The last thing I did before I checked this was call UC-Berkeley about a late payment they owe my company.

Hope that $395 isn't the cause of this.

Stupid ####### rugby team. People around here literally care more about Cal water polo than baseball. This really blows.

JCYS, I wouldn't worry if I were you. The disbursements office has just introduced a bunch of new regulations on purchase orders that are going to make it even harder than it used to be to squeeze receivables out of the university, so you're just getting one back against those bastards.

Couldn't the university cut something useless, like the Math department?

As a graduate of said Math department, I wholeheartedly agree. The department is run in a thoroughly clownshoes fashion. (I guess this is probably true of the entire university, including the baseball team.)

Hey, but at least the football team got their $150 million locker room built on an active fault.

Here is the Chronicle story on Cal baseball.

The 10 best hitters to come out of Cal: Jeff Kent, Jackie Jensen, Sam Chapman*, Taylor Douthit, Darren Lewis, Geoff Blum, Mike Epstein, Xavier Nady, Bob Melvin and Conor Jackson.

The 10 best pitchers to come from Cal: Andy Messersmith, Orval Overall, Monte Pearson, Bill Werle, Juan Eichelberger, Ryan Drese, Rich Nye, Chuck Cary, Brandon Morrow, Tyler Walker and Mike Cather.

*Chapman was a slightly better player than his career numbers would indicate. He was 25 years old in 1941. He then missed his age 26, 27, 28 seasons and almost all of his age 29 season serving in World War Dos. If you theoretically add back in his entire prime, he looks a little better.

What other BCS conference universities don't have a baseball team? I know Wisconsin dropped their team around 20 years ago because of a lack of interest. Are there any others or will Cal be only the 2nd to drop baseball?

Hey, but at least the football team got their $150 million locker room built on an active fault.

Cal football makes money. No other sports, men's or women's does. Even Cal's men's basketball team with all of its TV money does not result in a profit.

Hey, but at least the football team got their $150 million locker room built on an active fault.

One thing I remember from the education I received at a University of California campus was that pretty much every building in California is built on an active fault.

I know Wisconsin dropped their team around 20 years ago because of a lack of interest. Are there any others or will Cal be only the 2nd to drop baseball?

Colorado hasn't had baseball for ~30 years. Oregon went decades without baseball before Phil Knight re$urrected their program.

As far as I know, those are the only others.

What other BCS conference universities don't have a baseball team?

Iowa State and Colorado of the Big XII don't have baseball teams. Also, in the Big East, I don't think Syracuse, Marquette, Providence or DePaul have baseball teams. Every school in the ACC and SEC fields a baseball team.

There are also a large number of schools from the lesser conferences which lack baseball programs, now.

Also, in the Big East, I don't think Syracuse, Marquette, Providence or DePaul have baseball teams.

I wasn't counting universities that don't have football teams, which is why I put the BCS qualifier in there. So, Syracuse would count, but not the others.

So far we have Syracuse, Colorado, Wisconsin, Iowa State, and now Cal. Any others?

Cal football makes money.

One of the few football programs in the country that does, I guess. I remember reading a couple of years ago that fewer than 20 Division 1A college football programs were profitable nationwide, with Notre Dame at #1.

Still, football is a crap sport for lunkheads too uncoordinated to hit a curveball, I don't see why they should avoid the executioner's axe just to give neckless goons a chance to waste a free education.

Off Topic, but do businesses care if you graduate from Cal? Or is it more of a e-penis envy thing?

As much as I enjoy watching, college baseball doesn't make a lot of sense.

1) They play real games in February. Shiver.
2) The climax of the season (the pennant race) and all the postseason takes play after school is out.
3) A large chunk of the best players go straight to the minors. And the minors are arguably better at developing players.
4) Baseball programs make no money and often lose a ton.


Given all that, I'd be just as happy to see college baseball disappear and for another A league to be created. Of course, I'd be just as happy to see college football go away, too. But with football there is a TON of interest and it is, essentially, the highest minor league in the sport. It may be crazy, but it's entrenched.

One thing I remember from the education I received at a University of California campus was that pretty much every building in California is built on an active fault.

Maybe, but it's hard to get any closer than this.

FWIW, there are 301 schools which have D-1 baseball. By contrast, there are 245 schools with either D-1A or D-1AA football.

College baseball teams are limited to 11.67 scholarships. Football can have up to 85 (1-A) or 63 (1-AA) or 44 (after Pete Carroll was your coach). Fourteen women's sports, including softball and squash are permitted more scholarships than baseball is.

The Berkeley area just can't support baseball. /Lew Wolff

I don't get limiting scholarships, especially in sports where there isn't much chance for corruption. If the NCAA really worried about student athletes, you would want more scholarships for a sport, not less. I realize Title IX plays a role in this, but this is still confusing.

