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Thursday, October 12, 2017

Bradford: The real reason Dave Dombrowski fired John Farrell | WEEI

It’s not complicated. John Farrell wasn’t Dave Dombrowski’s guy, and only one of them was leaving town.

The Red Sox president of baseball operations fired his manager Wednesday morning, offering meager crumbs of explanation during a morning press conference. But talking to players who witnessed the dynamic between the two over the course of the last seven months, it became pretty clear how we got here.

Players believed Dombrowski and Farrell didn’t get along. Whether their disagreements were worse than those between other president/GMs and managers, the clubhouse perception was that the head-butting had reached advanced levels. Once players form such a narrative among themselves, it becomes a problem. And it was.

Jim Furtado Posted: October 12, 2017 at 09:21 AM | 43 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dave dombrowski, john farrell, red sox

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   1. eddieot Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:16 AM (#5551010)
And after reading TFA I still don't know why he was fired.
   2. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:37 AM (#5551035)
Because the clubhouse didn't "feel" like the clubhouse of a first place team.
   3. wjones Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:37 AM (#5551036)
And after reading TFA I still don't know why he was fired.

He had the nerve to be the first manager to win two division titles in a row. Made the previous managers all look bad in comparison.

   4. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:48 AM (#5551045)
You're not my guy, buddy.
   5. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:49 AM (#5551047)
Because he wasn't hired by Dombrowski. Happens all the time when new GM's are brought in.
   6. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:51 AM (#5551050)
Because he wasn't hired by Dombrowski. Happens all the time when new GM's are brought in.

In my experience, executives who can't work with anybody except "their guys" are trainwrecks. Every one I've seen who replaces everyone with their old cronies doesn't last long, or end well.
   7. Batman Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:04 AM (#5551074)
"Meager crumbs of explanation" is my favorite Doors lyric.
   8. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:11 AM (#5551089)
If Dombrowski replaces Farrell with Ausmus, he will have officially not only jumped the shark, but pole vaulted in a rocket vest over the shark.
   9. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:17 AM (#5551101)
Last April or May, I happened to be running and listened to Ausmus's fluff pregame interview with Jim Price, the Tigers' radio color man -- who actually played in the big leagues for the 1968 champions. In lieu of the standard cliches, Ausmus literally didn't let a single question go by without correcting what he thought were Price's statements or premises. It was the quintessential example of arrogance because I can't help but be arrogant.(*)

If things go even remotely south, the Boston media will leave him a whimpering, simpering bloody carcass no later than a month after the all-star break of Year 1.

(*) And of course he had exactly nothing to be arrogant about, since he was a disaster at virtually every phase of managing.
   10. Textbook Editor Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:56 AM (#5551162)
GD, Ausmus is going to be the guy isn't he?

I suppose you could argue if a guy like Bob Brenly won a WS title... then idiots sometimes do prosper as managers, but it seems a poor bet to place all your money on that possible outcome, instead of hedging your bet with, say, competence.

   11. Ken Griffey Junior Bacon Cheeseburger Posted: October 12, 2017 at 12:19 PM (#5551195)
I suppose you could argue if a guy like Bob Brenly won a WS title... then idiots sometimes do prosper as managers, but it seems a poor bet to place all your money on that possible outcome, instead of hedging your bet with, say, competence.


Having an inner circle HOFer and a should-be HOFer fronting your rotation is also a good way to cover for an idiot manager.
   12. Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine Posted: October 12, 2017 at 01:06 PM (#5551247)
Ausmus is going to be the guy isn't he?


We'll see but I'd be shocked. The Ausmus stories have more than a little whiff of lazy journalism to them. "Hey, Dombrowski hired Ausmus before and now Ausmus is available and Dombrowski has an opening!" Maybe that's the path they take but it would surprise me. I'm of the belief that it's going to be Cora for no particular reason.
   13. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 12, 2017 at 01:31 PM (#5551286)
The stakes are pretty high for Dombrowski here. Firing Farrell after back-to-back Division-winning seasons puts the spotlight squarely on the GM. If his new hire does worse than Farrell, Dombrowski might not be the one selecting the next replacement manager.
   14. jmurph Posted: October 12, 2017 at 01:37 PM (#5551291)
If in 2-3 years the Red Sox are in a place where they're firing their manager due to team performance, Dombrowski would likely be gone anyway. I'm not sure anything has changed on that front.
   15. SoSH U at work Posted: October 12, 2017 at 01:41 PM (#5551296)
I suppose you could argue if a guy like Bob Brenly won a WS title... then idiots sometimes do prosper as managers, but it seems a poor bet to place all your money on that possible outcome, instead of hedging your bet with, say, competence.


