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Wednesday, May 16, 2018

Braves fans flooded MLB’s Twitter after controversial replay ruling erased a run

The Atlanta Braves were on the wrong side of two controversial calls in the fifth inning against the Cubs on Tuesday. Most of all, it included an apparent missed call after a replay review.

What is the real purpose of MLB replay?
To get the call right? (Laughable)
Or to protect on-field umpires? (Likely)

Justin Turner Overdrive Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:16 PM | 104 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: braves, cubs, replay

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   1. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5673652)
Replay should be eliminated. Entirely. It does nothing but #### up the game.
   2. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5673660)
I agree with #1 but what makes us think this was a missed call? On the replays I saw it looks like the runner's hand is in the air when he is tagged on the helmet. At the very least I think it's correct to say there isn't a clear mistake here. The above home plate camera angle shows the hand over home plate before the tag but the other angles I saw made it look like that hand didn't touch the plate.

Replay sucks, we all know that and frankly we knew it before it happened. I don't think this proves anything about it though.
   3. Lassus Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:51 PM (#5673664)
I'd absolutely prefer no replay, but anything involving Sam and umpires isn't really going to go anywhere rational.
   4. Lassus Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5673667)
To get the call right? (Laughable)
Or to protect on-field umpires? (Likely)


This is totally dumb, considering how many calls are overturned generally and how this one looked specifically.
   5. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5673668)
Replay sucks, we all know that and frankly we knew it before it happened. I don't think this proves anything about it though.

Agree with both sentences. Replay can never hope to get these calls right where we're talking 1/4 inch or 1/2 inch. In fact it's created wrong calls at 2B with the ridiculous "lose contact for a millisecond, while the fielder is pushing you" rulings.
   6. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:56 PM (#5673679)
It's tired ground that we've covered almost as much as steroids and we all have our ideas (mine is 30 seconds max. review initiated by a fifth ump, no challenges) but we are stuck with this.
   7. The_Ex Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5673685)
I would give the crew 30 seconds to decide on replay. If its an obvious error it gets corrected, if you need a slide rule just play on.
   8. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:13 PM (#5673697)
The overhead angle showed clearly that the tag didn't get the helmet. By the time the glove found the shoulder, the hand was halfway across the plate. It was clearly safe. But again, replay should be punted entirely. It does not improve the game. They have made the "perfect" the enemy of the good, while missing the "perfect" far too frequently still.
   9. A Dying Soul Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:19 PM (#5673704)
The overhead angle showed clearly that the tag didn't get the helmet. By the time the glove found the shoulder, the hand was halfway across the plate. It was clearly safe. But again, replay should be punted entirely. It does not improve the game. They have made the "perfect" the enemy of the good, while missing the "perfect" far too frequently still.


Yes, it's why i've been against it from the start. For all plays it gets right, it gets a lot wrong. I'd rather it be gone too. Instead have better umpiring standards.
   10. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:31 PM (#5673713)
I like the idea I've heard around here, the umps have 30 seconds to watch it on the jumbotron. That would allow them to fix the "obvious" mistakes (Galaragga perfect game) that led the outcry for replay in the first place.
   11. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:36 PM (#5673721)
Yes, it's why i've been against it from the start. For all plays it gets right, it gets a lot wrong. I'd rather it be gone too. Instead have better umpiring standards.


Replay and video should be used as part of umpire/referee/official grading and evaluations, as should pitchFX data and such. But once the game is on, in any sport, get the tech out of the way and let the humans sportsball.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:41 PM (#5673730)
That would allow them to fix the "obvious" mistakes (Galaragga perfect game) that led the outcry for replay in the first place.

Eh. If they got the call right, we wouldn't remember the guy's name.

Obvious umpire mistakes are part of baseball lore, just like ridiculous errors by players.
   13. Rally Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5673754)
Eh. If they got the call right, we wouldn't remember the guy's name.


If they got the call right, Galaragga would be as famous as Phil Humber. Is Galaragga better known to casual fans than Humber?

I honestly don't know. I should not generalize from myself but I know about as much of either pitcher. Neither had a long career. I could not tell you which season either last pitched in. If someone brought up either name and asked me what I knew about them I'd say:

Humber - first round pick, below average MLB pitcher, but one day he threw a perfect game.

Galaragga - below average MLB pitcher, son of slugger Andres, one out away from perfect game on a blown call.
   14. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:06 PM (#5673759)
Humber - first round pick, below average MLB pitcher, but one day he threw a perfect game.