Oh wow, I went to Berkeley from 05-09 and made a habit of going to the baseball games on campus (free for students). It was a great, low-key environment, just a stroll away from my classes, fantastic time. About 50-100 people every day, a handful of scouts, and some of the best amateur players in the entire country. Off the top of my head I saw future MLB draftees Tyson Ross, Brennan Boesch, Josh Satin, Brett Jackson, Brandon Morrow. Not to mention 2-time Cy Young winner Tim Lincecum when the Huskies came to Berkeley. I've always felt that the Pac-10 is the model NCAA conference of the entire country - largely because it combines top tier talent with a higher respect for the "student" part of the student-athlete balance than in other large conferences - I guess I'm trying to say I'm shocked and this is a pretty huge loss of a top-notch program. I'm also glad I graduated the UC when I did, things are only going to get worse.

Cal football makes money. No other sports, men's or women's does. Even Cal's men's basketball team with all of its TV money does not result in a profit.

I thought the argument for building up these incredibly huge football programs (huge stadiums, expensive training facilities, etc.) was that the football team's financial success would keep sports' programs that didn't make so much money afloat (like baseball).

College baseball teams are limited to 11.67 scholarships. Football can have up to 85 (1-A) or 63 (1-AA) or 44 (after Pete Carroll was your coach). Fourteen women's sports, including softball and squash are permitted more scholarships than baseball is.

Well there's your problem. How many scholarships do they offer for future chemists and engineers and physicists? You know, people who could do actual valuable work?

Rifkin: "Cal football makes money."

Shredder: "One of the few football programs in the country that does, I guess. I remember reading a couple of years ago that fewer than 20 Division 1A college football programs were profitable nationwide, with Notre Dame at #1."

I think the 'under 20' number was with athletic departments as a whole, not football programs. Here is an article based on an NCAA accountant's research on this question:

Sixty-eight FBS schools reported turning a profit on football, with a median value of $8.8 million. The 52 FBS schools that lost money on football reported median losses of $2.7 million.

The breakdown for basketball programs at those 120 schools was nearly identical, though the median values for profitable programs ($2.9 million) and money-losing ones ($873,000) were smaller.

The fiscal fortunes of major college athletic programs without football teams were even worse. None of the 97 schools in that category reported making money from athletics, with median losses of more than $2.8 million.

Fulks pointed out that many schools funnel profits from football and men's basketball _ which for the top schools can mean millions in Bowl Championship Series payments and NCAA tournament payments _ into lower-profile sports that can't rely on season ticket plans, TV packages and well-heeled donors.

More teams generally means larger subsidies from the school.

"Football and men's basketball* are the only two sports you any have chance of making money," he said. "If you start splitting that up between 30 or 40 sports, you start losing money."

*I could not find a source for this, but I recall reading a story a few years ago, probably from the Chronicle, about Cal's men's basketball losing money. Part of the reason cited in the story was that UCB failed to raise as much money from donors as they needed to pay for Haas Pavillion, and so all extras revenues from men's hoops are plowed back into financing their building. The story (if my memory serves) implied that this deficit was not going to go away any time soon.

One thing I remember from the education I received at a University of California campus was that pretty much every building in California is built on an active fault.

Maybe, but it's hard to get any closer than this.

I used to run up and down those bleachers a few times a week in the dead of night, and we played IM football on that turf. I hope some of that money they're getting went in to replacing that green concrete they called a football field.

Cal football makes money.

So I understand. However, the current plans involve huge capital expenditures ($150 million for the training facility, to be followed by another $300 million to renovate the stadium itself) and a somewhat speculative financing scheme (at least for the former, I'm not sure what the plans are for the stadium): they are selling bonds to cover the construction, and at the same time raising money through donations that they plan to first invest in the stock market and eventually use to pay off the bonds. Gee, what could possibly go wrong with that plan...

As you note in your later post
Part of the reason cited in the story was that UCB failed to raise as much money from donors as they needed to pay for Haas Pavillion, and so all extras revenues from men's hoops are plowed back into financing their building. The story (if my memory serves) implied that this deficit was not going to go away any time soon.

It seems likely the same thing will be true of the football program within a few years.

Maybe, but it's hard to get any closer than this.

Every vertical pass play involves someone running a seam route.

IIRC Wisconsin is resurrecting their baseball program.

Purdue needs to resurrect their Men's Soccer program.

Stupid ####### rugby team. People around here literally care more about Cal water polo than baseball. This really blows.

The rugby team is the only sport on campus besides football that makes money, and takes virtually zero money out of the university.

Also, as a fan of Cal rugby and Jack Clark, Cal shouldn't be canning something that 80% of its total athletic national championships come in, as well as the oldest sport on campus. Sad to say, but Cal fans checked out on baseball a long time ago, and so this was going to happen eventually.

Shredder: "One of the few football programs in the country that does, I guess. I remember reading a couple of years ago that fewer than 20 Division 1A college football programs were profitable nationwide, with Notre Dame at #1."

