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Wednesday, September 29, 2010

Calcaterra: So who’s the Hall of Fame ‘roider Tom Boswell mentioned last night?

Game Day: Partial Sports Writings.

But back to Boswell.  I recently spouted off about making evidence-free accusations of PED-use, and I stand by such spouting. But in this case, Boswell has apparently been sitting on evidence of a Hall of Famer using what Boswell believed to be PEDs for over 20 years.

I know that Boswell reported as early as 1988 that Jose Canseco used steroids—and his reports were basically ignored by all but a handful of booing fans that fall—but why haven’t we heard anything about this Hall of Fame player before now? Given all that has transpired in the past decade, wouldn’t information about a Hall of Famer’s PED use have been extremely relevant to the national discussion? I’m not saying Boswell just tell the mikshake story and leave it at that, but why not interview the player about it? Why not do some more reporting on it? Why wasn’t this out there before last night?

I won’t accept “what happens in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse” as an answer here. Because if what everyone who goes on about steroids says is true, they damn nigh destroyed the national pastime. In such an instance a reporter seems more than justified—indeed, he seems obligated—to followup on what he saw in the clubhouse and get the story out there. If not in 1988, then certainly by 2002 when the steroid story broke big.

But that didn’t happen. What has happened, if what Boswell says is true, is that a PED user was elected to the Hall of Fame by baseball writers who currently believe that the world will end if a PED user is elected to the Hall of Fame. Mr. Milkshake has a plaque in Cooperstown, but because of the perceived need to keep the Hall of Fame pure, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and Mark McGwire won’t get one anytime soon.

Repoz Posted: September 29, 2010 at 01:36 PM | 121 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, history, special topics, steroids, television

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   1. Esoteric Posted: September 29, 2010 at 01:53 PM (#3651055)
This shouldn't be too hard. Who are the players Boswell has covered regularly who have gone to the HoF, who had a late-career home run spike? Cal Ripken?
   2. AndrewJ Posted: September 29, 2010 at 01:53 PM (#3651057)
Rickey?
   3. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:05 PM (#3651065)
I'm pretty damned sure that a PED user has already been elected to the Hall of Fame by baseball writers who currently believe that the world will end if a PED user is elected to the Hall of Fame even if what Boswell says about this particular Mr. Milkshake isn't true.

EDIT: and I'm not just talking about greenies, either.
   4. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:09 PM (#3651067)
This shouldn't be too hard. Who are the players Boswell has covered regularly who have gone to the HoF, who had a late-career home run spike? Cal Ripken?

Maybe Cal was using the free six month promotional offer supply in 1999, and then was too cheap to take it beyond that. Given his otherwise anemic batting production for the last ten years of career, he could have used Geritol more than steroids.
   5. Win one for Agrippa (haplo53) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:12 PM (#3651069)
I read this headline quickly and wondered why Tom Bosley was talking about steroids.
   6. YR Denies Jesus Montero Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:14 PM (#3651071)
Kirby Puckett had a pretty big head.
   7. winnipegwhip Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:16 PM (#3651072)
I would like to know if Boswell voted for this individual?
   8. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:16 PM (#3651073)
Mule Suttles?

the clues Boswell gave to the player's identity -- a guy who (a) is already in the Hall of Fame; and (b) who hit more home runs after Jose Canseco arrived in the league than he ever had before

Hitter inductees from the appropriate time window:
Reggie Jackson
Mike Schmidt
George Brett
Robin Yount
Carlton Fisk
Kirby Puckett
Dave Winfield
Ozzie Smith
Gary Carter
Eddie Murray
Paul Molitor
Wade Boggs
Ryne Sandberg
Cal Ripken
Tony Gwynn
Rickey Henderson

The guys with the biggest HR jumps on that list are Puckett, Sandberg, and Wade Boggs (1 season only). Rickey Henderson's HR history is too erratic to call it a match. Cal Ripken may be the go-to suspect since Boswell's been in Washington for the last 90 years, but Ripken's one stickout HR season (34) doesn't stick out that much; he had seven other 25-HR seasons.
   9. bunyon Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:17 PM (#3651074)
The evidence here isn't exactly bloody syringe level. I mean, it sounds more like a protein shake. Canseco was certainly a roider but he was also a general training nut. It could even sound like a joke.

But, yeah, I'm sure someone is in the Hall who took steroids. Maybe several someones. And they'd be nutso to admit it.
   10. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:18 PM (#3651077)
Also, I'm thinking that Boswell has had a HOF vote for twenty years or longer by now. Did ol' Tom say whether he personally voted for milkshake man?
   11. winnipegwhip Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:19 PM (#3651080)
This article is devastating.
   12. bunyon Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:20 PM (#3651082)
Gonfalon, why must it be a one-time usage? It seems to me if we're going to accuse someone there is no reason to accept that they only did it once. I can well imagine Cal was clean. But when I imagine him using, I imagine them being a central part of his training regimen. They have benefits so why would someone using and getting away with it stop?