I wouldn't have named him as having thrown a perfecto if you gave me 500 guesses. Who can I name?

Larson, Wells, Tom Browning, Halladay, Dallas Braden. Len Barker? That's about it. Only remember Braden b/c he was on my fantasy team.
   15. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:19 PM (#5673768)
son of slugger Andres
I don't think that's true...
   16. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:21 PM (#5673769)
Larson, Wells, Tom Browning, Halladay, Dallas Braden. Len Barker? That's about it. Only remember Braden b/c he was on my fantasy team.


No Felix Hernandez?
   17. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5673771)
No Felix Hernandez?

Did he throw one?
   18. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:30 PM (#5673777)
Did he throw one?


Yes.
   19. Jess Franco Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5673780)

Replay sucks, we all know that and frankly we knew it before it happened

You knew, and I knew, allegedly, but people in a high tech society want high tech solutions. Every day we hear calls for robot umps, like that would solve everything.

Human extinction will solve all of our problems, admittedly.
   20. Spahn Insane Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:39 PM (#5673784)
David Cone, Catfish, Dennis Martinez...

Browning came closer than anyone else to throwing two perfectos.
   21. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:43 PM (#5673789)

Browning came closer than anyone else to throwing two perfectos.
Well, he came within three outs of doing so. So did Mike Mussina.
   22. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:43 PM (#5673791)
Jim Bunning vs the Mets on Fathers Day 1964. Sandy Koufax in 65.
   23. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:46 PM (#5673793)
Mark Buerhle

Reading the wiki page for Buerhle's:

At the time, the Rays were tied for the second-highest on-base percentage (.343) of any team, so they were one of the least likely to allow a perfect game.[3] Buehrle’s perfect game was to become the first of three perfect games and the first of four no-hitters allowed by Rays in less than three years:

the second was delivered by Dallas Braden of the Oakland Athletics on May 9, 2010 (Mother's Day)
the third was pitched by Edwin Jackson of the Arizona Diamondbacks on June 25, 2010[4]
and the fourth, which meant the Rays tied the Dodgers as the only MLB franchise to allow three perfect games, being delivered by Félix Hernández on August 15, 2012.[5]


That was a helluva run by the Rays there.

And cause it was Buerhle:
Time: 2:03
   24. Zonk will have the cheese plate with your whine Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:56 PM (#5673800)
I think making sure Mike Witt gets named is my specialty in perfect game trivia...
   25. The Duke Posted: May 16, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5673810)
The Braves lost because of aggressive base running. I was at the game. Freeman out at plate on an aggressive play and then two runners in the same inning trying to advance on passed balls. Thems are the breaks - you have to win beyond the margin of umpire.

I liked the philosophy, the cubs made three perfect throws from awkward positions to win all three battles - that doesn’t happen much


   26. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 16, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5673811)
mine is 30 seconds max. review initiated by a fifth ump, no challenges


yep. This the way it's done in all codes of football in Australia. There's a booth guy who's always watching the play, if there is a reviewable close call, he's already on it by the time the
on-field refs ask for it. Sure sometimes the decisions are still puzzling but it's pretty quick.

Also, this business where the coaches(or in cricket's case, the on-field captain) has the right to challenge is bullocks. The refs/umps are there to adjudicate, that's their job and no one else should be a part of the process.
   27. bfan Posted: May 16, 2018 at 06:14 PM (#5673814)
Thems are the breaks - you have to win beyond the margin of umpire.


that is nice to say, but at a professional level, when things are so close, you kind of hope for a level playing field. This just fed into the narrative that MLB is all in for a dodgers/cubs-Yankees/red sox WS, and let everyone else be damned. I even get that desire; after all, it is a form of entertainment, and if that is what the most fans want, then let's try and give it to them. Just be clear what the rules are; the umps can wear a sign: "tie goes to the cubs"
   28. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 16, 2018 at 06:30 PM (#5673821)
And oh, I loathe replay. I was never in support of it in any game. Yeah, refs/umps miss calls, that's just part of sport.
   29. The Duke Posted: May 16, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5673831)
Well let’s be clear. I’m not suggesting the umps or NY are shading the result. That’s silly imo. Those teams win more because they have more payroll. It’s that simple, the game isn’t being compromised to get a big market result.