Umm, that was Joba, not me.

FWIW, there are 301 schools which have D-1 baseball. By contrast, there are 245 schools with either D-1A or D-1AA football.

The Big West conference accounts for nine seven of those 56 schools with baseball but not football. Forgot that SLO and Davis have football teams.

One of the few football programs in the country that does, I guess. I remember reading a couple of years ago that fewer than 20 Division 1A college football programs were profitable nationwide, with Notre Dame at #1.

Yes, and every baseball team except the Yankees loses money. I CANNOT BELIEVE how ####### the same people who mock MLB teams for losing money believe that CFB football teams lose money. They TRY to lose money FFS.

"Umm, that was Joba, not me."

My bad. Sorry.

"Forgot that SLO and Davis have football teams."

Both of them are joining the Big Sky for football in roughly 2012:

The football teams from Cal Poly and UC Davis are joining the Big Sky Conference, league commissioner Doug Fullerton said Tuesday.

The universities accepted the invitations to join the conference as football-only schools late last week after university presidents approved changes to league rules that require all member schools to take part in the same 14 sports.

Cal Poly and UC Davis are Football Championship Subdivision members that compete in the Great West Conference but participate in the Big West Conference for the majority of their sports.

A timeline for the move has not been set.

"Our obligation and commitment to them is to work them in just as quickly as we can," Fullerton said.

Many of the Big Sky teams have their 2011 schedules nearly complete and Cal Poly and UC Davis must officially withdraw from the Great West, which also includes football teams from North Dakota, South Dakota and Southern Utah.

Fullerton said he expects Cal Poly and UC Davis to end up with some games against Big Sky schools next year, a heavy slate of games in 2012 and likely a full schedule by 2013.

So who/what do we blame for this decision? Wasteful government spending? Women? Hippies? Immigrants? or Obama?

"Football and men's basketball* are the only two sports you any have chance of making money," he said. "If you start splitting that up between 30 or 40 sports, you start losing money."

Did some educator write this sentence, or was it the AD? I am fairly certain that a comparison involving more than two should be "among" and not "between"; difficult indeed to be between 30 or 40 sports.

IIRC Wisconsin is resurrecting their baseball program.

I can't find anything to corroborate this. The AD said last year that they have no plans to bring back the team. I wouldn't doubt that they hope to bring it back in the future if Bud Selig or Lew Wolff were to donate $50 million for a new stadium and ancillary things, but I wouldn't think they plan on that happening anytime soon (at least, they shouldn't if they know Selig and Wolff's attitudes towards funding stadiums with their own money).

If you regard college sports as wholly professional, that's one thing. If you regard it otherwise, it's another.

I look at it somewhat idealistic as otherwise, and the question to me is, in what sports do college age "kids" who want to play not have anywhere to do so? Where does the demand of people who want to participate outstrip the capacity of all the various teams that take the field? I doubt that baseball is anywhere near the top of the list. It's probably more likely that soccer players go begging or maybe volleyball or even basketball. I don't know. Just a guess.

But, so, in other words, I can't get too worked up about a school discontinuing baseball. But, of course, if I view college sports as wholly professional, then I can't make myself care at all.

So far we have Syracuse, Colorado, Wisconsin, Iowa State, and now Cal. Any others?

In BCS conferences, no.

This fairly recent article indicates that there are no current plans to bring back baseball at Wisconsin.

-- MWE

Cal baseball was pretty fun, the only sport I saw when I was there. I remember seeing a freshman named Xavier Nady and thinking hey, this guy is pretty good, then seeing him with the Padres several years later and it taking awhile to make the connection.

Sorry to hear this -- and whereas Syracuse, Iowa State, Wisconsin and Colorado could cite geography as valid reasons for dropping baseball, Cal lacks that excuse.

I hope Maryland never considers eliminating baseball, even though it hasn't won an ACC title in nearly 40 years.

As a baseball fan and Cal alum, my knee jerk reaction is frustration -- but I never went to see a game as a student and I've only been to see one game since graduating (and that was to see Jered Weaver pitch against them).

Is there a way to salvage the program or is this a done deal?

Oh wow, I went to Berkeley from 05-09 and made a habit of going to the baseball games on campus (free for students). It was a great, low-key environment, just a stroll away from my classes, fantastic time. About 50-100 people every day

Yikes! No wonder they're cutting the program. I went to Cal Poly SLO from 2006-10 and the baseball games there would draw 1000-1500 per game.

####, Wooster gets more than that and it is cold in April in Ohio.

does this strike anyone else as a ploy to raise money? i guess they might be okay with losing the program, but it would seem to be a lot easier to get people to donate for the good of the baseball team, as opposed to a bowling, or fencing, or whatever other program might be more easily chopped.

does this strike anyone else as a ploy to raise money? i guess they might be okay with losing the program, but it would seem to be a lot easier to get people to donate for the good of the baseball team, as opposed to a bowling, or fencing, or whatever other program might be more easily chopped.