Also, why must erratic HR numbers indicate no usage. PEDs may increase overall HR numbers but they certainly aren't going to stabilize them.
   13. AndrewJ Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:21 PM (#3651084)
I read this headline quickly and wondered why Tom Bosley was talking about steroids.

My money's on Ralph Malph.
   14. Juan V Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:22 PM (#3651085)
Pud Galvin? :-p
   15. Bob Dernier Cri Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:22 PM (#3651086)
Maybe this is one of those trick questions and it's actually George Halas or Dave DeBusschere.
   16. Van Lingle Mungo Jerry Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:23 PM (#3651087)
Which hitter from Gonfalon's list would give you the most schadenfreude if outed as the steroid user? Which would pain you the most? I'm going with Ripken and Schmidt.
   17. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:23 PM (#3651088)
The evidence here isn't exactly bloody syringe level. I mean, it sounds more like a protein shake

agreed--oral anabolics were not that common nor that popular--for many reasons. It could have been a protein shake supplemented with DHEA or andro, both of which were perfectly legal

EDIT: or creatine
   18. AndrewJ Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:27 PM (#3651093)
Maybe this is one of those trick questions and it's actually George Halas or Dave DeBusschere.

Well played, sir.
   19. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:30 PM (#3651096)
I'm going with Ripken and Schmidt.


Why Schmidt? He's been fairly non-judgemental about the shole steroids thing and modern players and he's never struck me as a guy who put himself on a pedsetal. As for Boswell's mystery man, I'd bet a decent sum of money it's Kirby Puckett.
   20. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:34 PM (#3651099)
Schadenfreude -- I don't have great enmity towards any of these guys, but it would be pretty funny if it was Ozzie Smith. Jackson and Carter were both ##########, so maybe them.

Pain -- Boggs, Fisk, Schmidt.
   21. bunyon Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:34 PM (#3651100)
Which hitter from Gonfalon's list would give you the most schadenfreude if outed as the steroid user?

Reggie Jackson --- I think this would enhance his rep for me. Bad ass who does what he likes.
Mike Schmidt --- I'd be torn. Such a great player but given his preachiness since retiring could be amusing.
George Brett --- would bother me.
Robin Yount --- ditto
Carlton Fisk --- wouldn't really be surprised at all. How did he last so long?
Kirby Puckett --- steroids would sort of be a minor character flaw for him
Dave Winfield --- no feelings one way or the other
Ozzie Smith --- would be fun to start using backflip ability as PED gauge
Gary Carter --- ha ha! stupid Met.
Eddie Murray --- again, no real feelings
Paul Molitor --- Novel steroid excuse: "I thought that was heroin in the syringe!"
Wade Boggs --- Chicken stanazolol
Ryne Sandberg --- Come on, doesn't anybody understand why Ryno is so against PEDs?
Cal Ripken --- I'm not a huge Cal fan, but this one would bug me. I did really enjoy watching the night he broke the record.
Tony Gwynn --- proof that PEDs don't increase HR without concommitant training
Rickey Henderson --- this would probably bother me, too. It's nice to think that a leadoff HR guy wouldn't also be a juicer. Also, wouldn't surprise me.
   22. bunyon Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:38 PM (#3651103)
As for Boswell's mystery man, I'd bet a decent sum of money it's Kirby Puckett.

This could also explain a lack of followup at this point. No one wants to dig around in and then crap on a dead guy, no matter what the violation.
   23. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:43 PM (#3651108)
Well, if the delivery vehicle were milkshakes, wouldn't the side effects have made Gwynn or Puckett the obvious choices?
   24. JJ1986 Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:44 PM (#3651110)
I hope it's Sandberg.
   25. Mayor Blomberg Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:45 PM (#3651112)
Rickey Henderson's HR history is too erratic to call it a match.

that's the beauty of it; he used to maintain his speed and no one noticed. :)
   26. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:46 PM (#3651113)
Re: #12-- I'm just going by the shaky criteria: a guy who hit notably more HRs post-Canseco than he had before. Canseco debuted in September 1985. I'm interpreting Boswell's claim as a "power surge" thing and not a career accumulation thing, despite the fact that Ozzie Smith hit more than half of his 28 home runs in The Canseco Era, and Tony Gwynn's slugging numbers are even more lopsided.

I wouldn't be stunned senseless to learn that Rickey Henderson ever used steroids... but I'm not sure Canseco deserves total credit for Rickey's massive leap in homers from 24 to 28.

