Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, November 19, 2012

Bud Selig approves Marlins-Blue Jays blockbuster citing “plausible baseball judgment” | HardballTalk

What he left out was that he had to suck down a liter of tequila to find that “plausible baseball judgment.”

I am sensitive to the concerns of the fans of Miami regarding this trade, and I understand the reactions I have heard since Tuesday. Baseball is a social institution with important social responsibilities and I fully understand that the Miami community has done its part to put the Marlins into a position to succeed with beautiful new Marlins Park.  Going forward, I will continue to monitor this situation with the expectation that the Marlins will take into account the sentiments of their fans, who deserve the best efforts and considered judgment of their club.  I have received assurances from the ownership of the Marlins that they share these beliefs and are fully committed to build a long-term winning team that their fans can be proud of.

Jim Furtado Posted: November 19, 2012 at 04:35 PM | 46 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays, bud selig, jeffrey loria sucks, marlins

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. RJ in TO Posted: November 19, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4306164)
"Plausible" as in "it is plausible that the fans in Toronto would murder me if I blocked this trade after allowing the even bigger salary dump between the Red Sox and Dodgers."
   2. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 19, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4306178)
"Plausible" as in "it is plausible that the fans in Toronto would murder me if I blocked this trade after allowing the even bigger salary dump between the Red Sox and Dodgers."


I bet Bud could distract them if he had the Pizza Pizza guy come out and do his routine as he made the announcement. Plus, how hard can it be to outrun a couple dozen Canadians?
   3. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 19, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4306180)
What he left out was that he had to suck...


Yes. Yes, he did.
   4. Matthew E Posted: November 19, 2012 at 04:54 PM (#4306182)
My dad suspected that Selig would veto the trade because of his, Selig's, longstanding grudge against Paul Beeston. (A grudge, mind you, whose existence I never had occasion to consider until my dad brought it up to me.)
   5. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: November 19, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4306186)
Just in terms of WAR, because we're just looking at a rough estimate:

The Red Sox traded 4 players to the Dodgers, and those 4 players produced a total of 5.0 WAR in 2012 (including games with both the Dodgers and Red Sox). So, just in WAR--ignoring everything else--the Dodgers came out ahead by 5.0 (the Dodgers did not trade any Major Leaguers who provided any value in 2012).

The Marlins traded 5 players to the Blue Jays, and those 5 players produced a total of 9.1 WAR in 2012. Of course, in return, the Marlins received a couple players who provided value in 2012 (Yunel Escobar had 2.5 WAR and Jeff Mathis 0.8). So, balancing it out, the Blue Jays have come out ahead by 5.8 WAR (trade 3.3 to receive 9.1).

In other words....solely in terms of Major League talent: These two trades were very similar. So, yeah, it'd be tough to approve one and deny the other.
   6. RJ in TO Posted: November 19, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4306187)
I bet Bud could distract them if he had the Pizza Pizza guy come out and do his routine as he made the announcement. Plus, how hard can it be to outrun a couple dozen Canadians?

Be nice. There's at least two dozen of us.
   7. Ron J2 Posted: November 19, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4306188)
#4 I find it plausible that he'd have held a grudge for the whole Paul Molitor affair. It was Beeston who heard that the Brewers were trying to get a big home town discount from Molitor and he moved quickly and handled the negotiations himself.

On the other hand, he elected to work with Beeston for quite some time so if there ever was animosity it had probably cleared.
   8. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 19, 2012 at 05:01 PM (#4306189)
Selig needed to hold off his decision until the Juan Pierre deal rebalanced the Miami franchise.
   9. Matthew E Posted: November 19, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4306194)
#7: Actually I think my father had some idea that their animosity came from Beeston's time in the commissioner's office. I forget why but it didn't sound like much to me.
   10. RJ in TO Posted: November 19, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4306201)
There was also the Clemens side deal, which probably didn't help.
   11. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: November 19, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4306207)
In scenarios like this, I find it hard to figure out, from what's published, what the franchise "should have done" (in some moral sense) versus what the franchise "is allowed to do" (under league rules and whatever law applies, if any). People usually flip out over a franchise's "obligation to its fanbase" or something like that.
   12. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 19, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4306219)
I am sensitive to the concerns of the fans of Miami regarding this trade, and I understand the reactions I have heard since Tuesday.