It's probably too late for that already. The Rugby fundraising/letter-writing campaign has already been going on for weeks, just based on the hint of a rumor that some programs were going to be considered for elimination.

What is supposed to be the purpose of college sports in the first place? Making money for the university, a free traning ground for professional sports or part of a life long physical education program?

The NCAA and major college sports are pimping out kids for free and they still complain about not having enough money.

[45] Also for building school pride.

As much as I enjoy watching, college baseball doesn't make a lot of sense.

1) They play real games in February. Shiver.
2) The climax of the season (the pennant race) and all the postseason takes play after school is out.
3) A large chunk of the best players go straight to the minors. And the minors are arguably better at developing players.

and metal bats-PING!!

Apropos of nothin': my favorite t-shirt is a Cal baseball shirt I grabbed on the cheap from a Champs Sporting Goods in SF.
Anyway, this news really sucks.

Incidentally - for those who didn't know - UVA was set to drop baseball a few years back until an anonymous donor put up big money to help get the program on track. Fast forward a few years and the Cavs have easily exceed their past accomplishments, even ranking #1 in the nation for a good chunk of last season. That donor: John Grisham.

That donor: John Grisham.

That kid's name... that kid's name was Richard Nixon.

...and that little boy.... that nobody liked... grew up to be.... Roy Cohn.

John Grisham turned his back on Oxford Mississippi so he can get bent.

The NCAA and major college sports are pimping out kids for free and they still complain about not having enough money.

Pimping? They're offering free educations to lummoxes while the unfortunate students who are only good at math and science have to hold down a job for the privilege. Sorry Poindexters, shoulda been working on that crossover dribble instead of wasting your time in the library.

Pimping? They're offering free educations to lummoxes while the unfortunate students who are only good at math and science have to hold down a job for the privilege. Sorry Poindexters, shoulda been working on that crossover dribble instead of wasting your time in the library.

I suppose going to Miami University (Edit: or is it University of Miami? I can never remember) in the late 90's early 00's was a *kind* of education.

College sports are ridiculously exploitative for top athletes.

You can blame title IV for favoring one set of non-revenue sports over others strictly by gender. But the reality is that the vast majority of Div. 1 athletic departments have profitable mens foitball and basketball programs, they just divert the excess cash flow to massive salaries for coaches and administrators instead of the university. Limit coach and admin salaries to a max of $200k per year, put strict limits on number of paid coaches, and voilà, there would be plenty of money leftover for both mens and womans non revenue sports.

"You can blame title IV for favoring one set of non-revenue sports over others strictly by gender."

Why blame Title IV? IV? 4? Four? Fore!!!

Title IV
Encouraged the desegregation of public schools and authorized the U.S. Attorney General to file suits to enforce said act.

I'm guessing you have not studied your Roman numerals and meant Title IX:

Title IX
No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance...

My favorite is this one:

Title XXI
The summation of the values of the card with 10 pips or a face card, such as a jack, queen or king and any one of the four aces in the deck; or the cumulative total value of the pips on various cards making the best hand other than a black-jack.

California drops baseball program

For some reason, I read this headline as "California drops penal baseball program" and I thought, "But where will Rick Vaughn play next year?"

Why blame Title IV? IV? 4? Four? Fore!!!

it's been marked down because of the economy

As much as I enjoy watching, college baseball doesn't make a lot of sense.

College sports as a popular entertainment option don't make a ton of sense, really. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two mainstream college sports (football, men's basketball) are the ones in which there's no established minor league, and in which high school players are all but forced to go to college if they want to play professionally.

I enjoy college sports, but I've always got in the back of my mind how ridiculous it all is. Bob's right up in post 45 - it's pretty clear the NCAA, NFL, and NBA have a relationship in which they all benefit immensely from forcing athletes to go to college. The NFL and NBA get a free player development system and the NCAA gets inexpensive labor. The minor league system in baseball and Junior A hockey are too well-established for either of those sports to break into mainstream acceptance, IMO. There's just not enough talent going to college.

Miami University (Edit: or is it University of Miami? I can never remember)

Miami University is the one in Ohio. The University of Miami is the one in Florida.

How many scholarships do they offer for future chemists and engineers and physicists?

More than 11.67.

Seriously, did you not know people on academic scholarship when you were in school?

Also, don't forget that some of the baseball players might be future chemists, engineers, and physicists. Like me, for instance.

College sports as a popular entertainment option don't make a ton of sense, really. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two mainstream college sports (football, men's basketball) are the ones in which there's no established minor league, and in which high school players are all but forced to go to college if they want to play professionally.

I enjoy college sports, but I've always got in the back of my mind how ridiculous it all is. Bob's right up in post 45 - it's pretty clear the NCAA, NFL, and NBA have a relationship in which they all benefit immensely from forcing athletes to go to college. The NFL and NBA get a free player development system and the NCAA gets inexpensive labor. The minor league system in baseball and Junior A hockey are too well-established for either of those sports to break into mainstream acceptance, IMO. There's just not enough talent going to college.