A dark horse candidate: Dennis Eckersley, who suddenly and suspiciously crushed 67% of his career homers... in 1986. DUM dum dum dummmm!!!
   27. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:50 PM (#3651121)
I would say than Nolan Ryan would absolutely and without question be the most hilarious possible candidate, if it weren't for the fact that Jim Rice played into the steroid era.

Wait, are there criteria I'm missing? I would be so sad if it couldn't be Nolan Ryan or Jim Rice. I didn't see the interview.
   28. Jose Can You Seabiscuit Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:51 PM (#3651123)
Schadenfreude - Sandberg

Pain - Boggs, just because he is my favorite player on the list

Interest - Ozzie, Gwynn - I like both players but I think it would be fun to see the two guys who probably least meet the narrative about what a steroid user is to be "outed."
   29. Dag Nabbit apealing [sic] his own check swing Posted: September 29, 2010 at 02:58 PM (#3651131)
"The Tenth Inning" spends a bunch of time on the Jim Leyritz game of the 1996 World Series, I'm probably going to delete it from my DVR before I have a chance to watch it this weekend.

Then you should live in Chicagoland because WTTW's broadcast feed completely conked out when Leyritz stepped to the plate and didn't turn return until the Yankees dogpiled to celebrate winning the '96 Series.
   30. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:00 PM (#3651136)
Who the hell takes steroids via a milkshake?

This is the biggest load of crap since Tommy Lasorda.
   31. SoSH U at work Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:01 PM (#3651137)
the clues Boswell gave to the player's identity -- a guy who (a) is already in the Hall of Fame; and (b) who hit more home runs after Jose Canseco arrived in the league than he ever had before


Dennis Eckersley.

Edit: Dammit, didn't see Gonfalon's post.
   32. Van Lingle Mungo Jerry Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:03 PM (#3651139)
Why Schmidt? He's been fairly non-judgmental about the whole steroids thing and modern players and he's never struck me as a guy who put himself on a pedestal.


I meant Schmidt would be the one who would cause me the most pain if outed as a user. I've always admired the way he persevered above the abuse he took early in his career and worked hard to make himself a better player (particularly on defense) even after becoming a star.
   33. Craig Calcaterra Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:03 PM (#3651140)
lar at Wezen-Ball has a post up trying to narrow down the suspects:
   34. Bob Tufts Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:04 PM (#3651142)
Maybe the user wasn't a player - it was a fellow sportswriter who received a Spink award....or Bowie Kuhn - he had a huge head!
   35. Dag Nabbit apealing [sic] his own check swing Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:04 PM (#3651145)
Carlton Fisk --- wouldn't really be surprised at all. How did he last so long?

In one of his '80s books, Boswell included a piece of Fisk about what an incredible job Fisk did recreating his body in his mid-to-late 30s. The man once called Pudge engaged in intensive weight lifting to improve himself, allowing him to hit 37 homers at age 37 despite playing the most punishing position on the diamond.

I ain't sayin' Fisk took anything, but it's similar (or better) evidence against him than is often used against many 21st centuries suspects.
   36. SugarBear Blanks Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:05 PM (#3651146)
He doesn't precisely fit criteria (b), though his peak is Canseco's debut year, but I'm going Carlton Fisk. Wouldn't surprise me a bit.
   37. Kirby Kyle Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:06 PM (#3651148)
Satchel Paige.
   38. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:07 PM (#3651150)
I meant Schmidt would be the one who would cause me the most pain if outed as a user. I've always admired the way he persevered above the abuse he took early in his career and worked hard to make himself a better player (particularly on defense) even after becoming a star.

You're not doing schadenfreude right! :)
   39. Randy Jones Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:08 PM (#3651152)
It would be absolutely awesome to see the reaction if Ripken, Smith, and Gwynn were all outed as steroid users.
   40. Dirty Tom Rackham Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:09 PM (#3651154)
Kirby Puckett --- steroids would sort of be a minor character flaw for him

Certainly would be far from his worst character flaw.
   41. Tom Nawrocki Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:15 PM (#3651160)
Paul Molitor's career high in home runs came in 1993 at the age of 36, when he hit 22.
   42. Lassus Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:15 PM (#3651161)
You're not doing schadenfreude right! :)

Figures this would be the post sweeping in from Europe with your big fancy international words.
   43. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:18 PM (#3651167)
Figures this would be the post sweeping in from Europe with your big fancy international words.

