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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Wednesday, April 14, 2010
What do you expect when their leader Francesa predicted Vazquez will win 20 this year.
I’m not calling all Yankees fans classless and ignorant. Just the ones at Yankee Stadium today—and there were a lot of them—who booed Javier Vazquez. His line: Five and a third innings pitched, three earned runs on six hits and a couple of walks. Not a great line by any stretch—it’s the quintessential “the starter just didn’t have it today” line—but not one worthy of booing.
And to be clear: the boos weren’t merely a function of him leaving in the sixth inning after giving up a couple of hits and a wild pitch: they started in the first inning. A fan at the game tweets that fans were chanting “we want Melky” in the third inning.
I’m not the only one who thinks the fans were out of line either. The River Ave. Blues guys—Yankees fans all—were embarrassed by it. The Post’s Mike Vaccaro noted the poor form as well. And it is poor form. The man has started two games this year. These boos are almost certainly a function of people thinking back to 2004, which is amazingly weak given that, you know, the team just won the World Series five months ago. For a fan base that fancies itself so much more knowledgeable than anyone else’s, this was pretty bad.
Anyone care to defend the boo-birds here?
Repoz
Posted: April 14, 2010 at 07:54 PM | 171 comment(s)
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And ditto to #1.
Jim Acker deserved it! The way he did that... thing... that... um....
Hmmm, why the hell did we boo the #### out of that guy again?
Rudy Giuliani, a classless, ignorant Yankee fan, died today at age 83.
That is not even accurate, unless the stats on Yahoo are wrong (4 earned runs). And if the point is that when he left the mound, he had given up 3 earned runs, then maybe yes, but under traditional baseball accounting, those guys on base when he leaves are kind of his responsibility, too.
And when he left, he had a runner on second that later scored, so it was 4 runs in 5 1/3, that's a pretty lousy start from a guy who hasn't had a good start for this team since the 2004 All-Star break. The guy has a 9.82 ERA in his first two starts. I don't boo players on my team, at least, I haven't yet, and I don't think they should have booed him today. But lets not pretend that only Yankee fans would be booing Vazquez considering the circumstances. Every other team in the Majors would have a huge section of fans booing him if they were in the same position.
In all fairness, RSN will be booing Papi within 2 weeks at this rate.
The A's fan base -- granted, it's 1% the size of the Yankee fanbase -- is the most knowledgeable. It's not even close. (Forgive us the inane the T-Long chants and dot racing, though.)
Given Mike Hampton's history in Atlanta, we would have to wait until early July of 2013 to see those 1st 2 starts.
If he left the field without the trainer walking next to him, we'd probably be pretty shocked.
These would be relevant, if the excerpt didn't specifically state that Vazquez had been bood from the first inning on...
I'm pretty sure the boos were pretty scattered before the third inning, at least that's how it was represented in the RLYW game chatter.
then I guess this line was never written, in that article.
I'm a little surprised that they haven't booed him already. After all, they booed Jim Rice. Lot's of players a lot better than Javy have been booed by their home fans when they were on a bad run.
So just what is the thinking fan's position on when fans should boo their own players?
The "pitcher who can't hack in in NY", fwiw, may be a mythical creature like a unicorn, but many Yankee fans who were fans in the 80s believe in this creature; and many of them see Vasquez as an example.
So yeah, it'd be nice if they shrugged their shoulders and talked about FIPS and regression to the mean, but....
When they're black.
(assuming "thinking fan" means "Cub fan through the eyes of Milton Bradley")
In the sense that "Batboy Escapes Underground Government Lab" is news. Yankees fans are classy and refined, plus generally attractive to boot.
I'm a little surprised that they haven't booed him already. After all, they booed Jim Rice.
And Yaz and Ted and Manny and Nomar, too. Of course I'm sure they had their reasons for that---"That was different." (News Flash: Fans are fickle.)
Actually, it's not even all that much ado.
Jesus, he's gonna live that long? Ugh
When they're performing badly and it's inexplicable that they're being given playing time at all.
Fans booing their own player regardless of his performance, in an effort to demoralize the player and make him play badly (e.g. this situation) is deprecated for a variety of reasons.
See, the key to being a successful pitcher is being able to scatter your boos.
That said, if you've paid $70 or whatever it is for a ticket, you can say what you like, and Vazquez just has to deal with it.
Did Manny and Nomar ever get booed for performance reasons? Actually I don't remember them getting booed at all. If it did happen it must have been for off the field reasons, like pushing a travel secretary or trade rumors and such. If I were a player I would be more bothered and effected by being booed for performance related reasons. There's some more direct to those boos than being booed for some secondary reason. You could maybe brush that off as just being part of the business, people not knowing the facts.
It must be a pretty awful experience to get chosen out of your teammates to be the target of boos. I never thought of it much when I watched on TV but when I attended a game, I felt really bad for the player. Usually the only sounds are music, cheers, silence and then you're the only one to receive sounds of hate. It's got be an isolating experience, feeling like you're the only who is disliked.