Ever try and explain the appeal of college sports to people from outside the United States? They look at you like you've got two heads on, then immediately dismiss it as the dumbest idea ever.

I'm not saying I want college sports to go away, but it is completely crazy that 90,000 people in some areas of the country watch students, many of whom are barely students, play sports. It's not entirely unique to America - Oxford and Cambridge have annual boat races and a rugby match, and many of those students are indeed "students" - but it's close.

It's probably the same as every other public university in that they probably have 3 times as many Deans and higher admins and many times more money spent on capital projects than they did 20 years ago.

I remember when a my old man and a bunch of grad students took over the administration building at our state university. The higher ups were locked out for three days, so they just hung out at the coffee shop across the street, and nothing really changed. If you want to talk about "wasting taxpayer money" this is probably the best example.

I enjoy college sports, but I've always got in the back of my mind how ridiculous it all is. Bob's right up in post 45 - it's pretty clear the NCAA, NFL, and NBA have a relationship in which they all benefit immensely from forcing athletes to go to college. The NFL and NBA get a free player development system and the NCAA gets inexpensive labor. The minor league system in baseball and Junior A hockey are too well-established for either of those sports to break into mainstream acceptance, IMO. There's just not enough talent going to college.

True enough. But you should go watch, for example, DIII basketball. It's entertaining, the small crowd of mostly college students, faculty and staff are really into it. And there are often no media timeouts. That is what college sports should be. Not as talent rich, but high end amateur.


It's probably the same as every other public university in that they probably have 3 times as many Deans and higher admins and many times more money spent on capital projects than they did 20 years ago.

Not just public unis. On the off chance that I'm not as anonymous as I feel, I shall refrain from further comment.

If you want to talk about "wasting taxpayer money" this is probably the best example.

No, it isn't the best example (cough) never ending wars in Iraq & Afghanistan (cough). That's not to say there isn't plenty of money wasted at public universities, but I would think the amount is insignificant compared to what the Department of Defense burns through.

I suppose going to Miami University (Edit: or is it University of Miami? I can never remember) in the late 90's early 00's was a *kind* of education.

The University of Miami's education stats and graduation rates are great for top shelf D-I athletics. They've worked their tails off to make them that way; versus, say, Florida or Florida State. Nothing to apologize for.

I suppose going to Miami University (Edit: or is it University of Miami? I can never remember)

Miami University is in Oxford, Ohio, and has probably produced more HoF football coaches than its Florida counterpart.

Flynn, college football is huge in all parts of the country besides the NE.

How many scholarships do they offer for future chemists and engineers and physicists?

More than 11.67.

Football has 85, I'd like to see a chemistry department with 85 undergrads on scholarship. Even the academic scholarships that are offered to real students aren't the full free rides that the neckless goons get for their foolishness, and in my experience are paid for by specific private endowments rather than general funds.

Seriously, did you not know people on academic scholarship when you were in school?

Sure I did. And on football scholarships too. If you knew a couple of each, you'd know who was getting the sweeter deal, and who was more numerous on-campus. There may well have been a dozen students on physics scholarships at each of the two universities I attended as an undergrad, three per class sounds about right.

Also, don't forget that some of the baseball players might be future chemists, engineers, and physicists.

I hope they get those chemistry, engineering, and physics scholarships that they deserve, and still have some time left over to play baseball or any other frivolous game in their free time. I knew several engineering students who were into LARPing.

I've written this before, but...basketball and football both started out as schoolboy sports; it wasn't until several decades later the NFL and NBA were formed. Baseball was a professional sport from the start -- well, it was amateur in the very early days, before 1871 -- so college ball never had much of a chance to catch the public's fancy. Plus, the basketball and football seasons are compatible with the school year (hockey, too), but baseball season isn't.

Still, it's ridiculous that huge American universities suddenly decide they can't afford to field baseball teams. Baseball! National pasttime! Hello? Is it really that hard?

Sometimes the operation of the Athletic Department becomes so odious...

As another Cal grad who never went to a baseball game (my loss) and paid money to go to football games, it is understandable they made the decision.
In a world where cities underestimate costs of what they build and then say they need to raise taxes or they will have to lay off police and firefighters, it's easy to consider it a fundraising ploy. However, their chance of recruiting any top freshmen just went out with the announcement. So if I were a big donor, I would hesitate to pump money into a sport that won't bring in too much to brag about.

I'm a Cal alum. This sucks.

I'm guessing you have not studied your Roman numerals and meant Title IX:

Sadly I have studied them and meant title IX. Or I have some subconscious racist agenda that I won't be fully aware of until some Freudian quack pulls it out of me in therapy.

