mine may be rather dramatically different.


Possibly so. Most of the ones I know are talking right now about who to target in the draft, or issuing rueful remarks about what might have been this season if they hadn't blown so many winnable games in the 4th, or had done better against a slate of mostly bad teams.
   70. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: January 04, 2010 at 11:13 PM (#3427548)
Most of the ones I know think it's not fair that the Steelers lose the tiebreaker to the Ravens and believe the sole reason the Steelers went 9-7 instead of 13-3 is because Polamalu missed most of the season. (Polamalu is good, but his absence is far from the defense's only problem: Hampton and Farrior are cooked, the corners after Taylor are Chad Scott-level terrible, Timmons is still a liability against the run, etc.)

Put it this way: The Steelers MIGHT be able to survive trading Ben Roethlisberger for draft picks, if they turned the defense around quickly. But if word even leaked out they were thinking about trading Polamalu, half of Pittsburgh would burn to the ground, if the people I know are any indication.

Me, you know what kind of guy I am. The main thing I complain about is that they didn't tank their last three games. Beating three good teams to close the season looks good on Mike Tomlin's resume, but it just means they're going to pick 20th instead of 10th, which won't make the radical reconstruction of the o-line and defense any easier. At least we can hope they'll stop wasting high picks on RBs and WRs.
   71. vivaelpujols Posted: January 04, 2010 at 11:13 PM (#3427549)
I can work pretty well once I get the data into a database, but I don't know how to get all the gameday files from the site into one. I might be able to learn if I had more time to devote to it. I've got Baseball Hacks, but I understand the perl code in it is outdated for some of this and I don't know enough about perl to make it work.


Rally, you should check out a post I made on BtB.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/8/19/994666/saberizing-a-mac-4-pitch-f-x

Mike provided update Perl Scripts and the spider codes in the comments, as well as helping us trouble shoot errors we got. Or, if you want to take the shortcut, there is an SQL dump that you could import with all the data from 07-09.

http://www.wantlinux.net/2009/10/pitch-fx-data-with-pitch-type/
   72. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 05, 2010 at 12:06 AM (#3427606)
Losing Polamalu may not have been THE killer, but it sure didn't help. He would've gone a long way toward camouflaging the shortcomings of the corners. And like always, the impact of the loss of Aaron Smith is understated, though at this point it really shouldn't come as a surprise anymore.

You are correct about Hampton and Farrior, of course.

I think that playing to win was the right call, insofar as they were still mathematically alive (and didn't actually fall all that short of the postseason). As the '05/'06 team shows, anything can happen once you earn a spot in that bracket.
   73. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: January 05, 2010 at 01:50 AM (#3427696)
Aaron Smith was always the unnoticed superstar of the Steelers' defense. The man just disrupted the hell out of the opposing o-line. IMO he was always at least as important to the scheme as Polamalu was. Losing them both just cratered the defense (the aforementioned other factors didn't help either, of course.)

The Steelers really need to find that disruptive strong-side end, but it's probably going to be put on hold while they find a nose tackle. It's unlikely Ziggy Hood is that guy.

For my money the 2005 d-line (von Oelhoffen/Hampton/Smith) was the best d-line the Steelers have put out since the Steel Curtain days. That's exactly the template to model: Extreme-motor guy that disrupts the strong side (Smith), Death Star in the middle (Hampton), excellent run stuffer/space clogger on the weak side to give blitzers a chance to attack (von Oelhoffen).

Oh, and we also need to pray to the god/gods of our choosing that some rich team doesn't realize Heath Miller is the best tight end in the NFL and offer him a ridiculous contract the Steelers can't/won't match.
   74. Athletic Supporter leads the nation in drifters Posted: January 05, 2010 at 02:18 AM (#3427727)
Maybe it's just me, but in the NFL I don't think there is that much of a difference between picking 10th and 20th. Partly this is a function of teams drafting for need frequently, partly this is a function of there being less consensus on the top players in a draft beyond the first few, partly this is a function of the fact that the translation from college to pro is enormous (in terms of schemes, level of week-in week-out competition, etc.) By virtue of being a contact sport, football even at the skill positions is based more on strength (being able to endure hits) than any other sport, and both physical age-based maturation and the increased training of being a professional just change the game a lot.
   75. JoeHova Posted: January 05, 2010 at 02:30 AM (#3427737)
...Heath Miller is the best tight end in the NFL...

Not according to this. They have him 30th best this year and 34th in 2008. However, they did have him at #1 in 2007, their first year of data. According to the 3 year sample, Miller is a good receiver and an OK pass blocker but his run blocking has declined from great to poor.
   76. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: January 05, 2010 at 02:36 AM (#3427742)
I would suggest the hideousness of the blockers next to him is leaking over into that stat.

Miller is an excellent receiver and an OK blocker. I don't know how one projection system or another weights those various things, but in the modern NFL, (IMO anyway) that is exactly the kind of tight end you want to have.

Anyway, when I go through rewatching all their games this year, I'll keep an eye on Miller's run blocking. Food for thought.

