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Wednesday, April 04, 2012

Calcaterra: Police pull their guns on Torii Hunter … while he’s in his own home

It was reported here. I assume if Hunter was less than accurate in his tweets, there would be something contradicting it in the story.

Hunter later tweeted his thanks to the Newport Beach police, saying “they did a great job of protecting my home. Thanks guys!”

Man. I spent part of last weekend in Orange County, California. It is a pretty lily white place. You don’t suppose they would have done the same thing if, say, C.J. Wilson came out the door while the alarm was going off, do you?

Nah, never. Because as my conservative friends always tell me, there is no more racism in this country.

Thanks to Herm.

Repoz Posted: April 04, 2012 at 08:48 PM | 329 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Dale Sams Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:01 PM (#4097304)
Because as my conservative friends always tell me, there is no more racism in this country.


I have never heard anyone say that. But I do hear that particular obnoxious meme every time there is racism. It's worse than hearing "Where's the damn global warmin!!" every time it snows.
   2. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:03 PM (#4097306)


I have never heard anyone say that. But I do hear that particular obnoxious meme everytime there is racism. It's worse than hearing "Where's the damn global warmin!!" everytime it snows.


It's not quite as stupid as that, no.
   3. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:03 PM (#4097307)
Nah, never. Because as my conservative friends always tell me, there is no more racism in this country.


No, Craig's conservative friends don't tell him that.

That is not a "conservative" viewpoint.

Nobody serious claims there aren't individual racists.

   4. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:10 PM (#4097319)
Because as my conservative friends always tell me, there is no more racism in this country.

LOL. The unnamed conservative bogeyman, always lurking around the next corner.
   5. Dale Sams Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:19 PM (#4097321)
Maybe Torri should have had an 'Imposter Black Latino' stand in for him.
   6. Bruce Markusen Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:22 PM (#4097324)
Perhaps the police shouldn't have shown up at all, and simply ignored the alarm.
   7. DA Baracus Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:31 PM (#4097333)
Nah, never. Because as my conservative friends always tell me, there is no more racism in this country.


That's some might fine bait by Calcaterra.

Alarm goes off. Cops show up. Guy walks out of the house the alarm had gone off in. They didn't handcuff him, they didn't abuse him, they didn't shoot him on sight. Isn't this pretty much how we want the cops to react (except for the 20 minutes part)? Hunter even made it clear he wasn't pissed at the cops but appreciative of the manner in which they acted.
   8. formerly dp Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:38 PM (#4097340)
Where's the Admiral when we need him...?
   9. Matt Welch Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:39 PM (#4097341)
Santa Ana, the county seat of O.C., is totally Latino, BTW. Though Newport's pretty white.
   10. A triple short of the cycle Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:41 PM (#4097345)
Nobody serious claims there aren't individual racists.

Darn those few bad apples.
   11. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:51 PM (#4097354)
It's worse than hearing "Where's the damn global warmin!!" every time it snows.


To be fair, this phrase is merely mocking the absurd claims of the other side of single weather events being a result of global warming.
   12. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:55 PM (#4097360)
Alarm goes off. Cops show up. Guy walks out of the house the alarm had gone off in. They didn't handcuff him, they didn't abuse him, they didn't shoot him on sight. Isn't this pretty much how we want the cops to react (except for the 20 minutes part)? Hunter even made it clear he wasn't pissed at the cops but appreciative of the manner in which they acted.


Any law enforcement types here? What is protocol for this kind of thing? Are the cops allowed to have their guns out and pointed down for protection until they figure out who the guy is, i.e., whether the location is a threat?
   13. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:56 PM (#4097361)
Nah, never. Because as my conservative friends always tell me, there is no more racism in this country.


I'd love to meet a person that said this. I've heard many times people say racism is a tiny fraction what it was. But no one I know says it has been 100% eliminated. Liberals require a lot of hand holding don't they?
   14. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:57 PM (#4097364)

LOL. The unnamed conservative bogeyman, always lurking around the next corner.


I know. Give me some names. First and last. I bet the list is small, tiny in fact. Gotta love people that worry about a tiny segment of the population, say 1%, every day.
   15. DA Baracus Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:58 PM (#4097368)
Any law enforcement types here? What is protocol for this kind of thing? Are the cops allowed to have their guns out and pointed down for protection until they figure out who the guy is?


I'll grant the guns might be excessive. But this isn't close to the issue that Calcaterra is making it out to be. And when challenged on it in the comments, he just digs his heels in deeper.
   16. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 09:59 PM (#4097369)
Perhaps the police shouldn't have shown up at all, and simply ignored the alarm.


Now that would have been consistent with a black neighborhood. Which would have been a racist reaction in this case.
   17. asdf1234 Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:13 PM (#4097375)
There's more of Scalia's new police professionalism at work.