I'm not enough of an expert on basketball or football to judge the subtleties of quality. But it seems to me that if you plopped a D-League team or a UFL team into a college schedule, they'd be a top 10 team if not a national champion. They're older, bigger, more experienced and most are on the verge of breaking into the show. Only a top college program is going to have a handful of players ready for the pros. Everybody else might have one potential pro.

Yet the D-League and the UFL are punchlines to fans and they play to small crowds. The college teams play to huge crowds and charge huge ticket prices all because of "tradition". So college fans are buying something called "atmosphere" that has nothing to do with quality of play on the field.

That's why the quality argument never made any sense with respect to upstart rival leagues. Sure the USFL and the XFL were not as good as the NFL. But the public buys college football whose quality is significantly below any outlaw pro league.

For some reason, I read this headline as "California drops penal baseball program" and I thought, "But where will Rick Vaughn play next year?"

He's the Rays' spokesman.

"In a world where cities underestimate costs of what they build and then say they need to raise taxes or [they will have to lay off police and firefighters, it's easy to consider it a fundraising ploy."

Presuming you still live in California, I assume you know how exceedingly well cops and firefighters are paid here. It's absolutely French. A typical firefighter in California is on the clock 10 days a month and gets paid overtime for his last 2 days. He gets overtime to sleep on the job. When there is a wildfire, he and his buddies go on a long road trip and get overtime the entire time they are gone. Typical pre-overtime salaries are $90,000 for a Firefighter II, which generally takes 4 years on the job to arrive at. That's not too bad for a 24 or 25 year old guy who did not have any college debts. With overtime, he can make another $30,000 a year. (That overtime number will be much, much higher once he makes captain. One in five firefighters are captains in a typical department.) Additionally, that firefighter can very often cash in his full medical benefit. Where I live, that's $18,200 more per year.

Most firefighters will retire around age 50 and take home a pension worth 90% of their final salary. So if one becomes an officer late in his career, he will have a pension starting (and then adjusted up for inflation) around $10,000 per month. He will also get a very luxurious medical plan paid for by taxpayers for the rest of his life. In Present Value, the taxpayer funding for his pension and his other post-retirement benefits are worth another $45,000 per year.

There are other expenses for a city to employ a firefighter. In all it typically costs around $200,000 - $240,000 a year. That's for an employee who is working roughly 80 hours a month -- keep in mind that most cities have almost no fires -- except when he is getting his 15 days of paid holidays (double time) and his 20 days of paid vacation.

And you wonder why most cities* and counties in California, as well as our state itself, are insolvent or on their way to bankruptcy?

----------
*Another facet of having such powerful public employee unions running your government -- many California cities employ 33% more firefighters than they need to. It's perfectly safe to staff 3 ff's to a company (i.e., a fire truck). However, cities with very powerful unions usually put 4 on a truck, so that in the extremely rare chance -- say 1 in 100,000 -- that they have a fire which needs 2 firefighters to make entry into a burning building and they need 2 outside and there is no other company available to back the first arriving company up, they will be covered. To protect against this contingency, cities like my own employ 133% of the force they need.

Football has 85, I'd like to see a chemistry department with 85 undergrads on scholarship.

I think we're taking turns rather than conversing. I was speaking to the issue of a major college dropping baseball, for presumably economic reasons. You were speaking to the overall idea that college basketball and football are hopelessly money-driven and lost from the roots and purposes of intercollegiate athletics. I don't disagree. I was just talking about something else.

My baseball experience, from the sound of your comments, would piss you off less than the football shenanigans to which you were exposed. Very few full rides, most guys could have actually gained admittance if not for their athletic skill, people played for the fun and limited glory of representing their school. IMHO, much closer to the student-athlete ideal, as I would assume is true for all of the non-TV sports.

"I assume you know how exceedingly well cops and firefighters are paid here."

There is one more huge dip into the taxpayers' pockets being made every day by our good friends, the firefighters. They very often will get 6-figure cashouts handed to them the day they retire for vacations and sick time not used. When James Carter of the San Jose FD was given $483,489, this abuse made news. (I don't blame Mr. Carter, btw. I blame the pro-union politicians who take thousands of dollars of union money and then give back millions of dollars of taxpayer money to the unionized workers; and of course I blame the voters who elect such corrupt politicians.)

Another abuse I forgot to mention above: union firefighters generally are paid to not be at work at all, but instead to be doing union business. This is known as a union bank wage. So when the union has a conference in Vegas, they send reps who are being paid their full salaries and benefits by their agencies. Or when the union members are going door-to-door handing out brochures advocating for their favorite candidates, the taxpayers are paying the firefighters full pay and benefits. Another reason why California is in serious trouble.

"When there is a wildfire, he and his buddies go on a long road trip and get overtime the entire time they are gone."

I'm not a firefighter, and I don't personally know any, but this strikes me as being an awfully cavalier way to describe what is surely a terrifying, exhausting, and terribly difficult job. Perhaps the fact that firefighters saved my home in the Oakland Hills fire of '91 has affected my opinion and perverted my logic.

