Of course it's a parody, but it's also what you'd likely hear out of most any owner if you'd only slip him a truth pill. Just substitute "casual" for "stupid" and take out the derogatory language and you'll read this sort of logic a hundred times a year.

See, I prefer to think that Larry knows something that us Yankee fans have known for a long time.

Almost all Sox fans are "stupid," that's why they are Sox fans. ;-)

All Red Sox fans are like Doris Kearns Goodwin. They are all well educated, with a baseball erudition which is lacking in baseball managers and are experts in 20/20 hindsight. Ask people like Goodwin, they knew Branca should never have pitched to Bobby Thomson, Pedro should have been pulled in Game 7 and that Torrez should have been pulled when Bucky Dent fouled the ball off his foot.

I don't laugh at anything or anyone associated with a team that's seven games ahead of the Yanks. Wait'll they're down to do that. It's the American Way.

Like that wink at the end is gonna help, Sean. You're a fanist.


I'm a Sox fan and have been one since 1975. My father was a Sox fan. His was too. It's bad enough you make fun of me for keeping a kicker, but how dare you impugn my family.

Do I do this with Yankee fans? Do I?

Baseball for the thinking fan, indeed.

Did Marty Barrett run over your dog when you were a kid?

Look, if you're won of those people who think that most people are stupid, then there's a lot of stupid fans of all teams. I'm just as sick of the pinkhats and bandwagoneers as anyone else.

I'm sorry Sean, I assume your joking, but this is my red flag issue. What the hell am I supposed to do, drop the Red Sox and become a Rockies fan? Am I supposed to do that? Well, am I?


The only way I do that is if I move to Colorado, and Boston happens to fall into the sea.

And it's not just you, SM, Dial ticks me off with this too. I'm just working on little sleep today and you happened to catch my eye.

It works for the Mets.

Stupider like a fox!

What the hell am I supposed to do, drop the Red Sox and become a Rockies fan?

That is a healthy start, but you are going to have to do much more than that to atone for your sins.

Dial ticks me off with this too.

Hey! I cut WAY back and added your disclaimer since you thusly informed me.

I am glad to see The Onion use Lucchino as a character, but I think a parody of HIM would have been cooler.

I'm sorry Sean, I assume your joking, but this is my red flag issue. What the hell am I supposed to do, drop the Red Sox and become a Rockies fan? Am I supposed to do that? Well, am I?

I am completely joking... the Sox and Yanks probably have the same ratio of "good" fans to meatheads.

Although, you'd probably look great in black and purple if you're looking to make the switch.

By the way - you're up soon.

Roger

The dumbing down of our baseball culture is not restricted to Fenway. The so-called 'Best Fans in Baseball' that pack Busch Stadium each night are no exception. Far too often people cheer louder for between inning jumbotron gimmicks than they do for the game itself. Stupid people are more susceptible to marketing (stadium commercials) and like this article points out they have no problem paying obscene prices for crappy beer, food and merchandise.

This is all fine and good for the bottom line as long as the team is winning, but as soon as things go sour and the ballpark is no longer such a chic place to hang out, those casual fans will find somewhere else to drop their cash.

The dumbing down of our baseball culture is not restricted to Fenway.

That is assuming baseball culture was ever "smart" to begin with.

There were no golden days in which the stands were filled with those who were there because they were brimming with a love for baseball.

The dumbing down of our baseball culture is not restricted to Fenway.

That is assuming baseball culture was ever "smart" to begin with.

There were no golden days in which the stands were filled with those who were there because they were brimming with a love for baseball.

No, but at least there used to be a section in each park that was informally reserved for gamblers, who didn't need that jumbotron to tell them what was going on. Those guys would have been a modern day stathead's wet dream, since he could have used his superior knowledge of percentages to make out like a bandit betting on the outcome of each and every pitch.

Andy, back in the old days, didn't you have to pretty much be in the "sporting crowd" to go to games? Most games were day games and the working stiffs like me would rarley get a chance to go.

Andy, back in the old days, didn't you have to pretty much be in the "sporting crowd" to go to games? Most games were day games and the working stiffs like me would rarley get a chance to go.

That's true, but the handful of sharks among them sure didn't need to work. One of my all-time heroes was a guy I knew from a series of DC area pool rooms, who was born in 1913 and died in 2001. In between, he bought a big house in Silver Spring, was married for over 60 years to the same woman, put 4 kids through college, never had an enemy in his life that I could tell, never stiffed anyone on a bet---and never "worked" a day in his life. You can do pretty well on the right side of that 52.7%.

He spent his 21st birthday in jail in Milwaukee, and a year in jail in Washington in the 50's when he was busted by mistake at his boss's apartment and wouldn't rat. (That story I heard from an old-timer at the Washington Post who knew him long before I did.) And all during the 40's and 50's, whenever the Nats were at home, he and his entire coterie used to sit in front of the old upper deck press box in Griffith Stadium, making odds on the outcome of literally every pitch. And when baseball left in 1971 he made a good living from football, basketball and just about anything else where people had an opinion. He was known as "Dr. Hemingway" to his phone customers (and of course he only used pay phones), but to everyone else he was simply Mickey, or Peaches. One of the greatest people I've ever known, and he had his counterparts in every Major League park.