For the record, it wasn’t clear to me that the guy was safe at home. I think he might have been but I don’t think the replay was definitive.
   30. jacjacatk Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:06 PM (#5673878)
Browning came closer than anyone else to throwing two perfectos


Halladay only walked one in his NLDS no hitter the season he threw his, though admittedly I don't know at what point in the game the walk occurred. I do know it was a pretty borderline ball 4 though.
   31. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:10 PM (#5673880)
I don't disagree with all the teeth gnashing about replay, but bear in mind the call on the field was out. Replay didn't remove a run from the board. It merely failed to overturn the call on the field and thus put a run on the board.
   32. SoSH U at work Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:38 PM (#5673894)
Is Galaragga better known to casual fans than Humber?


Yes. Very much so.

Galarraga's game will be remembered long after Humber's. In fact, of the sport's five-most well known perfect-type games through history, only one is an official one.

1) Larsen (still a perfect game, but done in the non-regular portion of the season).
2) Haddix (lost after 12).
3) Koufax (official)
4) Shore, done in relief, like Harvey, stripped of status in Faye's great no-hitter purge.
5) Galarraga, lost on umpire boner.

Buehrle is probably the official one that's next on the list, largely due to DeWayne Wise's spectacular catch to preserve it.
   33. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:56 PM (#5673906)
4) Shore, done in relief, like Harvey, stripped of status in Faye's great no-hitter purge.


I've never heard of this one before.
   34. SoSH U at work Posted: May 16, 2018 at 10:05 PM (#5673916)
I've never heard of this one before.


It's the oldest, by far.

Ernie Shore. In 1917, he came on in relief of Babe Ruth, who was ejected after walking the leadoff hitter and arguing with the ump. That guy was caught stealing, and Shore sent down the next 26 in a row.

   35. Justin Turner Overdrive Posted: May 16, 2018 at 10:40 PM (#5673933)
#31
In an effort to get an unbiased review, what if NY were not told what the call on the field was? Just watch the play & make the call.
   36. Justin Turner Overdrive Posted: May 16, 2018 at 10:45 PM (#5673938)
#25
Freeman was out.

Camargo at home was debateable (I lean safe, but was close enough for review).

Culberson at 3B was absolutely safe (Sam Holbrook doing Sam Holbrook things). But losing the review on Camargo the play before, Atlanta could not challenge.
   37. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 09:10 AM (#5674023)
I don't disagree with all the teeth gnashing about replay, but bear in mind the call on the field was out. Replay didn't remove a run from the board. It merely failed to overturn the call on the field and thus put a run on the board.


And burned 5 minutes or so of game time in the thrilling mid-innings event of every MLB game this year; "watching the umps watch tv." If you're going to stop the game, at the very least you must get the call right. They didn't. I'd rather live in a world where Braves fans are sore over the missed call in real time, but everyone's agrees "it was bang bang, guy made the best call he could from his angle." But if we're going to live in a tech-review world, for god's sake, at least get the #### correct.
   38. dlf Posted: May 17, 2018 at 09:52 AM (#5674033)
Ernie Shore. In 1917, he came on in relief of Babe Ruth, who was ejected after walking the leadoff hitter and arguing with the ump. That guy was caught stealing, and Shore sent down the next 26 in a row.


If I remember correctly, Shore picked him off.

This other part I may be conflating with a different game, but isn't this also the one where Ruth punched the Ump?
   39. dlf Posted: May 17, 2018 at 09:54 AM (#5674035)
son of slugger Andres
I don't think that's true...


B-ref doesn't show any relation.
   40. SoSH U at work Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:00 AM (#5674037)
If I remember correctly, Shore picked him off.


I've seen it both ways. Since both are caught stealings, I went with the broader term.
   41. villageidiom Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:07 AM (#5674042)
If you want to overturn the obvious missed calls, then there's no need for slow motion on replay. An obvious missed call should be obvious at actual speed.

This is demonstrated by noting that in most (but not all) replay challenges the manager waits until someone in the clubhouse has seen a slow-motion replay to decide if it's worth a challenge. If the manager doesn't know if it's a blown call in absence of slow-motion replay advice, then it's clearly not an obvious missed call.

The obvious missed calls are cases where either the umpire simply made the wrong call and everyone knows it, or the umpire had a bad angle and reached a different call than he would have made from another angle. Actual-speed replay in the former case should take no more than a minute; and in the latter case it'll go only as long as it takes to find a replay with a better angle. If that's all that replay addresses, I'm good with that. Replay reviews will be far fewer; they will be initiated faster; they will take less time; and they will overturn most if not all of the obviously wrong calls.
   42. Eddo Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:13 AM (#5674052)
In fact it's created wrong calls at 2B with the ridiculous "lose contact for a millisecond, while the fielder is pushing you" rulings.

