I have this feeling that although Rios and Wells' contracts were made to go away, the ownership is still haunted by them. Also, that pesky Canadian tax makes getting top-end free-agents difficult, and there is no way they were going to outbid the Tigers for Prince.

This has been an organization that has delivered less over the years than those other sad sacks that pass themselves off as professional sports organizations in this city.

Two World Series trophies in the last 20 years is not delivering? The Leafs can't get out of their own way, TFC is nearly as bad, and the Raptors have won exactly one playoff series in franchise history.

The Argonauts have three Grey Cups since the last Jays title, but the CFL is an eight-team league and nobody cares about the Argos anyway. I'm not a Torontonian, but it seems to me the Blue Jays have delivered at least as much as everybody else in the city combined.

This has been an organization that has delivered less over the years than those other sad sacks that pass themselves off as professional sports organizations in this city.

Gazoo?
In what world have the Leafs or Raptors* delivered more? Unless he's referring to the Toronto Rock.

There does seem to be a buzz about the Jays this year (though that's been true of nearly every April since the Burnett/Ryan/Glaus/Molina off-season of...what? 2006?), but I've been reading it as buzz that the Jays are heading in the right direction not so much that they are a playoff team now. I think I'm the most optimsitic I've ever been about the Jays since 1993 and I'm expecting a roughly .500 record this year.

*I don't actually know much about the Raptors, but it was my understanding that they're not very good.

"I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I....."

Jesus.

Also, that pesky Canadian tax makes getting top-end free-agents difficult, and there is no way they were going to outbid the Tigers for Prince.

I think this is over-stated. I believe that taxes in Ontario on the top marginal income aren't that different than those in New York. It's also not as though there were a ton of Free Agents turning TOronto down (although AA sort of hinted that they had the highest bid on Beltran).

It's also not as though there were a ton of Free Agents turning TOronto down (although AA sort of hinted that they had the highest bid on Beltran).

Gil Meche. Koji Uehara. These aren't exactly top free agents with tons of leverage, so I would be at least a little concerned that some players don't seem to want to come to Toronto for whatever reason.

I have the Jays down for 83 wins. If a few things go right, they could win 88, but that would be an awful stretch. I think any playoff team is going to have to win 90-92 games in the AL this year. So I guess I'm not being fooled by the hype.

These aren't exactly top free agents with tons of leverage, so I would be at least a little concerned that some players don't seem to want to come to Toronto for whatever reason.

Right, but every time a Free Agent turns down Toronto it's because it's in Canada, even though Meche got more money to go to KC, and Uehara made it pretty clear that he was only going to consider Baltimore and Texas.

I don't think it's the tax thing. I've read several times over the years that the Jays have guys who can help out the players with moving their money around so that their tax hit is about what it would be anyplace else, and that's certainly something that a good agent should know, even if the players themselves don't. So, if there are players who don't want to play in Toronto, I suspect it's because of a) perceived lack of opportunity to win, b) frequent border crossings, c) desire to play in the USA, and/or d) perceived cold weather.

I'm just as skeptical about the Jays' ability to take their team over the top as Buffery is, but unlike him I don't see it as a moral failure of ownership, I don't think the Jays need to take responsibility for the failure of the Leafs, and I don't think the fans are idiots for having hope. The positive things the fans are reacting to are real and worth getting excited about. It's just a question of what it's going to add up to in the end, that's all.

Watching the game last night and the popularity of the Jays and Jose Bautista got me to wondering if a successful Blue Jay team would be the first time ever that the Jays were truly the most popular team in town and Bautista the most popular Toronto athlete? In 1992/1993 the Maple Leafs were very good (conference finalists, one game from a trip to the finals) and Doug Gilmour and Dave Andreychuk seemed very popular. There is an opportunity here for the Jays it seems to me.

@ Jose Can you Seabiscuit...

I don't quite understand your question. In 1992/1993 the Blue Jays were World Series Champions, drawing 4+ million a year in attendance, and Joe Carter could do no wrong. Is your question based on the opinion that the Maple Leafs were still more popular in 1992/1993?

By the way, I still think the Blue Jays were World Champions in 1994... since TECHNICALLY the strike made it so that nobody else was World Champion :)

I don't quite understand your question. In 1992/1993 the Blue Jays were World Series Champions, drawing 4+ million a year in attendance, and Joe Carter could do no wrong. Is your question based on the opinion that the Maple Leafs were still more popular in 1992/1993?

That's kind of what I'm curious about. Did the Blue Jays eclipse the Maple Leafs at that time or was it Maple Leafs slightly ahead or neck and neck?

Tough question. Those 92-93 Leafs teams were and are extremely popular and revered here.

