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Wednesday, April 25, 2012

BPro: Parks: Does Darvish Throw a Shuuto?

Dunno…but it certainly was Interlocking-up NYU.

As I was watching the Yu Darvish start against the Yankees, it dawned on me that the Japanese hurler might have more pitches than I was originally led to believe. Those who read this site are aware that I’ve been watching Darvish since his first intra-squad game back in early March, which makes me a Darvish hipster, and an unapologetic one at that. Because of my familiarity with the pitcher, I’ve been able to identify his deep arsenal, one that features both a two- and four-seam fastball, a cutter, two type of curveballs, a slider, a splitter, and a straight-change, but up until tonight’s game against the Yankees, I hadn’t noticed that he was throwing what I’ve seen described as a shutto, or a reverse slider.

...I was confused until the seventh inning, when catcher Mike Napoli appeared to be using a different sign for the pitch than the standard fastball, placing an L between his legs when he wanted the pitch with the extreme arm-side run. The announcers referred to the offering as a two-seamer, but as I stated, the movement was way more extreme, as was evident by the catcher’s pre-pitch setup and anticipation of the pitch (he expected run). The best example can be seen in the sixth and final pitch of Darvish’s seventh-inning matchup against Raul Ibanez, as the standard fastball morphs into a reverse slider that runs away from the hitter like the hitter has cooties.

I wanted to assume that it was just a four-seamer that had late arm-side explosion, because Darvish’s four-seamer has serious movement, but this pitch freaked out and ran away like nothing I have ever seen before. I’m not overly familiar with PITCHf/x, which is to say I’m aware of its existence and I respect those that have a mastery of such data, but I’m not fluent in its language. That said, I’d love to see a breakdown of Darvish’s pitch movements to see if my eye was just playing tricks on me or if he was manipulating this particular ball for effect, as was suggested by the sign from the catcher and the outcome of the offering.

Repoz Posted: April 25, 2012 at 05:59 AM | 20 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: rangers, sabermetrics, yankees

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   1. zack Posted: April 25, 2012 at 09:20 AM (#4115554)
The YES feed made a big deal about the hand signal, so I thought the same thing, jokingly. It was hard to see movement on the center field camera, but I'm pretty sure I noticed him throw two fastballs with his palm to the right of the ball, instead of behind/below it. I was delirously tired at the time, though.
   2. TVerik Posted: April 25, 2012 at 09:24 AM (#4115556)
The Yankee hitters, particularly late in the game, looked incredibly fooled when they made contact, with the expected results.
   3. Dangerous Dean Posted: April 25, 2012 at 09:50 AM (#4115579)
We love Yu here in Texas. I think he has about a bajillion plus or better pitches.
   4. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 25, 2012 at 10:38 AM (#4115630)
Shuuto, no, Shutout yes.

I'm guessing the Japanese media loved yesterday's Yu vs. Kuroda duel!
   5. Kyle S at work Posted: April 25, 2012 at 10:42 AM (#4115635)
What is the difference between a Shuuto and a splitter? I thought they were pretty similar. That tailing fastball he used for a strikeout (forget who, maybe Jeter?) was nasty.
   6. aleskel Posted: April 25, 2012 at 10:44 AM (#4115638)
the pitch he mentions (the strikeout pitch to Ibanez) was at 94 MPH. When I hear "reverse slider" that sounds like a screwball - Darvish's pitch looks like a fastball with a ton of movement, but I would have to see the grip.
   7. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: April 25, 2012 at 10:48 AM (#4115645)
Watching the pitch in question it looked similar to a pitch Daniel Bard threw to Nick Swisher a couple of years ago. That pitch was 99 and was just obscene in its movement (Brooks says it broke 14 inches horizontally). I've watched a lot of Bard since and I don't recall him ever throwing a pitch that moved like that again.

Maybe Darvish is throwing some sort of reverse slider but my guess it is just a fastball that had a lot of movement.
   8. CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo Posted: April 25, 2012 at 10:49 AM (#4115646)
I only had the game on in the background, so maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention, but did last night's ump have a rather inconsistent strike zone? In particular, I'm thinking of Granderson getting K'd on a curveball (?) that looked to be four-or-five inches off the plate. Swisher, too, appeared to be miffed by a few calls. Come to think of it, it seems like Darvish's curve was giving the ump some problems, particularly when he threw them low in the zone -- the catcher would frame it right around the high ankles, meaning that when the pitch crossed the plate, it was (possibly) at the knees.
   9. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 25, 2012 at 10:52 AM (#4115649)
The umps have been absolutely terrible in the games I've seen this year.
   10. Squash Posted: April 25, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4115696)
The umps have been absolutely terrible in the games I've seen this year.

I agree. It looks like it's going to be a clown shoes year.