Filtering this through the Truth Converter:

"A baseball organization has no obligation to its fans, you idiots. We extracted $500 million in public funding for our stadium because you morons through your local politicians were stupid enough to give it to us, and we'd do it again. I don't care which players ownership used as pawns in this, or which players they now sell off. Nobody should be shocked by this."

To be clear, I am 100% in support of Selig here. Yes, I suppose what ownership did was underhanded, but people who are surprised that the Marlins did this are fools, and maybe the next time the fools won't give away $500 million in a bad economy. But probably they will.
   13. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: November 19, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4306221)
Filtering this through the Truth Converter:

"A baseball organization has no obligation to its fans, you idiots. We extracted $500 million in public funding for our stadium because you morons were stupid enough to give it to us, and we'd do it again. I don't care which players ownership used as pawns in this, or which players they now sell off. Nobody should be shocked by this."

To be clear, I am 100% in support of Selig here. Yes, I suppose what ownership did was underhanded, but people who are surprised that the Marlins did this are fools, and maybe the next time the fools won't give away $500 million in a bad economy. But probably they will.


Agreed.
   14. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 19, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4306225)
I am past the point of holding new stadia against MLB. Perhaps when this nonsense first occurred years ago people could have been forgiven for being played, but no longer.
   15. Steve N Posted: November 19, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4306231)
There was no even halfway reasonable reason for Selig to stop this trade. The Marlins have a history of cutting bait as soon as they figure the game is up but they always seem to get value back. Old players for young is not a bad idea. They didn't look to be any better this year than last so they got rid of some of the older, riskier, players.
   16. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 19, 2012 at 05:43 PM (#4306237)
#15, yes. This trade is defensible from a pure baseball point of view.
   17. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: November 19, 2012 at 06:45 PM (#4306281)
it is plausible that the fans in Toronto would murder me

In case of civil insurrection in any Canadian city, all broadcast stations (and a series of hidden, high-powered loudspeakers) are required to play this. Soon, everyone will get a goofy grin on their faces and forget why they were angry in the first place...
   18. calhounite Posted: November 19, 2012 at 07:58 PM (#4306313)
Why really gives the con away? In terms of winning games, Pierre would be in line for a minor league deal. But the mlb-certifying aura emanating from a washed up mlb vet is worth 2 mil to a sucker shop like Miami. Common tactic used by cannon fodder for years. See Pittsburgh. An actual player costs 5-8 mil. The customer comes in vaguely remembering a Pierre in the box scores. Presumed to be too dumb to notice the stench with Pierre inserted amongst the prospect fillers obtained in the trade.
   19. Guapo Posted: November 19, 2012 at 09:35 PM (#4306363)
What are some examples of "implausible baseball judgment"?

Grady Little leaving in Pedro?

Trading for Vernon Wells' contract?

The "turn forward the clock" uniforms?
   20. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: November 19, 2012 at 09:47 PM (#4306375)
19--that Napoli for Vernon Wells trade remains the most inexplicable event in my baseball-following lifetime. I can't imagine anything topping it.
   21. GregD Posted: November 19, 2012 at 09:55 PM (#4306383)
What would it take to void a trade now? We're so used to teams selling players for salary reasons that no move on those grounds would fail, right? It would have to involve secret passing of money or weird commitments to some future deal or something. I can't really imagine a deal that the commissioner could plausibly void now. I hate this trade but I would have been outraged if Bud blocked it. It's within the realm of things team do, whether we like it or not.
   22. rr Posted: November 19, 2012 at 10:24 PM (#4306405)
“plausible baseball judgment.”