Even Kathy and Cathy were huge Kelly Gruber fans.

..... IS HE???

I'm so full of beans today.

Did the Blue Jays eclipse the Maple Leafs at that time or was it Maple Leafs slightly ahead or neck and neck?

Too long ago to remember :)

I'm going to say "yes" based on the casual fan in 2012. I book retired MLB players for social events as a side business, and the Blue Jays from those years (including unremarkable players like Pat Borders) have extreme name recognition. Also, the casual fan in Toronto is often surprised that Kelly Gruber isn't a household name in the U.S. because Gruber has such prominence in his/her mind. I'd say that shows a top level popularity.

I would guess people from the 93 Leafs, like Potvin, Gill, Macoun, Baumgartner, etc. still have a pretty high level of recognition in Toronto too, let alone the legends like Clark or Gilmour.

(including unremarkable players like Pat Borders)

People tend to remember World Series MVP's even if they were unremarkable players.

Even Kathy and Cathy were huge Kelly Gruber fans.

Yeah, but The Cincinnati Kid told me that Toronto is boring.

People tend to remember World Series MVP's even if they were unremarkable players.

He's an Olympic gold medalist, too.

I do recall being at the centre of all the hubbub in downtown Toronto after game 6 in 1992 and several times over-heard "now just imagine what this place will be like when the Leafs win the Cup!"

If anything what I would take from the 92-93 era is that Leafs popularity and Jays popularity have almost nothing to do with one another. If the Jays can be a huge record setting draw even when the Leafs are super popular (even by high Leaf standards) then I'm tempted to think that the Leafs situation has almost no bearing on the success of the Jays. Win and the fans show up, the Leafs are irrelevant to the equation.

This is a test.

This is a test.

Of what?

I do recall being at the centre of all the hubbub in downtown Toronto after game 6 in 1992 and several times over-heard "now just imagine what this place will be like when the Leafs win the Cup!"

I'd agree with that. I'm a Vancouverite, so maybe I'm not the best source, I get the impression that many Torontonians (and Canadians generally) really like the Jays, and badly want to see them win, but they live and die with their hockey team. It's an entirely different level of fandom. If the Jays were to somehow win the World Series this year, I'd venture that the Leafs would still be the most popular team.

It's an entirely different level of fandom. If the Jays were to somehow win the World Series this year, I'd venture that the Leafs would still be the most popular team.

I'm much more of a Jays fan than a Leafs fan, and if the Jays ever make the playoffs I'd dearly love to get back to Toronto from wherever I am for a game...but if the Leafs are ever poised to win a Cup...I don't care if I'm on the moon, I'm getting back to Toronto by any means necessary. If the Leafs ever win that place is going to spontaneously turn into the most magical place on earth for about 148 straight hours.

This is a test.

Like the emergency broadcasting system or like Abraham?

I like the faux-back unis, anyway.

I'm much more of a Jays fan than a Leafs fan, and if the Jays ever make the playoffs I'd dearly love to get back to Toronto from wherever I am for a game...but if the Leafs are ever poised to win a Cup...I don't care if I'm on the moon, I'm getting back to Toronto by any means necessary. If the Leafs ever win that place is going to spontaneously turn into the most magical place on earth for about 148 straight hours.

Hate the Leafs more than the Yankees, more than Red Sox fans at the dome, more than trolling Calgarian sportswriters. If there's even a chance they're in the finals I'll spend the month in Bali, or Long Island or Veradero. Fan entitlement in Toronto is already the most noxious thing about the city.

This is a test.

Admiral Akbar disagrees. I squid you not.

I remember while the Jays were winning their second World Series, the Leafs went on a 10-0 start to the 1993-94 season... what a time it was to be alive! I would guess it was neck-and-neck -- the Leafs were coming out of the Ballard years, and the Jays had been good for about a decade to that point.

I do find it comical that the local media, basically since they lost out on Yu Darvish, has put it on themselves to enlighten the stupid fanbase. If only we weren't so stupid, we would see the light that Buffery and Griffin shine on the rotten Jays!

Could I get an example of this supposed "Leaf fan entitlement", or are you gonna put down that strawman and let it alone?

In 1992/1993 the Maple Leafs were very good (conference finalists, one game from a trip to the finals) and Doug Gilmour and Dave Andreychuk seemed very popular. There is an opportunity here for the Jays it seems to me.

I've mentioned this before, I think, but it gives a good indication of where the Leafs were at that point.

During Game 5 of the 1993 World Series, I was in SkyDome with thousands of other people, to watch the game on the jumbotron (and celebrate downtown when it happened). It was a close game, and the fans were cheering like crazy.