That is assuming baseball culture was ever "smart" to begin with.

There were no golden days in which the stands were filled with those who were there because they were brimming with a love for baseball.

I can only speak for St Louis, and I can tell you that it did used to be that way here and but things have been steadily going downhill since the McGwire juicefest era.

I can only speak for St Louis, and I can tell you that it did used to be that way here

When were these golden years in St. Louis? Certainly not in the early 90's.

. He was known as "Dr. Hemingway" to his phone customers (and of course he only used pay phones), but to everyone else he was simply Mickey, or Peaches. One of the greatest people I've ever known, and he had his counterparts in every Major League park.

That is a great story about Peaches, but for every "Golden" bookie at the park, there is at least one ####### bookie.

No, but at least there used to be a section in each park that was informally reserved for gamblers, who didn't need that jumbotron to tell them what was going on.

That wasn't necessarily always a good thing -- in fact, many times it was a very bad thing.

One point about "stupid fans." Attendance is a lot higher than it has ever been, even adjusting for population etc. I am reading the new BPro book about pennant races. In the article about the 1959 race, Jaffe writes a lot about the LA-Mil playoff--there were just over 18,000 there for Game 1. Yes, it was a Monday, and it was chilly/rainy, and yes, the Braves, who had won the '57 and '58 pennants, were considered a huge disappointment that year when they tied the Dodgers, but still.

So, it seems unlikely that all these "new" fans are intense lovers of the game. Those folks were there all along.

No, but at least there used to be a section in each park that was informally reserved for gamblers, who didn't need that jumbotron to tell them what was going on. Those guys would have been a modern day stathead's wet dream, since he could have used his superior knowledge of percentages to make out like a bandit betting on the outcome of each and every pitch.

This reminds me of a little semi-baseball novel called The Celebrant. It's an earlier era than your firend's, but there are a few passages describing the wagering on nearly every pitch that probably would have worked pretty well for Mickey. You've probably sold a few copies over the years.

What the hell am I supposed to do, drop the Red Sox and become a Rockies fan? Am I supposed to do that? Well, am I?

The only way I do that is if I move to Colorado, and Boston happens to fall into the sea.

I'm pretty sure that you were joking, too, but global warming will soon confront many fans with this very dilemma.

He was known as "Dr. Hemingway" to his phone customers (and of course he only used pay phones), but to everyone else he was simply Mickey, or Peaches. One of the greatest people I've ever known, and he had his counterparts in every Major League park.

That is a great story about Peaches, but for every "Golden" bookie at the park, there is at least one ####### bookie.

No question about that. But an informed consumer is usually less likely to give those bookies their action. Bad reputations are pretty tough to shake, and on the local level most of the jerkoffs don't last for long. Mickey stuck around doing his thing for over 60 years, and there's a lesson in that simple fact.

No, but at least there used to be a section in each park that was informally reserved for gamblers, who didn't need that jumbotron to tell them what was going on.

That wasn't necessarily always a good thing -- in fact, many times it was a very bad thing.

Sure, and that's why the first thing you'd see upon entering all of those old parks was a score of big "NO GAMBLING" signs. Not that anyone ever paid any attention to them.

But the point has been made many times, and it was certainly true in Mickey's case, that the bookies have more interest in an honest game than anyone else. If you're on the good side of 11 to 10 a thousand times a week, there's no need to try to stretch those odds. In his case it was like a guaranteed annual income, and a good one, too. And there's a lot more moral corruption in state-run gambling than in the private and unregulated version. It's one of the few times that the libertarian example is the best one. Go after the fixers and the crooks and you'll have 99% of the bookies on your side.

Oh, and thanks for the tip about The Celebrant, Ignoratio. I've actually had a first edition of that novel stashed away for years without ever having read it, but on your advice I've just pulled it off the shelf. I've heard nothing but good things about that book from others as well.

Well now I really hope you enjoy it. I don't want to feel responsible if it disappoints you. Anyway, I thought you'd read everything vaguely baseball-related that had ever been written. Imagine my surprise.

Oh, and thanks for the tip about The Celebrant, Ignoratio. I've actually had a first edition of that novel stashed away for years without ever having read it, but on your advice I've just pulled it off the shelf. I've heard nothing but good things about that book from others as well.

Well, with IE unwilling to go out on a limb I will: It's a brilliant book in almost every regard, and I will be profoundly disapointed if you don't love it.

I'm pretty sure that you were joking, too, but global warming will soon confront many fans with this very dilemma.


They can always move the team to Hartford. I won't be disappointed.

I'm with RB on this one. I just re-read The Celebrant for about the sixth time ... it gets better at every reading. I wouldn't call it a "semi-baseball" novel, except in the sense that it uses baseball to get at discussions of larger issues (assimilation of immigrants, rationalization of American business, advertising, distinction between contests of skill and those of luck, the nature of heroes and of hero-worship). It's very much a baseball novel, maybe the best ever written.