I get the argument that we shouldn't be using replay on calls where a runner's hand comes off by a quarter inch, but I don't understand how the outcome is "wrong". If the umpire had eagle-level vision and saw the tag being applied while the runner wasn't touching the base, should he not call him out?
   43. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:17 AM (#5674057)
If the umpire had eagle-level vision and saw the tag being applied while the runner wasn't touching the base, should he not call him out?


I'm going to say "no." If the runner is only "out" because of a microfractional momentary loss of contact with the bag caused by his momentum, he's safe. If he slides through the bag and actually loses contact because he slid late or heavy or whatever? Yes. "Out." If he gets tagged prior to getting to the bag, "out." If he beats the ball to the bag and is only "out" because his hand bounced a micrometer off the base for 1/1000ths of a second? Safe.
   44. SoSH U at work Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5674059)
I get the argument that we shouldn't be using replay on calls where a runner's hand comes off by a quarter inch, but I don't understand how the outcome is "wrong".


Wouldn't the fact that it's an absolute deviation from 100-plus years of baseball suggest that? If guys hands or feet are coming off the base for a fraction of a second now, they've been doing that for as long as the game has been played. But it wasn't until four years ago that the outcome of that play changed, without any change in the rules governing the actual play.
   45. Howie Menckel Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5674067)
agreed
   46. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5674068)
I get the argument that we shouldn't be using replay on calls where a runner's hand comes off by a quarter inch, but I don't understand how the outcome is "wrong". If the umpire had eagle-level vision and saw the tag being applied while the runner wasn't touching the base, should he not call him out?

Because the fielder is holding the tag long after the play used to be called and decided. I'm also sure they're applying as much pressure as they can to try and cause separation.

Wouldn't the fact that it's an absolute deviation from 100-plus years of baseball suggest that? If guys hands or feet are coming off the base for a fraction of a second now, they've been doing that for as long as the game has been played. But it wasn't until four years ago that the outcome of that play changed, without any change in the rules governing the actual play.

Yes. If a guy who was safe for 150 years is now out, replay is changing the game. It shouldn't be allowed to do that.
   47. Eddo Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:29 AM (#5674069)
I'm going to say "no." If the runner is only "out" because of a microfractional momentary loss of contact with the bag caused by his momentum, he's safe. If he slides through the bag and actually loses contact because he slid late or heavy or whatever? Yes. "Out." If he gets tagged prior to getting to the bag, "out." If he beats the ball to the bag and is only "out" because his hand bounced a micrometer off the base for 1/1000ths of a second? Safe.

So what's the line when oversliding? A quarter inch? A full inch? What is "beat[ing] the ball to the bag", exactly, in terms of how we train new umpires to recognize it?

I actually think replay should not allow slow motion on any non-boundary plays (i.e. fair/foul and HR/not HR can use frame-by-frame, but out/safe calls can't), but if a full-speed replay can see the runner come off the base while being tagged, I feel like that should be an out, regardless of how far off he is or what happened immediately prior to that (with the exception of a runner being *forced* off the bag, which is in the rules already).
   48. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:35 AM (#5674073)
I have no problem with calling the runner out in the situation described in #42. I DO have a problem with using replay to review it. For me the tradeoff of a delay in the game is not worth it. If the umps sees it, good for him. But if it's not seen in live time, move on.
   49. Rusty Priske Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:38 AM (#5674076)
Replay makes baseball better.

That doesn't mean they couldn't (and shouldn't) make REPLAYS better.

Getting the call right matters.
   50. Rusty Priske Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5674077)
Oh, and they got that call at home right. He was out.
   51. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:43 AM (#5674080)
Replay makes baseball better.


Lot's of people disagree. To me, the annoyance of the delay, and uncertainty that I actually saw what I just saw, completely overwhelms the value of marginally better accuracy.

Getting the call right matters.

At the high level of accuracy that human umps already had, it actually doesn't. Calls being 99.8% correct instead of 99.7% is meaningless to the entertainment value of baseball. And that's all baseball is, entertainment.

However, a five minute delay while umpires watch TV, and still get the call wrong, or reverse a correct call, definitely hinders my enjoyment.
   52. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5674083)
Replay makes baseball better.