I'm far less interested in the race angle than I am the fact that multiple agents of the state drew lethal weapons for no particular reason and in the face of no particular threat. It's possible that Hunter mistook a taser for a handgun (claiming that he was marched at gunpoint and then clarifying that the barrels were pointed down makes him at least a bit questionable), but even then you have to question the blatant aggression and show of force by Officers Friendly. There's no reason to be drawing any weapon on a civilian unless there's a high probability of using it.
   18. zachtoma Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:14 PM (#4097377)
Nobody serious claims there aren't individual racists.


No they don't, but individual racists aren't the problem. I think bigoted individuals have effectively been shamed out of voicing their thoughts in the public sphere, and if they slip up, they become the subject of ridicule and derision. The bigot then serves as a sin eater for society at large - his presence allows us to say, "look, there's racism, over there, located in the body of the racist!" as Slavoj Zizek puts it. This allows us individually to feel good about ourselves for not being racists, while simultaneously ignoring structural inequalities that break down along racial lines.

I'm far less interested in the race angle than I am the fact that multiple agents of the state drew lethal weapons for no particular reason and in the face of no particular threat.


Yes, excessive use of force by police, and police impunity, have reached epidemic levels in this country.
   19. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:16 PM (#4097378)
Any law enforcement types here? What is protocol for this kind of thing? Are the cops allowed to have their guns out and pointed down for protection until they figure out who the guy is, i.e., whether the location is a threat?

Why wouldn't they have their guns out (but pointed down) for a possible burglary in progress? If you wait until you see the bad guy with a gun, it may be too late.
   20. zachtoma Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:18 PM (#4097380)
If you wait until you see the bad guy with a gun, it may be too late.


Or you see bad guys where there aren't any. Dead unarmed black men produced by police officers are hardly isolated occurrences.
   21. billyshears Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:21 PM (#4097383)
I've heard many times people say racism is a tiny fraction what it was. But no one I know says it has been 100% eliminated.


Exactly. Conservatives will admit to the theoretical existence of racism. But they've never actually found a real, live example of racism. Still, the search continues . . .
   22. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:23 PM (#4097387)
My wife has a friend who is extremely conservative and claims that we live in a "post racial world." I think that there is a strain of conservatism that aligns itself with this notion not least because if you believe it, it obviates policies that do have a generally positive impact like affirmative action and at the same time makes it plausible to claim that any number of racist policies and laws are not, in fact, racist.
   23. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:24 PM (#4097388)
I'll grant the guns might be excessive.


Why are the guns excessive? The cops carry guns right? Why is it excessive to pull out the gun? The guns were pointed to the ground not at the unidentified individual.

It is not accurate to claim the cops pointed guns at a homeowner inside that homeowner's house. The cops never did that. They encountered a person that was unidentified that was exiting a home with an alarm going off. The cops didn't know this was the home owner until the unidentified person (Tori) produced ID. At that point the cops holstered their guns.

Perhaps one of the cops thought the unidentified black man was Tori Hunter of the LA Angels. Perhaps that cop wasn't 100% certain, therefore he chose not to say "hey, it's Tori Hunter", for fear of being wrong and making a racist assumption that all black guys with apparent money are athletes.

I like to think the cops would have reacted the exact same way had this not been a "lily white" neighborhood, say like in South Central LA.
   24. MM1f Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:26 PM (#4097389)
Or you see bad guys where there aren't any. Dead unarmed black men produced by police officers are hardly isolated occurrences.


Sure, but isn't it reasonable for cops to assume that there is, in fact, a "bad guy" in a home with an alarm going off?
   25. DA Baracus Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:27 PM (#4097391)
Why are the guns excessive?


Because I'm not a cop and I don't know the procedure for this type of situation. If cops chime in and say that is not their protocol, I'll defer to them. I'm with you on everything else. If my house was being robbed and the cops reacted in this manner to the robber, I'd have no problem.
   26. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:27 PM (#4097392)

No they don't, but individual racists aren't the problem. I think bigoted individuals have effectively been shamed out of voicing their thoughts in the public sphere, and if they slip up, they become the subject of ridicule and derision.


I'll tell you who doesn't have a problem holding back or hiding their bigotry these days....the anti-evangelical Christian bigots. They aren't even bothering to hide their bigotry.
   27. booond Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:27 PM (#4097393)
He wasn't wearing a hoodie; no reason to shoot.
   28. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4097394)
Exactly. Conservatives will admit to the theoretical existence of racism. But they've never actually found a real, live example of racism. Still, the search continues . . .


For those who are slow: There are individual racists. Real, live ones. It is racism as an institution that no longer exists (in this country).
   29. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4097395)
I'll tell you who doesn't have a problem holding back or hiding their bigotry these days....the anti-evangelical Christian bigots. They aren't even bothering to hide their bigotry.