Well, now I'm going to have to read it again myself.

BTW, I called it a "semi-baseball" novel only because I learned a helluva lot more from it about what it must have been like to be a child of immigrant Jews in early 20th century New York than I did about Christy Matthewson.

When were these golden years in St. Louis? Certainly not in the early 90's.

Those would be the Whitey Herzog years in the 1980s.

This all really has more to do with the dumbing down of our culture in general than whether or not fans in previous eras loved baseball more than today's fans. The large institutions that run this country can more easily extract revenue from stupid ignorant people than from intelligent well-informed people. That's really all there is to it.

This all really has more to do with the dumbing down of our culture in general than whether or not fans in previous eras loved baseball more than today's fans. The large institutions that run this country can more easily extract revenue from stupid ignorant people than from intelligent well-informed people. That's really all there is to it.

And the voluntary restraint that used to stop them from doing what they could do to so extract, have disappeared.

I attribute most of the attendance increase to the more appealing parks, both aesthetically and -- most importantly -- in the lack of totally wasted louts inside them today as compared to 20-30 years ago. Not to mention that there are nowhere near as many parks located in rough neighborhoods. People simply venture into the cities more than they did 20-30 years ago and that's kick-started baseball attendance dramatically.

Most parks at most times simply aren't as edgy as they used to be. More people are going to pay more money to enjoy that environment.

Those would be the Whitey Herzog years in the 1980s.

Oh, the years in which Cardinals' fans were so enlighted that they though Willie McGee was a great player.

The 1980's were filled with imbeciles, both on the field, in the dugout, and in the stands, including in St. Louis. The 1980's were also filled with a great deal of empty seats throughout baseball. Throughtout most of the 80's, the Cardinals didn't sniff 3.0 million in attendance, so there were many empty seats in St. Louis also.

This all really has more to do with the dumbing down of our culture in general

The "dumbing down of culture" is an expression that walks hand in hand with nostalgia. Culture in the 80's gave us Three's Company.

The large institutions that run this country can more easily extract revenue from stupid ignorant people than from intelligent well-informed people.

Isn't "stupid ingorant" people redundant? "Dumb" people are far less likely to have the type of job that allows them large amounts of entertainment dollars.

"Stupid ignorant" people have not caused the surge in attendance in baseball. While many of the casual fans are by no means baseball savvy, they are not "culturally dumbed down" because baseball is relatively new to them. Sure, these people can sometimes be annoying at a ballgame, but the altenrative in the 80's were empty seats.

Most parks at most times simply aren't as edgy as they used to be

Exactly --- baseball parks were indeed much edgier then.

Another reason for baseball's attendance surge is there has been a large span of labor peace. The last stoppage in 1994 retarded the rapid attendance growth that baseball was beginning to experience.

I am completely joking... the Sox and Yanks probably have the same ratio of "good" fans to meatheads.

Hey! That's hitting below the belt. Comparing people to Yankee fans is way out of line. Not even Nazis deserve that.

I just re-read The Celebrant for about the sixth time ... it gets better at every reading.

I always like to see a reference to The Celebrant. I haven't read it nearly as many times as this, but I agree that it may be the best baseball novel out there.

On a related note, anyone else know Dave Frishberg's song "Matty?" I find it bizarrely captivating.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I see a lot of people dumber than me who make a lot more money than me. And a lot of people dumber than Jon Daly who make a lot more money than he does, and a lot of people dumber than Andy who make a lot more money than he does. And I say that without having any idea what amount of money either of them make.

The only way American culture can have gotten to this point is for the people with the money--the ones pulling the strings--to be awfully stupid. Three's Company compared to a current sitcom is like a half-way decent novel compared to a Pokemon comic book that came in a box of cereal. That's the scariest thing of all, because the fact that such a program was ever made is enough to make me wonder how we got out of the sixties without Mutual Assured Destruction. Maybe we didn't, and this is hell.

Isn't "stupid ingorant [sic]" people redundant?

No. You can be stupid. You can be ignorant. Or you can be both. Ignorance is lacking knowledge. Stupidity is lacking intelligence. They are different things. Always have been, always will be.

Maybe we didn't, and this is hell.

Pretty sure there's no baseball in hell.

Hell would have to be a lot worse than this anyway. I'm sure there's no internet there.

Pretty sure there's no baseball in hell.

Obviously not a Cub fan.

And of course there's baseball in Hell. I suspect most of my eternity will be spent reading Plaschke columns. Presumably Plaschke will be in some other section of Hell where he's tortured by DePodesta everytime he gets the formula for VORP wrong.

And of course there's baseball in Hell.

Erik Hinske, Shea Hillenbrand, and Kevin Millar 2B, SS, and CF for my team.

Three's Company compared to a current sitcom is like a half-way decent novel compared to a Pokemon comic book that came in a box of cereal.

Not really. There has always been bad TV, and always will be. The good TV gets better and better, though.