Typical American peasant...
   44. AndrewJ Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:19 PM (#3651170)
Mike Schmidt had his career high in homers in 1980, when Jose Canseco was still in high school.
   45. bunyon Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:23 PM (#3651175)
Well, then I don't like Schmidt nearly enough. No one should give steroids to high schoolers.
   46. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:26 PM (#3651182)
Is anyone else hoping it's Tommy Lasorda? I would probably give a finger for that.
   47. Van Lingle Mungo Jerry Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:39 PM (#3651200)
Is anyone else hoping it's Tommy Lasorda?


Well, he definitely got bigger as his career progressed.
   48. Obo Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:40 PM (#3651201)
Shooty, post 16 asked two questions. One was schadenfreude, one was pain.
   49. John Northey Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:41 PM (#3651204)
I'd say Rickey seems a prime suspect. He was a workout guy with a sculpted body. He showed a willingness to do anything to stay in baseball via his years in the indy leagues. He had an ego that made Canseco's seem small so doing steroids would not be odd as he'd be wanting to stay as #1 no matter what the cost. Also, as a Canadian, I am extremely aware of how steroids help runners (see Ben Johnson) and Rickey was the best base stealer ever in the game and kept a lot of speed late in his career.

Of course, Cal Rikpen still is a good candidate as the drugs are supposed to help you recover faster and avoid injuries and who avoided injury like he did?
   50. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:42 PM (#3651206)
Lasorda has admitted to being on the creme brulee.
   51. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:44 PM (#3651209)
"The Tenth Inning" spends a bunch of time on the Jim Leyritz game of the 1996 World Series.


And a bit of time talking about the Yankees' triumphant return to the postseason the prior year, without mentioning the great Mariner comeback and defeat of the Yankees at all.

More importantly, where was any mention of the Marlins and their wild card World Series win? By themselves, an expansion team winning so quickly or a second-place team going all the way would be of major historical importance, but together even more so. There was a brief note that the playoffs expanded in that decade, but without any specifics.

There wasn't enough on the public financing of new stadia, either. That's a way more significant issue than steroids. The new parks were discussed and dismissed pretty quickly with barely a whisper of comment.
   52. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:45 PM (#3651210)
Shooty, post 16 asked two questions. One was schadenfreude, one was pain.

I am not bright. D'oh.

I took a nap yesterday and when I woke up, I was still so tired it took me almost 30 seconds to realize where I was. Has that happened to anyone else? It was an eerie feeling especially since I was just on my livingroom couch. (Alcohol was not involved, surprisingly.)
   53. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 03:47 PM (#3651213)
I'd say Rickey seems a prime suspect. He was a workout guy with a sculpted body.


Actually, didn't Rickey say Rickey never lifted weights? He talked about being naturally lucky to have his physique and doing nothing but pushups to stay strong.
   54. JMPH Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:02 PM (#3651223)
I would be really sad if someone accused Kirby Puckett of steroid use when he can't answer to the accusations.
   55. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:05 PM (#3651226)
And a bit of time talking about the Yankees' triumphant return to the postseason the prior year, without mentioning the great Mariner comeback and defeat of the Yankees at all.

Really? Griffey scoring on Edgar's double is one of the iconic images of the 90s, IMO.
   56. Craig Calcaterra Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:12 PM (#3651231)
Really? Griffey scoring on Edgar's double is one of the iconic images of the 90s, IMO.


Obviously editing means making choices, but there totally could have been an "expansion teams step up" segment with the Jays WS titles, the Mariners breakthrough, such as it was, under Griffey and in 1995, the Marlins, the Diamondbacks, etc.
   57. Bob Dernier Cri Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:15 PM (#3651235)
it took me almost 30 seconds to realize where I was. Has that happened to anyone else?

It used to happen to Marcel Proust.
   58. 'Spos Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:17 PM (#3651237)
...Cal Rikpen still is a good candidate as the drugs are supposed to help you recover faster and avoid injuries and who avoided injury like he did?


First thing that sprang to my mind.

there totally could have been an "expansion teams step up" segment with the Jays WS titles, the Mariners breakthrough, such as it was, under Griffey and in 1995, the Marlins, the Diamondbacks, etc.


QFT
   59. Dag Nabbit apealing [sic] his own check swing Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:18 PM (#3651238)
I'm not that upset or surprised about the '95 ALDS not making the cut, because it's a division series. I don't think I've ever even seen the apparently iconic image of Griffey scoring. (Though I wasn't paying too much attention to baseball in the mid-1990s). That said, it's possible it'll get mentioned in part II if Burns talks about the 2001 Mariners. It might be just a passing mention - but there might be something on that Ms squad and Burns likes to go partially-thematic and partially-chronological in his approach. That said, I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were one of the ones who felt the absence of the '95 division series was a big loss.
   60. Bob Dernier Cri Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:26 PM (#3651242)
There was no mention of Jeffrey Maier or the Flip, either: Orioles and A's fans are probably happy about that. The poor guy's only got a few hours to tell his story, and he's going to need to do the play-by-play of the entire '04 postseason, so cut him a break on what he left out :)
   61. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:27 PM (#3651243)
It used to happen to Marcel Proust.