30th best is preposterous, though. I'm willing to allow for maybe I'm overrating him, but a system that says Heath Miller is a bad/near replacement level tight end (which a 30th rating suggests, as there are 32 teams) is a system that fails at evaluating tight ends. 10th or 12th or so would be about as low as I could see a person or system reasonably going.

But anyway, as a Steelers fan I sincerely hope the rest of the NFL agrees with PFR's analysis of him.
   77. puck Posted: January 05, 2010 at 02:44 AM (#3427750)

If you like football, I recommend Smart Football and Advanced NFL Stats.


Did they ever write anything on Shane Lechler, or what a good punter is worth? If a guy can average 50 yards a punt but could alter his angle to average 40 yards but with so much hangtime there'd never be a return, is that a fair tradeoff? That sort of thing...
   78. Howie Menckel Posted: January 05, 2010 at 02:49 AM (#3427754)
I don't care about the Steelers, but:
- Winning the Super Bowl just last year in miraculous fashion and claiming the SB titles lead, AND

- losing so many games against NFL bottom feeders this year...

... makes it amazing to me that any of their fans could complain about wild-card tiebreakers or how long Peyton Manning played against the Jets or whatever.

Last year's Brady-less Patriots going 11-5 and missing the playoffs - that's brutal.

2009's 9-7 Steelers, not so much.

Do fans in Pittsburgh complain about Yankees' fans sense of entitlement?
lol
   79. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: January 05, 2010 at 02:54 AM (#3427759)
That's just the thing I'm always telling the complainers, Howie. All they had to do to make the playoffs was beat the fraking Browns. Or Raiders. Or Chiefs.
   80. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: January 05, 2010 at 02:59 AM (#3427763)
Did they ever write anything on Shane Lechler, or what a good punter is worth? If a guy can average 50 yards a punt but could alter his angle to average 40 yards but with so much hangtime there'd never be a return, is that a fair tradeoff? That sort of thing...


Shane Lechler probably won two games for the Raiders by himself. That was the greatest season in the history of punting, by far.
   81. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 05, 2010 at 04:19 AM (#3427834)
Did they ever write anything on Shane Lechler, or what a good punter is worth? If a guy can average 50 yards a punt but could alter his angle to average 40 yards but with so much hangtime there'd never be a return, is that a fair tradeoff? That sort of thing...


I believe Burke did today or yesterday at Advanced NFL Stats.
   82. bostonu yankees fan Posted: January 06, 2010 at 12:14 AM (#3428966)
The "State of the Prospectus" was interesting, but doesn't answer my long-term questions (nor did I expect it to). I'm ok with Perrotto as the new EIC, but I continue to have serious doubts about Goldstein's role. As someone said in this thread, he's portrayed himself as anti-advanced stats, and I still think it's odd that he's posted at least a couple of Twitter updates where he complained about subscriber/commenter feedback to his articles. That struck me the wrong way, too similar to the Will Carroll "I'm the expert so don't question me" attitude.

It's not like I'm going to suddenly cancel my subscription, but when something big happens in baseball, I find myself going to ESPN for Neyer and Law's recations before BP. BP would have been the first place I visited a couple of years ago.
   83. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: January 06, 2010 at 12:18 AM (#3428979)
It's not like I'm going to suddenly cancel my subscription, but when something big happens in baseball, I find myself going to ESPN for Neyer and Law's recations before BP. BP would have been the first place I visited a couple of years ago.


The first place I go is here.
   84. StillFlash Posted: January 06, 2010 at 07:55 AM (#3429347)
I don't see Steelers fans balming anybody except the team. I agree the injuries hurt, and Aaron Smith is overlooked. But the 4th quarter defensive meltdowns started in last year's post-season with Baltimore and Arizona. Ben is great enough to come back in a majority, but it's best to get the lead and put the other team away. Didn't Cowher only lose 1 game in his last 6 or 7 years after leading at the half? Tomlin lost 5 this year. Maybe it was Lebeau's defensive play calling (blasphemy!).

Lose to the three worst teams in the league (KC, Oak & Cle), on the verge of elimination, then ironically have to route for all three of those same teams to win on the final Sunday to put them into the playoffs - and only Oakland failed to achieve.

Football Outsiders lists Heath Miller 12th in total contribution as a receiver, 8th per ball thrown his way in 2009, 12th & 8th in in 2008, 4th & 1st! in 2007. However, FC at steelerfury.com regularly criticizes his run blocking. Apparently inconsistent, but not as bad as Spaeth.

An honest assesment
http://www.steelerfury.com/content/final-report-card
   85. StillFlash Posted: January 06, 2010 at 08:01 AM (#3429350)
and I don't know how many years it has been since the Steelers played a 'meaningless' game (regular season game after being eliminated from playoff contention).
   86. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 06, 2010 at 08:13 AM (#3429353)
The Steelers haven't lost 11 games in a season for almost 40 years


Not quite. They went 5-11 in 1988, though that was the only year since 1969 they lost that many.

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