I couldn't disagree more. I agree that getting the call right matters but this is an entertainment product and right now replay just destroys entertainment.

Last night for example Stephen Piscotty (I think it was Piscotty) made a spectacular catch in the Red Sox game. He leapt over the wall and as he did that he caught the ball and fell into the stands. It looked like a catch in live time and on the first replay it was obvious that he caught it. We still had to wait around for almost two minutes to confirm that what we saw happened actually happened. There was no reason for a two minute delay that sucks the drama and excitement out of the moment.
   53. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:46 AM (#5674087)
Right now replay is like meeting someone who is dying of thirst and blasting them with a fire hose. It fixes the problems it's meant to fix but creates a whole new set of problems that are entirely avoidable by using any of dozens of much more sensible solutions.
   54. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:50 AM (#5674090)
This is demonstrated by noting that in most (but not all) replay challenges the manager waits until someone in the clubhouse has seen a slow-motion replay to decide if it's worth a challenge. If the manager doesn't know if it's a blown call in absence of slow-motion replay advice, then it's clearly not an obvious missed call.

The view from the dugout isn't very good on a lot of plays. I also don't think you can have a replay system that upholds clearly incorrect calls on the premise that you wouldn't know that the call was wrong without replay.
   55. Eddo Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM (#5674097)
Wouldn't the fact that it's an absolute deviation from 100-plus years of baseball suggest that? If guys hands or feet are coming off the base for a fraction of a second now, they've been doing that for as long as the game has been played. But it wasn't until four years ago that the outcome of that play changed, without any change in the rules governing the actual play.

This is the same BS argument used against shifting, and I don't buy it. We have better data now (high definition video is indeed data) that allows us to change tactics (in this case, keeping tags on the runner longer than players used to).

------

Because the fielder is holding the tag long after the play used to be called and decided. I'm also sure they're applying as much pressure as they can to try and cause separation.

This used to happen to me in youth leagues, kids would hold the tags until the umpire granted time out.

If your issue is with fielders pushing runners off the base, then clamor for that rule to actually be enforced.
   56. Eddo Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:56 AM (#5674100)
Right now replay is like meeting someone who is dying of thirst and blasting them with a fire hose. It fixes the problems it's meant to fix but creates a whole new set of problems that are entirely avoidable by using any of dozens of much more sensible solutions.

This is exactly why Rusty said:

Replay makes baseball better.

That doesn't mean they couldn't (and shouldn't) make REPLAYS better.


Let's focus on ways to make replay better than trying to abolish it entirely, e.g. the no-slow-motion policy, enforcing rules about pushing runners off bases, etc.
   57. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5674111)
Right, but Rusty's first point that it makes baseball better is one I disagree with. The end result is not an improvement.
   58. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:14 AM (#5674112)
Let's focus on ways to make replay better than trying to abolish it entirely, e.g. the no-slow-motion policy, enforcing rules about pushing runners off bases, etc.

But I'd rather it be abolished. There is no improvement that could make me prefer replay to no-replay.
   59. wjones Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:20 AM (#5674119)
Oh, and they got that call at home right. He was out.

Nope. Not even that close.

The rule that you can't challenge a play after losing a challenge is well-meaning but short-sighted, clearly illustrated last night. Culberson was also clearly safe, but Sam 'infield fly' Holbrook knew he could call an out, wouldn't be challenged, and be able to look smug with that 'go ahead, say one word and you're gone' look on his face.
   60. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM (#5674125)
Sam 'infield fly' Holbrook knew he could call an out, wouldn't be challenged, and be able to look smug with that 'go ahead, say one word and you're gone' look on his face.
Yeah, you might be reading just a smidge into that.
   61. SoSH U at work Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5674138)
This is the same BS argument used against shifting, and I don't buy it. We have better data now (high definition video is indeed data) that allows us to change tactics (in this case, keeping tags on the runner longer than players used to).


It isn't the same argument. Teams shifted long before data. Data didn't make shifting possible. Positioning has always been a part of baseball.

And players keeping tags on runners can very well be the cause of runners losing momentary contact with the base.
   62. SoSH U at work Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:57 AM (#5674167)
Additionally, with shifting, teams are using data to make better decisions about where to position players, but they're still responding to how the game is and always has been played.

Here, teams are using data to change the way they're playing in the hopes of using the data AGAIN to get a preferred call.