Are you talking about people who are bigoted against "evangelical Christians" or Christians who are bigots against evangelicals?
   30. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4097396)

Or you see bad guys where there aren't any. Dead unarmed black men produced by police officers are hardly isolated occurrences.


Liberals are terrible at math and the concept of frequency. Yea, unarmed black men are being killed by cops about as often as black gang member kill other black gang members.
   31. Bhaakon Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4097397)
Mostly, I'm surprised that the cops showed up for an alarm at a private residence. I thought the preponderance of false alarms had pretty much ended that practice as a waste of police resources.
   32. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4097398)
For those who are slow: There are individual racists. Real, live ones. It is racism as an institution that no longer exists (in this country).


Ray? Is that you underneath the white hood?
   33. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:31 PM (#4097399)
Or you see bad guys where there aren't any.


The irony of this statement is, Craig and liberals everywhere see bad guys where they don't exist all the time. This case is the perfect example. Tori Hunter didn't even object to the police response. Get a grip people. Nothing is stopping Tori from demanding an investigation (MR PRESIDENT).
   34. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:32 PM (#4097400)
Liberals are terrible at math and the concept of frequency. Yea, unarmed black men are being killed by cops about as often as black gang member kill other black gang members.


You're terrible at grammar and thinking in general. Will you lay off? You have the most bizarre notions about just about everything, and your general incoherence and frantic posting in threads like this are annoying, if not especially disturbing.
   35. NTNgod Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:35 PM (#4097402)
Hmm... looks like there were about ten burglar alarms the Newport Beach Police responded to today (all marked as unfounded), along with one actual burglary report.

There were about three going on at roughly the same time (based on Hunter's Twitter posts and timing, his probably was in that grouping), which may explain the 20 minute response time.

   36. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:36 PM (#4097403)
es, excessive use of force by police, and police impunity, have reached epidemic levels in this country.


Thanks for your input. I'd just as soon wait to learn what standard operating procedure is, as well as all the facts, before making a determination. They didn't know him personally, so it's not like they showed up and were like "Oh, Mr. Hunter, glad to see it's you."

It's easy for people like you to tell the cops they shouldn't be allowed to protect themselves when showing up to an alarm call without knowing who the person is that they find there or whether other people are on the premises that may pose a threat.

Is it reasonable to believe that the person they encounter may simply be the owner? Sure. Is it reasonable to believe that the person they encounter is sometimes not the owner? Sure. I mean, it's not like they just started firing away after encountering him.

   37. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:36 PM (#4097404)
Are you talking about people who are bigoted against "evangelical Christians" or Christians who are bigots against evangelicals?


You are obviously trying to suggest the bigotry is justified since you find the evangelical Christian categorically a bigot. Nice try. I used very clear language but I will expand.

Bigots against evangelicals. Which do include non evangelical Christians and others of course.
   38. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:37 PM (#4097405)
Exactly. Conservatives will admit to the theoretical existence of racism. But they've never actually found a real, live example of racism. Still, the search continues . . .
Well, there's Al Sharpton...
   39. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:41 PM (#4097406)
You're terrible at grammar and thinking in general. Will you lay off? You have the most bizarre notions about just about everything, and your general incoherence and frantic posting in threads like this are annoying, if not especially disturbing.


If it ain't the pot calling the kettle black.
   40. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:41 PM (#4097408)
I'll tell you who doesn't have a problem holding back or hiding their bigotry these days....the anti-evangelical Christian bigots.


And how about the insulting tone people take when discussing Scientology? Everyone just thinks it's a hoot to make jokes about Thetans and Auditing but Xemu forbid you mock the Magic Cracker What Becomes Meat, then you're a bigot.

Liberals are terrible at math and the concept of frequency.


Tell me about it, I hear they claim the earth is hundreds of thousands of years old, and maybe even older!
   41. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:43 PM (#4097409)
My home alarm has gone off a few times (usually goes off as in laws have fumbled the key fob buttons when trying to go in and out when we're out of town, one time while I was about a mile from home, the side door to the garage wasn't totally shut and wind caused it to open, setting the alarm off. My cell phone was called by alarm company, I didn't hear it, noticed a missed call, called back, they said cops were dispatched, I drove home entered through my rear gate as I was told which door was opened and saw open door, cop, who parked in front of my house (black man coincidentally) had sidearm out of holster at his side and told me to put 'em up in a firm voice. He then allowed me to identify myself, and retrieve my ID from pocket. This was totally the right move by the cop in my opinion. My neighborhood is $300k-$3M, and crime is not an issue.
   42. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:45 PM (#4097410)
Frankly, for 100 years of weather data to mean a thing, re: global warming, the left must believe the earth is 8,000 years old. I accused a liberal of this very assumption of a very young Earth. His head nearly blew up.
   43. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:47 PM (#4097414)
They didn't know him personally, so it's not like they showed up and were like "Oh, Mr. Hunter, glad to see it's you."