To get back to the topic, though, this also means that Cal's enormously popular summer youth baseball program will now also go the way of the dodo. Shameful all around.

I'm not a firefighter, and I don't personally know any, but this strikes me as being an awfully cavalier way to describe what is surely a terrifying, exhausting, and terribly difficult job.

Nobody advocates paying Army infantrymen and Marine riflemen $120,000 a year in salary and benefits.

I think we're taking turns rather than conversing. I was speaking to the issue of a major college dropping baseball, for presumably economic reasons. You were speaking to the overall idea that college basketball and football are hopelessly money-driven and lost from the roots and purposes of intercollegiate athletics. I don't disagree. I was just talking about something else.

I'm sorry, but in my defense, I did go to a state college in Mississippi.

I'm in favor of eliminating all college sports scholarships and major sports programs. Make all sports intramural and let the universities get back to their ostensible roles of education. I wouldn't be entirely opposed to allowing professional teams sponsor a school's team but university funds have no business subsidizing enormous sports programs and special dispensations to "student"-athletes. Eliminating sports scholarships would be an enormous blow to faculty who teach remedial coursework but this is the burden they will have to shoulder.

"I'm not a firefighter, and I don't personally know any, but this strikes me as being an awfully cavalier way to describe what is surely a terrifying, exhausting, and terribly difficult job."

Fighting fires can be very dangerous. It's just not what they do for roughly 95% of their actual work. Mostly firefighters assist ambulances in medical calls most of their time out of the station.

Obviously, in some departments, where they have a lot of hills, dry brush, very old homes and so on, there are far greater dangers to fighting fires. But the firefighters in Malibu or Orange County or other places with rough terrain are not the only ones costing taxpayers $200,000 per year and more.

Further, in most cases when the CDF calls in outside agencies to help in fighting a wild fire, the outside crews (making overtime pay) are not put in the riskiest places*, because they don't know the terrain. They are largely doing safe work, while the CDF pilots and low-paid CDF ground crews plus the home firefighters jeopardize themselves.

*A retired local firefighter explained this to me a few years ago. He said that "a hundred times or more" his crew was dispatched long-distance to help fight wildfires in the state. He said it was a great time and it paid very well and "only a few times" did he actually do any firefighting on these trips. He said the local grass fires and fires on farms that we often get outside of our community in the summer are normally far tougher work for his former agency.

I assume you know how exceedingly well cops and firefighters are paid here.

It seems that the salaries that cops make is actually not easy to come by. I know there are many sites that report the average salary/starting salary but when you know someone starting out from the academy the numbers are not even close. The news here just reported that a couple of cops got docked pay grades and were now making close to $110,000 annually but those numbers again don't match up when you go and look at the pay grades in question.

"It seems that the salaries that cops make is actually not easy to come by."

For whatever city or other agency you are interested in, you can make a public records request and by law it must be fulfilled in 10 business days (2 weeks). If your question regards your city, send an email to your city clerk. If you are requesting information from your county, call your District Attorney's office and ask to whom a PRR should be directed. any citiizen can do this. You don't have to be a journalist or have any other official position to have your PRR fulfilled.

If you do file a PRR for police pay, I would ask 8 basic questions, which should be easily be transmitted to you on a spreadsheet from their finance records:

For all of the city's sworn police officers, I would like to know this data for the calendar year 2009:

1. How much each officer was paid in regular salary for 2009;
2. How much each was paid in special duty pay, such as motorcycle or K-9 duty;
3. How much each was paid in overtime by the city*;
4. How many days each was paid for vacation time or holidays not worked or jury duty or other periods of time not in service to the people of our city;
5. How much it cost the city for other allowances, such as gun, uniform, hat, badge, etc.
6. How much it cost the city for health care, dental care, vision care and other similar benefits for each officer and any dependents covered by the city's medical plans**;
7. How much the city contributed to each officer's pension; and
8. How much it cost the city for all other employment expenses, such as Medicare, unemployment insurance, worker's compensation, life insurance.

I would also inquire as to how many hours each sworn officer was on the clock in your city in 2009. When you add up everything 1-8, you can then know the hourly cost of each sworn officer.

Generally, cops make about 75% as much as firefighters, depending on how lenient the city is with overtime. Also, police departments tend to be much less top-heavy, with a smaller percentage of cops in executive positions. That said, when I have hung out in my police department's headquarters doing research, I've noticed a lot of brass just hanging around doing nothing all day--almost as if they were firefighters.

*Some cities will contract out their cops for overtime to private businesses, which then repay the cities. If that happens in your town, you need to subtract that amount out from each cop's overtime pay when figuring how much each guy costs the taxpayers.

**Whatever number is given here, double it. That will account for the PV of the unfunded future liability for post-retirement medical coverage.

I never get why firefighters are called for emergency calls.