That's not the same thing.
   63. Perry Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5674174)
Last night for example Stephen Piscotty (I think it was Piscotty) made a spectacular catch in the Red Sox game. He leapt over the wall and as he did that he caught the ball and fell into the stands. It looked like a catch in live time and on the first replay it was obvious that he caught it. We still had to wait around for almost two minutes to confirm that what we saw happened actually happened. There was no reason for a two minute delay that sucks the drama and excitement out of the moment.


Except that according to the announcers on the feed I was watching (don't remember if it was Oakland or Boston), the call on the field was "no catch." Piscotty only got credit for his great play because replay overturned the call on the field.

Nevertheless, I'm 100% opposed to replay except maybe for boundary calls.
   64. Spahn Insane Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5674178)
Nieporent @ 21:

Yes, that’s what I meant re Browning. I did not realize Mussina had done the same.

Edit: Looking it up, you’ll have to clue me in on Mussina.
   65. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5674198)
So what's the line when oversliding?


Honestly? An umpire who has made it to the tier of Major League Baseball should know it when s/he sees it.
   66. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:34 PM (#5674201)
There is literally no sport where video review has improved the game on the field. There is no sport where video review has improved the experience of a fan in the stands. The only thing video review provides is more talking time for announcers on television. No one tunes in to hear local sports guy Jimmy talking about the umpires talking about the video they're watching. Snapper is right. The marginal "improvement" in "getting the call right" is far less than the negative value the process brings to the game itself.
   67. SoSH U at work Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:39 PM (#5674207)
Edit: Looking it up, you’ll have to clue me in on Mussina.


Mussina lost two perfect games in the ninth-inning. Given that Browning got one and lost another in the ninth, I think he's the only answer.

   68. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5674220)
There is literally no sport where video review has improved the game on the field. There is no sport where video review has improved the experience of a fan in the stands.

Football is particularly egregious.

Pass over the middle, receiver catches, fumbles, defense recovers and runs it back 75 yards for a TD. The fans are going crazy. Wait. What? The receiver didn't make a "football move" so it's an incomplete pass. Call it all back.

Or hail Mary pass into the end zone at the buzzer. Receiver catches the ball, gets both feet clearly in bounds and then falls to the ground. Oh wait, this is an incompletion b/c of an imperceptible wobble of the ball in his hands while he was falling to the ground.

   69. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5674283)
Football is particularly egregious.


The heady combination of stupidities that are video review, and the NFL's "catch rule(s)", are indeed something to behold. But video is terrible in football and baseball. It's terrible in basketball. It's terrible in soccer. It's terrible everywhere. Baseball in particularly slows down an already slow pace of play with "let's watch officials watch television!" Basketball and soccer are noticeable in that games that are meant to be non-stop back and forth running are suddenly at a standstill while officials draw rectangles in the air and then trot 40 feet away to watch television.
   70. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5674287)
It's terrible in soccer.


Wait until this summer's World Cup. The biggest sporting event in the world and it's going to have replay administered by referees who have never had to administer it before. The potential for embarrassment and failure is off the charts.
   71. drdr Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:57 PM (#5674312)
Two referees constantly watching the video. Replay can be initiated by challenge, video refs or field refs. Maximum time 60 seconds, except on HR fair/foul. Refs on the field get everything streamed to their tablets. Final decision is on refs - majority (field+video) needed for the decision.

Edit: 60 seconds is from the end of the play, so if manager is waiting 55 seconds for the challenge, refs have 5 seconds for the replay.
   72. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:59 PM (#5674314)
Wait until this summer's World Cup.


USMNT tell me that's been cancelled this year.
   73. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:01 PM (#5674317)
USMNT tell me that's been cancelled this year.


No way! It's going to be great! Italy are the favorites but the US and the Dutch look poised to make a run!!!
   74. Ithaca2323 Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5674323)
Edit: Looking it up, you’ll have to clue me in on Mussina.


Mussina came within one out one time, and two outs a second time. So he missed the two perfect games by a combined three outs.