Calcaterra, in the comments, is arguing the police should have recognized Hunter on sight and/or known it was his address.
   44. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:50 PM (#4097418)
You are obviously trying to suggest the bigotry is justified since you find the evangelical Christian categorically a bigot. Nice try. I used very clear language but I will expand.


No, it was a real question. I didn't understand what you wrote because it was NOT clear. My question did not have the intent that you imputed to it. I had no ulterior motive than to try to understand what you said. I now understand, thanks to your clarification. I agree that there is bigotry against evangelical Christians. I do not think evangelical Christians are "categorically ... bigot[s]." I happen to think that they're categorically deluded, but that's a discussion for another day.

If it ain't the pot calling the kettle black.


No, it's not. What I did in my post was point out what is obvious and what I and numerous others have pointed out since you started with the bizarro anti-liberal/anti-progressive strain here. You are seriously deluded if you think your rants against liberals and progressives make sense.
   45. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:51 PM (#4097420)
Calcaterra, in the comments, is arguing the police should have recognized Hunter on sight and/or known it was his address.


Has he named his unnamed "conservative friends" yet? The ones who always tell him there is no more racism in this country? Or does the search continue?
   46. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:53 PM (#4097422)
Frankly, for 100 years of weather data to mean a thing, re: global warming, the left must believe the earth is 8,000 years old. I accused a liberal of this very assumption of a very young Earth. His head nearly blew up.


As it rightly should because no one is using 100 years of weather data to prove the existence of global warming. Is that what you actually think? Do you really think climate scientists are using just 100 years of weather data?
   47. shattnering his Dominicano G Strings on that Mound Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:53 PM (#4097423)
   48. NTNgod Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:54 PM (#4097426)
FWIW, ESPN has an article up as well.
   49. Morty Causa Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:56 PM (#4097427)
This place has become one pee-pee soaked heckhole.
   50. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: April 04, 2012 at 10:57 PM (#4097429)
And then I say something political.
   51. Dale Sams Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:06 PM (#4097436)
I thought the preponderance of false alarms had pretty much ended that practice as a waste of police resources.


Maybe they didn't know Torii Hunter was black.

Chief Wiggums: "Check this guy out boys, he says he's Torri Hunter!"
Lou: "Yeah, and I'm Reggie Cleveland!"
   52. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:08 PM (#4097439)
Has he named his unnamed "conservative friends" yet? The ones who always tell him there is no more racism in this country? Or does the search continue?


Will it finally convince you if he names names? I don't get what you're after here. As I pointed out above, there are many ways for conservatives to say effectively that racism doesn't exist, even as they're being racist. As I argued above, I think there's a strong strain of conservative politics that aligns itself with the notion of a post-racial world so that it can make laws and policies that are racist. People are very good at "softening" the appearance of racism, cloaking it in other terms and notions.
   53. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:08 PM (#4097440)
There's totally racism in this country. Against white people.

Also, high quality trolling by LotS. I'm impressed.
   54. tshipman Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:11 PM (#4097443)
I liked Josh Barro's article on racism in Forbes, I think it captures a lot of what I think about race in the conservative movement.
Conservatives, almost universally, feel like they get a bad rap on race. They catch heat when they point out improvements over the last several decades in race relations and in the material well being of minorities in America, even though those phenomena are real. They catch heat when they contend that government programs intended to help the poor have led to problems with dependency in minority communities, even though those critiques are sometimes correct. They catch heat when they criticize Affirmative Action, even when in some cases (as at the University of California) Affirmative Action was clearly disserving minority communities.

Why do conservatives catch such heat? It’s probably because there is still so much racism on the Right to go alongside valid arguments on issues relating to race and ethnicity. Conservatives so often get unfairly pounded on race because, so often, conservatives get fairly pounded on race.

And this is the Right’s own fault, because conservatives are not serious about draining the swamp.

...

There has been a clear strategic calculation here among Republican elites. Better to leverage or at least accept the racism of much of the Republican base than try to clean it up. I remember a moment in the 2008 campaign where John McCain argued with a voter who said that Obama was “an Arab.” This time around, either the candidates don’t care about standing up to racial misconceptions or have decided they can’t afford to.

Newt Gingrich, for instance, acts and says racist things.
   55. billyshears Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:11 PM (#4097444)
For those who are slow: There are individual racists. Real, live ones. It is racism as an institution that no longer exists (in this country).


Awesome. Do we all get a cookie for the elimination of the systemic institutionalized discrimination against black people that existed for 300 years?

Also, you're arguing against a strawman. I never argued that institutional racism still exists. Next . . .
   56. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:17 PM (#4097446)
As it rightly should because no one is using 100 years of weather data to prove the existence of global warming. Is that what you actually think? Do you really think climate scientists are using just 100 years of weather data?