Whew. Good to know I'm brilliant and insane and not just insane.
   62. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:33 PM (#3651250)
"Iconic image" may have been a stretch. But a very memorable play, and the pics of Griffey grinning from under a pile of bodies has been used endlessly.

Griffey under the dogpile

And ARod is right next to him.
   63. Gamingboy Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:36 PM (#3651254)
I haven't watched Tenth Innign yet (DVRs are awesome), but I have to speculate here.

I've always pegged Ripken as more of a "Greenies" suspect. And I have to believe we would have found out by now if he had used juice for any sustained amount of time- it would be the great white whale.

Rickey makes too much sense, as I totally can see him saying to Boswell the words "Canseco Milkshake", even if it was simply some protein chocolate milk or something.

I have to think that it would be Kirby Puckett, as nobody would follow up on it, since, y'know, he's dead.
   64. SoSH U at work Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:41 PM (#3651256)
I'm not that upset or surprised about the '95 ALDS not making the cut, because it's a division series. I don't think I've ever even seen the apparently iconic image of Griffey scoring. (Though I wasn't paying too much attention to baseball in the mid-1990s). That said, it's possible it'll get mentioned in part II if Burns talks about the 2001 Mariners. It might be just a passing mention - but there might be something on that Ms squad and Burns likes to go partially-thematic and partially-chronological in his approach. That said, I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were one of the ones who felt the absence of the '95 division series was a big loss.


I can see justification for the 95 ALDS as a means of introducing the Expanded Playoffs, Complete with Wildcard, into baseball's storyline. It was the first year of 8-team playoffs, and one could argue that having such a memorable series gave some credibility to this new creation (while overlooking the absolutely inexplicable format that allowed the third and fourth best teams in the AL to meet in the first round while 1 and 2 squared off in the other park, with 2 holding HFA).
   65. Jose Can You Seabiscuit Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:42 PM (#3651257)
That shot of Griffey under the pile is a true classic. I think that '95 ALDS probably gets pushed aside because the Mariners went out and lost the ALCS. I think if they had gone to (or better yet won) the World Series it would have been a bit more memorable.

There is probably a great story to tell with that series as the backdrop. You had guys like Rivera, Jeter, A-Rod who weren't really anything special yet but about to break out plus some established stars like Griffey and Johnson about to explode further. Add in Mattingly in his final year and you've got a compelling story.
   66. Danny Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:50 PM (#3651262)
Mike Schmidt --- I'd be torn. Such a great player but given his preachiness since retiring could be amusing.

I may be misremembering, but didn't he say he probably would've used steroids if they had been around?
   67. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:55 PM (#3651265)
but didn't he say he probably would've used steroids if they had been around?

I remember this being Schmidt's stance, too. My impression is that he's sort of the anti-Dale Murphy about steroids. (Well, Canseco is the anti-Dale Murphy, I guess.)
   68. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:56 PM (#3651266)
Mike Schmidt --- I'd be torn. Such a great player but given his preachiness since retiring could be amusing.


I may be misremembering, but didn't he say he probably would've used steroids if they had been around?

You're not misremembering. There have been several threads on Schmidt's comments along those lines.
   69. AndrewJ Posted: September 29, 2010 at 04:59 PM (#3651271)
Burns didn't mention the 1995 ALDS or the Angels/Mariners division race, which was virtually the 1951 Dodgers/Giants all over again.
   70. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 05:03 PM (#3651273)
If anybody wanted to see Griffey scoring.

I swear it's not an Albright link.
   71. phredbird Posted: September 29, 2010 at 05:07 PM (#3651280)
my money is on rickey too. his A's pedigree is too much of a coinky-dink to ignore. and as someone mentioned upthread, steroids help sprinters too. the home run comment by boswell could be a way to obscure the identity of the user.
it wouldn't bother me if it was boggs though. he's kind of a creep. the margo adams thing and all that. i know a lady from orlando who has had to work with him for his appearances at charity events and such and she said he routinely gets hammered and is hard to work with, or at least that was the case when she was in the business.
   72. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: September 29, 2010 at 05:08 PM (#3651281)
By the way, I read the link to Wezen-ball and, if it was Rickey who said he drank a "Canseco Milkshake", it was probably just a creatine or protein shake as I'm sure Jose was into that, too. Maybe Boswell has never reported that this player A is a PED user because he actually doesn't know if player A is a PED user.
   73. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 05:14 PM (#3651288)
Burns didn't mention the 1995 ALDS or the Angels/Mariners division race, which was virtually the 1951 Dodgers/Giants all over again.