But nothing that happened on the screen got a bigger cheer than when this was flashed on the screen between innings:

"The Toronto Maple Leafs beat the Tampa Bay Lightning 2-0, to set an NHL record for 9 consecutive wins to start a season."

A huge roar went up around the stadium, followed by a quick "Go Leafs Go!" chant.

We're talking about 9 games into a season, and people were going CRAZY about the Leafs in the middle of the World Series.

If the Leafs were as bungling-bad in 1992/93 as they are now, then I'd say that the Blue Jays would have been the kings of Toronto. As it was, they shared a large chunk of the crown, but the Leafs had some of it.

Now, if the Jays pull off a miracle and win the World Series this year, they will own the crown (especially if Bautista and Lawrie are the key components).

but if the Leafs are ever poised to win a Cup...I don't care if I'm on the moon, I'm getting back to Toronto by any means necessary. If the Leafs ever win that place is going to spontaneously turn into the most magical place on earth for about 148 straight hours.

This.

I fear that the celebration could get out of hand downtown, but after they clean things up and hold the parade, I will be there, regardless of what else is going on in my life or where I am in the world.

I. Will. Be. There.

Dislike the Leafs; even before the Jets came back i couldn't stand them. However, if it came down to whether I'd rather have the Jets or Jays win it all, there's no question I vote for the Jays.

I'd definitely be in the minority here in Wpg though.

Could I get an example of this supposed "Leaf fan entitlement", or are you gonna put down that strawman and let it alone?

Yeah this is what I don't really get about people who hate Leaf fans. Every single Leaf fan I know is of what I understand the stereotype of Mets fans is. Constantly bemoaning how terrible their team is but pumping their fan money into the franchise anywhere. If I were to pick something Leaf fans feel entitled to the only thing I'd be able to come up with would be "losing".

I'd definitely be in the minority here in Wpg though.

In the interests of camraderie I will break my usual BTF rule of spewing comically-intended over the top hatred for Winnipeg any time it is mentioned. It all derives from being an envious Regina-er anyway.

Always glad to to keep the Canadian prairie contingent on BTF strong, and at least we have the Jays to come together on!

If I were to pick something Leaf fans feel entitled to the only thing I'd be able to come up with would be "losing".

"Suffering" is the better word.

"Suffering" is the better word.

True!
I know one Leafs fan, my brother's girlfriend, who seems to approach her fandom a bit differently. She's convinced by our behaviour that we all hate the Leafs as she expresses her love for the Leafs through optimism. She is bewildered by all of us normal Leaf fans who seem to express love exclusively through anguish.

I'd definitely be in the minority here in Wpg though.

I'm at least one other WPG Jays fan who shares your opinion. If it was an Expos Vs. Jays decision that would be a much different story though.

I have a good friend who grew up here, during the Ballard years, grew up a Habs fan, but switched to the Sharks around 1994. He's always said to me that he hates the entitled Leafs fans and that's why he turned away from the home side. But, in recent years, he's admitted that it wasn't the Leafs fans after all. He's come to see that the media is NOT the fans, and it was the media coverage that turned him off. He's amazed at how poorly the team is covered given the size of the media covering it.

That said, I've seen some pretty bad behaviour from visiting Leafs fans in enemy arenas when they were good in the Quinn years. I can see why enemy fanbases might hate us.

That said, I've seen some pretty bad behaviour from visiting Leafs fans in enemy arenas when they were good in the Quinn years. I can see why enemy fanbases might hate us.

One thing I actually found from living in Canada outside of Toronto is that non-Toronto Leaf fans tend to be a lot more obnoxious and more positive about the team. It's like they don't have the proper self-hate indoctrination that growing up surrounded by Leaf fans brings.

That said, I've seen some pretty bad behaviour from visiting Leafs fans in enemy arenas when they were good in the Quinn years. I can see why enemy fanbases might hate us.

Those aren't "visiting" Leaf fans (if it's Ottawa, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Winnipeg).

Those are Leaf fans (or descendants of Leaf fans) that existed before those teams existed in the NHL.

Outside of Quebec, Toronto was the only team worth cheering for in Canada for about 60 years, and that established DEEP roots, even in the now-NHL cities.
It's why the three major sports networks in Canada almost ALWAYS lead their hockey highlights with Leaf games first.
It's also why the hatred for the Leafs around Canada also so widespread and vicious. It's like the rest of the country is finally developing "antibodies" to fight the (still virulent) Leaf "infection".

non-Toronto Leaf fans tend to be a lot more obnoxious and more positive about the team. It's like they don't have the proper self-hate indoctrination that growing up surrounded by Leaf fans brings.

Ding ding ding!