Lot of handle and meme potential here.
   23. DA Baracus Posted: November 19, 2012 at 10:44 PM (#4306421)
What are some examples of "implausible baseball judgment"?


Hawk Harrelson, General Manager.
   24. Walt Davis Posted: November 19, 2012 at 10:45 PM (#4306423)
What would it take to void a trade now?

It's been 35 years since a trade was voided, hasn't it? So it would take a lot. Although I remembered Finley selling his players being voided, I'd forgotten that the Blue to Cincy trade got voided as well. Kuhn supposedly was willing to let it go through but wanted them to reduce case and add players. It's hard to say that Kuhn was really justified there. Certainly Blue had been a great pitcher at times but he was not a dominant guy by this point. He'd let the Seaver trade go through a few months earlier. And ...

the trade Kuhn voided was Blue for Dave Revering and $400,000. The A's eventually traded Blue to the Giants for 5 players and $300,000 but none of those players amounted to anything ... and the cash was just reduced by $100,000. The A's managed to land Revering and "cash" anyway for Doug Bair. Revering was nothing special but did have one average and one good season for the A's which is more than they got out of the 5 nobodies they got from the Giants. There seems to be no record of how much cash was involved -- surely less than $100,000 but still Finley got Revering, $300+ K and 5 useless players while having to give up two players rather than Revering and $400 K while retaining Bair. Finley got his money, the A's were a worse team, good job Bowie Kuhn.

Vida Blue went on to become the answer to a famous trivia question: who was the throw-in to the Royals' blockbuster 4-player deal for Bob Tufts? :-)

Bair I see was earlier part of a horrible trade:

Bair, Armas, Mitchell Page, Rick Langford, Doc Medich and Dave Giusti from the Pirates for Chris Batton, Phil Garner and Tommy Helms. I'm not even sure the Pirates got the best mustache in that deal.
   25. Snowboy Posted: November 19, 2012 at 10:59 PM (#4306442)
What are some examples of "implausible baseball judgment"?

Grady Little leaving in Pedro?

Trading for Vernon Wells' contract?

The "turn forward the clock" uniforms?


Playing back on Ty Cobb when he's in a fight for the batting title on the last day of the season?
Darren Driefort 5/$55M?
Todd Helton 9/$143M?
Greg Vaughn 4/$34M?
Jim Joyce's call on the 27th [well, I guess not] out on June 2, 2010?
Betting on baseball? Then lying about it? When you are a first-ballot HOFer?
Intentionally walking a batter with the bases loaded? [Wait...that was probably the right move with Bonds then]
Shorts as a uniform?
Trying to steal 2B with 2 outs in the 7th game of the WS? (When you are fat, and you get thrown out. Looking at you, Babe)
Letting Roseanne Barr sing the national anthem?
Charging the mound when it is occupied by Nolan Ryan?
*****
Those are individual judgements. Plus you have collective "implausible baseball judgments" like:

We won't sign any Negro players.
We won't vote for a guy who has already won an MVP. (Looking at you again, Babe)
I voted for Palmeiro as the Gold Glove at 1B, oh so did you?
I'm not voting for anyone who has been associated possibly with steroids, oh same for you?
*****
The list could go on and on. The internets are only so big, Guapo!
   26. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 19, 2012 at 11:15 PM (#4306465)
Darren Driefort 5/$55M?
Todd Helton 9/$143M?
Greg Vaughn 4/$34M?


I'd take any of those deals over the one Kei Igawa received.
   27. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: November 19, 2012 at 11:41 PM (#4306500)
Playing back on Ty Cobb when he's in a fight for the batting title on the last day of the season?

It was Nap Lajoie, actually. He was competing with Cobb for the batting title, so the Browns (if memory serves) let him beat out about half a dozen bunt hits in a doubleheader.
   28. Snowboy Posted: November 20, 2012 at 12:14 AM (#4306531)
Playing back on Ty Cobb when he's in a fight for the batting title on the last day of the season?