Edit: Coke to Sosh
   75. PreservedFish Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:08 PM (#5674325)
Replay in tennis actually seems sort of reasonable. It happens VERY quickly.
   76. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5674345)
Of note, the action in tennis is already stopped when the robot is called into play. And the system there is very simple. There's a laser eye on the lines that know precisely if the ball hit in or out. There's no human in a booth in New York reviewing 12 different camera angles to see if a sliver of a lace from the catcher's glove caught the runner's billowing uniform on the back as he slid around the tag at home.
   77. jmurph Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:40 PM (#5674366)
And tennis replay is fun! Who doesn't like the excitement of waiting to see where the shadow of the ball ends up?
   78. PreservedFish Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5674368)
I know it’s not a useful comparison to baseball. But I do think it’s an example of non-ruinous replay.
   79. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:58 PM (#5674390)
While we're ranting about this, the play at home is the worst case for review. First MLB modifies the rules so catchers have to play off the plate. Then they use hi-def video to decide if the swipe tag ghosted the uniform in spirit before the hand got down. It's like MLB's rules committee is literally trying to destroy the game.
   80. Spahn Insane Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:46 PM (#5674435)
Mussina came within one out one time, and two outs a second time. So he missed the two perfect games by a combined three outs.

Gotcha; thanks. Clever, but pedantic (and no, I'm neither new here nor surprised).

My point, in case it wasn't obvious, was that in having actually completed a perfect game previously, Browning's taking another perfect start into the ninth put him within three outs of a second perfect game. Mussina was never within 3 outs of a second perfect game, because he never pitched a first.
   81. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5674441)
There is literally no sport where video review has improved the game on the field. There is no sport where video review has improved the experience of a fan in the stands.

To take this to its logical conclusion, when a clearly incorrect game 7 call that would have have cost Albie his WS ring is then correctly overturned, I'm slightly at a loss for your reaction following.

Or, better, the incorrect call costing the Braves the WS stands as replay was abolished the previous year.
   82. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5674445)
Browning's taking another perfect start into the ninth put him within three outs of a second perfect game.

Buehrle went 6 perfect innings into the game after his DeWise game.

   83. Rally Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:12 PM (#5674461)
son of slugger Andres
I don't think that's true...


B-ref doesn't show any relation.


Well count me as fooled. The only 2 Galarragas to ever play MLB baseball. Both from Venezuela (Andres from Caracas, Armando a city I have not heard of). Both names start with "A", certainly not uncommon in many families to use the same letters. Both listed as 6'3, playing weight 230 or 235. Born 21 years apart, so the timeline fits.

Wiki doesn't mention any relationship either.
   84. The Duke Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:21 PM (#5674474)
Replay works great in tennis. Replay in baseball works great on calls at first.

Therefore, I would limit replay to three areas in baseball:

Foul and home run Line calls
Plays at first base
Very limited umpire discretion when they say they didn’t have a clear view.

As a season ticket holder I hate how replay ruins the continuity of the game and I hate the tv angle where the clueless manager is on the top step staring back at the coach on The phone waiting for thumbs up/down. It feels so very wrong to me
   85. villageidiom Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:22 PM (#5674475)
The view from the dugout isn't very good on a lot of plays. I also don't think you can have a replay system that upholds clearly incorrect calls on the premise that you wouldn't know that the call was wrong without replay.
Understood on your first sentence, but there is almost no cause for a replay that doesn't involve someone from each team who was closer to the action. Presumably the manager doesn't have to cause a supposedly-no-more-than-30-seconds-but-really-longer-than-that delay to wait for an initial review by someone elsewhere using the technology the manager isn't supposed to be using in the dugout.

Regarding your second sentence, I'm advocating a replay system that overturns clearly incorrect calls on the premise that many people other than the umpire already know it's wrong without the benefit of replay. Those were the cases that were made for replay in the first place; I'm just choosing the way that accomplishes that without causing significant disruption to the game.
   86. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5674491)
Or, better, the incorrect call costing the Braves the WS stands as replay was abolished the previous year.


I have opposed replay in all cases for a couple of years now. I was originally somewhat agnostic and thought "this can't hurt I suppose." Plus, you know, Buster Posey was ####### out. But I was wrong. Replay hurts every sport it touches, except apparently tennis, which is not a real sport anyway.
   87. Panic Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:47 PM (#5674500)
Replay works great in tennis. Replay in baseball works great on calls at first.

Therefore, I would limit replay to three areas in baseball:

Foul and home run Line calls
Plays at first base
Very limited umpire discretion when they say they didn’t have a clear view.



I kind of like this limitation. I'd change "plays at first" to "force plays", but other than that, I like it.

I'm not sure about the umpire discretion one. There's four umps out there - someone should have seen something.
   88. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:54 PM (#5674507)
Very limited umpire discretion when they say they didn’t have a clear view.