Was Brenly a persistent idiot, or was he an ordinary skipper who just happened to have a horrible stretch of decision making that somehow resulted in a World Series title? I don't recall anything specific about his managerial acumen either leading up to or after that bizarre fortnight, but man did he make a lifetime's worth of awful choices that somehow still couldn't sink the Diamondbacks.

   16. Textbook Editor Posted: October 12, 2017 at 01:53 PM (#5551311)
SoSH U--My memory is mainly that the Diamondbacks should have won 6 of the 7 WS games, and somehow contrived to win only 4 (and just barely 4), largely through idiotic bullpen usage decisions that were head-slappingly dumb *as they were taking place*. I don't honestly recall when Brenly ultimately was fired, but... if ever a WS-winning manager was going to be fired, it should have been Brenly after the 2001 WS.

To be sure, BTW... I think Grady Little was likely a bigger moron. One reason to fear the likes of Farrell & Francona being fired is the memory of the sheer, staggering incompetence of Grady Little. Now... I'm not sure a Grady Little type gets hired anymore in MLB (was Charlie Manual be the last vestige of that type of manager?)... so maybe this is a fear I shouldn't have, but if you lived through the decision making of Grady Little in real time (as many of us here did), you have some semblance of baseball PTSD regarding daft managers who manage on "feel.".
   17. Hot Wheeling American Posted: October 12, 2017 at 01:53 PM (#5551312)
Dombrowski might not be the one selecting the next replacement manager.


Or he might!! Who knows??
   18. Brian White Posted: October 12, 2017 at 01:54 PM (#5551313)
Was Brenly a persistent idiot, or was he an ordinary skipper who just happened to have a horrible stretch of decision making that somehow resulted in a World Series title?


There was a lot of mega-outrage in the stathead community because of his refusal to make Erubiel Durazo a regular, but beyond that I don't really remember anything egregious about Brenly's managing outside of the 2001 World Series.
   19. No longer interested in this website Posted: October 12, 2017 at 01:55 PM (#5551316)
I think it's because the two men are so dissimilar. Dombrowski is a very measured, polished, professional man. He's loyal to his bosses and he's extremely well prepared. Farrell is crusty and crass, he's foul-mouthed and (reportedly) has had some interesting off-the-field activities. I have nothing to base this on, but I bet Farrell has offended Dombrowski over the last few years, and that as his boss, DD has had to reprimand him. It may even be that Trader Dave saw things during the course of his many road trips with the team that he did not like from his manager, such as being unprofessional.
   20. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: October 12, 2017 at 01:57 PM (#5551319)
If in 2-3 years the Red Sox are in a place where they're firing their manager due to team performance, Dombrowski would likely be gone anyway. I'm not sure anything has changed on that front.


This is a key point. Fair or not, the firing of Farrell is a statement from the organization that anything short of deep playoff runs is not good enough, over the long run. If the next manager doesn't get to the World Series at least once in the next two to three years, Dombrowski is going to be gone, anyway.

When you trade Moncada and Kopech for three years of Chris Sale, you are pretty much saying you are going all in for 2017-2019. When you trade four prospects for Craig Kimbral, you are saying you are all in. Travis Shaw for a set-up guy? David Price for $30m/yr? You are in it to win it...so you better win it.
   21. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 12, 2017 at 02:01 PM (#5551325)
They DID win it.

They won their division. That's the only reasonable goal. The playoffs are random.
   22. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: October 12, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5551414)
Fair or not, the firing of Farrell is a statement from the organization that anything short of deep playoff runs is not good enough, over the long run.


Dombrowski said that Farrell was going to get fired regardless of the playoff results so I don't think that is accurate.
   23. SoSH U at work Posted: October 12, 2017 at 03:31 PM (#5551436)
SoSH U--My memory is mainly that the Diamondbacks should have won 6 of the 7 WS games, and somehow contrived to win only 4 (and just barely 4), largely through idiotic bullpen usage decisions that were head-slappingly dumb *as they were taking place*. I don't honestly recall when Brenly ultimately was fired, but... if ever a WS-winning manager was going to be fired, it should have been Brenly after the 2001 WS.