But without the spyglass in the outfield.

Marlins fans (both of them) should be most peeved, but there definitely needed to be more on the expanded playoffs. Burns could have covered the M's run along the way; without the wild card to shoot for, they never would have hung in to win the division. The great Miami selloff should have been covered at the end of such a segment.

He didn't mention the 114-win Yankee team either, did he? Even just a sentence at the end of the McGwire/Sosa wrapup would have sufficed.

Part two ought to have something on the statistical revolution, or that'll be another miss.
   74. xbhaskarx Posted: September 29, 2010 at 05:17 PM (#3651291)
Canseco said Rickey Henderson never used steroids. Considering he named so many other guys, like McGwire, Giambi, Pudge, Boone, etc. to get publicity for his book, it makes little sense for him to not name a hall of famer like Rickey...

For the record, though, none of the reporters who went to Barnes & Noble initiated the steroid talk. Canseco did that himself, hollering to Rickey Henderson's in-laws as they walked away from the table with three signed books: "That's one of the players who's not on steroids."

The Onos stopped to talk to the media and vouched for the author. "One thing Rickey said is Jose does not lie," Rosalind Ono said.
   75. Textbook Editor Posted: September 29, 2010 at 05:22 PM (#3651295)
I'm not that upset or surprised about the '95 ALDS not making the cut, because it's a division series. I don't think I've ever even seen the apparently iconic image of Griffey scoring. (Though I wasn't paying too much attention to baseball in the mid-1990s). That said, it's possible it'll get mentioned in part II if Burns talks about the 2001 Mariners. It might be just a passing mention - but there might be something on that Ms squad and Burns likes to go partially-thematic and partially-chronological in his approach. That said, I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were one of the ones who felt the absence of the '95 division series was a big loss.


It was very early in the episode last night, but they did show Griffey scoring, although it was not in the context of any kind of discussion of the 1995 ALDS in general; I think it was part of a discussion of how baseball's expanded, added teams to the playoffs, etc.--a general overview at the start of how things have changed since the original Baseball series ended in 1994... But the clip of Griffey scoring was shown behind some narration that had nothing to do (really) with the visual.
   76. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 05:27 PM (#3651300)
I thought the Tenth Inning was pretty good last night. At least the acknowledged Bonds as the best player in baseball prior to his involvement with PEDs.

I can imagine Rickey doing steroids, but I can't imagine him keeping quiet about it for all of these years. Is he even bright enough? If Cal took them, it didn;t make him look or play any younger. I am now the same age he was when he broke the streak, and I can't get over how old he looked at only 35..... he could have passed for 50, easily. Although now he looks 70. His dad was the same way.
   77. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: September 29, 2010 at 05:34 PM (#3651308)
Is he even bright enough?

How do we know Rickey is dumb?
   78. Traderdave Posted: September 29, 2010 at 05:34 PM (#3651309)
What about the possibility that it was merely andro? Most "hard core" steroids are injected, if it really was a milkshake, it was likely something far less malevolent. Say what you will about andro, but it was sold OTC like any other protein powder, and was not viewed with anything like the jaundiced eye with which "true steroids" were/are.
   79. The Pequod Posted: September 29, 2010 at 05:41 PM (#3651318)
It's okay for Boswell to pass moral judgment on players who used steroids, MLB executives who looked the other way, etc, but there's nothing wrong with him keeping his mouth shut about the milkshake story until now?

Not that it surprises many here...
   80. Dag Nabbit apealing [sic] his own check swing Posted: September 29, 2010 at 05:41 PM (#3651319)
There was no mention of Jeffrey Maier or the Flip, either: Orioles and A's fans are probably happy about that.

Given that the top of the 10th ended with the '98 HR race, it's a bit early to say The Flip was left out.

He didn't mention the 114-win Yankee team either, did he?

Mentioned that the Yanks won three more titles after the '96 Series. The biggest surprise for me was how little time was spent on the Yanks.

Part two ought to have something on the statistical revolution, or that'll be another miss.