There's no such thing as a shuuto - at least not as a categorically different pitch. There are only so many ways the human hand can move or turn. Darvish is throwing a two seam fastball - he has a lot of movement, maybe he loads his fingers to one side of the ball. An actual reverse slider would be a screwball, though those pitches look more like huge sinking changeups with some armside run than sliders. That Bard pitch mentioned above is pretty sick (that is one serious moving fastball), although I have never seen any with more movement on their fastball than Kevin Brown. During his true glory years with Florida it was insane how much his pitches moved. If Kevin Brown was Japanese we would be talking about how he threw a Shuuto.
   11. Squash Posted: April 25, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4115705)
And speaking of which, you've got to love MLB.com with their completely arcane choices of which highlights to post, and complete refusal to put together game-highlights synopsis videos. Great website but a completely backwards policy when it comes to media. Note to MLB: it's much, much better for you when people are watching your product, no matter which game or on whichever delivery device, even if they're doing it *gasp!* for free. MLB reminds me of the music industry in the early Napster days when rather than try to work with the new technology and use it to their benefit, they're desperately trying hold back time and pretend it's still 10 years ago.
   12. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 25, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4115708)
What do you mean squash, you can watch the condensed game that has every at bat, right? Plus they have a clip called "Davrish's dominant start" or something that has most of the good moments, and all the strikeouts. If I want a synopsis video I'll watch Baseball Tonight, but that seems to be the regressive choice, not MLB's packages....
   13. Squash Posted: April 25, 2012 at 12:08 PM (#4115719)
What do you mean squash, you can watch the condensed game that has every at bat, right? Plus they have a clip called "Davrish's dominant start" or something that has most of the good moments, and all the strikeouts. If I want a synopsis video I'll watch Baseball Tonight, but that seems to be the regressive choice, not MLB's packages....


I clicked on the website and tried to see the Dominant Start thing, but all it took me to was a one-pitch clip of him getting a ground ball. And even that broken or incorrect link (though I just clicked it again, and this time it indeed worked) wasn't a direct link, I had to click on the one-highlight link in the article. Why not just link to the primary highlight in the article rather than the completely out of context one-highlight link? It doesn't make any sense.
   14. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: April 25, 2012 at 12:09 PM (#4115721)
Any self respecting hipster would be well aware of the Japanese releases preceding the American ones.
   15. Der_K Posted: April 25, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4115723)
Those who read this site are aware that I’ve been watching Darvish since his first intra-squad game back in early March, which makes me a Darvish hipster, and an unapologetic one at that.

Am I missing something ironic in this statement? (I only read the excerpt)
"I've been watching this guy who became famous almost a decade ago and recently signed a deal where his team committed $108M over 6 years for his services since March. Early March."
   16. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: April 25, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4115730)
you can watch the condensed game that has every at bat, right?

Condensed games haven't worked that way in a couple years, as some random jagoff patented the idea and MLB refuses to license it. Instead of tweaking the format in a way that would still allow them to show whole games, they show only batters who reach, strikeouts and notable defensive plays. Except in the case of a no-hitter, for which they'll show every out, giving away what happened before you're able to watch it unfold.

It's infuriating to see a leadoff triple followed by what you believe to be a sacrifice fly, only to learn that it was the third out. Things are unwatchable now.
   17. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: April 25, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4115734)
I clicked on the website and tried to see the Dominant Start thing, but all it took me to was a one-pitch clip of him getting a ground ball. And even that broken or incorrect link (though I just clicked it again, and this time it indeed worked) wasn't a direct link, I had to click on the one-highlight link in the article. Why not just link to the primary highlight in the article rather than the completely out of context one-highlight link? It doesn't make any sense.


Squash I don't know what you are seeing. When I go to the MLB.com scoreboard for yesterday (since it's updated to show today's game on the main page now) the featured video in the scoreboard is the "Darvish's Stellar Start." Even if that wasn't there a click to the "Wrap" gives me a "Video" option that has all manner of highlights including the "stellar start." At worst it's 4 clicks from the time I get to MLB.com;

Scoreboard -> Wrap -> Videos -> "Stellar start"

And of course if you have the MLB AtBat app on your smart phone or tablet it's similarly as easy there.

On the Texas Rangers home page the "stellar start" video is the one that auto-loads in the right hand side.

   18. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: April 25, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4115735)
Condensed games haven't worked that way in a couple years, as some random jagoff patented the idea and MLB refuses to license it. Instead of tweaking the format in a way that would still allow them to show whole games, they show only batters who reach, strikeouts and notable defensive plays. Except in the case of a no-hitter, for which they'll show every out, giving away what happened before you're able to watch it unfold.


That's why it's like that? Man that's stupid, seems like there would be a way for MLB to get around that. I still like the condensed game though.
   19. Blubaldo Jimenez (OMJ) Posted: April 25, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4115737)
There's no such thing as a shuuto - at least not as a categorically different pitch. There are only so many ways the human hand can move or turn. Darvish is throwing a two seam fastball - he has a lot of movement, maybe he loads his fingers to one side of the ball. An actual reverse slider would be a screwball, though those pitches look more like huge sinking changeups with some armside run than sliders. That Bard pitch mentioned above is pretty sick (that is one serious moving fastball), although I have never seen any with more movement on their fastball than Kevin Brown. During his true glory years with Florida it was insane how much his pitches moved. If Kevin Brown was Japanese we would be talking about how he threw a Shuuto.


I remember seeing an illustration of the Shuuto, the theory was that the grip/spin combination makes the seams spin in a way that it resembles another pitch (slider?) but the actual spin of the ball is different, so the brain gets confused. Same theory as there is no such thing as a rising fastball, it just falls less than your brain expects it to. You see the pattern of the seams, and think slider, but it moves a bit differently, which makes your brain think "woah huge movement".

Its the least crazy of any of the theories I have seen. Bob Wickman used to accidentally throw a "backup slider" on occasion.
   20. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 25, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4115785)
Yeah, Squash, you seem to be having a grandma w/ internet moment.

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