Yes and no. They can't possibly use just 100 years, it would be a complete joke if they did, even though that is roughly all we have. In fact we really only have 30-40 years of good data, from satellites. They are using data such as ice core samples, which have their own set of weaknesses when trying to analyze this subject matter.

The fact is, the weather data doesn't exist to make a definitive claim one way or the other. So a lot of alternate sources of data have been brought forth which have dubious application in our quest for understanding man's impact on climate.
   57. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:18 PM (#4097447)
Wait! Torii Hunter is a guy?!
   58. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:19 PM (#4097449)
As I argued above, I think there's a strong strain of conservative politics that aligns itself with the notion of a post-racial world so that it can make laws and policies that are racist. People are very good at "softening" the appearance of racism, cloaking it in other terms and notions.


Examples of these laws and policies that are racist? Many of us are still waiting on your proof. You claim to have some. Share.
   59. Dale Sams Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:19 PM (#4097450)
As I say, "The conservatives often get it right...for the wrong reasons."

In 2012, I can count on every single county in my state voting for Romney. It's because Obama has trampled on the Constitution, right? Signed NDAA? Has bombed several countries? Executed Americans without due process? Targeted women and children at funerals?

"Cuz he's a Socialist!"
"(sigh)"
   60. A triple short of the cycle Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:24 PM (#4097456)
We can all drink from the same water fountain now, but institutional racism persists. Drug sentencing laws, loan redlining, ward connerly and anti-affirmative action at U California, voter registration.
   61. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:24 PM (#4097457)
I use global warming as my litmus test for whether people pimping the "consensus" are stupid/unthinking/dishonest/hopelessly biased.

Seeing how "the science" gets "settled" is quite revealing.
   62. Zipperholes Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:29 PM (#4097459)
Maybe Torri should have had an 'Imposter Black Latino' stand in for him.
Awesome.
   63. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:31 PM (#4097460)
So, we're having another global warming thing? Ok...

It is not the case that we have only 100-150 years of data from which to draw the conclusion that (a) global warming is occurring and (b) it is significantly caused by human activity. Data from coral growth, tree rings, stalagmite sedimentation, and other sources shows that this is the warmest period of the last 1000 years.

We know from multiple sources that it is currently hotter than it's been in the last 1000 years, and the last 50-100 years have seen a major spike in warmth compared to the previous 1000. We know from the ice core data that climate spikes of this sort have only ever happened previously due to orbital forcing - the slight oddities inherent in elliptic orbits which produce ice ages. We are not currently at a place in the orbital cycle where this should happen - they're incredibly regular, occuring about every 100,000 years, and the last one was less than 20,000 years ago. This warming requires other explanations than natural cycles.

Luckily, we have a really good explanation. There is a clear micro explanation as to how CO2 produces global warming (the greenhouse effect), and the ice core data shows obvious correlation between CO2 and global temperature. The ice core data confirmed beautifully what the theories said - it's a great example of a theory being tested by the acquisition of new data, and performing about as well as could be expected. CO2 isn't the only driving factor - warming trends before humans started spewing CO2 into the atmosphere were usually spurred by orbital forcing and then CO2 feedback loops continued the warming - but it has been shown both explanatory theories and by retrospective data to affect climate change in significant ways.

We also know, from the ice core data, that atmospheric CO2 levels are nearly twice as high as they've been at any time in the past 400,000 years, and that this spike occured in the last 100-200 years, as a function of the industrialization of human society. We have a warming trend which does not fit historical "natural" explanations, we have ice core data confirming a theory about CO2's forcing effect on climate change, and we have a spike in atmospheric CO2 unprecedented in hundreds of thousands of years, clearly caused by human activity.

This is the case of anthropogenic global warming, and it is highly compelling - the scientific consensus is based on how well this all holds together. We need to significantly slow the rate at which we're expelling carbon into the atmosphere if we're going to stem this warming trend.
   64. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:32 PM (#4097462)
Drug sentencing laws, loan redlining, ward connerly and anti-affirmative action at U California, voter registration.


I don't see it. Sure blacks as a percentage are sent to prison at a higher rate than whites for drugs, but that's because they are caught more. The sentencing law is pretty clear and race isn't a factor. Pretty much the same deal with home loan apps....black probably get financed at a lower rate than whites, but that's because they are more likely to have worse credit and weaker debt/income rates. Are these things racist? Or are blacks merely more likely to be below middle class?

   65. Dale Sams Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:34 PM (#4097463)
All I got to say is, when the midwest becomes uninhabitable, y'all best develop a hankerin for fish.