Your memory is correct. Brenly was legitimately awful in the 2001 World Series (for the record, he managed the Diamondbacks to 86 wins the following season).

But that was two weeks of his life. I think the other 500 games he managed are really more indicative of his overall capabilities as a manager than two weeks of boneheaded decisions in October/November. Which is why I asked the question.

Joe Girardi didn't exactly have the best of Division Series. But he's also spent the last two seasons guiding the Yankees to some serious levels of overachievement. The latter is far more important, as far as I'm concerned.


   24. Rally Posted: October 12, 2017 at 03:31 PM (#5551437)
SoSH U--My memory is mainly that the Diamondbacks should have won 6 of the 7 WS games, and somehow contrived to win only 4 (and just barely 4), largely through idiotic bullpen usage decisions that were head-slappingly dumb *as they were taking place*. I don't honestly recall when Brenly ultimately was fired, but... if ever a WS-winning manager was going to be fired, it should have been Brenly after the 2001 WS.


The bullpen decisions were:

Game 4
1. Removing Curt Schilling after 7 innings with a 2 run lead
2. He went with Byung-hyun Kim for 2 planned innings. Kim struck out the side in the 8th. In the 9th he gave up a 2 out, game tying homer. He stuck with Kim for the 10th, Jeter (Mr. November) homered to end it shortly after midnight. Final pitch count: 61

Game 5
1. Another 2 run lead, going to 9th. He went back to Kim despite zero rest and that many pitches thrown. Another 2 out, 2 run homer. This time he relieves Kim, and they lose in the 12th.

If Kim had been Mariano Rivera, series over in 5. If Rivera had been Rivera in game 7, Yankees win.

Trying to judge the magnitude of Brenly's sins, worst to not as bad:
1. Pitching Kim game 5 after using him so far in game 4.
2. Pulling Schilling so early. He's probably thinking of using Curt in game 7, however if he let Curt finish the game there probably is no game 7.
3. Pushing Kim into extra innings and piling up a huge pitch count.

The world was different then. Now everybody has multiple relievers throwing 98 and striking out 12 per 9 innings so there is little objection to pulling a starter in the 4th inning even if he hasn't given up a ton of runs. That year Kim was the only halfway decent pitcher in the bullpen. Plus you had two starters who whiffed batters like a 2017 relief ace and were totally comfortable with the idea that a full day's work was 9 innings.
   25. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: October 12, 2017 at 03:44 PM (#5551455)
What Wahoo said.

In my experience, executives who can't work with anybody except "their guys" are trainwrecks. Every one I've seen who replaces everyone with their old cronies doesn't last long, or end well.

Baseball isn't just any business. The Dodgers let Mattingly go despite three straight divisions, and rightly so.
   26. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: October 12, 2017 at 03:55 PM (#5551466)
FWIW, the Yankees underperformed their pythag by nine games. I don't care much for Girardi, he definitely lost some games through rigid managing of lineups and the 'pen, and I'm not sure he's the right guy for these pups.

But my god, you could do so much worse.

As long as he learned his lesson from the Game 2 fiasco, I'm not showing him the door.
   27. SoSH U at work Posted: October 12, 2017 at 04:02 PM (#5551470)

The bullpen decisions were:


That doesn't begin to cover it.

Before the series started, Brenly was already considering going with Schilling for three starts. In Game 1, the Diamondbacks led 9-0 after four innings. He let Schilling throw seven.

In Game 3, he chose his fourth-best starter, Brian Anderson, over his third-best starter, Miguel Batista, because of the short-porch in Yankee Stadium. Keep in mind, the short porch would still be there during Game 5, which is the one Batista started. Had he not done this, he could have had a fully-rested Batista available in the pen in Game 7 in Arizona if needed (Batista had a much better year than Anderson in 01).

In Game 4, in three separate innings his leadoff hitter, Tony Womack, reached with nobody out against Orlando Hernandez, a guy who didn't pitch well in 2004. Three straight times he gave El Duque an out with a sac bunt by his No. 2 hitter, and all three times Womack was stranded.