It was Nap Lajoie, actually. He was competing with Cobb for the batting title, so the Browns (if memory serves) let him beat out about half a dozen bunt hits in a doubleheader.


My bad, my very bad. Thanks for the correction.
Sorry 1910 Nap.
   29. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 12:45 AM (#4306540)
19--that Napoli for Vernon Wells trade remains the most inexplicable event in my baseball-following lifetime. I can't imagine anything topping it.


That ####### trade is mind-numbing.

At first I thought that MAYBE $50 million was coming with Vernon. I couldn't believe it was only $5 million. That was a horrific day for Angel fans.
   30. Random Transaction Generator Posted: November 20, 2012 at 01:04 AM (#4306546)
Jim Joyce's call on the 27th [well, I guess not] out on June 2, 2010?


Meh. It was a bad call, but at least it has a semblance of being close.

It wasn't as bad as this one.

   31. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: November 20, 2012 at 01:15 AM (#4306549)
Wasn't the A Rod to Red Sox trade vetoed?
   32. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 20, 2012 at 01:36 AM (#4306554)
Wasn't the A Rod to Red Sox trade vetoed?

Yeah, but that was for violating the CBA due to the $$ A-Rod was giving up, and the Union was the moving party, IIRC.
   33. Good cripple hitter Posted: November 20, 2012 at 03:02 AM (#4306563)
Jays have reportedly hired John Gibbons to be their manager again. Gibbons's most memorable "plausible baseball judgment" from his first tenure with the Jays was punching out Ted Lilly.

I think I'm going to like this season. I was really worried that the Jays were going to hire Jim Tracy or Manny Acta or Mike Hargrove.
   34.     Hey Gurl Posted: November 20, 2012 at 03:06 AM (#4306564)
I guess it makes sense. John Farrell was seen as being too soft on the players, etc. I guess Gibbons is seen as the hard-ass who will whip them into shape or something. He was a fairly non-descript manager, but meh, better than Valentine or Guillen I guess.

Talk about left field though. On my list of top 30 likely candidates, re-hiring John Gibbons was not a thought I had had.
   35. Good cripple hitter Posted: November 20, 2012 at 03:29 AM (#4306566)
You're not kidding. Just last week Bobby Cox seemed more likely to get another tenure as Toronto's manager.
   36. Sunday silence Posted: November 20, 2012 at 05:30 AM (#4306575)
Bair, Armas, Mitchell Page, Rick Langford, Doc Medich and Dave Giusti from the Pirates for Chris Batton, Phil Garner and Tommy Helms. I'm not even sure the Pirates got the best mustache in that deal.


the seemed the beginning of a whole series of depressing trades by the Pirates. We saw a lot of bats leave the outfield; guys like Zisk, Easler, Oliver was a lot of OF bats that went to other teams. At the time of the huge As deal Page and Armas were minor leaguers if I recall; so I didnt realize how much talent they were actually were dumping. It wasnt so apparent at the time. Phil Garner would have garned more resentment if any of the newspapers had actually pointed out we gave up like half a team for a crumulent, "Scrappy" second baseman.

The other thing I recall is that the As also later got Miguel Dilone who did pretty good for a couple years. And I remember seeing his name wondering how the hell they got him too. So there was tons of Pirates talent floating around by the late 70s; I think at that pt. someone ranked them and the Bosox as the two best in terms of farm system, obviously pennants are better things to be ranked at.


In their defense, the Pirates did have some sort of logjam at second base. So they wound up sending Willie Randolph to the Yankees if memory serves. That was huge for the Yanks. The Pirates did get Bill (super sub) Robinson in some fashion (cant recall how) from the Yanks and he produced a number of big hits for the late 70s teams. They also lost second baseman Dave Cash to Montreal who arguably had better range than Joe MOrgan. But the Pirate farm produced Rennie Stennet to fill 2B and he might have been better than both but he absolutely shattered his ankle on a steal; at the time ('77?) him and Parker were taking turns being 1/2 in NL batting race at the time.