Only if they draw a rectangle in the air before going to the monitor.
   89. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 18, 2018 at 09:51 AM (#5674888)

I would give the crew 30 seconds to decide on replay. If its an obvious error it gets corrected, if you need a slide rule just play on.


Except sometimes it's obvious from one angle, but not another. Sometimes the first four angles are ambiguous, but the fifth is not.

There is literally no sport where video review has improved the game on the field.


All that's required for review to improve the game is for umpires + video to get more calls right than umpires alone. And that's so trivially true that nobody bothers to argue it.

If guys hands or feet are coming off the base for a fraction of a second now, they've been doing that for as long as the game has been played. But it wasn't until four years ago that the outcome of that play changed, without any change in the rules governing the actual play.


If that's what you want, then simply rewrite the rule. "A batter-runner is out if, in the opinion of the nearest umpire, the ball arrives at the bag in the vicinity of the batter-runner before the batter-runner is able to tag the bag. " and let each individual umpire decide what that means.

Then we can get back to the real national past time: ######## about how the umps have it out for your team.
   90. Bhaakon Posted: May 18, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5674924)

All that's required for review to improve the game is for umpires + video to get more calls right than umpires alone. And that's so trivially true that nobody bothers to argue it.


I'd add "without wasting an inordinate amount of time in the process."
   91. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 18, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5674937)
All that's required for review to improve the game is for umpires + video to get more calls right than umpires alone.


This is the problem. You're the reason we can't have nice things.
   92. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 18, 2018 at 10:57 AM (#5674947)
Except sometimes it's obvious from one angle, but not another. Sometimes the first four angles are ambiguous, but the fifth is not.


And in my opinion if you have to go through that much review it's not a call that needs to be changed. If it can't be identified in 30 seconds then it's not an "obviously wrong" call that is worth it.
   93. Spahn Insane Posted: May 18, 2018 at 12:21 PM (#5675067)
Buehrle went 6 perfect innings into the game after his DeWise game.

Actually 5 2/3. However, between that and his retiring the last hitter he faced in the start preceding the perfect game, he set down 45 consecutive batters over the course of 3 starts. I assume that's a record.
   94. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 18, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5675102)
All that's required for review to improve the game is for umpires + video to get more calls right than umpires alone. And that's so trivially true that nobody bothers to argue it.

Not true at all. If it takes 5 minutes to get a call "right" where the difference was 1/8 inch, it's absolutely NOT an improvement.

This is the problem. You're the reason we can't have nice things.

Correct. This is not Nuclear engineering. We don't need to get 100% of the calls right.
   95. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 18, 2018 at 01:14 PM (#5675129)
Actually 5 2/3. However, between that and his retiring the last hitter he faced in the start preceding the perfect game, he set down 45 consecutive batters over the course of 3 starts. I assume that's a record.


Probably for a starter. I'm pretty sure Yusmeiro Petit actually broke that record a couple years ago though.
   96. Lassus Posted: May 18, 2018 at 01:19 PM (#5675133)
Actually 5 2/3.

I gambled, as I didn't feel like looking it up - I remembered the 6th inning was involved. I was watching the game working at MLBAM and in case anyone cares, at the time (and it may not be the case now) everyone there actively rooted against milestones and records and achievements because it caused a lot more work for everyone. When he lost the 2nd bid, everyone cheered.
   97. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 18, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5675143)
I was watching the game working at MLBAM and in case anyone cares, at the time (and it may not be the case now) everyone there actively rooted against milestones and records and achievements because it caused a lot more work for everyone.


Exhibit J that every job, even the theoretically coolest ones, eventually becomes just a job.
   98. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 18, 2018 at 01:43 PM (#5675154)
Exhibit J that every job, even the theoretically coolest ones, eventually becomes just a job.

By the end of the first week.
   99. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: May 18, 2018 at 01:55 PM (#5675169)
Growing up in the late 70's as a voracious reader of baseball card backs, I will always remember Jim Barr as the record holder for consecutive batters retired no matter how many newfangled pitchers come along.
   100. Spahn Insane Posted: May 18, 2018 at 01:55 PM (#5675170)
Probably for a starter. I'm pretty sure Yusmeiro Petit actually broke that record a couple years ago though.

Ha! You're right--Petit retired 46 straight. Parts of two starts separated by six relief appearances. The streak ended on a double by a pitcher (Jordan Lyles).
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