In Game 6, needing two games to win the whole thing, the Diamondbacks staked Randy Johnson to a nifty 15-0 lead after four frames, a margin never once blown in the history of MLB*. He left Big Uni in to complete seven innings, even though he was willing to bring him back the next night in relief.

* Oddly enough, the largest lead ever blown was done during the 2001 regular season, a 14-run bulge squandered by 116-game winner Seattle in a loss to Cleveland.
   28. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 04:11 PM (#5551487)

Baseball isn't just any business. The Dodgers let Mattingly go despite three straight divisions, and rightly so.


My issue is not aabout letting Farrell go. It's about his replacment having to be "one of Dombrowski's guys". If an executive can only work with a tiny circle of his buddies, he's usually not much of a leader.

If Dombrowski goes out and hires Ausmus because he's "his guy", that's a major black mark against him.
   29. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 04:14 PM (#5551491)
They DID win it.

They won their division. That's the only reasonable goal. The playoffs are random.


Exactly. My goal for the Yankees is reach the real playoffs every year, i.e the ALDS. Beyond that, it's gravy.

I would never take the stance that if they go all in to win a WS this year, I'm OK with 5 years of missing the playoffs. Winning a WS is essentially luck. And quite frankly, the day after I'm already thinking about next year's team.
   30. Rally Posted: October 12, 2017 at 04:24 PM (#5551503)
He left Big Uni in to complete seven innings, even though he was willing to bring him back the next night in relief.


In fairness, that was Randy Johnson. He could have completed game 6 and gone on to pitch 5-6 more if seven went into extra innings.
   31. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 12, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5551515)
If an executive can only work with a tiny circle of his buddies, he's usually not much of a leader. If Dombrowski goes out and hires Ausmus because he's "his guy", that's a major black mark against him.

Saw an article in the Globe, IIRC, that said Dombrowski almost always travels with the team, and is usually in the clubhouse before and after games. That constant presence seems likely to undermine a first-level supervisor in almost any work environment, and probably more so in MLB where the clubhouse is viewed as something of a sanctuary for uniformed personnel. Most GMs do it differently, at least from what I've read.

re: #26, I have a somewhat higher opinion of Girardi, but would agree that trying to replace a good but not great manager is more likely to backfire than succeed. Had Dombrowski waited, he could have fired Farrell in 2018 or 2019, if things didn't go well. I suppose that's actually a plus for Dombrowski if he sincerely thought Farrell was hurting the team, but folks will expect his hire to do better.

   32. Walt Davis Posted: October 12, 2017 at 04:43 PM (#5551523)
Just to pile on ... the G4 and bunting Womack over stuff ... Womack might be the fastest guy to ever play. For his career, he successfully stole about 5 out of every 6 attempts. It's true that by 2001, he wasn't stealing a lot -- probably a bit age, a bit sillyball -- but had still stolen 28 of 35 that year. The Yankee C was Posada who caught 28% of runners (career and 2001). I suspect that El Duque was better at holding runners than most RHP but that's still a situation where, if you want Womack on 2B, you just give him the green light.

Their #2 hitter that game was Craig Counsell who was not much of a hitter but his main skill was always his OBP -- 359 that season, 342 career.
   33. Howie Menckel Posted: October 12, 2017 at 05:09 PM (#5551559)
at least last year we had Maddon and Francona playing "can you top this?" with stupid pitching choices that were ridiculed as they happened. sometimes I thought one of them would get lucky and it would turn out ok, but for a while the gods were just not amused and let them blow up on each - and rightly so.

the 2001 WS was the weirdest series since 1960, no?
   34. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 12, 2017 at 05:18 PM (#5551562)
What's so weird about the team that had been outscored 35 to 14 being two outs away from the championship?
   35. jmurph Posted: October 12, 2017 at 05:39 PM (#5551572)
I suppose you could argue if a guy like Bob Brenly won a WS title... then idiots sometimes do prosper as managers, but it seems a poor bet to place all your money on that possible outcome, instead of hedging your bet with, say, competence.

True. But also true:
at least last year we had Maddon and Francona playing "can you top this?" with stupid pitching choices that were ridiculed as they happened. sometimes I thought one of them would get lucky and it would turn out ok, but for a while the gods were just not amused and let them blow up on each - and rightly so.
   36. No longer interested in this website Posted: October 12, 2017 at 07:36 PM (#5551629)
Saw an article in the Globe, IIRC, that said Dombrowski almost always travels with the team, and is usually in the clubhouse before and after games. That constant presence seems likely to undermine a first-level supervisor in almost any work environment, and probably more so in MLB where the clubhouse is viewed as something of a sanctuary for uniformed personnel. Most GMs do it differently, at least from what I've read.