The good news is you'll get your third team in NYC, maybe a second in Boston and a team in Portland.
   66. PerroX Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:38 PM (#4097464)
This is the case of anthropogenic global warming, and it is highly compelling - the scientific consensus is based on how well this all holds together. We need to significantly slow the rate at which we're expelling carbon into the atmosphere if we're going to stem this warming trend.


Even though I agree with your premises 99 percent, that's an awfully big "we".
   67. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:39 PM (#4097467)
I use global warming as my litmus test for whether people pimping the "consensus" are stupid/unthinking/dishonest/hopelessly biased.


Which 'consensus" is that? You'll probably never believe this, but the other side uses it in exactly the same way. It doesn't make you any smarter, more honest, or less biased to do that. But whatever, you'll keep doing it anyway.

Examples of these laws and policies that are racist? Many of us are still waiting on your proof. You claim to have some. Share.


I didn't claim to have proof. But some policies that are specifically designed to be racist and not look like they're being racist are 1) racial profiling at American airports; 2) Arizona's immigration law; 3) restrictive voter ID laws. These are all laws that disproportionately affect non-whites, and poor non-whites the most. I think that is a fact that even you can agree with. I can agree that they also affect some whites. This is exactly what I mean: here are some laws that affects both whites and non-whites, but they were designed specifically to target a minority population. There are "other" justifications for these laws, sure. But I happen to think that the primary motivation for any of these laws is just to make it difficult to be a minority in this country.
   68. zachtoma Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:43 PM (#4097469)
Sure blacks as a percentage are sent to prison at a higher rate than whites for drugs, but that's because they are caught more


Uh, and why is that? It's not because drug use is more prevalent in black communities. Not according to the latest National Survey on Drug Use and Health which found drug use and abuse more prevalent among whites. You're hand-waving away an awful lot there.
   69. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:49 PM (#4097473)
Very weak case for man causing global warming. Let me point out a few flaws (or blow up your already tattered case)


1) If this is the warmest period in the last 1000 years, then what caused Earth to be warmer 1000 years ago? (1,000 years? so what, you do know the Earth ain't 8,000 years old, right? The bible was wrong on that you know? Right?)

2) No, we don't know what caused the ice age(s). Perhaps "orbital forcing" is a factor but that's unknown, including various other theories. Also, you sell this idea that ice ages are predictable, they are not. We know there has been a larger climate cycle looking backwards, but we don't know what's driving that or when it will change again.

3) "The ice core data confirmed beautifully what the theories said" - What theories? And what was confirmed? I think you meant to say, the ice core data also showed a correlation with CO2 and Temps.

4) Why was CO2 higher in (thousands) years past? CO2 today is not at an all time high.

5) Yes, CO2 has been proven to contribute to a "greenhouse effect" in experiments, but the real question is, how much does it contribute to changes? How can you isolate its contribution or even know where to start? Is the contribution 1%, 100% or just 5-8%? Or 50%?

The real answer is in the single digits. Which is a non-significant factor.
   70. Dan The Mediocre Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:49 PM (#4097475)
Examples of these laws and policies that are racist? Many of us are still waiting on your proof. You claim to have some. Share.


Penalties for one hit of cocaine vs. one hit of crack is a very easy one.
   71. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:52 PM (#4097478)
#68, see #30
   72. billyshears Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:52 PM (#4097479)
I use the fact that "belief" in global warming is divided along party lines as evidence as to how intellectually bankrupt our political discourse has become. Of course, there is disagreement as to which side this reflects badly on.
   73. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:54 PM (#4097482)

Uh, and why is that? It's not because drug use is more prevalent in black communities. Not according to the latest National Survey on Drug Use and Health which found drug use and abuse more prevalent among whites. You're hand-waving away an awful lot there.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Do you have an issue with my highlighted comment you took from #64?
   74. A triple short of the cycle Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:54 PM (#4097483)
I use global warming as my litmus test for whether people pimping the "consensus" are stupid/unthinking/dishonest/hopelessly biased.

The scientific consensus around global climate change is expressed by the IPCC - the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
   75. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:54 PM (#4097484)
Lion of the Senate is my favorite troll ever! Brilliant!

But really, you don't have anything better to do?
   76. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:56 PM (#4097485)
The real answer is in the single digits. Which is a non-significant factor.


I just don't get what conservatives get out of claiming that global warming does not exist. I mean, what's the payoff? If it does exist and you're wrong, and it has all of the bad consequences that scientists say it will have, then you've just ###### over generation and generations of people. And the consequences of lowering greenhouse gas emissions will be, what, exactly? You'll probably have to use CF bulbs, and buy stuff locally, and try not to drive your car so much, and not to use so much electricity. Is this bad?

I get why conservatives are so bound to saving money. But mitigating global warming is an enormous FINANCIAL opportunity as Toyota and others are proving. Reducing reliance on fossil fuels will probably have the unintended side effect of making certain elements in the middle-East and other places around the globe less pissed off at us, and less desirous of bombing us.