Nobody advocates paying Army infantrymen and Marine riflemen $120,000 a year in salary and benefits.

It's kind of like that helmet cam video that's been getting passed around - the dude changing the light bulb on top of the TV tower. Those guys make supposedly squat - 30-50k generally - for the nutty things they're doing.

I recall a NatGeo show on those antenna workers (an episode World's Toughest Jobs or Fixes or something - I don't watch enough of those shows to keep them straight) that mentioned the fatality rate is extremely high, too.

I recall a NatGeo show on those antenna workers (an episode World's Toughest Jobs or Fixes or something - I don't watch enough of those shows to keep them straight) that mentioned the fatality rate is extremely high, too.

I can't imagine going to work everyday at a job where I know there is a very real risk of instant death yet the mortal risks I'm taking isn't keeping anyone else alive.

Also, why the hell does that antenna tower guy not rope himself to the tower? I can't imagine how strong the winds up there are

Ever try and explain the appeal of college sports to people from outside the United States? They look at you like you've got two heads on, then immediately dismiss it as the dumbest idea ever.

Yeah, but European colleges are the dullest places on Earth. I work literally 100 yards from one, and it has no school spirit or presence in the community at all. It's hard to tell if school's even in session.

Ever try and explain the appeal of college sports to people from outside the United States? They look at you like you've got two heads on, then immediately dismiss it as the dumbest idea ever.

maybe, but then there's this. can't see anyone doing that at a lakers game.

Yeah, but European colleges are the dullest places on Earth. I work literally 100 yards from one, and it has no school spirit or presence in the community at all. It's hard to tell if school's even in session.

I prefer this (I went to one). I'm proud of my school, but nothing will ever make me give a crap about my fellow students playing rugby or cricket. I root for Notre Dame football, but really the experience is no different than rooting for the 49ers (right down to the faded glory and managerial incompetence!); they're like a pro team.

And school wasn't dull at all...for one thing, in a European college students of all years can mix together, because they're all legally able to drink. :-)

"I never get why firefighters are called for emergency (medical) calls."

There are three reasons (but not all apply to all agencies):

1. There are often too few ambulances at the ready. The reason for that is in most counties, the county (or a joint powers authority) makes an exclusive contract with a private ambulance service to cover all of its cities and unincorporated areas. For a low-bid, the ambulance company will put in place as few ambulances as they can get away with. As such, it is very often the case that fire trucks are just closer to the calls and can arrive faster;

2. All California professional firefighters are trained as Emergency Medical Technicians. So if they get to a medical emergency before an ambulance arrives, they can treat the patient. The ambulance will have on board a more skilled Paramedic, who will take over care once he or she gets to the call. At that point, other than when there are multiple people in need of medical care, the fire trucks will leave the scene and the ambulance will transport the patient to the hospital; and

3. Answering medical calls makes it look like the fire companies are doing something all day long to justify their very high pay, pension and other benefits.

In some counties, the ambulance service is entirely within fire departments, so they don't send fire trucks to medical calls. But those who send full fire trucks to medical emergencies do so because they need to have their firefighters fully ready to respond to a fire or other emergency at all times. So they can't send out a pair of firefighters without all of their gear.

So college fans are buying something called "atmosphere" that has nothing to do with quality of play on the field.

That's why the quality argument never made any sense with respect to upstart rival leagues. Sure the USFL and the XFL were not as good as the NFL. But the public buys college football whose quality is significantly below any outlaw pro league.

To pile on, why people like, or prefer college football to the pros, or outlaw pro leagues. For starters, many, not all, are alumni, so there is a social and emotional connection to the school, and thus the product. Pre-Giants v. Colts at Yankee Stadium, college football was much more popular than pro football in most corners of the country. For decades, it was boxing, baseball, horse racing, and college football.

Secondly, I think folks may want to evaluate the 'quality' of the product in a vaccuum. Labor pool size(scarcity) and additional maturity (age) of labor are all obvious examples of why the 'average' pro team is 'better' than a collegiate team. The labor pool itself has a randomness to it. Curt Warner, Tom Brady, Jake Delhomme, total donkeys and unmentionable in the college game, yet these are 'studs' in the NFL. ###### Correll Buckhalter has managed a 9 year career in the NFL, he was a POS at Nebraska. Flip side, we could list all-time college greats that were worthless or never played in the pros. (Ron Dayne, Tommie Frazier)

What those who don't 'understand college sports' are discounting is the appetite of the football consumer. I much prefer to watch on TV or in person any D-I college football game to any pro game for a myriad of reasons. Much more diversity of offensive schemes, defensive schmes, the marching bands, the college towns themselves, the identities of the schools, the girls, the soul of the event. Plus it is played on a Saturday, a day much more tailor made for debauchery and late night fun than Sunday.

The NFL bores many of us to tears for a ton of reasons, and the 'perceived' quality of the game being played has nothing to do with it.