And they had tons of bats in the OF, so it was only natural that they send out guys who couldnt really field. I dont think they thought much of Richie Zisk's defense so off he went to Tex. I know Mike Easler was a butcher, and so he found refuge in LF in Fenway park. Easler did have some pop. Al Oliver went to Montreal, and won a batting title or 2, and I think its pretty established he did not cover a lot of ground for a CF. Even if they had limitations they had a lot of pop with the bat and we didnt get much in return.

1979 was a good year and they actually pulled off trades for Madlock, Foli, etc to put together a real team. but that was the last hurrah. After that they only got worse. The Jason Thomson deal was strange and I know I dont have the whole story. I think Kuhn intervened and made them take a young unknown guy: Thomson instead of getting Jim Spencer who they wanted and was totally washed up. THe Fregosi deal was another washed up guy, I never saw what the pt was. They had earlier traded Sanguillen for manager Chuck Tanner in a very stange deal, then they somehow got Sanguillen back again, who actually helped them in 79.

The newspapers would constantly play up these guys. It really infuriated me by that pt. Jim Morrison, what the heck was he supposed to be?

On the other hand, the Yankees did take Dale Berra off their hands, but in reality he was one of the worst pro ball player I ever saw. Did you ever see the DP on throw from the outfielder to the Catcher who tagged out two Yankees at the plate in one play? The first guy slides into Home on a bang bang play at the plate and 5 sec. later here comes Berra down the line, the catcher is standing up and hardly set and Berra goes in without sliding and pretty much runs right into the tag.

He made so many bad plays in the field that never got recorded as errors and really demonstrates the limits of fielding stats. Just not getting to balls or not backing up. So OK, we got rid of a guy that had absolutely NO business in MLB.
   37. Tiboreau Posted: November 20, 2012 at 06:59 AM (#4306578)
Was the Todd Helton deal really an implausible baseball judgment?
   38. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 08:51 AM (#4306586)
In their defense, the Pirates did have some sort of logjam at second base. So they wound up sending Willie Randolph to the Yankees if memory serves. That was huge for the Yanks.


That was Medich for Randolph, Ken Brett, and Dock Ellis - another disastrous trade. Particularly in light of Stennett's injury.
   39. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 08:52 AM (#4306587)
Gibbons wouldn't have been my choice, but I guess anybody's better than Tracy.
   40. SOLockwood Posted: November 20, 2012 at 09:32 AM (#4306596)
We won't vote for a guy who has already won an MVP. (Looking at you again, Babe)


That was an explicit rule of the League Award - previous winners were ineligible.
   41. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: November 20, 2012 at 09:47 AM (#4306603)
Filtering this through the Truth Converter:

"A baseball organization has no obligation to its fans, you idiots. We extracted $500 million in public funding for our stadium because you morons were stupid enough to give it to us, and we'd do it again. I don't care which players ownership used as pawns in this, or which players they now sell off. Nobody should be shocked by this."

To be clear, I am 100% in support of Selig here. Yes, I suppose what ownership did was underhanded, but people who are surprised that the Marlins did this are fools, and maybe the next time the fools won't give away $500 million in a bad economy. But probably they will.


Agreed.

Yup.
   42. ColonelTom Posted: November 20, 2012 at 01:04 PM (#4306769)
Selig's correct that there is "plausible baseball judgment" for the Marlins' making this trade. Reyes and Buehrle were on backloaded deals, and the Jays are stuck with those now. Selig's rationale misses the entire point, though. The problem is twofold:

(1) It's a 180-degree turnaround from everything they promised the people of Miami-Dade County in exchange for stadium votes, which will have long-term effects on attendance and media deals in Miami.