I didn't hear one boo for Kevin Slowey today even though his line was pretty similar to Vazquez's (5 IP, 3R, 4BB, 5 Hits).
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Edited for clarity.
I think it's almost never acceptable. I say booing your own player should be a last resort to be used only when that player is showing a demonstrable lack of effort.
And the video linked to in #9 makes me want to commit violent acts. I hope karma has already had its way with those sub-morons.
I have never booed a Yankee in my life and I never will. OK, wait, I did boo Scott Brosius once, but for the life of me I can't remember why.
I think it is almost always acceptable, even when the player is trying his best. This isn't 4th grade, and effort doesn't make a ####-up better (though lack of effort can certainly make it worse). I'm not paying my $100 per ticket to watch Javier ######' Vazquez given up 4 runs in 5 innings. If he wants an A for effort, he can go pitch for the ####### Pirates. They don't give you bonuses at banks if you lose money, they don't make you partner at law firms if you lose cases*, and they don't cheer you at Yankee Stadium if you give up 4 ####### runs to the ####### Angels in 5 ####### innings. Fair doesn't enter into the ####### equation.
EDIT to add: And I expect, and receive, the exact same treatment in my everyday life. I don't recall my professors here at school inquiring as to my effort before embarassing me in Socratic or giving me a shitty grade on an exam. Javier Vazquez has pitched like #### every time I've seen him. BOOO, BOO, ####### BOO.
*winning/losing cases really has nothing to do with it, but it's a useful rhetorical device, so work with me here.
My Dad also scolded me and my brother at a 1991 Yankees/Tigers doubleheader for making fun of both Cecil Fielder and STump Merrill for being really fat.
Rubbish, Filth, Slime!
I did, too, generally, but he irrationally picked on George Mitterwald for a couple of games back in the late 60's. Maybe that's why I don't boo or heckle. I was embarrassed by his behavior back then.
Welcome to 2010, Mr. van Winkle!
Residual World War II anger?
Presumably, they did that to make you a better whatever you are. Do you think your booing will make Vazquez a better pitcher? If your answer is "yes", then you've been educated beyond your intelligence. And, you're a spoiled child for booing, to boot. Poor guy, when you don't get the performance you think you're entitled to, you boo. You know how babies boo? They cry. And when they get older, if they don't grow up, they substitute booing for crying.
My dad was a corporal in the army during WWII, so that may be it, but I doubt it. He just thought he was being funny.
I'll have to check the terms of service, but I'm pretty sure the cost of a ticket doesn't entitle you to a crisply played victory.
EDIT to add: And I expect, and receive, the exact same treatment in my everyday life. I don't recall my professors here at school inquiring as to my effort before embarassing me in Socratic or giving me a shitty grade on an exam. Javier Vazquez has pitched like #### every time I've seen him. BOOO, BOO, ####### BOO.
I would like to be the first to offer you my commiserations for the size of your penis.
I think I'll try to draft a chorus of grad students to do this in my logic seminar...except they'd probably do it to the wrong students, ++++ing grads.
Now, booing is obviously a juvenile way to criticize people, but it's really the only method of communication until the day that fans get to have sit-down performance evaluations with the players.
My Dad also scolded me and my brother at a 1991 Yankees/Tigers doubleheader for making fun of both Cecil Fielder and STump Merrill for being really fat.
I'm completely with your dad on the first one -- but you're telling me that fat people shouldn't be mocked endlessly? Because that's not an America I want to live in.
Back on topic, I fully expect Home Run Javy to lower his 9ish ERA, but he's understandably not popular in the Bronx. Of course, a solid season/worthwhile playoff contribution would probably go a long way to forgiving that.
(Although I can't imagine anyone legitimately preferring Melky to him, and unlike the Braves fans here, I think Melky is a non-useless player)
In just about every job I've worked, criticism is generally given in a respectful and constructive way. There's a certain decorum that is expected.
The supervisors part is obviously not a concern. Managers and GMs are more than free to dress down players at any time. There's also the media to be considered--they certainly serve a scolding/corrective function. As for the fans, you can exactly get the same results from booing a player as you can by demanding store credit at the complaints desk.
I will jeer the opposition though.
*I would make an exception for people whose effort I question, but that's so hard to tell from the stands that I've not yet reached that conclusion
Nah, I bet your dad does. Right?
No harm in this, so long as you're not at another team's park.
Boooooooooooooooooo!
Seriously, Javy better turn this #### around. I hate it when the pigheaded ignoramuses are right.
Strictly speaking, the booers doesn't have to be classless AND ignorant, they are classless OR ignorant.
That being said I think Craig went over the top here. It's not like Vazquez was being booed for two disappointing outings, the guy was a key "contributor" to the biggest collapse in baseball history, was traded away for a guy who I think was viewed (unfairly) as a disappointment then was reaquired for a popular member of a championship team. It's not fair but I think it was predictable and not any different from just about any other team.