What do you get out of keeping things status quo? Have you ever thought about that?

   77. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:56 PM (#4097486)
We can all drink from the same water fountain now, but institutional racism persists. Drug sentencing laws, loan redlining, ward connerly and anti-affirmative action at U California,
Awesome. Non-discrimination is actually "institutional racism."
   78. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:57 PM (#4097487)
The scientific consensus around global climate change is expressed by the IPCC - the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.


There's also the "consensus" among conservatives that it's a bunch of hogwash. What Ray doesn't seem to realize is that using global warming as a "litmus test" only indicates what kind of meat you prefer: red or blue.
   79. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:59 PM (#4097489)
Penalties for one hit of cocaine vs. one hit of crack is a very easy one.


Many, if not most federal sentencing guidelines on drugs were set just after Len Bias died. I believe Dems led by Tip O'Neill drove that legislation, although the laws were overwhelmingly passed by large majorities. Where does this fit into the conservative is a racist in hiding? The laws were largely written by Dems trying to prevent the next Treyvo....I mean Len Bias.
   80. A triple short of the cycle Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:59 PM (#4097490)
Awesome. Non-discrimination is actually "institutional racism."
Yes I would say an institutional policy of anti-affirmative action is institutional racism. It's not awesome thought.
   81. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:59 PM (#4097491)
Awesome. Non-discrimination is actually "institutional racism."


Can you explain this? I don't follow.
   82. billyshears Posted: April 04, 2012 at 11:59 PM (#4097492)
I just don't get what conservatives get out of claiming that global warming does not exist.


If it exists, the government has to regulate business to prevent a global catastrophe. Conservatives don't like government regulation of business.
   83. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:05 AM (#4097495)
1) racial profiling at American airports; 2) Arizona's immigration law; 3) restrictive voter ID laws. These are all laws that [...] were designed specifically to target a minority population.

I thought the TSA goes out of its way to show #1 doesn't happen (i.e., patting down 2-year-old white girls and 95-year-old Catholic nuns).

#2 clearly seemed to target illegal immigrants, the population of which spiked a staggering 400-plus percent in a decade in Arizona.

#3 seems like legislative chest-thumping more than anything else. I don't believe that huge numbers of Americans lack a proper ID, and, for the ones who do lack ID, all of these state laws provide a photo ID free for the asking.
   84. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:07 AM (#4097496)
If it exists, the government has to regulate business to prevent a global catastrophe. Conservatives don't like government regulation of business.


That still doesn't answer my question. What do they get out of it? I don't think it comes down to regulation. I think it goes deeper than that. I think there's more than a bit of anti-intellectualism in it, coupled with a fierce and misguided libertarian streak. But there's also a very deep vein of eschatology. There are a few documentaries out about how many prominent Republicans wish for peace in the middle east so that a prophecy from Revelations can take place bringing about the end of the world. That's my guess. But I'd like to hear it from a real true-red conservative.
   85. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:07 AM (#4097497)
Mostly, I'm surprised that the cops showed up for an alarm at a private residence. I thought the preponderance of false alarms had pretty much ended that practice as a waste of police resources.


Their is zero crime in Newport Coast. It is a master planned community of ~$1.5 - $3 million tract homes and a large number of semi-custom and custom homes. There are also a handful of $10+ million "estates". The police show up for everything, but they bill residents/businesses hundreds of dollars for false alarms.
   86. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:07 AM (#4097498)

I just don't get what conservatives get out of claiming that global warming does not exist. I mean, what's the payoff?


In #69 I claimed global warming does exist. Just not to your satisfaction. Speaking of why risk it.....have you done the math on what's required to not only stop CO2 levels but dial them back to 90s levels as suggested by the IPCC? That would be a crushing blow to the developing world, China, Brazil, India, African nations, etc. The US could fall off the face of the Earth tomorrow, but the nations I just named are growing so rapidly, they would replace our CO2 contributions in less than 10 years.

Do the math, see what is actually required to save Earth, according to the IPCC and then decide how likely this is going to happen. FYI: the solution they are demanding isn't merely driving a Prius to Starbucks and bringing my ceramic mug.
   87. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:07 AM (#4097500)
the government has to regulate business to prevent a global catastrophe


this is my problem with the issue, the sun and the universe will decide whether there is going to be a global catastrophe. Man will have no say in the matter.
   88. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:08 AM (#4097502)
I thought the TSA goes out of its way to show #1 doesn't happen (i.e., patting down 2-year-old white girls and 95-year-old Catholic nuns). #2 clearly seemed to target illegal immigrants, the population of which spiked a staggering 400-plus percent in a decade. #3 seems like legislative chest-thumping more than anything else; I simply don't buy that huge numbers of Americans lack a proper ID, and, for the ones who do lack ID, all of these state laws provide a photo ID free for the asking.