(2) It's likely to make it damn near impossible for the Marlins to sign meaningful free agents or contract extensions (I'm looking at you, Giancarlo) in the foreseeable future, unless Loria sells or suddenly becomes willing to hand out no-trade clauses.

It's one thing to be viewed as a businessman. It's another to be viewed as a habitual liar and con artist. If he hadn't already done so, Loria's cemented his status in the latter category with this deal. It's likely to kill baseball in Miami if Loria doesn't sell.
   43. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4306780)
(2) It's likely to make it damn near impossible for the Marlins to sign meaningful free agents or contract extensions (I'm looking at you, Giancarlo) in the foreseeable future


And yet those unearned welfare dollars are going to keep rolling in, are they not? And oh, how Mr. Loria would love to spend more but the players aren't taking their money and the amateur and international talent is heavily capped.

Sounds like a feature, not a bug.
   44. ColonelTom Posted: November 20, 2012 at 01:21 PM (#4306794)
Oh, it's a feature to Loria, no doubt. One positive effect is that it will probably force MLB to, in the words of the Bobs from Office Space, "fix the glitch."
   45. The District Attorney Posted: November 20, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4306816)
Jim Morrison, what the heck was he supposed to be?
The Lizard King, duh.
   46. Bob Tufts Posted: November 20, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4306850)
Vida Blue went on to become the answer to a famous trivia question: who was the throw-in to the Royals' blockbuster 4-player deal for Bob Tufts? :-)


I seem to remember/prefer to think that Vida was the player to be named later. :<)

Actually, Brad Wellman was the last piece to the deal - four players went to SF and 2 to KC.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
JPWF13
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogJohn McGrath: The Giants have become the Yankees — obnoxious | The News Tribune
(8 - 11:34pm, Oct 24)
Last: JE (Jason)

Newsblog2014 WORLD SERIES GAME 3 OMNICHATTER
(496 - 11:32pm, Oct 24)
Last: CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck

NewsblogDid Adam Dunn Ruin Baseball? – The Hardball Times
(73 - 11:22pm, Oct 24)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogHow top World Series players ranked as prospects. | SportsonEarth.com : Jim Callis Article
(19 - 11:08pm, Oct 24)
Last: Chip

NewsblogBuster Olney on Twitter: "Sources: Manager Joe Maddon has exercised an opt-out clause in his contract and is leaving the Tampa Bay Rays immediately."
(77 - 11:07pm, Oct 24)
Last: HMS Moses Taylor

NewsblogOT: Politics, October 2014: Sunshine, Baseball, and Etch A Sketch: How Politicians Use Analogies
(3732 - 10:54pm, Oct 24)
Last: snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster)

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - October 2014
(381 - 9:55pm, Oct 24)
Last: RollingWave

NewsblogCurt Schilling not hiding his scars - ESPN Boston
(17 - 8:40pm, Oct 24)
Last: DJS and the Infinite Sadness

NewsblogRoyals get four AL Gold Glove finalists, but not Lorenzo Cain | The Kansas City Star
(13 - 8:11pm, Oct 24)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogBeaneball | Gold Gloves and Coco Crisp's Terrible 2014 Defense
(2 - 7:47pm, Oct 24)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread, September 2014
(915 - 7:37pm, Oct 24)
Last: CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo

NewsblogOT: NBC.news: Valve isn’t making one gaming console, but multiple ‘Steam machines’
(871 - 7:22pm, Oct 24)
Last: Jim Wisinski

NewsblogDealing or dueling – what’s a manager to do? | MGL on Baseball
(67 - 6:38pm, Oct 24)
Last: villageidiom

NewsblogThe ‘Little Things’ – The Hardball Times
(2 - 6:34pm, Oct 24)
Last: RMc is a fine piece of cheese

Newsblog9 reasons Hunter Pence is the most interesting man in the World (Series) | For The Win
(15 - 5:31pm, Oct 24)
Last: zonk

Page rendered in 0.5778 seconds
52 querie(s) executed