I'm pretty sure it's supposed to, actually. I find that surprising.
   81. The Kids Are Enright (1k5v3L) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 05:55 PM (#3651326)
Murray Chass must be pissed. This upstages his backne shocker.
   82. bjhanke Posted: September 29, 2010 at 05:55 PM (#3651327)
Living in St. Louis, I have had fun these last few years telling Steroid Puritans that Ozzie Smith fits perfectly the profile of a steroid user that the Puritans most often cite. Ozzie went to a "personal trainer" (Mackie Shilstone) after, I think, the 1984 season. He came back 20 pounds heavier and much stronger, with a jump in power, bearing in mind that "power" means "doubles" to Ozzie. Drives the Puritans nuts. Here in STL, they all are completely sure that Ozzie is a saint, but they will accuse-and-convict (it's one process to them) anyone else who fits that profile. Me? I think Ozzie did not use steroids, but then I think the profile the Puritans use is a crock. I would never dig for myself the hole that using that profile digs them into. - Brock Hanke
   83. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 06:18 PM (#3651351)
I would never dig for myself the hole that using that profile digs them into.


Just like it says in the Bible: "They have digged a pit before me, into the midst whereof they are fallen themselves."
   84. Rich Rifkin Posted: September 29, 2010 at 06:28 PM (#3651360)
I suspect the player in question is Ryne Sandberg.

First, he fits all of Boswell's description. He hit 40 home runs in 1990, which was 33% more than any other year in his career. (Henderson only matched his career high that season.)

Second, Sandberg, in his HOF speech, decried the use of steroids. That struck me at the time as very weird. I now think it was likely a Ted Haggard moment.* Ryno does protesteth too much, methinks. His words about steroids sounded eerily similar to FP Santangelo's preachy words I had heard FP utter--just before FP admitted that he was in fact a juicer.

Third, Sandberg, in his "prime years" from age 26-28, he was a good hitter, but not great. After 1989, from age 29-32, he becomes a Hall of Famer. In that 4-year span he hit 122 home runs, 43% of his 16-season career total. Like a lot of players in that era, he was also noticeably more muscle-bound.

*It does seem to me that the folks who make a lot of noise about how anti-gay they are very often are doing so to make people think they are not gay when they are. Just recently, four young male accusers -- not one, but four! -- accused Bishop** Eddie Long of Atlanta, a gay-hating minister who has enriched himself preaching the Gospel of a deity who said "the meek shall inherit the earth," of essentially being a closet homosexual who abused his position of authority to have gay sex with them. (I don't know if he raped anyone.)

**How big of a blowhard do you have to be to give yourself the title of Bishop? Eddie Long is not part of a larger church or synod which consecrated him a Bishop. He merely looked over the chess board and said, "Edddie, you look like a Bishop to me!" Queen Latifah had already snagged her piece on that same chess board. Then she came out as gay.
   85. Dag Nabbit apealing [sic] his own check swing Posted: September 29, 2010 at 06:32 PM (#3651363)
I suspect the player in question is Ryne Sandberg.

I figured its an AL player because Boswell would have had more access to them in the pre-Nationals years.
   86. Rich Rifkin Posted: September 29, 2010 at 06:33 PM (#3651366)
Ozzie Smith fits perfectly the profile of a steroid user that the Puritans most often cite.

But surely Ozzie is not Boswell's man. He does not fit those numbers.
   87. SugarBear Blanks Posted: September 29, 2010 at 06:37 PM (#3651373)
More importantly, where was any mention of the Marlins and their wild card World Series win? By themselves, an expansion team winning so quickly or a second-place team going all the way would be of major historical importance, but together even more so. There was a brief note that the playoffs expanded in that decade, but without any specifics.

And they also had a conscious and explicit fire sale after winning their first one. The reintroduction of the fire sale after decades of dormancy (**) is plain as day one of the most important trends and events of the "Tenth Inning," though from all indications Burns missed out on that one, too.

(**) With minor apologies to the 1992 or 1993 Padres who truly ushered in the new age, if not with quite the same zeal and honesty as the 1997-98 Marlins.
   88. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 07:01 PM (#3651382)
I like how this has turned into a game of Clue.
   89. Walt Davis Posted: September 29, 2010 at 07:08 PM (#3651387)
So how did this work for Sandberg? Canseco told Palmeiro in Texas who let it slip to Cindy who mentioned it to the three other guys on the Cubs she was banging and Sandberg noticed they were bulking up and asked them what they were on?

Sandberg on PEDs would not be surprising. Sandberg on PEDs via Canseco and using the term "Canseco milkshake" seems much more far-fetched.

Folks here seem to have glossed over Boswells "so they were already spreading in 1988" part. And hasn't Canseco also claimed there's an HoFer who did roids?

But, really, none of the candidates are particularly good fits to the information. The ones with "big" HR spikes had no obvious connection to Canseco; the ones with obvious connections to Canseco (i.e. Rickey, Reggie) didn't see a big HR spike. Maybe what Boswell means is that Canseco's usage was already so well-known among players that the "Canseco milkshake" was known far and wide.