I think this is typical Boston media over-analysis. Dombrowski rarely traveled with the Tigers. He's doing more now because his children are grown. However, I never heard that he was in the clubhouse a lot in Detroit. He wasn't. If he is in Boston, that's more of a sign that he needs to be. Which given the clubhouse lawyering in Beantown in recent years, makes sense.

My experience with Dombrowski is that he's a solid corporate man. He will run the team the way his bosses want if that's the marching orders, But he has his own style too. He's not (contrary to public opinion) against young talent. He simply believes (and I think rightly so) that the vast majority of young prospects are very overvalued and worth trading for established ML players. I do not think he'll hire Ausmus, but it wouldn't shock me.
   37. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 12, 2017 at 07:56 PM (#5551634)
From the article mentioned in # 31:
Red Sox president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski is one of the few executives at his level who still attends nearly every game.

Others designate subordinates to travel with the team or even occasionally skip home games to go watch minor league affiliates play. But with only a few exceptions, Dombrowski is on the field for batting practice and in the clubhouse after every game.

If a GM President of Baseball Operations feels a needs to constantly hover around the team, there is likely a problem with the manager or President of Baseball Operations, possibly even both in a worst case scenario.
   38. Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine Posted: October 12, 2017 at 08:02 PM (#5551639)
36 is consistent with what I’ve seen from DD. For al the talk about his “dislike” of young players he’s got a pretty good track record of giving kids a shot. What he has historically done VERY well is identify the players to keep and those to deal. I’m sure his record isn’t perfect but it seems like more often than not he comes out ahead on those deals.

He’s not been afraid to thrust kids into a pennant race; Renteria was a 20 year old starting shortstop, Verlander, Zumaya, Porcello, Benintendi, Devers, even Moncada got called up and put into important situations as young players in many cases far sooner than was anticipated. It’s easy for us to sit here and say “well of course, they were all good” but the ability to identify players who are good enough both on the field and mentally to handle such things is kind of a big part of being a GM.
   39. Rough Carrigan Posted: October 12, 2017 at 09:52 PM (#5552013)
Along with being the manager when the team won 2 straight division titles, Farrell was also manager when the team made 2 straight last place finishes. (Yes, he did not finish the second of those, Lovullo did because of Farrell's health). Seems to be about even.
   40. Chip Posted: October 13, 2017 at 12:04 AM (#5552558)
I didn’t think it could be possible, but Clapper’s attempts at ####-stirring here are more pathetic than his “whataboutism” defenses of Trump in the politics topics.
   41. TVerik, who wonders what the hell is "Ansky" Posted: October 13, 2017 at 02:41 AM (#5552960)
It's been a good couple of days for me. My Yankees advance, and the Sox fired their manager.

The firing thing pretty much always makes me happy. Except for when they fired Bobby Valentine. I really wanted them to give him a lifetime contract.
   42. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 13, 2017 at 01:22 PM (#5553186)
I didn’t think it could be possible, but Clapper’s attempts at ####-stirring here are more pathetic than his “whataboutism” defenses of Trump in the politics topics.

Mischaracterizing two threads in a single post? Quite the accomplishment! Actual Thinking Fans™ discuss substance, not other posters. The bottom line is that the Red Sox fired their manager under unusual circumstances - after two straight 1st places finishes - and haven't done a very good job articulating the reasons for their decision. It's a pretty big story, but apparently some here think it's off limits for discussion by those who don't self-identify as Red Sox fans. Sad. There's nothing in my prior posts that hasn't already been raised in the news coverage and/or comments by some Red Sox fans.
   43. Nasty Nate Posted: October 13, 2017 at 01:30 PM (#5553196)
It's a pretty big story, but apparently some here think it's off limits for discussion by those who don't self-identify as Red Sox fans.
You shouldn't complain about be mis-characterized and then plop down that peice of imaginative fiction.

---
The bottom line is that the Red Sox fired their manager under unusual circumstances - after two straight 1st places finishes - and haven't done a very good job articulating the reasons for their decision.
I agree. Discuss away.

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