The classless is a definate, whether they are ignorant or not. So I would go with classless and probably ignorant.
When the sh*tty Phillies waltzed into Milwaukee and swept the defending NL champs on July 4th you're g*ddamned right I booed. With gusto.
When the 1962 METS(!!!) SWEPT the Braves in May you can be d*mn sure I booed. Vigorously. LOUDLY. They lost the first game by giving up four runs in the ninth inning for cr*ssakes. And then a SIX RUN inning in the second game. Jes&s. It was a nightmare.
Then there was the game in '80 maybe '81 where the despised White Sox waltzed into Miwaukee ruined my weekend by putting up 6 runs late. Made me want to puke as the relief corps of the Crew got HAMMERED.
And in 1983 when Milwaukee started Rick Waits(!!!) against the Orioles and he somehow flim-flammed them for six innings before they remembered that Rick Waits stunks and put up 100 runs over the least 3 innings ruining a lovely June day. I had told the boys after morning chores that 'Hey fellas, it's off to the ballgame for us!" The Mrs. put on a pretty sun dress and through six innings it a goshd*mn Norman Rockwell moment. And then KABOOM.
G*DDAMN RIGHT I booed them sumb*tches.
Nah, I bet your dad does. Right?
(a) Eat ####, Joe C.
(b) not all of us sit on our ass through school. Lucrative tutoring sideline = Yankees tickets.
I would like to be the first to offer you my commiserations for the size of your penis.
It's not a penis size thing, jerkoff. It's a money thing. Back when tickets were cheap and a baseball game was a good way to get a tan and have a few beers, if the team ###### up, then, ya know, #### it, its a nice day and its not about the winning anyways, right? But now the Yankees have decided to charge as much for the tickets as it costs to go to the Metropolitan Opera or a 3-start restaurant. If I was in Restaurant Daniel and the ####### lamb came out overcooked and dry, I wouldn't tell the waiter "oh, this is fine, don't worry about it, the chef tried hard." Well, the Yankees have priced themselves so that they're in that same bracket of things-which-are-expected-to-be-done-right. FROM FOUL POLE TO FOUL POLE, THE ENTIRE SECOND DECK AT YANKEE STADIUM IS $80 DAY OF GAME + $5 "FEE". $85. AND IN THE INFIELD ITS $100+, AND BEHIND HOME PLATE ITS $200+. TO SIT IN THE SECOND DECK. I THINK YOU PEOPLE FORGET HOW EXPENSIVE THIS HAS BECOME.
Javy Vazquez is going to ruin my game? BOOOOOOOOOOO.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Why "boo"? Why not "gah", or "meh" or "ree", or some other random stupid noise?
That reminds me of people who claim that ballet stars are "athletes" comparable to NBA players, without noting that ballet stars don't have other ballet stars trying to block their dance routines. Let me know when Restaurant Daniel's chefs have to deal with saboteurs from other restaurants turning down the temperature in the oven when the meal is halfway through.
FROM FOUL POLE TO FOUL POLE, THE ENTIRE SECOND DECK AT YANKEE STADIUM IS $80 DAY OF GAME + $5 "FEE". $85. TO SIT IN THE SECOND DECK. I THINK YOU PEOPLE FORGET HOW EXPENSIVE THIS HAS BECOME.
I've complained about ticket prices more than anyone here, but it's also true that the upper deck seats in Yankee Stadium are $25 between the foul lines and $20 beyond them. Of course the problem there is that they're almost impossible to obtain without either buying them as part of a season package or buying them from a scalper.
That depends on how you define upper deck. The "grandstand" is $30 day of game in the infield and $23 in the outfield (plus fees), but that's the upper-deck in name only; really the terrace + the grandstand combine to form the physical upperdeck...and the terrace is $60 in the outfield and $85 in the infield (plus fees).
So yes, you can sit in the back 10 rows of the upper deck at new Yankee Stadium for $35 if you look out the window and decide "hey, its a nice day, lets go to a ballgame." Mind you, you're farther from the game than you were in the equivalent seat in the old stadium, and much farther from the game than any seat in any other new stadium, but, yes, you can go.
5-3 is white-hot?
Let me know when Restaurant Daniel's chefs have to deal with saboteurs from other restaurants turning down the temperature in the oven when the meal is halfway through.
Are you pitching the food network's next reality show concept?
Don't you guys feel ridiculous booing other grown men who are wearing knickers?
Now that you mention it, I think it's fine to boo them for NOT wearing knickers like they're supposed to. They're all wearing freakin' pajamas these days.
You make a cogent point, sir.
Well, it's certainly different. In defense of the artists:
Ballet dancers have to be pitch-perfect every damn time for every second of every performance, not just the last 4 minutes. And even then if a shot is clanked or bricked the disappointment is intense, but no one remembers for very long, it is a TEAM sport. You have to reach a Starks-level of failure in a specific game for it to be remembered in basketball. For a professional dancer, mis-step once, it's a disaster. Twice, you're unemployed.
But, your penis is pretty small, right?
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