Or he's being coy and it is Eckersley. :-)
   90. Misirlou's got a busy day, he's wearing a vest Posted: September 29, 2010 at 07:19 PM (#3651394)
Edddie, you look like a Bishop to me!" Queen Latifah had already snagged her piece on that same chess board. Then she came out as gay.


Does not bode well for King Kaufman
   91. lar @ wezen-ball Posted: September 29, 2010 at 07:21 PM (#3651397)
I wrote the post that Craig linked to last night immediately after watching The Tenth Inning (in fact, I was writing it and watching at the same time). With such a meatball of a quote out there, ranking the suspects seemed like something fun and easy to look at.

After poking around a bit this morning, I found out that Boswell actually mentioned the phrase "Jose Canseco milkshake" for the first time in 1988, in his interview with Charlie Rose. That definitely changes my opinion about who the most likely HOFer is, but I think most of the analysis is still pretty fair. Instead of Rickey being my #1 guy, he's now just at the top of the list alongside Cal, Dawson, and maybe someone like Fisk...

Here's more on Boswell & the 1988 quote.
   92. just plain joe Posted: September 29, 2010 at 07:29 PM (#3651405)
Ah hell, they were all using steriods back then, some of them just got more benefit from them than others. Now, can we please put this thread to bed and promise to never mention PED's again? What's done is done and nothing we do or say is ever going to change anything. We can't roll back the clock to 1988, or 1978 or 1898 and have a do over; let's just move on. Thanks for listening.
   93. Josh1 Posted: September 29, 2010 at 07:32 PM (#3651410)
Reggie Jackson Mike Schmidt George Brett Robin Yount Carlton Fisk Kirby Puckett Dave Winfield Ozzie Smith Gary Carter Eddie Murray Paul Molitor Wade Boggs Ryne Sandberg Cal Ripken Tony Gwynn Rickey Henderson


I can probably come up with a narrative for why we should suspect every single one of these guys and the pitchers as well. The lesson I take from that fact is that any narrative about any player that doesn't include a positive drug test is worthless.
   94. Rich Rifkin Posted: September 29, 2010 at 07:44 PM (#3651421)
Maybe what Boswell means is that Canseco's usage was already so well-known among players that the "Canseco milkshake" was known far and wide.

I think that's right. It's probable that many people in baseball connected with steroids in the late 1980s -- including players, team trainers and outside-trainers -- knew or suspected that Canseco was a steroid fiend. As such, once one person coined the "Canseco shake" term, it became the argot of many who were not teammates, friends, neighbors or training partners of Canseco.
   95. Gamingboy Posted: September 29, 2010 at 07:59 PM (#3651436)
What about the possibility that it was merely andro? Most "hard core" steroids are injected, if it really was a milkshake, it was likely something far less malevolent. Say what you will about andro, but it was sold OTC like any other protein powder, and was not viewed with anything like the jaundiced eye with which "true steroids" were/are.


I agree with you here. It was probably a legal-but-morally questionable substance, not a hard steroid.
   96. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 29, 2010 at 08:08 PM (#3651451)
The steroid milkshake scandal is far worse than we imagined.
   97. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 08:17 PM (#3651459)
I know that Boswell reported as early as 1988 that Jose Canseco used steroids—and his reports were basically ignored by all but a handful of booing fans that fall
Correction: Boswell did not 'report' it; he made a claim, without even a pretense of evidence. (Not even anonymous sources.) He just said it matter-of-factly.

Also, fans didn't "boo." A few of them taunted Jose about it. But nobody took it seriously. Not fans, writers, other players, or ownership. Which just shows how much revisionism has taken place since.
   98. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 29, 2010 at 08:27 PM (#3651472)
Of course, Cal Rikpen still is a good candidate as the drugs are supposed to help you recover faster and avoid injuries and who avoided injury like he did?
No, no, no. The drugs are supposed to make you more injury-prone. Gotta keep it straight.
   99. Rich Rifkin Posted: September 29, 2010 at 08:33 PM (#3651477)
The steroid milkshake scandal is far worse than we imagined.

You betcha!
   100. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 29, 2010 at 08:35 PM (#3651479)
his reports were basically ignored by all but a handful of booing fans that fall

Also, fans didn't "boo." A few of them taunted Jose about it.


A handful? A few? Not quite. Thousands of them chanted "steroids, steroids" at Jose Canseco.

That may have been done largely in the spirit of fun, like when fans threw an inflatable Madonna doll at Canseco a few years later. Canseco even flexed a muscle in response to the 1988 jeering, although he certainly wasn't jocular when denying the charge on camera during a special cutaway interview.

But as long as we're decrying revisionist history, let's not pretend that there were just a couple of lonesome chemists whooping it up at the Fens.
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