You must be right then.
   89. Spahn Insane Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:08 AM (#4097503)
Also, high quality trolling by LotS. I'm impressed.

He hasn't changed a bit since his prior handle.
   90. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:09 AM (#4097504)
this is my problem with the issue, the sun and the universe will decide whether there is going to be a global catastrophe. Man will have no say in the matter.


You are aware that man is part of the universe? You've heard of systems? When you put something into a system, you get something out? The earth is one such system. Put too much CO2 into the atmosphere and you WILL get some output, some change or alteration in the system. This is very basic science.
   91. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:10 AM (#4097505)

What do you get out of keeping things status quo? Have you ever thought about that?


Why do you assume I'm status quo? I'm not. Just because I'm opposed to your "solution" of dialing us all back 200 years. I want to move forward, not backwards. I'm as radical on technological progress as anyone.
   92. A triple short of the cycle Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:11 AM (#4097506)
Conservatives don't like government regulation of business.

Underlying reason being, compliance costs money. It is a lot cheaper to produce something if you don't have to worry about environmental and labor regulations. No limitations on working conditions, no work plans, no permits, no disposal fees, no monitoring, no reporting, no accountability except to stockholders, ... no oversight, no limits.

Fortunately, the invisible hand will make it all work out in the end
   93. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:12 AM (#4097507)
In #69 I claimed global warming does exist. Just not to your satisfaction. Speaking of why risk it.....have you done the math on what's required to not only stop CO2 levels but dial them back to 90s levels as suggested by the IPCC? That would be a crushing blow to the developing world, China, Brazil, India, African nations, etc. The US could fall off the face of the Earth tomorrow, but the nations I just named are growing so rapidly, they would replace our CO2 contributions in less than 10 years.

Do the math, see what is actually required to save Earth, according to the IPCC and then decide how likely this is going to happen. FYI: the solution they are demanding isn't merely driving a Prius to Starbucks and bringing my ceramic mug.


Let's say for a moment that they're right and that the changes required are extreme. What do you get out of denying that it's as dire as scientists say it is? What do you get out of not changing your behaviors?
   94. A triple short of the cycle Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:13 AM (#4097508)
Hey Lion, get a bike!
   95. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:14 AM (#4097509)
He hasn't changed a bit since his prior handle.

Except now LotS is pretending to be a woman. Which is always a fun troll maneuver.
   96. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:17 AM (#4097510)
There are a few documentaries out about how many prominent Republicans wish for peace in the middle east so that a prophecy from Revelations can take place bringing about the end of the world. That's my guess. But I'd like to hear it from a real true-red conservative.


How many conservative friends do you have? Sure, like you I consume media from time to time, but tell me you aren't getting your exposure to conservatives only from the media. Seems like you are pedaling the extreme caricature of conservatives only.
   97. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:20 AM (#4097513)
Do the math, see what is actually required to save Earth, according to the IPCC and then decide how likely this is going to happen. FYI: the solution they are demanding isn't merely driving a Prius to Starbucks and bringing my ceramic mug.

LOL. Awesome.

***

That still doesn't answer my question. What do they get out of it? I don't think it comes down to regulation. I think it goes deeper than that. I think there's more than a bit of anti-intellectualism in it, coupled with a fierce and misguided libertarian streak.

No, it's exactly what I just quoted above. Right-wingers admittedly tend to be skeptical about global warming, but even if it's a scientific fact, the proposed cure might be worse than the illness.
   98. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:22 AM (#4097514)
Maybe the cops were Angels fans and thought he was Vernon Wells.

As for global warming, right now we have around 33 years worth of satellite data, and it looks like around +0.13 Celsius per decade so far in that time period. Because arguments over the satellite data have all seemed to be hashed out and finally agreed on, that seems to be a pretty factual gauge of temperatures over that period of time (global average temperature is not the easiest thing to compute).

I'd rather we let folks who know something about it examine what that does and doesn't mean than to have the left and right use it as a cudgel with which to beat the other side.

Satellite Temp Data

The above is the extent of my knowledge on the subject, so I've decided to not postulate any further on which side is more ignorant, because I know for a fact that I certainly am on the subject.
   99. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:22 AM (#4097515)
Hey Lion, get a bike!


You know, my carbon footprint is almost certainly smaller than average. I rarely turn the heat on living in the north, I have only had one real x-mas tree with lights (about the most carbon useless item - for those of you that think CO2 is bad---which I don't since plants require it to make "green"). I brew my own coffee 80% of the time. I clean my plate!
   100. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 05, 2012 at 12:22 AM (#4097516)
If it ain't the pot calling the kettle black.

Why is it we never see the same level of outrage for pot-on-kettle crime?
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